RWBY VI: This thread is also a tribute to Monty Oum

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, he isn't. He sent scouts, who didn't immediately attract attention as scouts. (And no, you can't say they did. If they had, there'd have been a lot more going on in the White Fangs little base the minute Ruby was captured toward either bailing out or taking out the rest of the team. And yes, they could have done it if Neo could make Yang such a joke and Chainsaw guy could take Weiss like she was a warm up and Torchwick could take Blake with out her little surprise. You know, exactly what happened or had already happened by that point.

He sent students, below the age of 18 (technically Ruby could qualify at 16, but she's considered a special case) who were not considered experienced enough for this mission when the briefing was just "kill Grimm", let alone "root out terrorist group". It's unknown if Oobleck even knew about the White Fang or if he just realized the best course of action was to remain calm and immediately get to work on the problem. If Oobleck didn't know, that's a major problem with Ozpin's distribution of information. Ozpin gave a speech about how the girls would probably end up there anyway, but if he really tried, he could've stopped them, and if he didn't, there would be a second year team in addition to RWBY in the area.

[Gespenst Ritter]

No, he isn't. He sent scouts, who didn't immediately attract attention as scouts. (And no, you can't say they did. If they had, there'd have been a lot more going on in the White Fangs little base the minute Ruby was captured toward either bailing out or taking out the rest of the team. And yes, they could have done it if Neo could make Yang such a joke and Chainsaw guy could take Weiss like she was a warm up and Torchwick could take Blake with out her little surprise. You know, exactly what happened or had already happened by that point.

And it was infinitely better then the proposed alternative of "Let's launch a massive invasion of that entire area and raise the whole place to the ground!". Particularly in light of the fact that It's reasonable to think Ozpin knows about what happened the last time a really large group of humans tried to take a large area outside the city-states natural defenses, and knows that that tends to make the grim problem worse. And don't say the Grim aren't a threat. We know there are types of Grim that they've never fought, and size category's of grim they've never come close to fighting, and Grim that are intelligent. None of which are present at that last fight scene.

It's only technically better because sending such a large invasion force into an unknown situation is even more foolhardy, and would have left Vale without the Knights it (presumably) needed to help fend off the Grimm attack. However, being better than a bad plan doesn't make the plan good. The problem isn't the idea of sending scouts; that was a good call. The problem is with the scouts he sent: four first-year students and a coffee-addict. You can't say that officially-trained, professional scouting Huntsmen would have stood out more than the students, since being professionals, it's in their job description to get in and out of situations unnoticed. They would have been able to handle the situation much more efficiently.

Spoiler: Gen Urobochi

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Nothing personal, but I'm inclined not to take your word for it with regards to word of god. Cause I've STILL not been able to verify it from anyone or anywhere except you the last time you told me something about the "god" (Author) who's word you didn't care for. Thus far the only answers I've gotten after months of having to ask around among fans of that work are "I don't know one way or the other on that." and "No, that's not true, who the hell told you that?"

Spoiler: Gen Urobochi

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If you're going to insist on keeping your overly-narrow interpretation of my words about the Titan mangaka, that's your prerogative. But with Urobochi, I took care to provide actual quotations this time, for which a quick Google search on them would provide sources other than me.

But just for you, here's the full thing, said after it became known that Urobuchi was heading the series, despite the studio's attempts to hide it.

"I have been entrusted with the formidable task of series composition and script for all episodes. Although having director Akiyuki Shinbo and Ume Aoki-sensei as teammates puts a great deal of pressure on me, I will do my best to deliver a heartwarming, happy story to our viewers!"

[Math_Mage]

Urobuchi shows up on TV Tropes under Lying Creator for that little gem. It's not exactly a matter of dispute.

Something that's gotten lost in the discussion of how much Ozpin is to blame for what happened is, well, how little actually happened. Yes, it was irresponsible of Ozpin to send RWBY instead of an experienced team, and Ozpin's lucky nothing worse happened. But neither the council nor Ironwood really has any grounds for censure in light of the outcome, unless Ozpin hands them ammunition--and isn't he notoriously close-lipped?

Also, it's a weird day when Gespenst Ritter is, in a roundabout way, arguing for the narrative sensibility of the most recent episode, and Metahuman1 is arguing against it.

And that's gonna likely end up biting him in the back side. How dark a turn that will actually end up being remains to be seen, but it does have room to be the point were all the people screaming for blood and death get what they want. And possibly end up not so glad that they did because the one's who die were some of there personal favorites.

*cough*

We talked about this recently, right?

[Metahuman1]

For everyone arguing about sending team RWBY as the scouts:

As far as sending in unready first years, it's not hard to argue that they were a group made up entirely of prodigy's, so sending them to kill grim that most first years would be unready for till they were second years under the direct supervision of one of his very best huntsmen and with the understanding to the group and the huntsman in charge that the split second he though they weren't ready he was taking the whole team back, no ifs, ands or buts. That's not an utterly unreasonable position to take. It's a school designed to train warriors, who are necessary to defend humanity form extension. And these people, are the Mozart's of that field. And as most people in education know, students need to be challenged if there going to grow and learn. Same goes for martial arts, you need challenge involved in your training to keep you advancing, and if you not getting that your teacher is doing it wrong. So sending them into something too high a level for most at there age by about a year's worth of training isn't inherently unreasonable, more so since it's not like he didn't have the back of Plan of the top tier venerate right there on scene to keep tabs on them and pull there bacon out of the fire the second it started going wrong.


Sending them in as scouts is harder to argue, but as was discussed, they have a plausible deniability in a lot of cases as just being student huntresses on a mission that just happened to be in that general area to cull Grim.

And yes, I'm quite certain Oobleck knew what they were really doing there. I'd be quite sincerely shocked to find out otherwise. More so since Evidently he let Ironwood and Goodwitch know what his "Scouts" were gonna be. BTW, Ironwood would have to have agreed with the plan at the time and pointed a finger at Ozpin and said "He did it" when the wall broke and Ironwood was oh-so-conveniently right there at the time with his invasion force. if that's the case. Unless we assume he's actively a villain in which case for all we know he warned Torchwick and Cinder, but I'm still leaning toward the "He's a pawn blinded by his own insistence he's right." angle.


Landis963: Unfortunately you seem to be in the minority. More so since we've gotten a bit of that here and there and that has only made the people scream for more and worse cause it doesn't count (Read: It's not a thing that's been bugging them for five or six seasons in a show that's had a sum total of 1 season so far.) or there wasn't enough blood involved (Like talking about all the people who died and got hurt in the last few eps of the season instead of rubbing them being dismembered and eaten alive in our faces.)

And since RT is receptive of it's fans wants, I'm worried they'll start wracking up a body count here at some point. Though I'll be curious to see how some people react to having THERE favorite be the among the ones who die. Because more or less every named and even slightly explored character is someone's favorite somewhere, and that person isn't gonna like them being killed off. Sorta like how I've gotta think AoT's fanbase would likely turn on it if out of left field Armin, Mikasa and Levi died.

Sith: Huh. That's, interesting. I'm gonna have to look more into that now.

Ritter: See above, but also remember, the guy your claiming isn't incompetent proposed the worse plan in spite of the reasons both of us have sited for it being a god awful plan, and then when Ozpin made the counter proposal of a plan, a counter proposal you also still don't like, Ironwood was willing to go with it right up till he could turn it against Ozpin to get his original plan.

This does not paint Ironwood as even being equally competent to Ozpin, let alone more competent.

Spoiler: Gen Urobochi

Show

How quick a google search did you have in mind? Cause I'm searching in for "Gen Urobochi Madoka Magica Heartwarming Happy" and I've still not found that specific quote yet. If it's so easy that many of the key words should have put it rather close to the top.

