Players demand puzzles

[loodwig]

I'm Definitely glad I asked. A google requirement is not what I'd call a good role playing experiment.

I was thinking of a puzzle evolving around a golden ratio, but again, it relies on OOC ability to solve puzzles pertaining to math rather than character logic. That said, I assume I'm not asking them to RP their character's intelligence to solve a puzzle, but rather try to actually solve a puzzle that will allow the quest to proceed (or not, and take some form of penalty). After all, no one in the party is a Wizard, so counting on them to have an in-character insight to pattern recognition may be asking much.

The players have stated that they've solved puzzles that pertain to the fibonacci sequence, as well as riddles and plays on words (so that's what I was more aiming towards). They said they'd love something that they'd have to spend an entire session just thinking on, musing over, testing things, and possibly getting stumped throughout the process.

What do you guys think of puzzles that deal with mathematical logic? I could just do a variation of the BG2 puzzle: "A princess is as old as the prince will be when the princess is twice as old as the prince was when the princess' age was half the sum of their present age."

[OldTrees1]

If the players are familiar with the fibonacci sequence(most are) then they should be fine with the golden ratio. Especially since a famous example of the golden ratio is the tiling of the square of the fibonacci sequence (1^2 + 1^2 + 2^2 + 3^3 is a 3x5 rectangle).

Mathmatical logic is another universal puzzle (although it takes some finagling to justify being in a dungeon). However eventually they can get too complex. The Knights and Knaves puzzles are a good example of how they can be too easy, just right, or too difficult.

[DreganHiregard]

Mathematical Puzzles can be a great deal of fun IF the players are the kind to enjoy them. Now since your players specifically asked for Puzzles I think that's a great opportunity.

A lot of people are suggesting Zelda style puzzles, but the problem is most of those are very very sight dependent and require large dungeons so I'd advise using them sparingly.

I firmly agree with the mystery angle, I'm running a mystery for my player right now where they have been the victim of increasingly distressing vandalism. The first night their pig was killed and it's blood spelled out "sinner" across their house wall.

The player did their investigating, searching for as much information as possible and found the pig's head was severed by a sword or axe in one blow by someone large and physically powerful. Other than the players of course only the towns lumberjack or smith had access to a weapon and had the raw brawn to accomplish this. But neither of them knows how to read.

The second night one of them wakes up with rats in his bed, a prank his childhood friend used to play on him. Again searching around their farm they found footsteps in the tall grass, someone small and very agile gathered up the rats and snuck them inside. That definitely couldn't have been either suspect they had. And other than the party halfling only a few of the villiage children were so small and nimble.

They had two crimes that seemed connected, but couldn't have been committed by the same people. And then finally on the third night a different player was found naked on their farmland digging a giant holy symbol into the mud, with no memory of how and why. The party realized that THEY were being controlled into committing these crimes. And since only one member of their party hadn't been affected yet they had a good idea who was going to be targeted next.

A good mystery should slowly add more and more clues, each time giving them a chance to change their minds about who it could be, and then ideally Also giving them clues as to what will happen next. But critically important is: Have a backup plan. If your players can't solve a mystery there needs to be another resolution that feels organic. In my example these events unfold on a certain timeline. If after the first night they figured the sword wielding fighter had been charmed they could have acted sooner, but if they hadn't caught the player in the field the third night they'd be even more baffled, but either way after the fourth night the mystery and the dynamic of the puzzles, changes.

[aleucard]

Mathematical Puzzles can be a great deal of fun IF the players are the kind to enjoy them. Now since your players specifically asked for Puzzles I think that's a great opportunity.

A lot of people are suggesting Zelda style puzzles, but the problem is most of those are very very sight dependent and require large dungeons so I'd advise using them sparingly.

I firmly agree with the mystery angle, I'm running a mystery for my player right now where they have been the victim of increasingly distressing vandalism. The first night their pig was killed and it's blood spelled out "sinner" across their house wall.

The player did their investigating, searching for as much information as possible and found the pig's head was severed by a sword or axe in one blow by someone large and physically powerful. Other than the players of course only the towns lumberjack or smith had access to a weapon and had the raw brawn to accomplish this. But neither of them knows how to read.

The second night one of them wakes up with rats in his bed, a prank his childhood friend used to play on him. Again searching around their farm they found footsteps in the tall grass, someone small and very agile gathered up the rats and snuck them inside. That definitely couldn't have been either suspect they had. And other than the party halfling only a few of the villiage children were so small and nimble.

They had two crimes that seemed connected, but couldn't have been committed by the same people. And then finally on the third night a different player was found naked on their farmland digging a giant holy symbol into the mud, with no memory of how and why. The party realized that THEY were being controlled into committing these crimes. And since only one member of their party hadn't been affected yet they had a good idea who was going to be targeted next.

A good mystery should slowly add more and more clues, each time giving them a chance to change their minds about who it could be, and then ideally Also giving them clues as to what will happen next. But critically important is: Have a backup plan. If your players can't solve a mystery there needs to be another resolution that feels organic. In my example these events unfold on a certain timeline. If after the first night they figured the sword wielding fighter had been charmed they could have acted sooner, but if they hadn't caught the player in the field the third night they'd be even more baffled, but either way after the fourth night the mystery and the dynamic of the puzzles, changes.

