OOTS #967 - The Discussion Thread

[kenlund]

No. Vaarsuvius/Blackwing are a single unit, due to the caster/familiar bond.

Ahh. That makes sense. I have never played a character with a familiar. I keep thinking of it more like an animal companion.

[Nicol Bolas]

I just really don't like snark, giving how certain people in my life have used it.

Snarkiness is not clever, sarcasm isn't nourishing. On a basic, "Ooooh, burn!" level it can be appreciated by me; but I just don't like witty, snappy comments.

This is like the snarkiest webcomic on the planet.

What are you doing here if you believe that?

[zimmerwald1915]

So I'm just saying that I bet the Giant will use this ioun stone/bracelet for something in the future, as opposed to forgetting about it.

Recall that the point of making it a bracelet was to stick it on a character model and forget about it

(You see that tongue in the emoticon? Well, instead of sticking out, imagine it planted in my cheek instead.)

And now I'm wondering if it might even have been more useful for Elan to use. I don't know the exact rules, but I'd guess his spell casting level is lower and the boost would be more effective. Blackwing's selfishness precluded even having that discussion. Which is a shame since seeing the look on his father's face when he sees the stone over Elan's head would be priceless - especially if Laurin is actually dead due to the rift Elan led them to.

A Bard has a caster level equal to their Bard level. Elan has 14 Bard levels and at least 1, almost certainly 2, levels of Dashing Swordsman. Dashing Swordsman does not seem to advance Bard spells-known acquisition; it might advance caster level, but since spontaneous caster level is usually tied to spells-known acquisition in terms of class progression (that is, not in terms of ad hoc bonuses from feats or items), that's not likely. So Elan using the ioun stone would cast at level 15 out of his total level of 16, and would be able to cast the Bard spells he knows as a level 14 Bard.

A Wizard has a caster level equal to their Wizard level. Vaarsuvius has 16 Wizard levels. Vaarsuvius using the ioun stone would cast at level 17 out of her total level of 16, and would be able to cast the Wizard spells she would be able to prepare as a level 16 Wizard.

1 caster level constitutes a greater relative boost for Elan than for V, (1:14 v. 1:16), but there are two reasons this doesn't mean Elan could have put the ioun stone to "more use." First, the ioun stone pushes V beyond her normal caster level limit, while it does not even let Elan break even in terms of the caster levels he's given up by advancing in Dashing Swordsman. Making someone better than they ought to be is clearly more useful than not even catching someone up to where they ought to be. Particularly if the thing being pushed beyond its limit is a core job function and the thing being caught up is not.

More importantly, caster level primarily affects three things: spell duration, spell damage, and ability to succeed on caster level checks, including dispel checks and checks to pierce spell resistance. V uses more spells with a listed duration than Elan. The only confirmed spell known for Elan that might benefit from a buff to duration would be neutralize poison, which hardly needs it; 1 hour and 30 minutes of duration is not significantly more useful than 1 hour and 20 minutes when the object is to get someone to a cleric who can actually restore the ability damage. Either the cleric is nearby, in which case the extra ten minutes won't matter, or they're so far away that the extra ten minutes won't matter. Rarely do ten minutes decide whether or not you'll reach your goal, and when they do, drama, not spell duration, will dictate the outcome anyway. All of Elan's other spells tend to be fire-and-forget like his cure repertoire and lesser confusion, or have a duration of Concentration like his image repertoire. Elan's bardic music does not benefit from the ioun stone. V, meanwhile, uses buffs like heroism, polymorph, protection from energy, and bull's strength, which have comparatively short durations and thus benefit more from extensions. A bull's strength that lasts for 17 minutes instead of 16 is one that might last three combats instead of two.

Damage is more or less a wash. Elan doesn't use damaging spells as a rule, and V has already hit the damage cap on the most of the ones she has been confirmed as using (chain lightning has a damage cap of 20d6 though). Either one might learn damage spells that might benefit from an additional damage die in the future.

