RWBY VI: This thread is also a tribute to Monty Oum

[Anyr]

Metahuman1: For someone who supposedly hates mass death and destruction, you seem to see it in everything. Whenever anyone says something that might possibly be sort of interpreted as vaguely alluding to death (maybe), you automatically assume that that's the case: Even when the person themselves corrects you. Yet again, LaZodiac (and 95% of the other people you've accused of this) isn't saying anything of the sort. It's all in your head. Barely any of the death-related discussion in these threads is actually about people advocating character death: It's about you accusing people of advocating it.

Please try to understand: The grim reaper you keep attacking is just your own shadow.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, that's all failures, but none of it is lasting. They completely succeed in destroying all the Grim and saving everyone. A few civilians are injured (NOT killed, they specifically said there were no casualties), all damage caused by them to the city is repaired easily, they're ALL killed and Glynda easily seals the hole they came out of. Our heroes came away from this situation going "Man, I hope we get extra credit for this" and that's REALLY stupid considering they all could of died pretty easily, if this show had any idea about how to use threats. Our heroes should at least acknowledge that they where INCREDIBLY lucky to survive this incident completely unscathed, with no civilians dead, and with no lasting Grim prescence in the city. Instead they're cracking jokes like it was that stupid forest test all over again.

You say that Grim have been told time and time again to be super destructive monsters that destroy entire cities if there is one slip up. But nothing bad happened from this. And yes, it played into Cinder's stupid "I planned for this to happen" plan, which really isn't all that interesting to me.

So yes, they did lose against the chainsaw guy, and Neo, and they did fail to stop the train. But none of that matters because they didn't learn from it.

So, you don't care about someone who is actually using strategy? You don't care that someone is actually applying real smarts, and it's working? Cause, this is text book right now what she's doing. She's engineering so that she won't be fighting until after she's already won. That is classic Sun Tzu, or for a more modern named trope, Xanatos Gambit, it doesn't matter what happens, she's worked it out to win either way. Yes, the team could have stopped the train in theory and wrecked the plan, but given the size of the boom when they hit the end of the tunnel, not a stretch to think there were bombs and there still would have been a hole for grim to poor through.

They failed, and Cinder got what she wanted out of the equation, which wasn't the fall of the city. At least, not yet, not from that move. No, this was about adjusting the lining up of the piece's on the board. A thing which now by your own admission you don't care about.

And, cracking jokes while raising the concern that "But it's not properly over!" which was answered with "yes, but, now's a good time to slow down, we won the day, we can win another one." form the person to had to have this drilled into her earlier in the volume? That's a problem? In a show about people model as wuxia fairy tail characters with physics defying powers and weapons, fighting monsters in color coordinated outfits? Huh? Or while again, the chess pieces being manipulated are being shown more clearly then ever before and in the villains very distinct favor? Ignoring for a moment that that is an argument against one of the characters remembering her character growth, that is also an argument for the "No Jokes" policy, cause if you can't have them after action scenes, in an action series, you functionally can't have them at all.

And BTW, wasn't just civi's getting hurt. It was a lot of civilians getting hurt, and a lot of White Fang being killed, not hurt, Killed, in those tunnels. We just didn't have to watch them all get disemboweled on screen for no reason other then gore fest. There still very dead though.

Also, you don't know they didn't learn from it. Come back and check in again with me after volume 3. If they don't change somewhere in there, then you can say they didn't learn form it. More so since, again, they have every reason to think, in character, that Torchwick, the guy they caught, was running the show. And that the White Fang have just been utterly Knee-capped and he's in custody. Thus, yeah, could have gone better, but they did win the final run. Minor concerns about some of Torchwicks thugs not getting caught aside but hey, there just muscle as far as they know, and even then, they were concerned, but also run ragged, so not gonna rip into it right then.






Anyr: Ok, your saying I'm jumping at nothing. And yet, up above, we have Zodic point blank saying that because the consequences were either A) Not Permanent and Forever or B) tied into a villain being smart enough to think a few moves ahead and apply actual strategy and planning that they do not count. Stop and think about that. Those losses do not count. Why? Evidently, because we didn't stop everything for a protracted period afterwords to angst about them for no good in universe reason (Even though depending on how Yangs chat with her savior goes she might be doing just that next volume.), and all the lasting damage revolves around the bad guys plan. And that automatically disqualifies them from counting.

By that logic, it doesn't matter what the bad guys do, it will NEVER count. It will never matter. Unless they stop everything for the rest of the series when not fighting to angst about there loses, and or die form them. Civilians in large numbers get hurt, white fang in sizable numbers get killed? Didn't see it being done on screen (where by necessity we'd have to watch a gore fest.) so it didn't count either. Team looses? Doesn't count cause the badguys plan was important to that.

Why, precisely, am I the one who's wrong and jumping at nothing, for not simply ignoring that and letting it slide as though it was canonical fact when it outright conflicts with canon? For pointing out that for a group who say "Death doesn't need to be the way it's done." a lot of people seem to 1: Jump to that as a go to, 2: Prefer that to other options, 3: Not want to count anything short of it?

[LaZodiac]

So, you don't care about someone who is actually using strategy? You don't care that someone is actually applying real smarts, and it's working? Cause, this is text book right now what she's doing. She's engineering so that she won't be fighting until after she's already won. That is classic Sun Tzu, or for a more modern named trope, Xanatos Gambit, it doesn't matter what happens, she's worked it out to win either way. Yes, the team could have stopped the train in theory and wrecked the plan, but given the size of the boom when they hit the end of the tunnel, not a stretch to think there were bombs and there still would have been a hole for grim to poor through.

