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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Question How does one build a Chameleon?

    My newest venture has me creating a level 9 character, and, me being me, I had no idea what to play, so I decided to play everything! I've decided on Factotum 5/Warblade 1/Chameleon 3, and...that's about it, really. Having never built a factotum or chameleon, I'm not really sure what the best place to take the build would be. I figure on progressing Chameleon, but then what? I haven't even a vague hint of what feats to take, barring Font of Inspiration for some extra Factotum use. My primary focus will be as a skill monkey, but ideally with enough versatility to pitch in as a fifth wheel.

    This is also my first venture back into 3.5 since my group's migration to Pathfinder, so I'm admittedly still slightly dazed by the sheer volume of options.

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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    factotum 5 is the best entry. why did you dip warblade1? are you planning to take some more warblade lvls later on?

    due to the way initiating works, you want to time your warblade dip when your total IL is equal to 7 or more so you can start picking up 4ths with your first known warblade maneuvers, meaning you'd go factotum5/chameleon2/warblade 1/chameleon 3 in order to be able to pick the highest possible lvl maneuvers.

    the chameleon handbook is extremely helpful in answering basic questions and provides some direction for almost anything you might want to do later on.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    IMO there's two main features to Chameleon; the floating feat at the second level, and the spellcasting. A Chameleon can acquire spells from any divine or arcane spellcasting class. This includes stuff like Haste at level 1 or Polar Ray at level 5. It gets more powerful the more you get spells from splat books.

    After Chameleon, you could just go for more Factotum, or take more levels as Warblade. Factorum 8 is very good, that gets you cunning surge. Since you add half of the level of your other class levels to your initiator level, you can take higher level maneuvers. Too bad that second level of Warblade is just lackluster at high level build.

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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    I like Factotum 1/Ardent 4/ Chameleon 10/Ardent 5.

    It lets you pick up 9th level powers and you get just a touch of factotuming that you may or may not want to FoI into being useful.

    You want high Int and Wis but as always Chameleon helps loads when it comes to the muh-muh-muh-muh-muh-MADness.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    I like Factotum 1/Ardent 4/ Chameleon 10/Ardent 5.

    It lets you pick up 9th level powers and you get just a touch of factotuming that you may or may not want to FoI into being useful.
    how do you get 9th lvl powers with only 9 levels of ardent?
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Practiced spellcaster and practiced manifested will do it at level 20 but other ML and CL boosters will get you there faster.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    Practiced spellcaster and practiced manifested will do it at level 20 but other ML and CL boosters will get you there faster.
    Huh? Okay, so you take practiced manifester (ardent) at some point, ultimately ending up with ML13

    how do you get practiced spellcaster to count for a non-spellcasting class?
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Huh? Okay, so you take practiced manifester (ardent) at some point, ultimately ending up with ML13

    how do you get practiced spellcaster to count for a non-spellcasting class?
    The magic mantle
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    The magic mantle
    thanks for clearing that up. seems pretty legit, though alone, as you said it only boosts ML to 17 at 20, but it's possible to tweak it higher a little earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    thanks for clearing that up. seems pretty legit, though alone, as you said it only boosts ML to 17 at 20, but it's possible to tweak it higher a little earlier.

    No problem. I would have posted a quote but I'm AFB posting on my phone right now.

    On its own you barely end up with a 9th for psionics but of course there are other CL boosters put there.
    Last edited by (Un)Inspired; 2014-11-10 at 03:58 AM.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    No problem. I would have posted a quote but I'm AFB posting on my phone right now.

    On its own you barely end up with a 9th for psionics but of course there are other CL boosters put there.
    don't worry about it, when you mentioned what to check, I just looked it up myself.

    yeah. it's a neat idea though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    I like this build as a psionic grappler that uses telekinetic maneuver, twin power, schism, celerity, linked power and solicit psicrystal to grapple as many enemies as possible at once. It's fun having celerity and favor of the martyr together on one build even if it's pretty cheesy.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    I like this build as a psionic grappler that uses telekinetic maneuver, twin power, schism, celerity, linked power and solicit psicrystal to grapple as many enemies as possible at once. It's fun having celerity and favor of the martyr together on one build even if it's pretty cheesy.
    that's a clever idea.

    when I roll chameleon, I usually end up prioritizing int for various reasons (money, more arcane spells allow saves, there are more so a higher bonus is more important, skillpoints, etc) and end up using the bulk of my divine slots for either buffs, like bite of the werex or BFC/stuff without saves

    honestly, nothing involving chameleon's too cheesy. they just aren't powerful enough. I find it's a handy way to handicap oneself when playing with a less experienced group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    that's a clever idea.

    when I roll chameleon, I usually end up prioritizing int for various reasons (money, more arcane spells allow saves, there are more so a higher bonus is more important, skillpoints, etc) and end up using the bulk of my divine slots for either buffs, like bite of the werex or BFC/stuff without saves

    honestly, nothing involving chameleon's too cheesy. they just aren't powerful enough. I find it's a handy way to handicap oneself when playing with a less experienced group.
    You're probably right I just never feel totally wholesome when I escape celeritys daze.

