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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    I'm not sure if it properly fits the theme of "awful concept," but I hate the stupid broken overpowered Warshaper. As a shapeshifter of some sort or another, I can learn quickly (5 levels) to contort my body to gain extended reach, incredible immunities, free ability score and damage boosts that stack with everything, ultra-fast healing... the best warrior class ever.

    Frenzied Berzerker: interesting concept, devastating execution that makes it unplayable.

    Forsaker: same as above, but even more unplayable. At least the FB can be worked into a very forgiving and cautious party. The Forsaker loses class abilities if he stops destroying party wealth.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Gray Guard: "Let's have a class where players don't have have to follow all those silly code of conduct requirements they don't care about anyway and make the paladin something besides a fighter with minimal cleric casting so they can be 'gritty, realistic heroes'."


    ....f*** you Gray Guard. I acknowledge you exist only to curse that very fact. If you want to play a paladin then play a paladin, not his 'morally ambiguous' cousin that is basically PC-viable totally-not-blackguards endorsed by churches that should never endorse them. Paladins are heroes, so act like it.
    Yes, because how dare they not want to play a static hero! How dare they want character development!

    Seriously, don't hate on the gray guard. He's not meant for your everyday, run-of-the-mill paladin, and he's not just an archetype. He's a character, one that develops over time, one that realizes sometimes greater good requires lesser evil.

    He's morally ambiguous because sometimes that's what the situation needs.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    I actually like the Forsaker. The only feature tied to the magic item destruction is its damage reduction, and there are lots of other sources for that, including Vow of Poverty, which every good Forsaker should have. Also, if flaws are allowed, characters can start as Forsakers at level 1.

    Now, for a class I really don't like, I will mention the Solar Channeler from the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde. The easiest entry is with a level 6 Cleric. It loses three caster levels, and its titular feature allows you to spend a Turn Undead attempt to turn into a Solar for up to one minute per attempt.

    While in Solar form you gain a fly speed and the ability to fight in melee almost as well as if you had cast Divine Power. In exchange you temporarily lose access to all of your magic items and the ability to cast spells.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Ya know, I've spent most of the last day thinking about this on and off but I just can't really think of any PrC's whose concepts strike me as inherently lame. Lots and lots of terrible execution on concepts but no really lame concepts.
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Every PRC that has an alignment restriction while not being directly linked to a specific planar being of that alignment.
    This. This and spells with alignment tags that don't actively use aligned energy. Why is Mindrape [Evil]? It can [very very easily] be used for Neutral and even Good things! It doesn't involve channeling Evil energy or summoning or calling inherently Evil creatures. It's not even inherently unusable for Good things, like Eternity of Torture. Why is it Evil? Is it the name? Because I can change the name with a single Ctrl+H in MS Word and suddenly BAMF. It's no longer Evil.

    I also have a beef with other types of prereqs, especially racial ones. Unless a feat, PrC, or other option explicitly improves upon a specific racial feature (such as weretouched master, as an example), there is never a time when racial prereqs are good ideas. Arcane archer? Why? Shadowcraft mage? Why? Dwarven defender? Why? Able Learner and chameleon? Why? Not a single one of those deals with anything racial beyond stereotypes.
    Last edited by Rubik; 2014-11-06 at 10:53 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Ya know, I've spent most of the last day thinking about this on and off but I just can't really think of any PrC's whose concepts strike me as inherently lame. Lots and lots of terrible execution on concepts but no really lame concepts.
    That's actually a good point. At the least, even the bad classes are trying to do something cool. They often fail miserably, but they had good ideas.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    This. This and spells with alignment tags that don't actively use aligned energy. Why is Mindrape [Evil]? It can [very very easily] be used for Neutral and even Good things! It doesn't involve channeling Evil energy or summoning or calling inherently Evil creatures. It's not even inherently unusable for Good things, like Eternity of Torture. Why is it Evil? Is it the name? Because I can change the name with a single Ctrl+H in MS Word and suddenly BAMF. It's no longer Evil.
    Mindrape being [Evil]? Probably because it involves forcibly altering a fundamental part of a person's personality. And they don't even know that it happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    I also have a beef with other types of prereqs, especially racial ones. Unless a feat, PrC, or other option explicitly improves upon a specific racial feature (such as weretouched master, as an example), there is never a time when racial prereqs are good ideas. Arcane archer? Why? Shadowcraft mage? Why? Dwarven defender? Why? Able Learner and chameleon? Why? Not a single one of those deals with anything racial beyond stereotypes.
    Stereotypes yes, but that's part of the flavor of a race. Elves? I got nothing on that really. ScM? Gnomes are the only core race, which is the only thing that can be absolutely assumed in use, that has access to SLAs and their SLAs involve [Illusion] so naturally they'd create a PrC devoted to a magic that they are innately gifted with. Dunno why its related to [Shadow] but it makes sense for them to have a PrC devoted to improving their innate abilities. Dwarven Defender? Even from a mechanical standpoint, Dwarves are the race that's all about being an immovable object against unrelenting force. Well, Core race at least and DD is a Core PrC. Its not going to consider other races that weren't printed at the time.