They failed, and Cinder got what she wanted out of the equation, which wasn't the fall of the city. At least, not yet, not from that move. No, this was about adjusting the lining up of the piece's on the board. A thing which now by your own admission you don't care about.

And, cracking jokes while raising the concern that "But it's not properly over!" which was answered with "yes, but, now's a good time to slow down, we won the day, we can win another one." form the person to had to have this drilled into her earlier in the volume? That's a problem? In a show about people model as wuxia fairy tail characters with physics defying powers and weapons, fighting monsters in color coordinated outfits? Huh? Or while again, the chess pieces being manipulated are being shown more clearly then ever before and in the villains very distinct favor? Ignoring for a moment that that is an argument against one of the characters remembering her character growth, that is also an argument for the "No Jokes" policy, cause if you can't have them after action scenes, in an action series, you functionally can't have them at all.

And BTW, wasn't just civi's getting hurt. It was a lot of civilians getting hurt, and a lot of White Fang being killed, not hurt, Killed, in those tunnels. We just didn't have to watch them all get disemboweled on screen for no reason other then gore fest. There still very dead though.

Also, you don't know they didn't learn from it. Come back and check in again with me after volume 3. If they don't change somewhere in there, then you can say they didn't learn form it. More so since, again, they have every reason to think, in character, that Torchwick, the guy they caught, was running the show. And that the White Fang have just been utterly Knee-capped and he's in custody. Thus, yeah, could have gone better, but they did win the final run. Minor concerns about some of Torchwicks thugs not getting caught aside but hey, there just muscle as far as they know, and even then, they were concerned, but also run ragged, so not gonna rip into it right then.

I don't have any real interest for Cinder because she's a "vague omniscient super villain". I think that's boring, and I think her plans are all stupid and terrible because they rely on far too much luck. Her plan was to infest the city with Grim, which you continue to say are capable of destroying the entire city. And her plan was for them to stop it. That's not a very smart plan at all, trusting that they'll be able to stop such a powerful, destructive force. It's terrible. I see nothing about the Art of War in what she's doing, just stupid anime bull**** about how "oh she planned for this" whenever ANYTHING happens. You can try to make a villain like Xanatos, but if you can't make him actually charismatic, can't make what he or she says actually MATTER, and can't make his goals clearly knowable, even if his methods are all over the place, then you're not very good at making a Xanatos like villain. I'm not interested in her chessmastering because it's just stupid. Hinging your bets on your plan failing is not good planning.

I'm okay with jokes, it's okay to have some levity or however it's spelt. But what's important is that something REALLY IMPORTANT happened and our characters, from how they're reacting, SEEM like they've learned nothing. They might of, but from how they're responding to it all it's like they didn't. Weiss shouldn't be cracking a joke about extra credit, she should be mulling over the fact that a random mook was not only willing to die to kill her, specifically, but that he almost did. Blake's the paranoid person, she should be at least noting that this is "too easy" a victory, because clearly Cinder intended that because she's such a masterful planner that she can manipulate events like this *gags*. Yang LOST A FIGHT, she should be pretty shook up about it. But none of them are, they're just making a school humor joke because lol school anime joke gotta do it otherwise we're not cliche and stupid. It makes me upset because I know RWBY could be the series it's music implies it is, how people clearly seem to think it's going to be, but it's just turning away from being good at every turn. There is a time for jokes, but sometimes we want introspection, and this was the perfect time for it. Our heroes did fail, but thanks to the timely intervention of heroes who are better then them, it was all fixed without any problems (which is itself an issue).

The White Fang mooks are villains, so them dying doesn't really count for what I was talking about for consequences. A lot of them where likely killed by our heroes by being knocked off the train even! It's not like I want to see them get eviscerated like you said, I just want it to be acknowledged. We still haven't heard not one single word about anyone even HURT during that mech fight, which is still an issue with me.

And no, the chess pieces aren't clear at all. At best we have "Cinder wants to control all the robots" which means...nothing. Why does she want them? The take over the city? Alright, but why? Her motivations are vague and impossible to discern, so her movements are just as vague. Nothing is clearly in her favor because our heroes are clearly able to absolutely slaughter all those Grim, what is an army of robots going to do her? And again, she's just a vague, shadowy, omniscient villain. Nothing she says or does really means anything. She's NOT INTERESTING because she's "clearly so superior in every way in terms of planning" that when she loses without any loss of life or injury to our heroes it's gonna seem bull****, and the entire path leading up to that moment is going to be feel bull**** too.

[Durkoala]

@ Metahuman1: The reason you're being accussed of jumping at nothing is because nobody mentioned death but you. I doubt that LaZodiac, no matter how much critisism she drips on the show, really belives that RWBY dying would have made for a better finale. The trouble is that what's been talked up as an apocalyptic, or at least severely damaging, force or event is beaten in ten minutes, with just about all characters treating it as a party.

What we want is a feeling of this being tough and desperate: such as RWBY initially trying to head off the Grimm, but being unable to kill enough of them or even hold them back from the city. Battered and tired by the last days, they are quickly forced on the defensive; Weiss (she has the least combat experience and uses her aura to attack as well as defend) runs low enough that she's become a liability, and the others are also flagging. They barricade themselves into an abandoned shop and manage to hold their ground, but now the Grimm are flooding out into the city.

Thanks to Ruby's early warning, JNPR arrives on the scene before any other reinforcements. They are also unable to halt the Grimm, but they hold a street while Jaune tries to contact Ruby. Oobleck hauls himself and Zwei out of the tunnel, and starts putting his hijacked Mech to use to try and seal the hole, but the Grimm start to swarm him and he has to fight back before he loses the best chance of sealing the breach.