And it's not narrow at all. It's taking him at his word. That's not being narrow minded to take someone at there word. And you didn't confine it at the time to just him, you'd also have be believe the man writing One Piece is also a compulsive liar who can't have his word in interviews taken seriously. With an example to back it up that doesn't even fit the accusation. Sure, if it happened in a different series with totally different rules for super powers it might, but not the way One Piece's world works, that explanation he gave fit's right in. It's like taking issue with the idea that the setting has fruit that can give you unique powers or that there's a way to learn to fight with a long sword in both hands and one in your mouth between your teeth and this can make you a better fighter somehow. That's not a flaw of the setting, that's just a feature.


Though I am finding lots of tid bits about how he tried to keep it kinda ambiguous while still retaining consequences, with a negative tone and implication to consequences. Which is actually so far only reinforcing my position but I'll keep you posted.

Though again, by the standards everyone's holding RWBY too, that was a brilliantly Happy Ending cause the overwhelming majority of the human population survived and the universe stopped being something in it's nature right out of lovecraft. Sure, three people were either dead or erased form ever existing and a 4th was shell shocked probably for life, but since a major complaint I'm seeing on RWBY or Legend of Korra is that people aren't spending enough time being shell shocked for life every time something bad happens or dieing, that's probably a plus by these same peoples standards.

[LaZodiac]

For everyone arguing about sending team RWBY as the scouts:

As far as sending in unready first years, it's not hard to argue that they were a group made up entirely of prodigy's, so sending them to kill grim that most first years would be unready for till they were second years under the direct supervision of one of his very best huntsmen and with the understanding to the group and the huntsman in charge that the split second he though they weren't ready he was taking the whole team back, no ifs, ands or buts. That's not an utterly unreasonable position to take. It's a school designed to train warriors, who are necessary to defend humanity form extension. And these people, are the Mozart's of that field. And as most people in education know, students need to be challenged if there going to grow and learn. Same goes for martial arts, you need challenge involved in your training to keep you advancing, and if you not getting that your teacher is doing it wrong. So sending them into something too high a level for most at there age by about a year's worth of training isn't inherently unreasonable, more so since it's not like he didn't have the back of Plan of the top tier venerate right there on scene to keep tabs on them and pull there bacon out of the fire the second it started going wrong.


Sending them in as scouts is harder to argue, but as was discussed, they have a plausible deniability in a lot of cases as just being student huntresses on a mission that just happened to be in that general area to cull Grim.

And yes, I'm quite certain Oobleck knew what they were really doing there. I'd be quite sincerely shocked to find out otherwise. More so since Evidently he let Ironwood and Goodwitch know what his "Scouts" were gonna be. BTW, Ironwood would have to have agreed with the plan at the time and pointed a finger at Ozpin and said "He did it" when the wall broke and Ironwood was oh-so-conveniently right there at the time with his invasion force. if that's the case. Unless we assume he's actively a villain in which case for all we know he warned Torchwick and Cinder, but I'm still leaning toward the "He's a pawn blinded by his own insistence he's right." angle.


Landis963: Unfortunately you seem to be in the minority. More so since we've gotten a bit of that here and there and that has only made the people scream for more and worse cause it doesn't count (Read: It's not a thing that's been bugging them for five or six seasons in a show that's had a sum total of 1 season so far.) or there wasn't enough blood involved (Like talking about all the people who died and got hurt in the last few eps of the season instead of rubbing them being dismembered and eaten alive in our faces.)

And since RT is receptive of it's fans wants, I'm worried they'll start wracking up a body count here at some point. Though I'll be curious to see how some people react to having THERE favorite be the among the ones who die. Because more or less every named and even slightly explored character is someone's favorite somewhere, and that person isn't gonna like them being killed off. Sorta like how I've gotta think AoT's fanbase would likely turn on it if out of left field Armin, Mikasa and Levi died.

Sith: Huh. That's, interesting. I'm gonna have to look more into that now.

Ritter: See above, but also remember, the guy your claiming isn't incompetent proposed the worse plan in spite of the reasons both of us have sited for it being a god awful plan, and then when Ozpin made the counter proposal of a plan, a counter proposal you also still don't like, Ironwood was willing to go with it right up till he could turn it against Ozpin to get his original plan.

This does not paint Ironwood as even being equally competent to Ozpin, let alone more competent.

Spoiler: Gen Urobochi

Show

How quick a google search did you have in mind? Cause I'm searching in for "Gen Urobochi Madoka Magica Heartwarming Happy" and I've still not found that specific quote yet. If it's so easy that many of the key words should have put it rather close to the top.

And it's not narrow at all. It's taking him at his word. That's not being narrow minded to take someone at there word. And you didn't confine it at the time to just him, you'd also have be believe the man writing One Piece is also a compulsive liar who can't have his word in interviews taken seriously. With an example to back it up that doesn't even fit the accusation. Sure, if it happened in a different series with totally different rules for super powers it might, but not the way One Piece's world works, that explanation he gave fit's right in. It's like taking issue with the idea that the setting has fruit that can give you unique powers or that there's a way to learn to fight with a long sword in both hands and one in your mouth between your teeth and this can make you a better fighter somehow. That's not a flaw of the setting, that's just a feature.


Though I am finding lots of tid bits about how he tried to keep it kinda ambiguous while still retaining consequences, with a negative tone and implication to consequences. Which is actually so far only reinforcing my position but I'll keep you posted.

Though again, by the standards everyone's holding RWBY too, that was a brilliantly Happy Ending cause the overwhelming majority of the human population survived and the universe stopped being something in it's nature right out of lovecraft. Sure, three people were either dead or erased form ever existing and a 4th was shell shocked probably for life, but since a major complaint I'm seeing on RWBY or Legend of Korra is that people aren't spending enough time being shell shocked for life every time something bad happens or dieing, that's probably a plus by these same peoples standards.

Spoiler

Show

A girl became the living embodiment of hope that will always be there for the magical girls always forever in one giant afterlife party. That is overwhelmingly happy of an ending, you realize.

[Math_Mage]

And yes, I'm quite certain Oobleck knew what they were really doing there. I'd be quite sincerely shocked to find out otherwise. More so since Evidently he let Ironwood and Goodwitch know what his "Scouts" were gonna be. BTW, Ironwood would have to have agreed with the plan at the time and pointed a finger at Ozpin and said "He did it" when the wall broke and Ironwood was oh-so-conveniently right there at the time with his invasion force. if that's the case. Unless we assume he's actively a villain in which case for all we know he warned Torchwick and Cinder, but I'm still leaning toward the "He's a pawn blinded by his own insistence he's right." angle.

Ironwood didn't think Ozpin was doing anything. He comments that Ozpin is passive, not that Ozpin is irresponsible. Ozpin doesn't blab about the plan to send RWBY, he keeps his mouth shut. There's no support for the claim that Ironwood knew anything about what RWBY was doing. Oobleck is another story.

Landis963: Unfortunately you seem to be in the minority.

Really? Really?

[Metahuman1]

Ok this was gonna be an edit but since I've had two additional posts to respond to come in I'll just make a new post.


Math: Are you gonna tell me fans of a certain character don't tend to get REALLY pissed off when that character dies? More so if it was just a shock death or to show off how dangerous the situation now is? Or that the night of the premier the people who looked at the RT forums didn't find a majority of commentor's were highly up in arms over the ending and how well that fight went for the Hunters and Huntresses and Robots? The RT forums that the RT staff read which is how things like Expanding Velvet's character happen? Cause that was kinda my point. And heck, we've even got people in this forum who have said they've missed there opportunity to do anything short of character deaths to sell the threat as genuine and serious to the audience and several who would tell you that the defeats they've suffered so far "Aren't enough/don't do it/don't count." or some variation there of.