    Do some of these reasonings rely on Flavor? Yes. But that was the only sure thing about a race that the writers had to work with. They couldn't anticipate all variations and permutations of flavor individual DMs would come up with, so they made PrCs/feats/options that fit the default flavor of a race.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    For me it's when the PrC's fluff presents it as the biggest stereotype of a base class and being better han the base class at their classic schtick.

    ex: Loremaster is a better nose-in-a-book nerd than Wizard.
    Last edited by Hand_of_Vecna; 2014-11-06 at 12:00 PM.

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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9001 View Post
    That's actually a good point. At the least, even the bad classes are trying to do something cool. They often fail miserably, but they had good ideas.
    I kind of disagree. As I said earlier, the idea of an immobile warrior is profoundly stupid, even if you're a dwarf.

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    Mindrape being [Evil]? Probably because it involves forcibly altering a fundamental part of a person's personality. And they don't even know that it happened.
    That's one use. As someone with depression and an anxiety disorder, though, I can say that I'd love to have someone I trusted mindrape that away.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Stereotypes yes, but that's part of the flavor of a race.
    No one is quibbling that. You've established that elven arcane arches and gnome illusionists and dwarven dwarven defenders are flavorful.

    You haven't established why a human arcane archer or nezumi illusionists or Goliath defender isn't flavorful and needs to be prevented.

    Because all you're doing is something that can be applied to any PrC. Humans and Dwarves probably make more thematic ruby knight vindicators than high elves or gnomes, but the devs didn't feel the need to slap a "no gnomes allowed" tag on the class.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    That's one use. As someone with depression and an anxiety disorder, though, I can say that I'd love to have someone I trusted mindrape that away.
    That's the thing though. Its not "Willing only" or "Harmless". It has a Will Save, which means that to resist it, one must overcome a minimum​ DC of 23. Minimum. Not likely on most lower level characters, and by the time that someone is casting this even the devs were aware that the DC was likely to be higher. Also, BOOK OF VILE DARKNESS!

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    No one is quibbling that. You've established that elven arcane arches and gnome illusionists and dwarven dwarven defenders are flavorful.

    You haven't established why a human arcane archer or nezumi illusionists or Goliath defender isn't flavorful and needs to be prevented.

    Because all you're doing is something that can be applied to any PrC. Humans and Dwarves probably make more thematic ruby knight vindicators than high elves or gnomes, but the devs didn't feel the need to slap a "no gnomes allowed" tag on the class.
    Like I said, I got nothing on Arcane Archer. Did you miss my point though, about how the only thing that can be assumed to be in use when writing these books is Core+The Book itself? In core, which is where DD comes from(and for the purpose of this exercise, Core Races is referring to only the PHB ones, not any MM ones) the only race that has anything to do that meshes with Dwarven Defender's shtick about not moving is the Dwarf. In Core+Races of Stone, the Shadowcraft Mage is gnome-only because, from the text as written, Gnomes are innately magical in a way that no other race in those two books are. They can work illusion magic in a way that no other race can, thus the ScM is gnome-only.

    Thematically, nothing in RKV references anything that might be inferred as a racial stereotype. Its only shtick is that they are devoted to Wee-Jas, spiritual strength, and martial prowess. None of those traits are unique to any one race in the PHB which, as ToB doesn't introduce any new races, are the only races that can be assumed to be in use.