Goodwitch and Port turn up, but are deadlocked by the sheer number of monsters. They aren't losing, but progress is minimal and more Grimm are getting into the city every second.

Neptune and Sun arrive on the scene, ready to kick some monster hindquarters... and are promptly upstaged by Ironwood's robots dropping from the sky. The Ironbots are spread out to catch the outskirts of the Grimm horde, but a significant number are backing up our heroes. With the numbers now slightly more even, Glynda is able to fight her way to the breach. There's a brief argument with Oobleck to stop him from charging down to give her enough time to seal it, but a unit of robots takes up that task.

The hole is sealed, and the teachers start to wipe out the Grimm around them. Noticing a huge cluster of monsters around a shop, they move in and discover RWBY still kicking heartily.

To win favour for her subordinates, Cinder instructs Mercury and Emerald to take part in the mopping up of the Grimm. CFVY arrive and, seeing that things are mostly under control, lightheartedly mow through the remaining Grimm.

There. That's a much more tense way of doing Episode 2.12, where Rwby is overwhelmed, but nobody dies. Except for some baddies, but nobody cares about them. Civilians are apparently really fast runners, so they're OK.

[LaZodiac]

I wouldn't mind if the hole stayed open but they just sectioned off the city. That aside, what Durkoala suggests is a much better finale then what we got.

[HalfTangible]

Also, you don't know they didn't learn from it.

RWBY celebrates this entire event like it's somehow a huge victory when in reality they lost so royally I'm almost amazed they all still can go back to Beacon at the end. Cinder's plan is unknown, she has an excuse for pretending that everything went as planned for her (even though we know full well that the plan went off too early, if nothing else) but RWBY has lost the chance to even pretend they learned anything.

[Gespenst Ritter]

I'd be more inclined to take Cinder more seriously as a chessmaster if her chessmastering was actually shown beyond congratulating herself and saying "Everything's going according to plan." And on top of that, her demonstrated plans have so many failure points, that if anyone had half a brain in this series, she would have been stopped by now.

[Mrc.]

Spoiler: Point 11

Show

Jaune is 'doing better' because he is a bunch of pixels: as a character in a story, he has fate/the plot bending over for him. Comparing your life to a fictional character is never going to end well, as even Oedipus managed to kill monsters, get even with roadhogs and become a beloved king before it came crashing down on him. Jaune is always going to have the writers at his side; they'll probably push him into rough spots, but they'll always pull him back out again, and as he has superpowers he'll do it in a much cooler way than any of us could.

There's no point in saying that you can't measure up to Son Gohan, physics nerd stuck with the legacy of the greatest warrior ever, slayer of Cell and a terrible superhero. Yes, he has superpowers at the start, but his story is really about people randomly deciding to drag him to places where he can get more superhuman, even though he's pretty useless until he fights Cell, and a lot of the time he survives because the villains decided to target somebody else because the author didn't want the little boy killed off.

In the same way, Jaune will have a force guiding him that will make sure he has it better than many of us, as well as a personal forcefield so the author doesn't have to come up with too many ways to make him avoid death. That's not something any of us can really compete with (tangent on religion not allowed due to forum rules*), so worrying about it is counterproductive to living and not good for your self-esteem.

*although it's probably safe to say that there aren't many religions that grant you a literal forcefield.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, but I'm afraid you misunderstand my point. I won't go into details due to board censorship but the point I was trying to make was not that Jaune himself is doing better than me, more that seeing him reminded me just of what's going wrong and to what extent. It showed me that EVERYONE is doing better than me. Today is worse than yesterday; whether tomorrow will be better I have no idea.

Regarding the whole Metahuman thing, I think that the element of peril that was implied with some of the previous episodes wasn't delivered in the final episode. We have no idea whether we have no idea whether anyone was affected by what happened beyond some mooks being killed. Maybe if they gave an indication of the kids being affected by what they saw (have them mention that something they saw affected them somehow) then we can prove that you can't just hand-wave the trauma that they witnessed. This doesn't have to be done by showing people being decapitated, but if the cost is mentioned at the very least, and the characters show some form of reflection, then people will be a huge amount more satisfied.

[LaZodiac]

I'd be more inclined to take Cinder more seriously as a chessmaster if her chessmastering was actually shown beyond congratulating herself and saying "Everything's going according to plan." And on top of that, her demonstrated plans have so many failure points, that if anyone had half a brain in this series, she would have been stopped by now.

This, 100%. Thank you for saying what I was trying to say in such simple and elegant a way

[Durkoala]

I wouldn't mind if the hole stayed open but they just sectioned off the city. That aside, what Durkoala suggests is a much better finale then what we got.

Stop, you're making me blush. Whether the hole remains open is a big indicator of how dark we're going. If it remains open, it's an admission that the Grimm are too much for the Hunters to handle and it's a public health hazard if somebody crashes their car into it, or is a bit lax with their grenade-shurikan. Sealing is the authority figures being responsible and having the power to do so, and shows that when on it's game humanity can outdo the Grimm handily.

That said, you could combine both ideas so that the Grimm ghetto is created, then pick up the story as Neptune and Sun try to stop Cinder from sabotaging the efforts to seal the place off properly.

[Metahuman1]

So, when they point blank say "We lost a LOT of white fang operatives in that tunnel", which is a turn of phrase you generally reserve for dead, and specifically say "A lot of people got hurt", that doesn't count as confirming huh? Or as mattering cause they were wearing the wrong outfit? (I realize the other implication there was not intended, so I'm not gonna call you on that one as it would be a rather cheap shot and rather nasty to boot.)


