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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lanaya's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by ProphetSword View Post
    That's part of the problem. Some of us want high level characters to be heroes who can be challenged...not gods who are unstoppable.
    I know. Some people like certain things, other people don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    I'm sorry - at what point in 3.5 do characters get Divine Ranks in the course of leveling up? If they don't, then they should NEVER be classified as 'minor dieties'. High-level characters are people with above-average-but-still-human ability, a lot of plot armor(Hit points), and ability to negate other's plot armor (Increased damage). And cool special abilities that are still human(oid) in scope. Even if it's magic.
    Well evidently this isn't true, and that's what you've been arguing is a fault of 3.5. A high level character can walk on clouds, swim up a waterfall made of lava, directly override someone's free will by speaking real good, crawl through the gaps in a completely solid wall, accurately forge handwriting they've never seen before, ascertain someone's moral and ethical leanings by glancing at their face for half a second, disable a complex pit trap or open a masterfully made lock in such a small amount of time it doesn't even take an action, see an invisible, motionless zombie floating in midair and, after falling from space, effortlessly land on their feet without taking a single point of damage. And that's without even touching class features, or the good ol' classics such as killing an army of hundreds of thousands without taking a scratch. If that's above-average-but-still-human then I want to meet the humans you've been hanging out with.

  2. - Top - End - #302

    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    I'd have to go digging through 5e playtest commentary. But Mike Mearls was talking about the value of having parties not outlevel their challenges.


    To return to the pit trap example... I think a net trap might be better to demonstrate that even high-level parties can find themselves relevantly disadvantaged (If momentarily) by low-level threats. As opposed to Math! saying "Now you're immune to this sort of thing"
    Mike Mearls is a hack.

    Anything he says about roleplaying games you just go ahead and assume the opposite is better.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    McBars's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas View Post
    Mike Mearls is a hack.

    Anything he says about roleplaying games you just go ahead and assume the opposite is better.
    Why is that?

    In that case better stick to other editions, cause he apparently was fairly involved with this edition.

    Murderhobo with a Shotgun

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    burn the munchkin, kill the min/maxer, purge the jediverse

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas View Post
    Mike Mearls is a hack.

    Anything he says about roleplaying games you just go ahead and assume the opposite is better.
    Mike Mearls is one of the better RPG designers, especially for D&D. He just sucked with 4e, because he was trying to get the system to do something it couldn't, and he couldn't get the system to work. Yes, he wrote a system that he wasn't fit for (It was designed by others before he got onboard, and then he misunderstood it and screwed it all up)

  5. - Top - End - #305

    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by McBars View Post
    Why is that?

    In that case better stick to other editions, cause he apparently was fairly involved with this edition.
    A number of problems occurred when he took over 4e. He tried to turn it into some sick idea of what he believed was D&D, and that's coincidentally exactly when 4e disappeared from all the best-seller lists. Essentials was an utter failure, and he wrote what is widely considered the worst 4e supplements of all, Heroes of Shadow and BoVD.

    Not to mention if you go back through the archives and follow all of his 5e design articles it's comedy gold. The transparency of the 5e design process demonstrated that Mearls had no idea what he was doing at basically any stage.

    If 5e is functional, it is in spite of Mike Mearls, not thanks to him.
    Last edited by Nicol Bolas; 2014-11-18 at 02:43 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
    Why not? I mean, short of Hercules, I really can't think of any major fantasy "epics" in which you would classify the hero(es) as "minor-deities". I suppose Gandalf was, but certainly the rest of the fellowship wasn't. Jason and the Argonauts were hardly deities. Odysseus wasn't. Conan isn't. Beowulf? Harry Potter?
    The Epic of Gilgamesh comes to mind, at least as regards what Gilgamesh does. Achilles somewhat qualifies.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    They're designing for people who actually play the game, sitting at a table and keeping the action and flow of the game moving quickly and uninterrupted, with only maps, adventure notes, character sheets, miniatures, dice, snacks, and pencils at the table, with books buried underneath adventure notes, backup character sheets, pizza boxes, etc, and only consulted for character generation and an occassional (once per hour at most) niche rules clarification.
    {{Scrubbed}}
    Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2014-11-20 at 12:03 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagash View Post
    {{Scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}}
    Yup. Gamers in general are not noted for attention to cleanliness. Most games don't take place at the little Lord Fauntleroy Academy for albino hemophiliacs with a chamber music quartet playing in the background and a tray of cucumber sandwiches nearby.