    Give me a class not listed above that has a racial limitation and I can likely see the reason intended by the devs. Apparently that is rare here. For all the talk of RAW this and RAW that, apparently you guys have lost sight of the fact that the devs have not only RAW to work with, but FAW to work with as well.
    Last edited by torrasque666; 2014-11-06 at 12:23 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Arcane Archer such a great idea fluff wise, but mechanicaly it sucks. First off, who is this class for martial character archers or spellcasters? The class is quite odd about that point. The martial archer can't really make use of the adding spells to the arrow ability without lots of levels in a spellcasting class. And a spellcaster does not get much from the class other then adding spells to arrows, but they have the huge drawback of not being able to hit anything as they have low BaBs and no archery feats.

    Now the plus arrows and adding spells to arrows is a good start, but then the class just kinda sputters out. The seeker, phase, hail and death arrows are kinda ''ok'' abilities....but each is only once a day. Sure shooting an arrow through an adamaintimum wall once a day is ok, but what about the rest of the day? And the death arrow ability is a very low powered ability. Considering you won't get the death arrow until at least 16th level, a DC of 20 is a bit pointless for foes of that level.
    I think the purpose is "Casters that decide they want to go martial."


    Frankly - I think it's a problem inherent to the whole prestige class system. They're supposed to be about tradeoffs. Unfortunately, because they're not something always taken into account at character creation, it emphasizes just how much you have to give up in order to gain the benefits. The Arcane Archer is a D8, Full BAB class. Unfortunately, Prerequisites are also a killer to the concept, because they force you to split your tradeoffs - You can only enter a PrC after you prove you don't need to.

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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    That's the thing though. Its not "Willing only" or "Harmless". It has a Will Save, which means that to resist it, one must overcome a minimum​ DC of 23. Minimum. Not likely on most lower level characters, and by the time that someone is casting this even the devs were aware that the DC was likely to be higher. Also, BOOK OF VILE DARKNESS!
    And?

    Just because it can be used offensively doesn't mean it has to be. There's nothing about the spell that makes it inherently Evil; otherwise, we couldn't come up with useful, non-Evil ways of using it. And in this case, doing so is very, very easy. So easy, in fact, that the idea of it having the [Evil] tag (even apart from it not using Evil energy) is actually kinda stupid. Kind of like Deathwatch having the [Evil] tag. There's nothing actually Evil about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    Like I said, I got nothing on Arcane Archer. Did you miss my point though, about how the only thing that can be assumed to be in use when writing these books is Core+The Book itself? In core, which is where DD comes from(and for the purpose of this exercise, Core Races is referring to only the PHB ones, not any MM ones) the only race that has anything to do that meshes with Dwarven Defender's shtick about not moving is the Dwarf. In Core+Races of Stone, the Shadowcraft Mage is gnome-only because, from the text as written, Gnomes are innately magical in a way that no other race in those two books are. They can work illusion magic in a way that no other race can, thus the ScM is gnome-only.
    And yet a human/elven/dwarven/halfling illusionist is just as capable of taking and using shadowcraft mage as a gnome is, apart from the misplaced and useless racial prereq.

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    Thematically, nothing in RKV references anything that might be inferred as a racial stereotype.
    Which is why it (rightly) doesn't have a racial prereq. And neither should any of the ones I mentioned above.

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    Give me a class not listed above that has a racial limitation and I can likely see the reason intended by the devs. Apparently that is rare here. For all the talk of RAW this and RAW that, apparently you guys have lost sight of the fact that the devs have not only RAW to work with, but FAW to work with as well.
    "Intention" doesn't mean "good thing." A lot of intended ideas are really, really bad and serve no useful purpose.