No, Ironwood didn't think anything short of the full scale invasion of the area actually amounted to doing anything, thus because he was sending in scouts first, Ozpin wasn't doing anything. Hell, I bet if he didn't know about team RWBY going in he just flat went to the counsel and said "They were in Becon, (Leaving out that in so far as he knows they is 1 person.), and he didn't do anything after we found out were they were (Failing to mention that were they were was a broad general area well outside the city and thus it would take time to find them, or that he even sent scouts. ). You have to put me in charge because he's not doing anything and I will!" and then they did based on that account of events.

And I'm not arguing that it wasn't narratively sensible. I'm arguing that it requires the counsel and Ironwood to be easily manipulated idiots that the bad guys are playing as pawns, or require Ironwood to be a bad guy. Ritter seems to be arguing Ironwood is perfectly in the right and totally valid in what he's doing now and that it will be a horrible butt pull when it turns out Ironwood was either a villain or a pawn who got played and a text book example of crappy writing at that point and only at that point. As you yourself mention, there doing this and have no grounds, but because it's Ironwood and right now it's good for Ironwood, Ritter is in favor of it and agreeing with the guy who seems to STILL thinks "Invade the whole area blind and ignore that the last time we tried anything close to that we made the worlds largest tome." was an awesome flawless plan that would have worked brilliantly and fixed all there problems.

I just happen to be calling Ironwood and the counsel on this stuff.





Zodiac:

Spoiler: Madoka.

Show

It was also meant to be at least a little ambiguous. Thus, you don't have to appreciate that in order to still get a generally fairly happy ending that was tinged with/had some sting of tragedy along the way. Which I do appreciate cause it's hard for people to use the show as an example of certain things I'd rather it not be used as an example of.

[Math_Mage]

Math: Are you gonna tell me fans of a certain character don't tend to get REALLY pissed off when that character dies?

No, I'm telling you it's incorrect to talk about "all the people" or "the majority" of anything who are advocating for character death, pursuant to the conversation we had last time the topic of character death came up, where I specifically told you to keep in mind that advocates for character death are few and far between, and you agreed to do so.

No, Ironwood didn't think anything short of the full scale invasion of the area actually amounted to doing anything, thus because he was sending in scouts first, Ozpin wasn't doing anything. Hell, I bet if he didn't know about team RWBY going in he just flat went to the counsel and said "They were in Becon, (Leaving out that in so far as he knows they is 1 person.), and he didn't do anything after we found out were they were (Failing to mention that were they were was a broad general area well outside the city and thus it would take time to find them, or that he even sent scouts. ). You have to put me in charge because he's not doing anything and I will!" and then they did based on that account of events.

First, like I said, there is no support for the claim that Ironwood knew about the scouts.

However, I suppose I can buy that any bad things happening at all could be enough to make the council skittish.

And I'm not arguing that it wasn't narratively sensible. I'm arguing that it requires the counsel and Ironwood to be easily manipulated idiots that the bad guys are playing as pawns, or require Ironwood to be a bad guy. Ritter seems to be arguing Ironwood is perfectly in the right and totally valid in what he's doing now and that it will be a horrible butt pull when it turns out Ironwood was either a villain or a pawn who got played and a text book example of crappy writing at that point and only at that point. As you yourself mention, there doing this and have no grounds, but because it's Ironwood and right now it's good for Ironwood, Ritter is in favor of it and agreeing with the guy who seems to STILL thinks "Invade the whole area blind and ignore that the last time we tried anything close to that we made the worlds largest tome." was an awesome flawless plan that would have worked brilliantly and fixed all there problems.

I just happen to be calling Ironwood and the counsel on this stuff.

First, the analogy between Ironwood's proposal and Mountain Glenn's backstory is horrible.

Second, given that the proposal turned out to be for Ironwood to take some forces and sweep Mountain Glen, I think that was a perfectly fine idea, as far as obstructing Torchwick's plans goes. Not as useful for discovering what Torchwick was actually up to, but that's another story. The writers did a terrible job of describing Ironwood's proposal, because they hadn't covered the relevant setting details--again, another story.

I broadly agree that setting up Ironwood to take the fall hasn't been horribly written so far--it's everything around that that I dislike.

[Gespenst Ritter]

As far as sending in unready first years, it's not hard to argue that they were a group made up entirely of prodigy's, so sending them to kill grim that most first years would be unready for till they were second years under the direct supervision of one of his very best huntsmen and with the understanding to the group and the huntsman in charge that the split second he though they weren't ready he was taking the whole team back, no ifs, ands or buts.

The fact that Team RWBY is a set of prodigies (which is really less of a fact and more of an assumption, since the only student group that we've seen perform below their level is Team CRDL, which consists of one underachiever and three cowards) in no way prevents Ozpin from sending a professionals. Sure, RWBY might be capable of getting the job done right. But why settle for "might" when you can get a guarantee? Were they so starved for professional Huntsmen that Ozpin had no choice but to send students to do that mission?

(Well, maybe they are, given said professionals' complete absence at the Grimm outbreak.)

Same goes for martial arts, you need challenge involved in your training to keep you advancing, and if you not getting that your teacher is doing it wrong. So sending them into something too high a level for most at there age by about a year's worth of training isn't inherently unreasonable, more so since it's not like he didn't have the back of Plan of the top tier venerate right there on scene to keep tabs on them and pull there bacon out of the fire the second it started going wrong.

You don't use a well-known terrorist organization and a threat to national security as an advanced training mission. That's just irresponsible to both the students and the people.

Sending them in as scouts is harder to argue, but as was discussed, they have a plausible deniability in a lot of cases as just being student huntresses on a mission that just happened to be in that general area to cull Grim.

What "plausible deniability?" Who does Ozpin need to deny this to? They're going after known enemies to the people, who are suspected of taking up shop in an uninhabited area, that even used to be part of Ozpin's own country. It's not like the White Fang's hiding in Mistral or Atlas or Vacuo, and Ozpin needs to have some excuse in case his covert ops team is discovered in foreign lands uninvited. He has no reason to need plausible deniability.

And yes, I'm quite certain Oobleck knew what they were really doing there. I'd be quite sincerely shocked to find out otherwise. More so since Evidently he let Ironwood and Goodwitch know what his "Scouts" were gonna be. BTW, Ironwood would have to have agreed with the plan at the time and pointed a finger at Ozpin and said "He did it" when the wall broke and Ironwood was oh-so-conveniently right there at the time with his invasion force. if that's the case. Unless we assume he's actively a villain in which case for all we know he warned Torchwick and Cinder, but I'm still leaning toward the "He's a pawn blinded by his own insistence he's right." angle.

What reason do we have to believe that Ironwood knows what scouts Ozpin selected? The next time we see him, he's musing over Ozpin being so secretive about things. Which wouldn't be the case if Ozpin told him he planned on using Team RWBY.

Ritter: See above, but also remember, the guy your claiming isn't incompetent proposed the worse plan in spite of the reasons both of us have sited for it being a god awful plan, and then when Ozpin made the counter proposal of a plan, a counter proposal you also still don't like, Ironwood was willing to go with it right up till he could turn it against Ozpin to get his original plan.

This does not paint Ironwood as even being equally competent to Ozpin, let alone more competent.

I explained this before. I believe that Ironwood made that suggestion because he was frustrated and stressed about how Ozpin prevented him from taking action before, and the result of that was the attack on the tower. So he's understandably pissed and wants to knock some heads, leading to a poor judgement call. That suggests to me that Ironwood isn't infallible, but it doesn't suggest to me that he's incompetent. Since his procedures before this were very sensible solutions. Ozpin on the other hand, has been messing since Day 1.