For emulating the 2D Zelda puzzles, all you should need is a whiteboard and a detailed DM map of the room and its mechanics. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of work for that second one and making sure you didn't miss any key details is going to put the first just a step under it, but such is the nature of being DM. The fact that they can be slotted in at any point where the place's architect can be expected to be a paranoid bellend (or just a bellend, some of these are MEAN) is a bonus.

Another point that I feel needs to be addressed; time limits. For a particularly meaty puzzle, one that is on a time limit is one that can VERY easily become indistinguishable from one that's supposed to be either forced-loss or a "Guess the DM's Thoughts" game. Don't put the players on the clock unless if there's multiple equally correct answers to it that the players can deploy as their panicked thoughts dictate.

[DreganHiregard]

For emulating the 2D Zelda puzzles, all you should need is a whiteboard and a detailed DM map of the room and its mechanics. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of work for that second one and making sure you didn't miss any key details is going to put the first just a step under it, but such is the nature of being DM. The fact that they can be slotted in at any point where the place's architect can be expected to be a paranoid bellend (or just a bellend, some of these are MEAN) is a bonus.

Another point that I feel needs to be addressed; time limits. For a particularly meaty puzzle, one that is on a time limit is one that can VERY easily become indistinguishable from one that's supposed to be either forced-loss or a "Guess the DM's Thoughts" game. Don't put the players on the clock unless if there's multiple equally correct answers to it that the players can deploy as their panicked thoughts dictate.

Quite right, heh honestly I kinda ruled out the whiteboard thing for my games based on my own ineptitude at drawing, but for a normal DM that would definitely work. And yeah, I'd agree with time limits on Puzzles. That's one of the big differences I suppose between a puzzle and a mystery. Nobody likes being rushed when they're trying to solve a rubix cube with a single correct answer. But in a case of gathering intel, thinking outside the box, and discovering new clues having timed events can be very important. Oh! and that reminds me, you mentioned multiple equally correct answers. I'd also recommend,in general if the players get an answer that could have been correct, even if it wasn't the one you picked, see if you can change the answer to match their pick. We can all agree there's nothing worse than getting the right answer only to be told it's the wrong right answer, and I would even recommend designing some puzzles or mysteries with a few possible answers.

[Almagesto]

...given the setting, how can I introduce puzzles in a more organic way, or how have you (other DM's) done the same?

Random episode of CSI. Substitute cell phones with message spells and the lab technicians with crazy gnomes. That should do the trick.

[Nibbens]

Simple code breaking like letter and number (or symbol) substitution. 1=A, 2=B and so on. Drop hints and have a word/number clue. After players figure out the puzzle (which shouldn't be too time consuming for simple number work (symbols take longer)) drop various letters in the dungeon giving hints about the boss or whatever - so players had to solve a puzzle and use what they learned from figuring it out to get clues about beating a bigger threat down the road. It really tickles a players brain when they discover a formula and they have to use it to save their hides a couple times.

It doesn't matter that the puzzle is not hard in this case, because the act of transcribing the letters lead to valuable info that saves their lives - the players feel like solving the puzzle important to their survival, and they "beat it".

[loodwig]

For emulating the 2D Zelda puzzles, all you should need is a whiteboard and a detailed DM map of the room and its mechanics.

I basically do this with puzzles now.

Another point that I feel needs to be addressed; time limits. For a particularly meaty puzzle, one that is on a time limit is one that can VERY easily become indistinguishable from one that's supposed to be either forced-loss or a "Guess the DM's Thoughts" game.

I think time limits can be used in the sense of game, but they should only be used to simulate a sense of reality. I'll warn the party if they're taking "game time" to solve a problem, debate a solution, etc. The remote temple that has a cryptic puzzle to permit entry has waited years undisturbed and will wait another hour. By comparison, if you're trying to figure out the lock in someone's house, sooner or later he's going to notice you're in there. Nothing should be "critical fail" of course.

I'd also recommend,in general if the players get an answer that could have been correct, even if it wasn't the one you picked, see if you can change the answer to match their pick. We can all agree there's nothing worse than getting the right answer only to be told it's the wrong right answer, and I would even recommend designing some puzzles or mysteries with a few possible answers.

I tend to reward "out of the box" thinking. When we started out, the party was stranded on an island with a crazy guy who was obsessed with a rock. The rock was, of course, the macguffin of some later plot point, and the crazy person was sort of a solution waiting to happen, but also a danger because he was infected with a serious disease. This played out in the form of the diseased person becoming increasingly erratic and obsessive, but was otherwise not terribly useful to the team. My "plan" was to have the crazy guy get treatment, gain clarity, and then spread the disease to the local town... bringing forth the first major conflict of the campaign. What happened instead is that they straight up murdered the NPC, burned his body and the surrounding area to a cinder, and vicariously saved the lives of the entire village. I then had to scramble to make some new plot in the no longer doomed village, and saved the plague for a later date. When it came up again, they used their first hand knowledge on it to recommend quarantine options, researched a cure via quest, found the origin of the disease, the conspiracy around it, and took the fight to the enemy. Their solution ended up with a lot less dead people and whole chapters of story and drama skipped. It was awesome!

[DreganHiregard]

That sounds like a ton of fun, and definitely the kind of unusual but accidentally useful behavior our great game is famous for. Sounds like you've got things well under way. With players like that I've got no doubt you'll wind up with a lot of good puzzles and a lot of fun watching them solve them.