As for the ability to succeed on caster level checks, here the argument that boosting your best asset beyond its cap is better than failing to catch someone up to their potential rears its head again. A CL 17 V is on par with Redcloak in terms of being able to dispel spells and to resist her spells being dispelled. A CL 15 Elan is...not. Plus there's been buildup of V struggling with spell resistance since War and XPs and continuing through Blood Runs in the Family; it'd be nice if that paid off at some point.

No, this was the right call for every conceivable reason: character autonomy (already covered by others), tactical optimization (see above), and story (there is more to be said about this, but there's no need, since we'll see it play out anyway).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, the best use Elan would get from the ioun stone would probably be his Cure spells. For instance, with Mass Cure Light Wounds, it'd provide an additional hit point to each recipient, and could heal another recipient. It'd also do another point of damage to any undead in the spell area and target an additional undead. Or mix and match.

Still suboptimal, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, the best use Elan would get from the ioun stone would probably be his Cure spells. For instance, with Mass Cure Light Wounds, it'd provide an additional hit point to each recipient, and could heal another recipient. It'd also do another point of damage to any undead in the spell area and target an additional undead. Or mix and match.

So at most 15 points of healing or damage spread out over 15 targets vs. 1d6 electricity damage to one target plus (1d6/2) points of electricity damage spread out over at most 17 additional targets...yeah, still "more or less a wash." There are corner cases where each would matter, but not many, and they balance each other out in terms of impact and likelihood.

[Jasdoif]

Damage is more or less a wash. Elan doesn't use damaging spells as a rule, and V has already hit the damage cap on the most of the ones she has been confirmed as using (chain lightning has a damage cap of 20d6 though). Either one might learn damage spells that might benefit from an additional damage die in the future.

Vaarsuvius uses disintegrate a fair bit, which gets 2d6 per caster level (on a failed save) and caps at 40d6.

[Stella]

The large size of the hat emporiums indicates that gnome culture places a great importance on hats. The small size of the magic item shop means that gnomes don't buy many magic items by comparison. Moreover one of the big-box stores is nothing but hats, so there's lots of room for differentiantion within the same product line.

It's also a joke. Ha-ha gnomes like to wear hats. I had hoped that the gnomes would be more than a joke race but that's all we've seen so far.

It is a joke on multiple levels. They are a race of hats! But really, sharing a common trait like a tendency to wear a hat does not make Gnomes into a joke race any more than a tendency to wear a beard makes Dwarves a joke race.

One particular poster was *very* adamant that monks were the best class in the game because they could put cross-class ranks into UMD and use partially-charged wands to beat any other class. Suffice to say, that thread ended with a lot of banned users and an informal ban on the topic.

OMG! The OP and first 4 responders, all banned. And I stopped reading there, so there might be a bunch more down the remaining 69 pages of the thread. Plus the closing post mentioned that the OP was welcome to start a new thread on the same topic, so there is probably another thread following up where the posts inviting the banning were made.

The stolen bauble is now officially confirmed to be an OP Ioun stone.

Confirmed, sure. Not that was in much doubt since Ioun stones are fairly easily identified by their head orbiting activities. And +1 caster level is hardly OP. By ~16th level a Wizard probably has +4 caster level or more from Feats, prestige classes, and items.

3) "Partially Charged Wands" would be a great profit item, but it seems like there could be a risk of no repeat customers; and the ones you did get might be pretty angry if they survived finding out that a "partially charged" Wand of Fireballs had only ONE charge.

Identify does tell you the exact amount of charges remaining. Either the shopkeeper or the buyer could cast it or have it cast if it wasn't a class spell. If they were smart/prudent.

[Keltest]

Confirmed, sure. Not that was in much doubt since Ioun stones are fairly easily identified by their head orbiting activities. And +1 caster level is hardly OP. By ~16th level a Wizard probably has +4 caster level or more from Feats, prestige classes, and items.