Spoiler: Gen Urobochi

Show

How quick a google search did you have in mind? Cause I'm searching in for "Gen Urobochi Madoka Magica Heartwarming Happy" and I've still not found that specific quote yet. If it's so easy that many of the key words should have put it rather close to the top.

And it's not narrow at all. It's taking him at his word. That's not being narrow minded to take someone at there word. And you didn't confine it at the time to just him, you'd also have be believe the man writing One Piece is also a compulsive liar who can't have his word in interviews taken seriously. With an example to back it up that doesn't even fit the accusation. Sure, if it happened in a different series with totally different rules for super powers it might, but not the way One Piece's world works, that explanation he gave fit's right in. It's like taking issue with the idea that the setting has fruit that can give you unique powers or that there's a way to learn to fight with a long sword in both hands and one in your mouth between your teeth and this can make you a better fighter somehow. That's not a flaw of the setting, that's just a feature.

Spoiler: Gen Urobochi

Show

Wut. Why didn't you just Google the quote itself? Then you would have gotten the source of it. Don't disqualify my information just because you're bad at using a search engine.

I say it's a narrow interpretation because when you read my response you zeroed in solely on the words "compulsive liar" and then interpreted it in the most tunnel-visioned way possible. Namely as "someone who never tells the truth ever."

And then when the evidence doesn't fit your narrow definitions, instead of assuming I was mistaken, or used poor wording, or had bad sources, or anything else, you assume that I was deliberately lying to you so I could prove a point.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Worth noting that, well, this being an action series with kids, it only makes sense that the kids wind up sent on the most dangerous mission to infiltrate the Big Bad's base. It's only being Genre-Savvy to send them on their way.

Spoiler: Urobuchi and Madoka, because it's trendy

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I wish I could find the quote, because I recall hearing that RE: the Madoka ending, he was pleased with it because he had finally managed to write a positive ending.

That's not to say that he didn't totally troll people about the tone, because he totally did. But the ending is undeniably happy. It's the achievement of a miracle through complete self-sacrifice. WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE WERE MOVIES I DON'T REMEMBER ANY. Anyhow. The world as it exists in the end of the series is still a pain-filled place, but the cycle of despair no longer exists. Happy endings don't have to mean that everything's perfect.

I definitely agree with LaZodiac--the ending is pretty much an archetypal mahou shoujo move: through the power of love, the lead character defeats the great evil of the world, which is her own fear and despair, and brings hope to every magical girl in history.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't think Ozpin got in trouble for sending in first years, I don't think the council or Ironwood even knew that. I think he got in trouble for 1) **** happened 2) not following Ironwood's suggestion he send in the whole military immediately.

As far as the first years go, I agree with Metahuman that RWBY are prodigies, we may have little direct evidence but the fact that Ruby got in at 15, that they are all performing near Pyrrha's level (and Pyrrha is established as being the best, at least among first years), they all look damn impressive and have impressive backgrounds, and...oh yes, how they've faired against the villains (Take Blake: the partner of the most scary guy in the White Fang, who just pwn'd the guy that perpetrated the worst attacks Vale faced in a generation). Team CFVY's recent performance has suggested Ozpin made a huge mistake in not sending out THEM (though we know they were exhausted since whatever engagement they went on was apparently far more strenuous on them than the finale :-P).

However, even ignoring all the evidence RWBY are prodigies, I think we can reason it out that these are prodigal teams. If they were normal for this world in terms of performance, and professional huntsmen/soldiers are all even better, that 1) wow the White Fang sucks, 2) RWBY would have no place to shine, and 3) the ridiculousness of the overpoweredness is just too mind boggling to comprehend.

In summation: Ozpin and Dumbledore both sent out first years into a ridiculously dire situation, and then got (threatened to be) outsted for a situation a little later they did not mishandle.

[Rawhide]

I haven't read all the posts, just too much walls of texts on topics I'm not all that interested in, sorry. However I did spot this and knew the answer, so...

So I guess they're not doing anymore World of Remnants. Bummer.

There's one more. Bluray exclusive.

[LaZodiac]

I haven't read all the posts, just too much walls of texts on topics I'm not all that interested in, sorry. However I did spot this and knew the answer, so...



There's one more. Bluray exclusive.

Some please document what it is because as much as I do want to detail this series, I'm not shilling out cash for required plot information.

[Reddish Mage]

Some please document what it is because as much as I do want to detail this series, I'm not shilling out cash for required plot information.

I love my 1st season blu-ray, not for the extras (though I went through all of them), but for getting the episodes at the length their meant, without any internet lag or stutter in full 1080P glory.

I wouldn't think you would be missing required plot information. There was nothing in the previous WOR videos that did more than give little pieces of semi-illuminating information (and you know, some foreshadowing). If we get anything close to Start of Darkness like extra plot relevant info I'll personally buy you a copy (that $30 I'm putting aside is feeling very secure tonight).

[LaZodiac]

I love my 1st season blu-ray, not for the extras (though I went through all of them), but for getting the episodes at the length their meant, without any internet lag or stutter in full 1080P glory.

I wouldn't think you would be missing required plot information. There was nothing in the previous WOR videos that did more than give little pieces of semi-illuminating information (and you know, some foreshadowing). If we get anything close to Start of Darkness like extra plot relevant info I'll personally buy you a copy (that $30 I'm putting aside is feeling very secure tonight).

Understandable.

And thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I don't think it'll be THAT plot important either, but as an obsessive person like I am I want to have all the information. It's why **** like "oh hey this random art book for *manga or video game name here* has tons of information we didn't put in the series! Get it to get that stuff" and I'm like "god damnit why would you do this to me these never get translated GIVE ME THE ULTIMANIA GUIDES FOR FINAL FANTASY SO I CAN CONTINUE CATALOGING THEIR BACKGROUND FOR PERSONAL REASONS *grumbles and eats a tin can*

[Reddish Mage]

I'm like "god damnit why would you do this to me these never get translated GIVE ME THE ULTIMANIA GUIDES FOR FINAL FANTASY SO I CAN CONTINUE CATALOGING THEIR BACKGROUND FOR PERSONAL REASONS *grumbles and eats a tin can*

Its times I want to get get Rosetta Stone and learn Japanese. Also, I want to play Final Fantasy VIII.

[Dasgovernator]

I wonder if we will ever actually get to see what Vale's usual 1st line of defense is. Do they have a traditional guarded wall covered by a bunch of mooks with guns? Or do a handful of pro Huntsman just sort of cover the whole thing? The former probably makes more sense, but seeing how trivial the Grimm threat seems to be, the latter might honestly work.

[Durkoala]

I'm Durkoala, and I'm here to rewrite the show and talk about how good the Volume 2 finale was.

Spoiler: V2;E12

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It wasn't.

Spoiler: The Good

Show

Glynda Goodwitch, Beacon’s deputy and a hard taskmistress. So far she’s been a bit flat, and her current story roles have been restraining the more wild personalities around her.

The hard part is that Glynda doesn’t have much of a role in the story. She’s there to give us a little insight into Ozpin’s thoughts and to rescue the heroes. The best individual impact on the plot atm would be to make her a voice for why Huntresses exist, a counter to the ideas in Time to say Goodbye. She should promote the ideal of serving for the greater good, of fighting monsters so that the ordinary people can be safe and happy. As before, she will be a strict taskmistress and believer in hard work. This will be because she thinks that Huntsmen, as the protectors of civilisation, should embody the best of humanities. A huntsman or huntress should not be crude in public, ignorant of common knowledge, have a sloppy appearance or act like keeping the population safe is hard work.