    You make a good point about int. If you really need your wisdom higher for save DCs then you could always drop an Owls Insight.
    Last edited by (Un)Inspired; 2014-11-10 at 10:09 AM.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Font of Inspiration probably won't be worthwhile without Cunning Surge. Remember that your inspiration refreshes every encounter anyway, and not everything you do will be burning inspiration points.

    If you do take one or more Warblade levels after you start Chameleon, remember that you only need to meet prerequisites for maneuvers at the time you take them: If you later lose a prerequisite, there's no penalty. So you can use your floating feat on Martial Study to help meet a prereq, and then change it to something else.

    At higher levels of chameleon, you can effectively use three ability focuses at once. Start the day with arcane/divine, spend all of your divine spell slots on all-day buffs, and then switch to arcane/something else.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    factotum 5 is the best entry. why did you dip warblade1? are you planning to take some more warblade lvls later on?

    due to the way initiating works, you want to time your warblade dip when your total IL is equal to 7 or more so you can start picking up 4ths with your first known warblade maneuvers, meaning you'd go factotum5/chameleon2/warblade 1/chameleon 3 in order to be able to pick the highest possible lvl maneuvers.
    Huh? Factotum 5/Chameleon 2/Warblade 1 has an IL of 4, not 7, and I'm pretty certain that all the 4th level maneuvers have "x maneuvers known" prereqs, so you can't pick them up immediately anyway.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    Huh? Factotum 5/Chameleon 2/Warblade 1 has an IL of 4, not 7, and I'm pretty certain that all the 4th level maneuvers have "x maneuvers known" prereqs, so you can't pick them up immediately anyway.
    wow I failed pretty hard there. I shouldn't post so late:

    you are of course right. What I meant to say was:

    factotum5/chameleon3/warblade 1 to get an IL of 5, enabling you to start picking 3rds.

    while most 4ths have prereqs, there are a few that do not, but that's more or less moot, since most 3s are better anyway.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Is there a reason this build uses ardent and not a different psionic class with the Tap and Don Mantle feats?
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    I use ardent because they are extremely multiclass-friendly when it come to learning powers.

    They can learn powers based on their manifested level not just their class level.
    Last edited by (Un)Inspired; 2014-11-10 at 11:52 PM.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    A tricky question about the magic mantles ultra transparency.

    So you are X1/Ardent4/Chameleon10/Y5 with the substitute powers acf.

    If that Practiced Spellcaster + Practiced Manifester trick is doable, could we think that, per the magic mantle, any way to raise your caster level also raises your manifester level? If this is true, then what happens when you cast consumptive field? Does it raise both cl and ml?

    Things are gettin' more and more tricky now, because as long as your ml is just 4, you can manifest 2nd level powers only, which you get to choose from your own customized mantles (i assume DM is totally ok with you when you design your mantles). But when you suddenly increase in ml, you suddenly know new powers from your mantles. And that's just fine. But when consumptive field expires, i imagine that your powers known will vanish too. But the next day you cast consumptive field again and you'll get to know new powers again, from that small list that are your four mantles.
    If that's true, it's really cool, because it creates a "prepared manifester" because you know and forget powers each day, although you only get to choose from a small list.

    Does this make any sense at all?
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    You still only learn powers when you level up.


    Now if you activated consumptive field then a linked power psychic reformation...
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're my new player given the unlikelihood of some other person asking for a level 9 Chameleon build within four days of it coming up with our group.

    I'm personally not a fan of Factotum, and it's actually the only class I've outright banned (excepting psionics, but that's not for any gameplay reasons, just because the playable races don't have them in this particular setting). I've found it hard to articulate my complaints about it until I read the Chameleon PrC entry in Races of Destiny...I realized then that it wasn't that I opposed the ultra-generalist approach so much as it was I opposed the fact that it could be altered on a round-by-round basis. I'm actually pretty okay with Chameleon, even though it seems very similar to Factotum at first glance, because there's some preparation required beforehand.

    Also, continuing on my circumstantial assumption, I'd like to add that at the moment nobody in the party has lockpicking/trap-finding capabilities, which is scary and something you can fix.
    Last edited by Milodiah; 2014-11-11 at 10:08 PM.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're my new player given the unlikelihood of some other person asking for a level 9 Chameleon build within four days of it coming up with our group.

    I'm personally not a fan of Factotum, and it's actually the only class I've outright banned (excepting psionics, but that's not for any gameplay reasons, just because the playable races don't have them in this particular setting). I've found it hard to articulate my complaints about it until I read the Chameleon PrC entry in Races of Destiny...I realized then that it wasn't that I opposed the ultra-generalist approach so much as it was I opposed the fact that it could be altered on a round-by-round basis. I'm actually pretty okay with Chameleon, even though it seems very similar to Factotum at first glance, because there's some preparation required beforehand.