Yes, Cinder got control of the robots before anyone other then Ironwood cared about them much. Then, she created a situation, which she is close enough to observe unnoticed, in which Ironwood, and his Robots, are gonna be over near every inch of the city and the festival as security. Robots she controls. Sure, were not precisely sure why, but the what is clear, though it near certainly involves the festival (And explains the interest in Phyrra. After all, if your plan hinged on things made of metal, dealing with someone who controls magnetism should be a priority.), and then she goes to town with the robots. One of a couple of things happens.

She manages to wipe Vale and the majority of the festivals attendee's off the map. Atlas is blamed cause is was there stupid robots, other city states go to war with Atlas.

She wreaks havoc at the festival, all four powers go to war.

And oh, look, she's working with the white fang, she's either sympathetic to them, or playing them as a third angle. Next season might well end with your Grim apocalypse. Yes, she's mysterious, she's keeping her own cards close and misdirecting, a thing most successful strategists learn to do very well because it is an essential skill. Not having it would be like saying your a martial artist who never learned how to block or a driver who never learned how to signal a turn or lane change. She might want the war to put herself in charge, she might want to put them in charge with her at the top, or maybe there a disposable means to an end. Or perhaps she means to just wipe out humans all together and be in charge of a new fanus race that doesn't share the world with humans. Or perhaps she means to wipe out both party's, and not doing it then with the Grim was just a matter of knowing when to strike. There are more ways then one this could go still, which is WHY were still guessing and WHY Cinder is dangerous. She's sidelined the only person in the game who she can't read like a book. The only person with the smarts and creativity to keep up with her or even get ahead. Everyone else is too busy wanting to brute force all there problems.

Yes, mere hours later, with lots of the repercussions being kept from them due to being students still, while exhausted, there not utterly dwelling. I've covered that they think it's the other way around and Cinder works for Torchwick. Hell, for all we know, Wiess is gonna be sleep deprived when we see her next from nightmares cause that's as common a way for such a thing to manifest as any. It's to soon, in universe time line wise as well as at the meta level, to be making that call. Much too soon. And Blake isn't the paranoid one. She's the obsessive one, and she's working on learning to not be the obsessive one, or at least control her obsession and not be controlled by it. And she is distrusting in nature, but not totally so, else she wouldn't be willing to work with the team to begin with. And again, she thinks the woman was Torchwick's bit of outside hired muscle. That he and Adam are the one's who are dangerous. Yeah, Adam's still out there, but hey, they just took out 50% or better of the problem. That is enough to get a good nights sleep and maybe focus on school for a few months. (Minding agian they don't know yet Ozpin's been sidelined.)

I will give you that I'm surprised Yang wasn't more hung up at the time. But on the flip side we've seen that there's more to her then likes to fight for it's own sake. So while earlier in the volume her becoming a basket case form loosing seemed plausible, that had changed by the time it actually happened. Or, to phrase it another way, character growth happened and was remembered.






Edit's incoming since several posts when up while I was distracted.

Durkoala: Characters fail. Zodiac says they never failed. Thus Ignoring all the failures or laying claim that none of them matter. Apparently, calling that "Hey, just cause you didn't like the ending for, by your own description, not being dark enough doesn't mean you get to pretend it and several eps previous didn't happen." now lists me as jumping at nothing. I'm still not getting that.

As for the ep re-write, That might be more satisfying short term. Might. Keeping in mind a couple of things. It requires us to assume the worlds power curve is gonna be set WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY below average for a shonen series. Or that were gonna have to firmly establish that what we saw vs. the Nevermore is the power cap in which case it raises the question "Why are they not already in the field?".

But I doubt this was meant to be a major thing short term. I have every reason based on watching the show to believe that this is just one step in a longer plan. You've had one season, most masterminds take a bit longer then that to really get going. Heck, if she does it by the end of season 2 she'll be down right quick by chess master standards.


Half: Read the rest of my post. As far as they know, they have two problem children, Adam and Roman, and there muscle, the White Fang + A couple of Girls Roman apparently makes use of. They just crippled the White Fang, took out there biggest operation to date with not that much damage (more then they were going for but hey, first field mission.), and handed Roman over to the authority's gift wrapped. On there first mission. That is HUGH. That is a victory in so far as they know. The problem is that there is a lot of information that we, the viewer, are in on, that they, the characters, are not. Almost like there humans who aren't omnipotent and that's being set up to come back and bite them hard. But in the mean time, you took out one of the two most dangerous guys alive, and crippled the organization they both use putting them out of commission for a good long while. Why angst over that?


Zodiac: Except it is being shown. Tell me, have you ever actually read the art of war? Legitimate question, cause I think if you haven't you should or if you haven't recently you should reread it, and then look at where Cinders at through that as a filter. Pay particular attention to where he says that one should only engage to fight when they have already won, and were he talks of the importance of politics in war fare. You may well find it helps to cast light on the matter.

[LaZodiac]

So, when they point blank say "We lost a LOT of white fang operatives in that tunnel", which is a turn of phrase you generally reserve for dead, and specifically say "A lot of people got hurt", that doesn't count as confirming huh? Or as mattering cause they were wearing the wrong outfit? (I realize the other implication there was not intended, so I'm not gonna call you on that one as it would be a rather cheap shot and rather nasty to boot.)

...yeah, I said that. I also explained that they're villain mooks. They died, and that was acknowledged, and I'm happy with that. I'm just surprised that not one single civilian was seriously injured.

It's too early to make a call about them being effected by this happening, but it's not too early to say "they didn't show us any evidence that they've been effected by it". They are all acting like this was just an average day for them directly after the fact, which is when this type of feeling should be strongest.