Leading by example, she will do everything she can to be perfect and unruffled by the heat of battle, the stress of teaching or the chaotic personalities surrounding her. As the best “Mage” (what do you call a mage that the creator insists has no magic? A Duster?) in the kingdom, she loves opportunities to take the spotlight and frequently adds unnecessary flourishes and one-liners to her battles, and will only stop doing so when the situation is truly dire.
She’s more of an admin than a true leader, as she hates to go against the rules. Her deference to Ozpin is due to his talent and experience at doing so and not getting caught. She’d be a good leader in the middle of the apocalypse, but in a lazy, secure, prospering city there are too many obstacles for her patience. And she’d likely make it mandatory for all citizens to have some Huntsman training.

Spoiler: The Bad

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Cardin Winchester is a bit of a one-note bully at the moment. As he’s our best bet of gauging the average level of the year (RWBY and some of JNPR are noted to be prodigies), he should get some focus and have some positive characteristics. As he needs to be lazy, bullying, arrogant and vicious, this is not going to be easy.

First, he needs a motivation for why he does things. As Henry Beaufort was part of the royal family (barred from the throne due to being born out of wedlock), Cardin is part of Vale’s royal family. As Vale has a constitutional monarchy (it’s called a kingdom, so it must have had a king at some point. This doesn’t mean that there still is a recognised royal family in canon, but I’m writing this.) there is very little that Cardin can expect in terms of political power and he’s too proud to be ‘a living museum piece’. He chose to become a Huntsman so he could earn respect and strength on his own merits.

He also has a strange relationship with the idea of honour. He wishes he could be one of the knights from the old days when the country was ruled by the king: powerful, unshakable and honourable. However, his awareness and hatred of the current state of affairs lead him to denounce honour as a thing of the past, no longer worth holding onto. Despite this, he still harbours a secret desire to be an honourable person: he would mostly back away from Jaune once Jaune proved himself to be a man of valour – much more so than Cardin.

As things go on, this want for honour would play against his own selfishness. He will often be forced to acknowledge his failings and perform heroic acts as penance for failing, but eventually slip back again. He would have a sort of Unknown Rivalry with Jaune, who would be a source of envy and admiration to him: a person who is everything Cardin would like to be, who acts like a knight in shining armour in spite of hardship. If Jaune were to act in a way that destroys his valour, Cardin would initially cheer, but this would give way to mourning an honourable person and a fury against Jaune for betraying his good qualities.

Of course, he would still be a thug whose first resort is overwhelming power. He would have little respect for those beneath him, and take any opportunity to make his life easier. He is a dangerous adversary due to being good at finding advantages and having no hesitation to use them, no matter how low they are.

Spoiler: The Ugly

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I’m not sure who Russel Thrush is based on, so I’ll just make things up as I feel like. Russell is going to be a foil to Cardin, somebody who cares not for high morals and who takes the pragmatic/easy route when he can. He’s spent time on the streets and knows how to move fast in offence and to get out when things turn sour.
Russell is mostly concerned with short-term gain, but in time he may develop a fixation on a long-term goal as Cardin struggles with his better nature. What that will be, I don’t know yet, as I’m not sure what role I want CRDL to play in the future.

His fighting style will be much the same as what we’ve seen: rapid rushes at the enemy, retreating when the tide turns and taking any opportunity to attack. His weapons are still those two daggers. The Dust contained in them can be used to buff Russell in a number of ways, and by running the blades against each other he can fire bolts of Dust. As things progressed, he would have to move away from this self-centred fighting method and become part of the team.

He would also be a surprisingly generous person who will give away things that he doesn’t need if asked for them, or for free if he likes you. This doesn’t mean that he won’t steal anything if he wants it and can get away with it, and he often follows Cardin’s lead in bullying.

So, thoughts?

[LaZodiac]

It's an interesting bit of rewriting, and I like the layers you give the characters. It's already loads better then how they're characterized now, and if the entire series had this much effort put into it from the start it'd probably look a lot better.

[Math_Mage]

yay character notes
it's like you're taking monty aside and saying, "once more, with meaning."

if there's anything i'd say...it's a little odd for glynda to be both perfectly cool and audaciously theatrical. how would you integrate those two aspects?

[Durkoala]

Thank you for the compliments.

Unfortunately, it's one thing to have a good concept and another to show that in the show. When I get Jaune finished, I'll touch on ideas for changing the plot in JNPR's notes, which is the next step in this.

yay character notes
it's like you're taking monty aside and saying, "once more, with meaning."

if there's anything i'd say...it's a little odd for glynda to be both perfectly cool and audaciously theatrical. how would you integrate those two aspects?

This version of Glynda is all about doing things the right way. Come to think of it, she's got that in common with D-Cardin: she thinks that the world should work in a certain way, and unlike Cardin, she has decided to try to live up to that ideal.

As far as integrating the showboating and keeping calm goes, she'll just be RWBY taken up to 11. She will act like nothing fazes her (there could be some close-ups to show how she actually feels for a second before she hides it), and cast as dramaticaly as possible for finishers. Establishing that she is hamming it up could be a little tricky, as she hasn't really been challenged so far, and I can't see that changing unless I think up a backstory flashback for the early story. OTOH, the animators have been pretty good at showing style variations, so if I had the fanbase that the current RWBY has, it should be noticed. There's also Ironwood or Ozpin making fun of her for it as an option.

I forgot to say that Russell will also be able to pull off tricks like having a different buff on each hand (eg. Power + Speed= Crash Bandicoot) and mixing different types of Dust in his projectiles. These are probably skills that he will develop over time, instead of starting with them at the first year.

[Metahuman1]

Spoiler: Lenght. Loooooong post.

Show

Sorry, had a busy weekend. House, Renovations, Wiring, not fun.



Math: I didn't agree to that having just checked back the last four pages of discussion between 2 threads. You told me there was only 1 person advocating for it, and I said I was not convinced of that at all cause 1 post above you someone was saying that while he considered it not reasonable for the Grim to kill a character, he thought that was "sad" to use his exact phrase, and 3 posts above you was someone listing of Yang as the obvious person to kill while entertaining the idea that killing could be "Interesting.". I tend to imagine people who like Ruby would disagree. Sorta like how if you walked up to a lot of fans of B-C-D list DC or Marvel characters and asked them how they'd feel about those characters dieing, they'd be against it, as evidenced by the number of people in the last couple of decades who have stopped reading comics precisely because that happened.

Now on to Ironwood. The only way he didn't know there were Scouts is if he's either literally deaf, which he can't be cause we know he's heard other bits of dialog, or if he's outright ignoring every word the comes out of Ozpins mouth as a rule. Ozpin point blank told him "Your a general, who do you send in first, the troops, or the scouts?". Hence, he agreed to sending in scouts first to do little things like, you know, get exact coordinates to send the troops too, maybe get a rouge gauge of how many and how well supplied and equipped and maybe if there lucky how well trained, lay out of the base, what the Grim activity was like cause that's a significant environmental factor. Things you are suppose to make every effort to know before committing troops to battle if you have any business BEING a general in the first place.

So Ironwood had to know there were scouts. You could argue he didn't know it was Team RWBY and not 4-12 Full Huntsman and Huntresses, but the back edge of that particular double edged sword is, if he didn't know, he'd just have to go to the counsel and tell them Ozpin sent in scouts. Meaning, he had no legitimate reason to blame Ozpin, and no Legitimate reason to go to the counsel, and they certainly had no legitimate reason to put him in charge. Because he's complaining at that point that Ozpin used basic logic of "hey, let's see were the target is before we start shooting at it.". It's either that, or, he knew full well Ozpin was sending in Team RWBY, and was either ok with it till it was politically advantageous to be not ok with it, or is bad guy and this is all going according to plan. Either way, he doesn't come out looking good at all.