    Look at Reality TV, for instance.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    This. This and spells with alignment tags that don't actively use aligned energy. Why is Mindrape [Evil]? It can [very very easily] be used for Neutral and even Good things! It doesn't involve channeling Evil energy or summoning or calling inherently Evil creatures. It's not even inherently unusable for Good things, like Eternity of Torture. Why is it Evil? Is it the name? Because I can change the name with a single Ctrl+H in MS Word and suddenly BAMF. It's no longer Evil.
    In D&D alignments, the ends don't justify the means. Mindraping BBEG into a generous orphan-lover is still an evil act, because rearranging someone else's mind (in effect, messing around with their soul, which is über-taboo in standard D&D) is an evil act. It's similar to how Avasculate is an [evil] spell that is usable for good (e.g. avasculating BBEG).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    I also have a beef with other types of prereqs, especially racial ones. Unless a feat, PrC, or other option explicitly improves upon a specific racial feature (such as weretouched master, as an example), there is never a time when racial prereqs are good ideas. Arcane archer? Why? Shadowcraft mage? Why? Dwarven defender? Why? Able Learner and chameleon? Why? Not a single one of those deals with anything racial beyond stereotypes.
    To encourage people to play races other than human? Without racial PrCs and sub levels and feats, the only real difference between races would be their base racial traits, which really don't mean much at high levels.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2014-11-06 at 01:04 PM.
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    "Intention" doesn't mean "good thing." A lot of intended ideas are really, really bad and serve no useful purpose.

    Look at Reality TV, for instance.
    Isn't there a saying about intention? Something about asphalt or concrete?
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    And yet a human/elven/dwarven/halfling illusionist is just as capable of taking and using shadowcraft mage as a gnome is, apart from the misplaced and useless racial prereq.
    But a human/elf/dwarf/halfling doesn't have the same innate connection to illusion magic that a gnome does, hence why they cannot take it. A gnome has a connection that the rest simply do not have, and thus are able to explore said connection in a way that other races who do not have that same connection cannot. And before you bring up any other race that may have a similar connection, remember that there are only two sources that can be assumed when writing these books.
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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    To encourage people to play races other than human? Without racial PrCs and sub levels and feats, the only real difference between races would be their base racial traits, which really don't mean much at high levels.
    ...which would indicate a problem with how races are built rather than a problem with how PrCs are built.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    ...which would indicate a problem with how races are built rather than a problem with how PrCs are built.
    I've always liked some races having access to unique PrCs, but this got me thinking. Just how would you make races feel more unique? I usually double racial bonus (not to abilities) to make them more distinct, but they're still irrelevant at high levels.

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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    I've always liked some races having access to unique PrCs, but this got me thinking. Just how would you make races feel more unique? I usually double racial bonus (not to abilities) to make them more distinct, but they're still irrelevant at high levels.
    Scaling racial abilities by level are a good start. Take a look at some of my revised races.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ace-Half-Giant
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Race-Minotaur
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ace-Lizardfolk
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...0r-Race-Kobold
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...20r-Race-Satyr
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...20r-Race-Dwarf
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Race-Shifter

    Notice how they all have a Natural Talent/Inborn Psionics/Natural Magic feature that automatically scales with level, and how they all state they can also be used to power racial feats.

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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Ranger wouldn't give Skirmish progression. Scout wouldn't get full BAB or good Fortitude save. Also, why can't a character just, you know, take track as one of their normal feats to meet the prereq? It's not like we need to make every feat a bonus feat, especially on the Scout, which isn't a hugely feat-starved class. Of course, the full BAB and one-feat tax aren't really worth it, since you trade away more from Scout than you get back from Highland Stalker, and Ranger entry is just as much of a drop down. A swift hunter could do with a two-level dip for Mountain Stride and the +1d6 skirmish, though (this would let them end up with +6d6/+4 instead of +5d6/+5 by 20th level).
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Wilderness Rogue who takes the Track feat says hello.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    I was gonna mention Highland Stalker too, but at one point I realized that the class was intended for PCs that existed prior to the release of Complete Adventurer. If you are a Ranger who wanted to have Skrimish after Skirmish became a thing, but didn't want to lower your BAB too much, Highland Stalker is the class for you to take.
    Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that it would be impossible to take, but that the return upon investment is not worth it at all, especially since it could require multiclassing. Even the first individual I quoted recognizes that the Highland Stalker returns less than you give up by giving up levels of Scout, and the Swift Hunter is a Ranger/Scout already, in order to take the feat.
    That Ranger who wants to get some Skirmish? He'd have to multiclass into Scout (or Rogue) *anyway* in order to take this prestige class.
    That Wilderness Rogue? It can already get Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight as part of its progression.

    I just don't see the gain from this prestige class, when most of what it gives you is "stuff" you need to have to get to it, or "stuff" you will already get anyway - as a Scout or Ranger.