OP in this case is meaning Orange Prism, rather than Overpowered.

[Themrys]

Re: Giving away services for free. You can walk into a glasses store, tell them you want to buy a case, and walk out with one for free (I am two for two on this). You don't need to have bought your glasses at the store, you don't need to be in the market for buying glasses, just in and out with a free product.

You can also get your glasses frame cleaned and repaired for free. At least at the local shop here. Makes sense, it is not much work, and providing it for free makes customers more likely to return. That gnome is a clever gnome. But maybe just a kind gnome, considering that V is not likely to return to the store, ever ... but you never know. Blackwing might tell other people about the nice gnome who made him this beautiful ring.

It wasn't that long ago in terms of strip count where we saw Roy commenting on how he was going to dance on Belkar's grave.

I seem to recall some (admittedly small) amount of consternation at that, as well. Not from me, mind. But that also rubbed some people the wrong way.

Well, he was serious. At least I understood it this way - he told Haley he was looking forward to Belkar's untimely demise.

Likewise, V's behaviour in the past makes it likely that they actually feel bothered by Blackwing, and make no attempt to hide it. V has a history of just walking over other people's feelings.

The difference is that Belkar is an evil psychopath, while Blackwing is just a raven who likes baubles.

[Throknor]

So at most 15 points of healing or damage spread out over 15 targets vs. 1d6 electricity damage to one target plus (1d6/2) points of electricity damage spread out over at most 17 additional targets...yeah, still "more or less a wash." There are corner cases where each would matter, but not many, and they balance each other out in terms of impact and likelihood.

Like I said I didn't know Bards. While this all makes sense from our perspective, the point I was aiming for was that there appeared to be no discussion among the party even if the result was what would have been decided. Blackwing considers the spoils of battle he specifically captured as his own. He's come some ways to be an active participant but he still has a bit to go.

And yes, it could have been discussed off-panel. I'm building my point off the repeated reference to 'mine!' he made. I find it hard to believe if they had discussed it they would have let him keep it instead of bribing him with two non-magical shiny things.

And naturally, I could be reading way too much into this and it just a funny little interlude so the Giant won't have to remember to draw the stone for another two books.

[Jasdoif]

Like I said I didn't know Bards. While this all makes sense from our perspective, the point I was aiming for was that there appeared to be no discussion among the party even if the result was what would have been decided. Blackwing considers the spoils of battle he specifically captured as his own. He's come some ways to be an active participant but he still has a bit to go.

And yes, it could have been discussed off-panel. I'm building my point off the repeated reference to 'mine!' he made. I find it hard to believe if they had discussed it they would have let him keep it instead of bribing him with two non-magical shiny things.

And naturally, I could be reading way too much into this and it just a funny little interlude so the Giant won't have to remember to draw the stone for another two books.

Maybe Blackwing bribed Banjo with a doctorate (hence Doctor Banjo), and the rest of the party didn't want to argue with Elan over it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So at most 15 points of healing or damage spread out over 15 targets vs. 1d6 electricity damage to one target plus (1d6/2) points of electricity damage spread out over at most 17 additional targets...yeah, still "more or less a wash." There are corner cases where each would matter, but not many, and they balance each other out in terms of impact and likelihood.

1d8 plus (caster level) to each recipient, to nitpick. Which means Elan could blast a fair number of zombies or skeletons even if they save, while healing the party.

But Jasdoif has a good point about the Disintegrate.

[Porthos]

Well, he was serious. At least I understood it this way

I didn't see it that way at all, personally. Not to dredge up that thread's debate, but context matters, I think. In that case, Belkar had just insulted Roy to his face, so Roy gave a very dry and snarky response back.

And I wouldn't take Roy's statements to Haley about Belkar quite at face value presently, as quite a bit has happened to the party in the interim.

====

Part of all of this is, IMO, there is no tone established since we can't hear the characters speak and very little in the way of facial expressions to go on. That means it is fairly easy to interpet a scene in multiple ways. Does one give a character the benefit of the doubt? Does one look at statements more harshly for whatever reason? And does one bring in their own personal experiences when reading?