And no it's not. Mount Glenn was a fairly recent event were large numbers of humans left the natural defenses of the city's and tried to set up shot for a major undertaking. He was proposing going to that same ball park area with a massive number of people for a major undertaking. Here's the thing, large groups of people don't move that fast traditionally (ever hear the expression "He travels fastest who travels alone?" ) and large scale military ops like he's proposing requires setting up and securing bases of operation away form the battle field(s) directly. Mount Glenn was the last time anything close to that was attempted and it got everyone involved killed. Ironwoods plan was suicidally stupid. Particularly if you did it with out and exact location of your enemy and a bit of knowledge of what you'd be up against. Ozpin knew it. Hence, Scouts first, then a more precision strike second. Ironwood didn't want to wait for the scouts or bother with the precision part of precision strike though. Now, it's risky, but you've got a change of winning the day with out everyone involved having to die to do it.



Ritter:

1 person who until this mission had canonically NEVER lost a fight. Ever.
1 person who was so damn good not only was she bumped up 2 years in her training but she was made a team leader and is continuing to excel.
1 person who, despite no academic pedigree, Utterly aced her entrance exams like they were a walk in the park and justifies it as "I'm form outside the kingdom, out there if you can't fight you will die."
1 person who has a flawless academic pedigree and a massive amount of traditional high end coaching form the best personnel money can buy and the best schools money and talent and pedigree can get you into going back quite a ways.

That sounds like a team of prodigies too me. And we've seen Ren, not even Juan, Ren, preform below RWBY's curve, and we've seen Neptune preform below it the one time he got an action scene. Can't forget that after all.

And no, it doesn't prevent Ozpin sending a full team of hunters/huntresses (Though numbers might. Ignoring the lack of Hunters and Huntresses on scene at the attack as I've been over that point, look at how much empty space there is when it's just the actual Becon students taking classes. Tends to imply that not that many people make it too the level required to get in the door, and I'd bet not ALL of them make it all the way through the 4 year course either due to change of heart about career path or due to just not being up to moving past this level at the end of the day. So, that tends to tell me that we don't actually have THAT many of them running about.). It does excuse the official reason the Counsel would have for why a team of first years was there (Hey, there half way through there first year, and this was designed with second years in mind, so I figured I'd bump them up 6 months on there training with a strict control element in the form of one of my very best running the show to test them.). See above for the caveat and it's double edged nature.



He didn't use the terrorists as the training mission. He used the grim as the training mission, on paper and in terms of actually having Oobleck have them actually get a taste of what a routine Huntress mission is like and force them to be a bit more introspective and showing them what consequences of failure in this profession are. On paper, that's all they were doing there. That's all anyone but him, Oobleck, team RWBY and MAYBE Goodwitch and Ironwood knew was happening till Ironwood shot his mouth off cuase he wanted his way instead. Or, That's all anyone other then he, team RWBY and Oobleck knew if he did keep Ironwood in the dark (cause if he kept Ironwood in the dark he almost certainly kept Goodwitch there too.). The scouting for Terrorists wasn't a training mission. See below.



Who does Ozpin need to deny this too? Maybe there's a counsel we don't know much about but they seem to be really really really stupid and prone to wanting to do things like invade entire geographic regions they can't hope to hold just cause some general form another kingdom said they should? Just a thought?

Or, maybe the point was that he knew if a fully trained team of hunters/huntresses got on Torchwicks radar, they wouldn't be allowed to get the Intel they needed, and that there was more to this then Ironwood was seeing cause intelligence and strategy and planning and tactics are not his forte evidently, so he sent in people who Torchwick and whomever torchwick was working for would be inclined to write off as just some nosy kids with weird luck? Who could therefor Deny being here to go after them deliberately if things started going bad and thus have a chance to get away cause there not being taken as seriously as they should be by the bad guys?



Well, for starters, he got the counsel to throw Ozpin to the winds in favor of himself somehow. Either there too stupid to live and did so cause Ozpin took time to learn what direction the target was in before shooting cause Ironwood reported he sent in scouts first, he outright lied and said they did nothing so there too stupid to verify sources of info before acting and he's an even more dishonest disingenuous prick then we've seen so far, or, he knew it was team RWBY, and told the counsel that he sent in first years instead of proper scouts, and thus is being taken seriously even though he's making grave errors in his calculations. Or, evil and manipulating the situation. Those are your list of possible options. Take your pick.



Then he is incompetent to be a general. He is ruled by his emotions. He doesn't think things through before acting if you can goad him just a little. His only solution is to throw troops and vehicles at it and try to talk everyone into replacing troops with mechs and robots and work on a secret project to replace the mechs with better robots. Even when that's neither proper solution or even proper procedure (Scouts THEN invasion force after all.).

To put it another way, take your general assessment of me form the assorted back and fourths we've had on this forum, and ask yourself, would you want someone with my general temperament, according to your view and assessment of it, running a military? If the answer is no, then be aware that that assessment isn't that far off of what Ironwoods actually been doing in canon.

Spoiler: Gen Urobuchi and my so called limited view of Word of God and AoT's creator based on his own words form his own mouth.

Show

Ok, so, first of all, I googled that quote, try again mate, I've got tumblers and blogs written by people who are not the Gen Urobuchi or the interviewer, and I've got a TVtropes listing or two, and nothing else. Entire first page. So, again, I asked, how quick a search did you think I'd need for this quote and it's interview?

Also, this assumes that on the whole a series that ran for 12 eps didn't end on a high note. You've said that I shouldn't judge AoT on weather it's dark or girmdark or not yet because the series isn't over and the ending might lighten the overall tone. Well, Madoka IS over and DID have an ending that even at it's darkest interpretation lightened the tone rather significantly. So, by your proposed logic, no, it doesn't work the way you've insinuated. That or telling me not to judge AoT in such a fashion was a mistake and you withdraw that proposal and concede that I'm perfectly right to judge it as such.


I zero'd in on it cause It WAS your argument at the time. And because you've used that Argument for other series and there creators. Heck, one or two PM's that I can quote if you like right here cause I still have them in my in box you made the claim the same was true of the writer for One Piece to try to prove that your claim still held water far as Titans writer went. You remember, you informed me when Oda was asked how Sanji doesn't get burned up by that leg is super heated/on fire technique of his and he responded that "Because his heart is burning hotter." that that was proof that Oda was also a compulsive liar. As through this wasn't a setting were fruit gives super powers, weather controlling wrist ornaments and weird combo bo staff/tri-sectioned-staff/Escrema sticks and Cybor Canters who have the front half of there wast down extend forward of there torso's to make themselves into centaurs are a thing.

And that's another point, you now want me to consider maybe you misspoke or had a bad source or made a mistake or what not. After trying to bust on me for being "Intellectually Dishonest" for quoting your assessment of Eren that he's a psychopathic Murderer and that's his character and has been since he killed 2 men and pushed Mikasa into killing a 3rd in place of letting them get off Scott free with selling 9 year old Mikasa into sexual slavery for the rest of her life, and accuse me to being a troll and had to have Mods scrub your posts after it came to there attention that you'd done so. You've tried to apply the claim to other authors, usually with a noticeable pattern of people who have done series I thought were good (One Piece and Now Madoka.) and this is the first time you've even put out there for consideration the possibility that "Ok, I was wrong/my source was apparently bad/wait, that came out wrong I phrased that badly let me try again." on this issue. Up till now, you've been defending it.

So up till now, I've been treating you in response to the fact that you've been defending it. Because if we assume it isn't a case of "I messed up" on your end, which up till now you've maintained, and we assume that I have not been able to verify it form a single other soul, and I haven't been able to, what's left is "He's not being straight and narrow with me here.".