    It's like a recipe that calls for a pot of boiling water, and then tells you to cook water in the boiling water.
    (alternate: It's like a prestige class for a wizard or sorcerer that requires a martial ability and a weapon proficiency, as well as high ranks in a few skills, and in return it gives you an arcane spellcaster's list you already had, and two spells you didn't.)
    Last edited by Denver; 2014-11-06 at 02:08 PM.

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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    But a human/elf/dwarf/halfling doesn't have the same innate connection to illusion magic that a gnome does, hence why they cannot take it.
    But a human/elf/dwarf/halfling can take levels in wizard or sorcerer (!) or psion or cleric or druid just as easily as a gnome. "Being very slightly more magical in a very tiny way" doesn't mean you're barred from being magical. If shadowcraft mage actually specifically worked to improve the gnome's racial abilities, I could see your point. But it doesn't, and so I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    A gnome has a connection that the rest simply do not have, and thus are able to explore said connection in a way that other races who do not have that same connection cannot. And before you bring up any other race that may have a similar connection, remember that there are only two sources that can be assumed when writing these books.
    Then why is the elf's favored class wizard, if gnomes are so much more magical? Why does a human with wizard as his class have wizard as his favored class, if gnomes are so much more magical? Why do gnomes have bard as their favored class, if gnomes are so much more magical?
    Last edited by Rubik; 2014-11-06 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    I like prestige classes to be more rounded and give attack, defense and utility powers. And the powers need to scale with levels and not be too limiting. And powers need to be a mix of mundane and magic. And a lot of powers just make no sense for their level...like death arrow.


    Assassin Again great fluff, but only a little useful crunch. Death attack is ''ok'', but they could sure use more abilities like Impromptu Sneak Attack like the arcane trickster has. Dodge and poison use are ''ok'', but nothing exciting. And hide in plain sight is nice enough, but it comes way, way late at almost 20th level. And the spells are a bit....eh. Well, I do like the idea of a ''spell assassin'', I kinda don't like the ''every single assassin in the world is a spellcaster'' bit. It just does not fit the class. And the assassin is missing a ton of other abilities that could be very useful to an assassin: skill bonuses, supernatural magic defenses like nondetection, some type of advanced disguise ability and maybe most of all: some type of scaling attack ability so they can still assassinate things past 10th level or so.

    Blackguard Again great fluff and idea....and not so much crunch. Detect good, poison, blessing, aura, command, servant and spells are a good start......but then they get little else. Sneak attack is very odd and does not scale well. Getting +1d6 damage at 10th level is just a joke. And '''smite foe'' or some type of more unique ability might have worked so much better. And after 5th level...the class is blank except for a couple of improvements. They just forgot to add anything high level.
    I enjoyed combining Assassin with Dragon Disciple, putting two classes together that were meh on their own.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Yes, because how dare they not want to play a static hero! How dare they want character development!

    Seriously, don't hate on the gray guard. He's not meant for your everyday, run-of-the-mill paladin, and he's not just an archetype. He's a character, one that develops over time, one that realizes sometimes greater good requires lesser evil.

    He's morally ambiguous because sometimes that's what the situation needs.
    Don't play a paladin then. People who become paladins (as in, in setting) and don't fall-FALL are a special breed that take a higher path because the higher path is worth it, even if its risky. If your paladin begins to seriously contemplate that the greater good might require lesser evil then, to be honest, he was never meant to be a paladin in the first place and there's great story advancement in him finding a new path...not in him discovering some type of loophole that will allow him to to pretty much NOT be a paladin while getting to keep the abilities.

    Paladins are plenty capable of character development without going down the tired 'they slip towards evil for the "greater good" ' path which has gotten really, really old. Sometimes just being a hero is what's needed, not figuring how far down the murder-hobo path you can go and still be able to smite evil. Stumble along the path? Make mistakes? Sure, that's fine. There's a bit of a learning curve to figuring out your moral compass and the one that guides you, perfectly understandable. Deliberately subverting it because 'the ends justify the means' is just hoppy-**** though.