[Gespenst Ritter]

If they really didn't want any civilian casualties during this event, they could have handled it like the Justice League satellite laser situation. That situation still seems a bit ridiculous that not a single person was killed from the impact of a weapon with the power of nuke, but you at least see the devastation that it causes in the city that's affected, as well as the response from the citizens, who are incredibly shaken, struggling, and having their faith in the Justice League wavering. You can really feel the impact that event had on their world. With the Grimm breach situation, it just seems like business as usual, and everyone will be back to normal the next day.

[Reddish Mage]

Because we glossed over how many straight up failures in the last coupe of eps for the volume for that opening statement?

Yang...

Weiss...

The train isn't stopped...which wound up putting Cinder's Xanato's Gambit, through as touched on above which is gonna be bad news later. And an unprecedented security breach just went on record while tensions are already running high to boot.

And apparently, that doesn't count either, because none of our main characters died, or were maimed and ripped to shreds, or limed away covered in as much of there own blood as there enemy's while an entire segment of the city was closed off forever.

They do fail, quite a bit. But apparently, the only way that counts, is if they fail specifically against the Grim...

I think the issue is that we had the thrust of two episodes at the beginning of the volume, and basically everything Ozpin has been saying this entire volume, and the very opening song foreshadowing that the children are about to go to war, face great adversity, have their friendships tested, and grow up. The results are...

They completely succeed in destroying all the Grim and saving everyone. A few civilians are injured (NOT killed, they specifically said there were no casualties), all damage caused by them to the city is repaired easily, they're ALL killed and Glynda easily seals the hole they came out of. Our heroes came away from this situation going "Man, I hope we get extra credit for this" and that's REALLY stupid considering they all could of died pretty easily, if this show had any idea about how to use threats. Our heroes should at least acknowledge that they where INCREDIBLY lucky to survive this incident completely unscathed, with no civilians dead, and with no lasting Grim prescence in the city. Instead they're cracking jokes like it was that stupid forest test all over again.

You say that Grim have been told time and time again to be super destructive monsters that destroy entire cities if there is one slip up. But nothing bad happened from this.
So yes, they did lose against the chainsaw guy, and Neo, and they did fail to stop the train. But none of that matters because they didn't learn from it.

At best, we can view episode 12 as really being meant as a mid-season point rather than the bookend of a plot arc, that the promised war is still waiting in volume 3 (preferably) or even 4. However, that doesn't hide the fact that the fights we've seen simply didn't serve the plot.

What I liked about the fights in volume 1, not only were the fights awesome, they all served as important plot points and there was a clear message to what went on before and after each fight. Before the Giant Nevermore and the Deathstalker there was just a group of boys and girls mucking about in the woods, afterward they were RWBY and JNPR, not only by Ozpin's decree but in fact.

In this volume, you could have cut out everything in episode 4 after Blake shot the lights out, and it wouldn't have made a wit of difference.

Yes, the girls learned something about how being a hunter can sometimes just be tedious extermination work but that was in the lead up to a the longest battle yet, whose only moments where the heroes weren't just overpowering mooks with new moves (entirely as individuals) were the brief individual duals in the train cars.

There were plenty of consequences to those last episode, but none of those consequences have to do with RWBY or JNPR or anyone else learning something from the experience.

[Metahuman1]

...yeah, I said that. I also explained that they're villain mooks. They died, and that was acknowledged, and I'm happy with that. I'm just surprised that not one single civilian was seriously injured.

It's too early to make a call about them being effected by this happening, but it's not too early to say "they didn't show us any evidence that they've been effected by it". They are all acting like this was just an average day for them directly after the fact, which is when this type of feeling should be strongest.

Well, for starters, when "A lot of people were hurt" they generally aren't talking about paper cuts and stubbed toes if it's not a dedicated comedy series first and foremost. RWBY isn't one, so the obvious next step is that there were noticeable injury's, and at least some of them were quite severe, else it wouldn't warrant bringing up. So, again, they were. The cast however, rather then be glass half empty types, paid attention to the fact that as a result of there intervening, the city wasn't taken out and everyone was not killed. Which, far as they know, was the genocidal terrorist organizations goal here, that they would have gotten away with if not for them. And to the fact that on top of that, they crippled said organization. And took down the guy they've been hunting for months who as far as they know as at least 50% responsible personally for making it so the White Fang could pull a stunt like this. That's a big deal.


And again, that's not even getting into things like the fact that as a result of this Ozpin got sidelined and a Robot Dictatorship/apocalypse just got served up on a silver platter and welcomed in with open arms and deafening applause. Which was the intended next step anyway. Or that Cinder is the big bad, and now there guards are all down cause they got the wrong guy and will now relax, again, according to plan.




And no, not necessarily, not for everyone. Plenty of people have delayed reactions to this kind of trauma. It's why a cop can take a long time to manifest PTSD and doesn't always get it right out of the box the first time he sees something bad.


Edit: Ninja'd.

And what exactly comes with war? What is basically a required thing to show on screen if you want it taken seriously? That only a very few shows get to bypass with out being written off, and then only when there doing it because of censors on there network (Looking at you Avatar: LAB.)

I get that this wasn't quite were we wanted the volume to end. But again, let's remember why that was. It was so there would be time to do more character development before jumping to the next big plot point. Since I don't think anyone wants less development for characters not named Jaune, this is fine.

Besides, all evidence is that in a volume or two, you'll have that war. With everything that comes with it. For the entire rest of the series if not the entire rest of the franchise. 2 seasons to build up to the war, tops, verse 4 seasons minimum in the war? Don't you maybe wanna let them finish set up then since you know that much of it is coming?