    Also, continuing on my circumstantial assumption, I'd like to add that at the moment nobody in the party has lockpicking/trap-finding capabilities, which is scary and something you can fix.
    why would you ban factotum? it's hardly gamebreaking. casters can alter their entire role on a round by round basis too, do you ban them?

    factotum can trapfind. it functions basically exactly like a rogue, especially if your player's not going factotum20 but is going chameleon instead. check out the handbook and have your fears of what's new and different set at ease.
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    I know, I never can fully explain what it is I don't like about factotums, it's probably just lingering distaste from watching one played high-OP in a low-OP small party...you can imagine what that looked like, I'm sure.

    As for casters, they don't alter their roles from magic user to rogue to combat character and back on a round-by-round basis...there are casters that blend those elements, like beguilers or hexblades, but they all have specific setups and strategies for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    I know, I never can fully explain what it is I don't like about factotums, it's probably just lingering distaste from watching one played high-OP in a low-OP small party...you can imagine what that looked like, I'm sure.
    ok. well since your player's speccing for chameleon, you don't exactly need to worry about him being high-op.

    I can't, really, since factotum's at best a high T3. I'm gathering the rest of the party was just really bad so got outshined? that's more of an experience discrepancy than anything wrong with the class tho, since the same thing could've happened with rogue.


    As for casters, they don't alter their roles from magic user to rogue to combat character and back on a round-by-round basis...there are casters that blend those elements, like beguilers or hexblades, but they all have specific setups and strategies for them.
    yeah, they really do, and they do it to a much worse degree than factotum does, since all he'll do (since he's only taking 5 lvls) is give himself some bonuses to skills and rolls and maybe heal a little HP damage once in a while. if you're not banning wizards, then a factotum is in no way too powerful since he's vastly inferior in every way
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    I'm sorry, I phrased that wrong. Yes, wizards do have polymorph to turn into a horrifying murderbeast, or can turn invisible to be stealthy. They're accomplishing multiple roles by using their specific capabilities, which is great. I just don't care for how factotum more or less literally just uses puts a whole bunch of other classes' features like back-stabbing and turning undead into a pool that can be tapped whenever it's wanted.
    Last edited by Milodiah; 2014-11-11 at 10:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    I'm sorry, I phrased that wrong. Yes, wizards do have polymorph to turn into a horrifying murderbeast, or can turn invisible to be stealthy. They're accomplishing multiple roles by using their specific capabilities, which is great. I just don't care for how factotum more or less literally just uses puts a whole bunch of other classes' features like back-stabbing and turning undead into a pool that can be tapped whenever it's wanted.
    >whole bunch

    that's basically the only two you'll be able to emulate with 5 lvls of factotum, and you can't do it "whenever you want" since you have a limited number of inspiration points/encounter which is far lower than the amount of spell slots a wizard (or cleric/sorcerer/druid/etc) has for each encounter.

    sneak attack is pretty worthless on an absolute scale and factota don't get enough of it to autowin any encounters. their opportunistic piety is also just atrocious for turning undead since your ECL is so low. it's not like he's going to be able to make your rogue or cleric feel useless, he's just not good enough in either sphere to overshadow anyone.

    and again, casters can already do stuff like that via wracking touch or rebuking breath, to such a degree that it actually does overshadow classes that are good at stuff.

    anyway, you'll see for yourself when gametime comes. I strongly encourage you to allow factotum. they play exactly like a rogue if rogue didn't suck so hard.

    if you're skeptical, stat one up and try it out in some quick pregen encounters. you'll see he won't overshadow anybody.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Very well, I'll allow factotum to see how it goes. And it's never been an issue of tiers or power levels to me, it's genuinely just that I don't care for the idea of a class whose very purpose is "just try to cover all the bases".
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Do not try a linear campaign, without some discussion with them. Players very often look at your hooks and then try to accomplish it in a different way, not touch it, try to do the complete opposite, or somehow set it on fire.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
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    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    Very well, I'll allow factotum to see how it goes. And it's never been an issue of tiers or power levels to me, it's genuinely just that I don't care for the idea of a class whose very purpose is "just try to cover all the bases".
    hey, that's great. let us know how it goes. I think you'll be happy with the results. I understand your feelings. much like a bard, your best bet is to pick one or two things you're interested in and focus there rather than try to spread yourself too thin.
    Last edited by Venger; 2014-11-11 at 11:11 PM.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

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  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Land of Cleves
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How does one build a Chameleon?

    Really, the factotum isn't so much a dabbler "cover all the bases" class, as it is an amazingly good skillmonkey that also dabbles in a few other things. None of the other things they do come anywhere close to their skillmonkeying. In fact, if I were to ban the class, it'd be because they're better at skills than the rogue is, who's supposed to be the best at skills, and doesn't really have anything else worthwhile.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

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