    ...Obviously this is a subject I feel very strongly on.
    Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2014-11-06 at 03:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    But a human/elf/dwarf/halfling can take levels in wizard or sorcerer (!) or psion or cleric or druid just as easily as a gnome. "Being very slightly more magical in a very tiny way" doesn't mean you're barred from being magical. If shadowcraft mage actually specifically worked to improve the gnome's racial abilities, I could see your point. But it doesn't, and so I don't.
    You're missing the point. Its a fluff reason. It is purely a fluff reason. But the fluff in the books is all they had to work with. And until you can understand that the fluff was actually an important factor to some of these classes, you will not understand the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    Then why is the elf's favored class wizard, if gnomes are so much more magical? Why does a human with wizard as his class have wizard as his favored class, if gnomes are so much more magical? Why do gnomes have bard as their favored class, if gnomes are so much more magical?
    Because gnomes, while magical, are illusionists/pranksters. That fits the bard archetype better than Wizard. Elves have Wizard as their favored class because they are, as a people, more focused and more importantly, old. They are independent and likely to put the time and effort into the study of the arcane. Gnomes, while long lived, are much more flighty in their pursuits. But if they do put the time and effort into the study, it will likely be into ways to expand their innate talents. Humans have Any as their favored class because they are mutable and able to quickly learn new things(also why they alone qualify for Able Learner and Chameleon)

    Rubik, we're going to disagree. That's just it. But you need to open your eyes to more than just the mechanics of the game and look at the fluff that accompanies the classes and races in the books that define this game. Until you can do so you will not truly understand the game.

    The writers of the books were trying to build a world and craft a story without saying "here's our world. play in it." they left it vague enough that it could be modified, but defined enough to that options were unique. Without uniqueness it is a poor story.
    Last edited by torrasque666; 2014-11-06 at 03:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    But a human/elf/dwarf/halfling can take levels in wizard or sorcerer (!) or psion or cleric or druid just as easily as a gnome. "Being very slightly more magical in a very tiny way" doesn't mean you're barred from being magical. If shadowcraft mage actually specifically worked to improve the gnome's racial abilities, I could see your point. But it doesn't, and so I don't.

    Then why is the elf's favored class wizard, if gnomes are so much more magical? Why does a human with wizard as his class have wizard as his favored class, if gnomes are so much more magical? Why do gnomes have bard as their favored class, if gnomes are so much more magical?
    Keep in mind that gnomes had a special connection with illussions since 1st edition of the game. If 3.5 stayed the way 3.0 was (with Illusionist being the favoured class for the gnome) would you still argue that there is no connection there and there should be no racial requirement for the Shadowcraft mage?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Don't play a paladin then. People who become paladins (as in, in setting) and don't fall-FALL are a special breed that take a higher path because the higher path is worth it, even if its risky. If your paladin begins to seriously contemplate that the greater good might require lesser evil then, to be honest, he was never meant to be a paladin in the first place and there's great story advancement in him finding a new path...not in him discovering some type of loophole that will allow him to to pretty much NOT be a paladin while getting to keep the abilities.

    Paladins are plenty capable of character development without going down the tired 'they slip towards evil for the "greater good" ' path which has gotten really, really old. Sometimes just being a hero is what's needed, not figuring how far down the murder-hobo path you can go and still be able to smite evil.


    ...Obviously this is a subject I feel very strongly on.
    Alternatively, a Grey Guard is about realising that for all D&D has Objective Morality, the best choice isn't always black and white. That ultimately, their personal honour means less than safeguarding the lives of those counting on them; of realising how blind adherence to their code can be used against them, no matter how righteous the code is trying to be. Not someone who resorts to trickery at first chance, but one that understands that sometimes it's better to just slay the dragon while it's sleeping rather than wake it to face honourable combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    You're missing the point. Its a fluff reason. It is purely a fluff reason. But the fluff in the books is all they had to work with. And until you can understand that the fluff was actually an important factor to some of these classes, you will not understand the point.


    Because gnomes, while magical, are illusionists/pranksters. That fits the bard archetype better than Wizard. Elves have Wizard as their favored class because they are, as a people, more focused and more importantly, old. They are independent and likely to put the time and effort into the study of the arcane. Gnomes, while long lived, are much more flighty in their pursuits. But if they do put the time and effort into the study, it will likely be into ways to expand their innate talents. Humans have Any as their favored class because they are mutable and able to quickly learn new things(also why they alone qualify for Able Learner and Chameleon)

    Rubik, we're going to disagree. That's just it. But you need to open your eyes to more than just the mechanics of the game and look at the fluff that accompanies the classes and races in the books that define this game. Until you can do so you will not truly understand the game.