Now, if your telling me that you withdraw that argument cause you messed up at the time, I can let it go. But so far that has not happened.

[Math_Mage]

Spoiler: Lenght. Loooooong post.

Show

Math: I didn't agree to that having just checked back the last four pages of discussion between 2 threads. You told me there was only 1 person advocating for it, and I said I was not convinced of that at all cause 1 post above you someone was saying that while he considered it not reasonable for the Grim to kill a character, he thought that was "sad" to use his exact phrase, and 3 posts above you was someone listing of Yang as the obvious person to kill while entertaining the idea that killing could be "Interesting.". I tend to imagine people who like Ruby would disagree. Sorta like how if you walked up to a lot of fans of B-C-D list DC or Marvel characters and asked them how they'd feel about those characters dieing, they'd be against it, as evidenced by the number of people in the last couple of decades who have stopped reading comics precisely because that happened.

Now on to Ironwood. The only way he didn't know there were Scouts is if he's either literally deaf, which he can't be cause we know he's heard other bits of dialog, or if he's outright ignoring every word the comes out of Ozpins mouth as a rule. Ozpin point blank told him "Your a general, who do you send in first, the troops, or the scouts?". Hence, he agreed to sending in scouts first to do little things like, you know, get exact coordinates to send the troops too, maybe get a rouge gauge of how many and how well supplied and equipped and maybe if there lucky how well trained, lay out of the base, what the Grim activity was like cause that's a significant environmental factor. Things you are suppose to make every effort to know before committing troops to battle if you have any business BEING a general in the first place.

So Ironwood had to know there were scouts. You could argue he didn't know it was Team RWBY and not 4-12 Full Huntsman and Huntresses, but the back edge of that particular double edged sword is, if he didn't know, he'd just have to go to the counsel and tell them Ozpin sent in scouts. Meaning, he had no legitimate reason to blame Ozpin, and no Legitimate reason to go to the counsel, and they certainly had no legitimate reason to put him in charge. Because he's complaining at that point that Ozpin used basic logic of "hey, let's see were the target is before we start shooting at it.". It's either that, or, he knew full well Ozpin was sending in Team RWBY, and was either ok with it till it was politically advantageous to be not ok with it, or is bad guy and this is all going according to plan. Either way, he doesn't come out looking good at all.

And no it's not. Mount Glenn was a fairly recent event were large numbers of humans left the natural defenses of the city's and tried to set up shot for a major undertaking. He was proposing going to that same ball park area with a massive number of people for a major undertaking. Here's the thing, large groups of people don't move that fast traditionally (ever hear the expression "He travels fastest who travels alone?" ) and large scale military ops like he's proposing requires setting up and securing bases of operation away form the battle field(s) directly. Mount Glenn was the last time anything close to that was attempted and it got everyone involved killed. Ironwoods plan was suicidally stupid. Particularly if you did it with out and exact location of your enemy and a bit of knowledge of what you'd be up against. Ozpin knew it. Hence, Scouts first, then a more precision strike second. Ironwood didn't want to wait for the scouts or bother with the precision part of precision strike though. Now, it's risky, but you've got a change of winning the day with out everyone involved having to die to do it.

--So, what did you mean when you said "And I'll be keeping that in mind"? Were you planning to keep in mind that because 2 people brought up death in a positive way, instead of 1, that this somehow invalidated everything I said about the majority not viewing death that way? Because if so, that's both wrong and somewhat disingenuous. Otherwise, my previous post stands.

--You are correct that Ironwood knew Ozpin would send scouts. Thanks for the recall. I suppose Ironwood's argument would be that whatever Ozpin did didn't prevent bad things from happening, while Ironwood's approach would have prevented bad things from happening. Hopelessly optimistic about his preventive capabilities, but not evil.

--Colonizing a location is very different from undertaking a military operation in that location when it comes to avoiding a Grimm massacre. For one thing, you aren't planning a permanent settlement; there's no indication that Mountain Glenn fell within a week, which is the sort of time frame necessary for your analogy to hold. For another thing, the people (and robots) there are trained and armed to fight Grimm. For a third, pulling out is logistically far less difficult for Ironwood than for colonizers; the abundance of military-capable transportation necessary to move a large number of soldiers to a location quickly can also remove them from that location quickly, and they aren't leaving as much behind because, again, they aren't setting up permanent living situations. The idea that because Large Population A in Mountain Glenn was eventually attacked and slaughtered, therefore sending Large Military Force B to the same location is suicide, is unsupportable.

[BRC]

--So, what did you mean when you said "And I'll be keeping that in mind"? Were you planning to keep in mind that because 2 people brought up death in a positive way, instead of 1, that this somehow invalidated everything I said about the majority not viewing death that way? Because if so, that's both wrong and somewhat disingenuous. Otherwise, my previous post stands.

--You are correct that Ironwood knew Ozpin would send scouts. Thanks for the recall. I suppose Ironwood's argument would be that whatever Ozpin did didn't prevent bad things from happening, while Ironwood's approach would have prevented bad things from happening. Hopelessly optimistic about his preventive capabilities, but not evil.

--Colonizing a location is very different from undertaking a military operation in that location when it comes to avoiding a Grimm massacre. For one thing, you aren't planning a permanent settlement; there's no indication that Mountain Glenn fell within a week, which is the sort of time frame necessary for your analogy to hold. For another thing, the people (and robots) there are trained and armed to fight Grimm. For a third, pulling out is logistically far less difficult for Ironwood than for colonizers; the abundance of military-capable transportation necessary to move a large number of soldiers to a location quickly can also remove them from that location quickly, and they aren't leaving as much behind because, again, they aren't setting up permanent living situations. The idea that because Large Population A in Mountain Glenn was eventually attacked and slaughtered, therefore sending Large Military Force B to the same location is suicide, is unsupportable.

Mountain Glen had time to build a city (Albeit with lots of unfinished buildings), then abandon that city and build an underground city.

I mean, we've seen Glinda use magic/Dust to repair stuff. Its feasible that they could have people using the same trick for rapid-fire construction, but even then I got the impression that it was a slow fall, not a sudden collapse.

[Metahuman1]

--So, what did you mean when you said "And I'll be keeping that in mind"? Were you planning to keep in mind that because 2 people brought up death in a positive way, instead of 1, that this somehow invalidated everything I said about the majority not viewing death that way? Because if so, that's both wrong and somewhat disingenuous. Otherwise, my previous post stands.

--You are correct that Ironwood knew Ozpin would send scouts. Thanks for the recall. I suppose Ironwood's argument would be that whatever Ozpin did didn't prevent bad things from happening, while Ironwood's approach would have prevented bad things from happening. Hopelessly optimistic about his preventive capabilities, but not evil.

--Colonizing a location is very different from undertaking a military operation in that location when it comes to avoiding a Grimm massacre. For one thing, you aren't planning a permanent settlement; there's no indication that Mountain Glenn fell within a week, which is the sort of time frame necessary for your analogy to hold. For another thing, the people (and robots) there are trained and armed to fight Grimm. For a third, pulling out is logistically far less difficult for Ironwood than for colonizers; the abundance of military-capable transportation necessary to move a large number of soldiers to a location quickly can also remove them from that location quickly, and they aren't leaving as much behind because, again, they aren't setting up permanent living situations. The idea that because Large Population A in Mountain Glenn was eventually attacked and slaughtered, therefore sending Large Military Force B to the same location is suicide, is unsupportable.