[Gespenst Ritter]

A seven second pan over the destruction of the city and the injured civilians being treated by paramedics would have said a lot more about the state of Vale than "A lot of people were hurt." Show, don't tell.

[LaZodiac]

Well, for starters, when "A lot of people were hurt" they generally aren't talking about paper cuts and stubbed toes if it's not a dedicated comedy series first and foremost. RWBY isn't one, so the obvious next step is that there were noticeable injury's, and at least some of them were quite severe, else it wouldn't warrant bringing up. So, again, they were. The cast however, rather then be glass half empty types, paid attention to the fact that as a result of there intervening, the city wasn't taken out and everyone was not killed. Which, far as they know, was the genocidal terrorist organizations goal here, that they would have gotten away with if not for them. And to the fact that on top of that, they crippled said organization. And took down the guy they've been hunting for months who as far as they know as at least 50% responsible personally for making it so the White Fang could pull a stunt like this. That's a big deal.

If I recall they say no one was seriously injured. Literally said that. So like...no, not one civilian was seriously injured. These horrible monsters that can ravish entire towns didn't manage to fatally injure any normal day to day citizen, weren't able to even wound them enough for intensive care. Considering the glass is half full instead of half empty still ignores the issue that "there is only half". They're ignoring the bigger picture to focus on what makes them feel awesome, which if it's setting up for them to REALIZE that they're being flippant about something super serious, that'll be okay. I just want them to realize that this could of ended in disaster, so making jokes about it right now isn't the best idea.

[Reddish Mage]

If I recall they say no one was seriously injured. Literally said that. So like...no, not one civilian was seriously injured. These horrible monsters that can ravish entire towns didn't manage to fatally injure any normal day to day citizen, weren't able to even wound them enough for intensive care. Considering the glass is half full instead of half empty still ignores the issue that "there is only half". They're ignoring the bigger picture to focus on what makes them feel awesome, which if it's setting up for them to REALIZE that they're being flippant about something super serious, that'll be okay. I just want them to realize that this could of ended in disaster, so making jokes about it right now isn't the best idea.

They didn't say "no one was seriously injured" the only mention about injures or death was Ruby said "a lot of people are hurt." The only mention of other damage was Yang responded to Weiss's comment that "if we don't get extra credit for this..." with "a two-headed snake literally crushed a bakery, I wouldn't count on it." The council and Ironwood didn't say anything either only that "the Vytal Festival tournament cannot be broadcast...if we are unable to insure the safety of the citizens."

I wouldn't count on an acknowledgement that RWBY is being flippant with their dealings with the bad guys, which they are even for shounen heroes (contrast Naruto or Bleach). Again, this is a series in which the directors allowed a highway scene that included a giant mecha ramming and overturning over a dozen cars, and their only comment is how cool moving-combat-scenes look. They even had the gall to suggest that particular scene never even got noticed by Ozpin!

Seriously, the kids fought a giant robot on a highway at rush hour, and no one appears to have even noticed. If that's not being flippant, on a story-level, with the consequences of fighting, I don't know what is.

[Sith_Happens]

...No love for 3-panes and/or A:TLA references?

[Reddish Mage]

...No love for 3-panes and/or A:TLA references?

What's 3-panes?

About ATLA, I don't think "a few" shows get away with not showing death (or for that matter serious permanent injury, especially of the non-sanitized variety) during war, I think its relatively rare to see death on screen, especially in anything in the sub "R" set, which RWBY properly belongs, despite not being rated. ATLA is not alone in this, and even the shows that do show death and serious injury often don't show it enough or show a sanitized version.

[Rawhide]

I wouldn't mind if the hole stayed open but they just sectioned off the city. That aside, what Durkoala suggests is a much better finale then what we got.

Yeah, no, the city only survives because of its natural barriers. Punch a hole past these barriers and it becomes a lot harder to defend. It had to be resealed somehow. I don't particularly like how the hole was resealed, I would have preferred it be resealed by, say, explosions to collapse the tunnel at a strategic point, but at least it was established that she could do this previously.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Punch a hole past these barriers and it becomes a lot harder to defend.

And this was never shown.

Unless it goes from "zero defense required" to "some defense required".

[Rawhide]

And this was never shown.

Unless it goes from "zero defense required" to "some defense required".

They managed to contain it and shut the entrance. If they hadn't managed to shut the entrance, continually containing it would have been a lot harder.

[Metahuman1]

If I recall they say no one was seriously injured. Literally said that. So like...no, not one civilian was seriously injured. These horrible monsters that can ravish entire towns didn't manage to fatally injure any normal day to day citizen, weren't able to even wound them enough for intensive care. Considering the glass is half full instead of half empty still ignores the issue that "there is only half". They're ignoring the bigger picture to focus on what makes them feel awesome, which if it's setting up for them to REALIZE that they're being flippant about something super serious, that'll be okay. I just want them to realize that this could of ended in disaster, so making jokes about it right now isn't the best idea.

Zodiac, she didn't say no one was seriously injured. They specifically said in that very conversation, "A lot of people got hurt.". They also discussed a building, someone's business, getting totally destroyed. Earlier Coco mentions someone Else's business getting totally destroyed. A different business, therefore likely owned by a different person. Even if they didn't get hurt, there lively hood is wrecked and there lives thrown in disarray and this get's acknowledged.

It seems the problem isn't that there weren't consequences, but that your not paying enough attention to realize the consequences are there.

I was gonna put a rant about how utterly obnoxious I find that argument about leaving the hole open, but due to the fact that the more I hammered out how obnoxious I found it and why the more irked I became until it turned into a rant, I opted to just leave it out in the interests of attempting to remain mostly civil.