    I think that I agree with both of you. Some prestige classes have what seem like arbitrary racial barriers and it really kills my excitement for them. Runesmith from races of stone seems like it would be really cool on a viking gish. The arbitrariness of the racial fluff on top means that RAW DMs will not make an exception for you. On the other hand, some races should have some niches that only they can do best. Actually, I like the prestige classes that put seemingly mismatching races with core classes. I'd love to see a good dwarven bard based prestige class (drinking tunes?), or a half-orc based sorcery class (magic work dis WAY), or gnome fighting class not based on flipping giants (maybe dancing weapons and mirror imaged dancing weapons: "here! fight my sword).

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    Default Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    You're missing the point. Its a fluff reason. It is purely a fluff reason. But the fluff in the books is all they had to work with. And until you can understand that the fluff was actually an important factor to some of these classes, you will not understand the point.
    If I want my character to be something else, fluff-wise, but use the same mechanics, default fluff is utterly irrelevant.

    Plus, my human character (using his racial feat to attain a sorcerer bloodline based on illusion) is WAY MORE magical than your gnome. But he still can't take shadowcraft mage.

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    Because gnomes, while magical, are illusionists/pranksters. That fits the bard archetype better than Wizard. Elves have Wizard as their favored class because they are, as a people, more focused and more importantly, old. They are independent and likely to put the time and effort into the study of the arcane. Gnomes, while long lived, are much more flighty in their pursuits. But if they do put the time and effort into the study, it will likely be into ways to expand their innate talents. Humans have Any as their favored class because they are mutable and able to quickly learn new things(also why they alone qualify for Able Learner and Chameleon)
    None of which prevents my human from being even better at being a shadowcraft mage than your gnome, or my transmuter warforged from being a better chameleon than your human.

    Mechanics- OR fluff-wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    Rubik, we're going to disagree. That's just it. But you need to open your eyes to more than just the mechanics of the game and look at the fluff that accompanies the classes and races in the books that define this game. Until you can do so you will not truly understand the game.
    Au contraire. You need to open your eyes to the possibilities beyond default fluff. Otherwise, you're stuck seeing the fighter as the "best fighting class" (which it isn't), the monk as "the ultimate martial artist" (which it isn't), and gnomes as "the best shadowcraft mages" (which they aren't).

    Quote Originally Posted by torrasque666 View Post
    The writers of the books were trying to build a world and craft a story without saying "here's our world. play in it." they left it vague enough that it could be modified, but defined enough to that options were unique. Without uniqueness it is a poor story.
    It's not the writers who build the DM's world. It's the DM who builds his world. And its the players who craft the story.

    If there's no legitimate mechanical reason for a restriction to be in place, it shouldn't be there. A writer telling me what kinds of characters I'm allowed to play when he's not involved at my table is just ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Keep in mind that gnomes had a special connection with illussions since 1st edition of the game. If 3.5 stayed the way 3.0 was (with Illusionist being the favoured class for the gnome) would you still argue that there is no connection there and there should be no racial requirement for the Shadowcraft mage?
    Yes. Because my human can be a better illusionist than a 3.0 gnome, if I use my feat to do so. Pointless restrictions are pointless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    If I want my character to be something else, fluff-wise, but use the same mechanics, default fluff is utterly irrelevant.
    'Fluff' is rules text. If you don't want to play by the rules, find your own rules to play by. "Crunch" is merely interpretation of the game rules to translate to dice, tabletops, and numbers for ease of play.

    Plus, my human character (using his racial feat to attain a sorcerer bloodline based on illusion) is WAY MORE magical than your gnome. But he still can't take shadowcraft mage.
    That feat did not exist when the Shadowcraft mage was written. At the time of creation of the Shadowcraft mage, only Gnomes had inherent magic.

    None of which prevents my human from being even better at being a shadowcraft mage than your gnome, or my transmuter warforged from being a better chameleon than your human.
    They have to do it without the class, because they lack the innate power to unlock the potential of those classes.

    Mechanics- OR fluff-wise.
    Fluff is mechanics.