For starters, I'd generally not call killing a character I happen to like "positive.". Generally, I'd call it very much the opposite in fact. And I count at least 3 people. Which is sorta my point. Your underselling it. And your not the only one underselling it. I'm not down with that because I actually generally like character development, and for most characters, that ends when the character dies. And for many of the one's who die and don't have there development end, you often wish they had cause what comes next messes it up. (I'm looking at you Barry Allen and Gwen Stacy. And remember, these were characters I LIKED at one time and to a degree, still due with relation to there previous development before they went into being dead.).


Here are Ironwoods possible arguments:

"He sent children to do grown ups job!" (This one ONLY if he knew team RWBY was sent specifically there and specifically for that purpose and not just that he sent them against Grim a matter of months early for there training schedule under supervision of one of the best alive to make sure they got bailed out if they couldn't handle it.)

"He did nothing!" (This if he's actively manipulating the situation to his advantage like a malicious political jerk, or cause he's evil or just so totally blind he has no business being in any leadership position anywhere. )

"He was too slow! He wasted time sending in scouts when I could have just invaded!" (This if he's as I believe is highly possible of the train of though that anything short of an invasion amounts to nothing when trying to solve problems.)

So yes, it's entirely viable right now that he's not evil, he's either just hell bent on his own plans or being manipulated like a sap. Doesn't change that he's Blind, A pawn, or both, unless he's also Evil or Evil in place of one or both of those.



It is still moving a very large amount of people into a Grim infested area with a slow speed (I have explained that it takes a significant amount of time to do large scale military ops.) as they try to find there target and move a hugh number of people. And then to engage the enemy, if they find them with out them seeing them coming a mile away and don't succeed at either hiding or bailing out of the area and regrouping somewhere else later leaving no way to find them till they make there next move. Engaging in grim infested lands against a hate group in which both sides are likely to loose people and that's gonna create a LOT of strong negative emotion which is a Grim Magnet. If the White fang entrance themselves half decently, guess what, the grim are gonna be on you in force before that fight is likely over. End result, at best, you wipe out there base (No assurances there.) and more likely, you both get wiped out, but they didn't commit everything and you did, so now when they move, your hosed. All because you couldn't just keep your forces in the city and think it over better. All because you didn't pay enough attention to your history and to the intellectual side of leading.

[Hawkflight]

So, this isn't anything about RWBY itself, but ... the threat title. Can we get some proper capitalization, please? It should be, "RWBY VI: This Thread Is Also A Gun". It's just ... really bugging me. Please?

[Math_Mage]

For starters, I'd generally not call killing a character I happen to like "positive.". Generally, I'd call it very much the opposite in fact. And I count at least 3 people. Which is sorta my point. Your underselling it.

Leaving aside that the second and third person (who I must assume is Hiro Protagonest) only count because of some weird BS equivalence between hypothesizing and advocating, you're still leaping far beyond that when you start talking about "all the people" and "the majority". If you could just not do that, this wouldn't be an issue.

And your not the only one underselling it. I'm not down with that because I actually generally like character development, and for most characters, that ends when the character dies. And for many of the one's who die and don't have there development end, you often wish they had cause what comes next messes it up. (I'm looking at you Barry Allen and Gwen Stacy. And remember, these were characters I LIKED at one time and to a degree, still due with relation to there previous development before they went into being dead.).

The quantity of character death has zero effect on the degree of character development at the show level, barring endpoint cases. The story is doing other things and developing other characters with the time that would have been devoted to developing <dead character>. So to sell hating character death as liking character development is unsupportable.

Here are Ironwoods possible arguments:

"He sent children to do grown ups job!" (This one ONLY if he knew team RWBY was sent specifically there and specifically for that purpose and not just that he sent them against Grim a matter of months early for there training schedule under supervision of one of the best alive to make sure they got bailed out if they couldn't handle it.)

"He did nothing!" (This if he's actively manipulating the situation to his advantage like a malicious political jerk, or cause he's evil or just so totally blind he has no business being in any leadership position anywhere. )

"He was too slow! He wasted time sending in scouts when I could have just invaded!" (This if he's as I believe is highly possible of the train of though that anything short of an invasion amounts to nothing when trying to solve problems.)

So yes, it's entirely viable right now that he's not evil, he's either just hell bent on his own plans or being manipulated like a sap. Doesn't change that he's Blind, A pawn, or both, unless he's also Evil or Evil in place of one or both of those.

So, a possibility based on an unsupported assumption, a possibility based on an unsupported assumption, and a possibility that's consistent with our knowledge of the character. One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong...

It is still moving a very large amount of people into a Grim infested area with a slow speed (I have explained that it takes a significant amount of time to do large scale military ops.) as they try to find there target and move a hugh number of people. And then to engage the enemy, if they find them with out them seeing them coming a mile away and don't succeed at either hiding or bailing out of the area and regrouping somewhere else later leaving no way to find them till they make there next move. Engaging in grim infested lands against a hate group in which both sides are likely to loose people and that's gonna create a LOT of strong negative emotion which is a Grim Magnet. If the White fang entrance themselves half decently, guess what, the grim are gonna be on you in force before that fight is likely over. End result, at best, you wipe out there base (No assurances there.) and more likely, you both get wiped out, but they didn't commit everything and you did, so now when they move, your hosed. All because you couldn't just keep your forces in the city and think it over better. All because you didn't pay enough attention to your history and to the intellectual side of leading.

Put it this way: if Ironwood's army is so weak and incompetent that it would be overrun with Grimm in the course of completing the mission under discussion, then you don't have to worry about whether Ironwood is a bad guy, because he will be completely useless.

[BRC]

I don't think Ironwood is evil. I don't even think he's being manipulated in the traditional sense, but he is predictable, and is therefore playing into Team Evil's plans in some way.

He and Ozpin are aware of the White Fang, of Roman and Team CNDR's plans. They may not know exactly what's going on, but they know its bad. Roman stealing a kingdom's worth of dust isn't something they could possibly be unaware of.

Ozpin plays things very close to the chest. He's hard to predict, which makes it hard for Team Evil to plot with him around. Sure, he gives them plenty of freedom to work, but he's still got teams of Hunters to drop on them once they show their faces.

That said, from the outside, it looks like Ozpin is sitting there doing nothing while Roman and his cronies run rampant.

Ironwood will be predictable. He will bring in troops and robots, and he will come down like a hammer on any sign of team evil's activity.

With Ozpin, they have no idea what he's up to. With Ironwood in charge, they can easily distract him, probably by keeping a steady stream of White Fang cells within his grasp, enough to keep him focused as he brings the hammer down again and again, letting the Real players plot and scheme in peace.

[Math_Mage]

I don't think Ironwood is evil. I don't even think he's being manipulated in the traditional sense, but he is predictable, and is therefore playing into Team Evil's plans in some way.

He and Ozpin are aware of the White Fang, of Roman and Team CNDR's plans. They may not know exactly what's going on, but they know its bad. Roman stealing a kingdom's worth of dust isn't something they could possibly be unaware of.

Ozpin plays things very close to the chest. He's hard to predict, which makes it hard for Team Evil to plot with him around. Sure, he gives them plenty of freedom to work, but he's still got teams of Hunters to drop on them once they show their faces.

That said, from the outside, it looks like Ozpin is sitting there doing nothing while Roman and his cronies run rampant.

Ironwood will be predictable. He will bring in troops and robots, and he will come down like a hammer on any sign of team evil's activity.

With Ozpin, they have no idea what he's up to. With Ironwood in charge, they can easily distract him, probably by keeping a steady stream of White Fang cells within his grasp, enough to keep him focused as he brings the hammer down again and again, letting the Real players plot and scheme in peace.

And then something something hack the robots mumbo jumbo take over the city yada yada profit

[Mrc.]

I know I'm trying to take a break (I really, really need to sort stuff out) but I thought I'd start a BIG discussion with this.