That said.

See, that's a thing that infuriates me. RWBY does something. People don't bother to pay attention too it. Then complain that they didn't do the thing they weren't paying attention too it. And that it needs to be darker to make up for it. Why? Because you didn't want to pay attention? Why should I have to watch the show be made "Darkar and Edgiar!" (Yes I know it's not spelled that way, I'm borrowing from a certain style and time period of media that were known for doing that just to be different and there fore "Cool", in order to help illustrate a point.) ? Would you do that in other shows? I Kinda doubt it.

[LaZodiac]

Zodiac, she didn't say no one was seriously injured. They specifically said in that very conversation, "A lot of people got hurt.". They also discussed a building, someone's business, getting totally destroyed. Earlier Coco mentions someone Else's business getting totally destroyed. A different business, therefore likely owned by a different person. Even if they didn't get hurt, there lively hood is wrecked and there lives thrown in disarray and this get's acknowledged.

It seems the problem isn't that there weren't consequences, but that your not paying enough attention to realize the consequences are there.

I was gonna put a rant about how utterly obnoxious I find that argument about leaving the hole open, but due to the fact that the more I hammered out how obnoxious I found it and why the more irked I became until it turned into a rant, I opted to just leave it out in the interests of attempting to remain mostly civil.

That said.

See, that's a thing that infuriates me. RWBY does something. People don't bother to pay attention too it. Then complain that they didn't do the thing they weren't paying attention too, and that it needs to be darker to make up for it. Why? Because you didn't want to pay attention? Why should I have to watch the show be made "Darkar and Edgiar!" (Yes I know it's not spelled that way, I'm borrowing from a certain style and time period of media that were known for doing that just to be different and there fore "Cool", in order to help illustrate a point.) ? Would you do that in other shows? I Kinda doubt it.

I do pay attention, and those places can very easily be fixed due to Glynda's style of magic. Plus it's been a few months since I've seen the episode, so I'm sorry if I got one detail wrong. Please don't assume my problems with the show come from "not paying attention" because that's kind of a rude assumption.

I've NEVER seen someone use "Darkar and edgiar" before, by the way. That's...very interesting.

[GPuzzle]

I think the main problem is that they said that there's a lot of dissonances. Even if they had not that much of a struggle - you know, imagine the normal finale, a shot of something like a bakery getting destroyed, or an overhead shot of the city with people just walking around a more destroyed part of the city would be helpful in setting up an atmosphere of "We've just stopped a genuine threat but thankfully no one got hurt" which was what they were shooting for if we see the episodes that happened before the finale.

A dissonance in scenario and narrative, and a break of what we were expecting. They not only told, not show us, but not even the atmosphere conveyed was that of "We've stopped the threat with little to no casualties and minimal destruction despite the struggle" which was probably what they were shooting for.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The problem is nothing actually came of it. JNPR's trip got delayed, Roman got captured for whatever that's worth, team CME is being mysterious, and Ozpin is coming under scrutiny. All of these things could've easily happened without an attack on the city.

[Metahuman1]

I do pay attention, and those places can very easily be fixed due to Glynda's style of magic. Plus it's been a few months since I've seen the episode, so I'm sorry if I got one detail wrong. Please don't assume my problems with the show come from "not paying attention" because that's kind of a rude assumption.

I've NEVER seen someone use "Darkar and edgiar" before, by the way. That's...very interesting.

Alright, I apologize if that came off rude.

And it's not that you got one detail wrong. It's that you either got several wrong, or insisted that they absolutely do not matter. And some of your logic for why it doesn't matter is baffling. ("It's connected to the bud guys plan! I don't care about the bad guys so it doesn't matter or count." That's like saying "The Straw Hats lost to CP9! But it connected to Spandam's (Or how ever that jerks name was spelled.) plan. I don't care about Spandam so it doesn't matter or count.

And don't say Spandam is a better planner. The whole point of him was that he was only dangerous because of a position of authority he got form his father and the fact that he's a sadist and a sociopath. That's it. He's painted as being so incompetent even with the resources he has it's a miracle he lived as long as he did.)

Or that on screen deaths don't matter. Because they didn't linger on them. In a fight were more people were attacking them. And they were trying to stop a train so that it didn't let grim into the city (which they failed at and then had to automatically shift to trying to damage control the grim getting in. You've seen AoT, you know what tends to happen when you stop and linger on that kind of stuff in a fight instead of just keeping focused on the fight. Tends to end poorly for you and yours). And Because they were villains. And not named top level villains.


On top of missing two lines of dialog, one of which you then said didn't count as pointed out above, and claiming that two lost duels in a row didn't count because inside of the less then ten minutes of screen time of anything happening after the fighting was done, which was largely being dedicated to things outside of just team RWBY, they didn't dwell on it too much, instead focusing on what they knew which was "We won.". Which, if your gonna turn the feeling of having won on it's head, you have to first convince them that they've won. Let's face it, this version of the scene

Ruby: "We took your boss out, and now were gonna take you down too!"

Cinder: "Oh, Roman? That's adorable child, you though my secretary was the CEO." *Takes remote out of pocket. Presses button on remote.*

Ruby: "What are you talking about?!"

*Robots turn guns on her.*

Ruby: "Uh-oh."

*Cue action scene that's now put her badly on the defensive because she wasn't ready for any of this at all because she though it was over already.*




works a lot better dramatically then this version of the same scene.




Ruby: "We got Roman, were gonna get you too!"