    I find your notion of equating a DM having to make judgment calls in his or her game with a system designed to be marketed towards stupid people or slobs to be ridiculous & offensive to people who enjoy 5e. This isn't Warhammer; there aren't predetermined values assigned to every challenge in every situation.
    Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2014-11-20 at 12:04 PM.

    Murderhobo with a Shotgun

    Learn your rules, learn your rules, if you don't you'll be eaten in your sleep!

    burn the munchkin, kill the min/maxer, purge the jediverse

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Precisely - so writing off anyone as "nonheroic" or "heroic" and precluding them from rolling solely on either basis is silly. There are circumstances where rolling makes no difference, but that should be determined by the situation, not whether the character is "heroic" or not.

    (Bink is from Xanth.)
    Incidentally, Bink would be WAY OP in just about any edition of D&D.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

    Dual-wield the rainbow. Taste the rainbow.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Sartharina's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Precisely - so writing off anyone as "nonheroic" or "heroic" and precluding them from rolling solely on either basis is silly. There are circumstances where rolling makes no difference, but that should be determined by the situation, not whether the character is "heroic" or not.
    The point is everyone/thing is heroic. Odds of success and failure are dramatically and deliberately increased in d20 systems.

    And whether you roll or not is determined by the situation... that situation being "Will rolling make the game more interesting?"

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Is it just me or has the conversation not advanced for half a dozen of pages?

    Not to be completely out of subject, while 'minor deity' is stretching it, most of the major greek heroes in epics are demi-gods, or are the descendant of a demigod, or are at the very least inferred to have some divine blood in them. Not hard, considering Zeus's tendencies. And they are not that different from minor deities. Basically in a number of greek mythos I can remember, divines are mostly like humans, they just exist with a higher power level and sometimes with a nice divine trick. Dominion over a realm or aspect is reserved for the most powerful ones. So technically an absurdly powerful human is a minor deity. Sure, unless he has magic he can't have the nifty power of springs, but always striking true with a bow and arrow no matter what? Doable. Immortality? Well, unless magic is involved, true immortality is impossible, but if you were already a crazy powerful warrior by the time of your believer's grandparents and you are still undefeated on the battlefield, you are functionally immortal for them. Also, some deities are just very powerful beings, Sobek's job is to look scary and devour the unworthy, mechanically he isn't that different from a top level 3.5 druid. Heck, he doesn't even have spellcasting.

    Now, what do greek mythos have to do with egyptian gods? I raise you the roman pantheon.
    Last edited by Alberic Strein; 2014-11-23 at 05:39 AM.
    I'm here to kick ass and call you names... And I'm not very witty.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Alberic Strein View Post
    Is it just me or has the conversation not advanced for half a dozen of pages?
    That's because the real answer is:

    People like this, other people like this.

    None of us care which one anyone else likes.

    There is no valid discussion to be had. The fact that these things go on for a dozen pages is ridiculous.

  13. - Top - End - #313
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    That's because the real answer is:

    People like this, other people like this.

    None of us care which one anyone else likes.

    There is no valid discussion to be had. The fact that these things go on for a dozen pages is ridiculous.
    Seconded. As much as the phrase annoys me, I guess this forum will just have to agree to disagree.
    "No, she's already given her epic one-liner! We're committed now!"

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Default Re: 5e doesn't suck... but it doesn't really stack up well against 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by madfellow View Post
    seconded. As much as the phrase annoys me, i guess this forum will just have to agree to disagree.
    We shall never surrender! We shall fight on some more forever! The flame war shall burn on and on until the end of time! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

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