    Au contraire. You need to open your eyes to the possibilities beyond default fluff. Otherwise, you're stuck seeing the fighter as the "best fighting class" (which it isn't), the monk as "the ultimate martial artist" (which it isn't), and gnomes as "the best shadowcraft mages" (which they aren't).
    Gnomes are the best shadowcraft mages because they're the only shadowcraft mages. Fighters were the best at 'fighting' until the Warblade replaced it, but its problem was Fighting was worthless (But nobody else can attain the same mastery over a weapon a fighter can). The monk is the best Martial Artist outside of ToB. But martial arts are actually useless to an adventurer.

    If there's no legitimate mechanical reason for a restriction to be in place, it shouldn't be there. A writer telling me what kinds of characters I'm allowed to play when he's not involved at my table is just ridiculous.
    Then stop playing systems you don't homebrew yourself.

    Yes. Because my human can be a better illusionist than a 3.0 gnome, if I use my feat to do so. Pointless restrictions are pointless.
    A better illusionist, yes, but not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    But a human/elf/dwarf/halfling can take levels in wizard or sorcerer (!) or psion or cleric or druid just as easily as a gnome. "Being very slightly more magical in a very tiny way" doesn't mean you're barred from being magical. If shadowcraft mage actually specifically worked to improve the gnome's racial abilities, I could see your point. But it doesn't, and so I don't.
    The gnome's racial abilities are manifestations of deeper inherent power within a gnome that's required for Shadowcraft mages.

    Then why is the elf's favored class wizard, if gnomes are so much more magical? Why does a human with wizard as his class have wizard as his favored class, if gnomes are so much more magical? Why do gnomes have bard as their favored class, if gnomes are so much more magical?
    Elves love magic. Gnomes are magic. Elves favor a class that doesn't require any actual inherent magic ability, just patience, time, and insufferability. Gnomes don't favor a full-caster class because their culture takes magic for granted (Who needs to learn to study spells when I can cast them as I wish?). Gnomes are gifted dilettantes. Elves are tryhards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    And?

    Just because it can be used offensively doesn't mean it has to be. There's nothing about the spell that makes it inherently Evil; otherwise, we couldn't come up with useful, non-Evil ways of using it. And in this case, doing so is very, very easy. So easy, in fact, that the idea of it having the [Evil] tag (even apart from it not using Evil energy) is actually kinda stupid. Kind of like Deathwatch having the [Evil] tag. There's nothing actually Evil about it.
    No matter what end the spell is used for, Mindrape is indescribably torturous and traumatizing (That the spell can make you forget the torture and trauma doesn't go away).[/quote]You mean nothing about the spell that makes it inherently evil other than the fact that it rapes the victims mind? - The spell's actual effect is so perverse and twisted that only the kinkiest minds can give informed consent (Of course, others certainly can be convinced into giving uninformed consent. Which they regret almost as soon as the spell's cast. Then mostly forget after it's cast, except for the part of their consciousness that's stuck in a state of "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream").

    And yet a human/elven/dwarven/halfling illusionist is just as capable of taking and using shadowcraft mage as a gnome is, apart from the misplaced and useless racial prereq.
    No he's not. He lack the inherent type of magic within gnomes that is required to shadowcraft to the same extent as a Gnome can. Training and nurture can only take you so far - you also need the genetics and nature to enable you.
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-11-06 at 03:45 PM.

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    Post Re: What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

    There are many with poor execution, I'll try to stick with concepts I find lame. Obviously I'm boiling their concepts down in a slightly derisive manner.

    The Fated (Planar Handbook) You believe in the survival of the fittest, so wait for the prophesied one who's really confident and charming.

    Ardent Dilettante (Planar Handbook) Taste all the things!, smell all the things! You enjoy things more than other people and tell them about it.

    Avenging Executioner (Complete Scoundrel) Someone broke your heart or wronged you in same way and you deal with it by becoming a psychopathic murder. Or "What if Batman killed people?"

    Fortune's Friend (Complete Scoundrel) I've always been lucky, and through skill and hard work I'm luckier than ever!

    Survivor (Savage Species) You've been oppressed and enslaved. Want to learn how to fight back? Nope, I didn't think so. Get good at surviving, and get those nasty thoughts of resistance or revenge out of your head.

    Metamind (Expanded Psionics Handbook) Learns how to do low level stuff really well for a few minutes and in the name of unlimited power.
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