Cinder: "That's adorable child, you though my secretary was the CEO." *Uses Remote as before, except it doesn't work.*

Cinder: "What?!" *Plays with it ala Joker with remote blowing up hospital in The Dark Knight.*

Ruby: *Smirks* "Yeah, I might have had Blake swap the battery's. Your a hard woman to track down Cinder Falls, but not impossible. Particularly since you were so nice as to free up Professor Ozpin to look into it personally. Girls?"

*Fight Ensues.*

That second version would be hilarious I grant you, but you want to talk no dramatic tension? That doesn't even have the potential for dramatic tension. For that, first version is far more suitable. But for that, they needed to have though they had won, and be on the defensive. Taking out one of the top 2 people in your evil organization, foiling there plan, blowing it wide open for the authorities, burning up a Hugh chunk of there resources and depleting a massive amount of there man power (person power, whatever you wanna call it.), that is generally gonna look and feel like a legitimate win. Particularly if your miss informed about the identity's of your opposition and there leadership and aren't aware of some of there other accomplishments. That works for set up.




Now, yes, I will grant, a couple of things could have been done to alter the finally so that it flowed better. Personally, I think I'd have had Zwei and Oobleck running damage control on Grim that were already past the tunnel for the fight while having team's Ruby, Juniper, Coffee and team Sun and when they show up a chunk of the robots and prof port in the tunnel holding it 300 Spartans at thermophile style till the robots show up. Then Goodwitch can show up and seal it. And yeah, a pan shot and a slightly different choice in music (I didn't hate Coffee's theme song, but it was not a good time to show it.) and a throwaway comment about "Good thing the terrain was still advantageous." form Ren or someone.

Hell, I'd have had Cinder stick to pure dust and maybe a smig of unarmed fighting earlier in the tower scuffles so that she could whip out the swords and arrows here and participate to help sell that her and her team are on the up and up. Would have also helped Ruby to lead the adults to the right conclusion a bit more smoothly. (Well, the adults Minus Ironwood anyway.)

I'm not saying the finally was perfect. But if your gonna kick it, kick it for things it needs to be kicked for. Not things that were being covered. (Hello Adam walking around what is almost certainly a heavily monitored area in broad day light to meet with your mastermind. Yes, that was stupid and possibly the best argument I've seen to date on why Cinder isn't a chess master, she's an idiot who so far has gotten very lucky at Xanatos Roulette, and not actual Xanatos Gambits.)



And as an aside, yes, good witch could rebuild the place. Just like they could of refitted form Dust Till Dawn prior to the 6 months they waited till the owner did it himself. I don't think it works that way in general.


Lastly, it was a thing in the 80's and early to mid 90's to deliberately spell things wrong. Was regarded as hip and cool and extreme and edgy and showed attitude and all that junk. I made reference to it because many comic books got into doing it at that time, and at the same time were doing Iron/Dark age BS on the grounds it was "Better" and "More Relevant.". Since you were curious about it.

[GPuzzle]

Yes, that's another problem with narrative dissonance.

It could be done a lot better because it feels the fight just doesn't connect to the story that well, and that's what everyone is complain about, not gloom and doom for its own sake.

[LaZodiac]

Alright, I apologize if that came off rude.

And it's not that you got one detail wrong. It's that you either got several wrong, or insisted that they absolutely do not matter. And some of your logic for why it doesn't matter is baffling. ("It's connected to the bud guys plan! I don't care about the bad guys so it doesn't matter or count." That's like saying "The Straw Hats lost to CP9! But it connected to Spandam's (Or how ever that jerks name was spelled.) plan. I don't care about Spandam so it doesn't matter or count.

And don't say Spandam is a better planner. The whole point of him was that he was only dangerous because of a position of authority he got form his father and the fact that he's a sadist and a sociopath. That's it. He's painted as being so incompetent even with the resources he has it's a miracle he lived as long as he did.)

Lastly, it was a thing in the 80's and early to mid 90's to deliberately spell things wrong. Was regarded as hip and cool and extreme and edgy and showed attitude and all that junk. I made reference to it because many comic books got into doing it at that time, and at the same time were doing Iron/Dark age BS on the grounds it was "Better" and "More Relevant.". Since you were curious about it.

I don't think you understood what I meant when I said I don't care about Cinder's plans. Or that you didn't understand when I explained it. I'm not saying what she said "doesn't matter because it's connected to Cinder's plan", and I have...no idea what you're talking about with Spandam, at all. You've completely lost me. I'll try and explain again. As you say later on, there are instances where Cinder just looks super lucky, an idiot playing Xanatos Roulette because she's talking with Adam in broad daylight. That's my issue with everything about Cinder's plan. It's all stupid and relies far too much on the narrative allowing her plan to work. I also just hate it when a villain's plan fails, and they say that they planned for it to fail. Not that they had a back up plan, but that they EXPECTED it and WANTED IT to fail, which to me is what Cinder is acting like. I don't like villains that are omniscient super planners who never fail ever unless they want to, and that's what Cinder is to me.

And YES, you're right, that's exactly how Spandam is. He's a GOOD villain BECAUSE he's so incompetent. The only reason he succeeds is because his minions are just that strong, and he himself is awful. Spandam is a villain that is written well in that his motivations are clear, his methods are clear, and he's easy to hate in a GOOD way. He's not like Cinder who spouts nonsense that's supposed to be mysterious and enigmatic "because I am the villain", and thus raises my ire at her being boring and stupid.

That's really stupid and I'd suggest not doing it because I've NEVER heard of anyone spelling something wrong on purpose to be more interesting. At worst I've seen people spell wrong because you can't copyright standard works. Thus why the character is Darkseid, not Darkside. Or Stryfe instead of Strife, and so on.