All part and parcel of a minlamist work of art, really.

Given that V and Blackwing have grown very close over the last 300 strips, to the point where they are I feel reasonbly described as extremely close friends, a little bit of good natured ribbing shouldn't be automatically viewed in a negative light. Again, at least IMO.

[ti'esar]

I've been avoiding this thread up until now for fear that it would be full of a massive debate between pro- and anti-V posters, and I must say I'm pleasantly surprised to see that said debate is much smaller than I expected. And apparently doesn't even include zimmer?!

Anyway, the bulk of the strip was cute, but it was the first panel and its dueling hat stores that really made it for me.

[zimmerwald1915]

1d8 plus (caster level) to each recipient, to nitpick. Which means Elan could blast a fair number of zombies or skeletons even if they save, while healing the party.

An incorrect nitpick, since I was clearly totting up only the benefits the ioun stone would provide to the spell, not the total damage or healing dealt by the spell

I've been avoiding this thread up until now for fear that it would be full of a massive debate between pro- and anti-V posters, and I must say I'm pleasantly surprised to see that said debate is much smaller than I expected. And apparently doesn't even include zimmer?!

While this strip might represent some backsliding on V's part (see post #104 of this thread, supra), her character development has only ever proceeded in fits and starts and there's no reason to expect anything different at this point. Furthermore, nothing in this strip has forced me to reevaluate my interpretation as of this post, where I said "V has dropped her pretensions (except when they would be funny)." End-of-strip punchlines have never been a rich source of character interpretation anyway. As I said in the linked post, "it's a comedy, there is always time for dour remarks..."

Besides, I would hope I'd have learned my lesson in molehill-inflating since strip #932

[zinycor]

Well, he was serious. At least I understood it this way - he told Haley he was looking forward to Belkar's untimely demise.

Likewise, V's behaviour in the past makes it likely that they actually feel bothered by Blackwing, and make no attempt to hide it. V has a history of just walking over other people's feelings.

The difference is that Belkar is an evil psychopath, while Blackwing is just a raven who likes baubles.

What???!! i really don't think Roy Was serious about dancing on Belkar's grave, that's a terrible thing to say, even if Belkar is a psychopath, he is his companion, and he hasn't betrayed him once. I am sure as hell (or at least I hope) I don't have any kind of friend who would say something like that to some person in a serious manner.

Damn, that would be very cold if that were the case.

And i believe you are too hard on V, he is a nice girl, not the best dealing with people, but a nice dude anyway

[brian 333]

All I can ask is, WWBD? (What Would Belkar Do?)

If their roles were reversed, Belkar wouldn't hesitate to dance on Roy's grave. Or call dibs on that Belt of Giant Strength. Or wear his head for a hat. I can't imagine he'd expect any less from his 'friends,' (who are just people you don't stab because they are useful to you in some way.)

[BrotherMirtillo]

What???!! i really don't think Roy Was serious about dancing on Belkar's grave, that's a terrible thing to say, even if Belkar is a psychopath, he is his companion, and he hasn't betrayed him once. I am sure as hell (or at least I hope) I don't have any kind of friend who would say something like that to some person in a serious manner.

Damn, that would be very cold if that were the case.

I don't think Roy was "serious" either. On one hand, I felt like Roy's dance plan was a rather low blow compared with "You were right about Durkon. I was wrong." However, I chalked it up to the kind of snipe a co-worker might make at a lunch table -- both players know it's an overly theatrical shot at an easy target, but it's not necessarily something that might happen.

But I don't think "companion" is the right word for Belkar, either. And yes, Belkar did betray the party when he skewered the Oracle. Don't Split the Party's commentary highlights the narrative weight of that action: Belkar deliberately wrecked one of the party's best hopes for success. (It's such a sabotaging move that Haley cuts him off from the Order twice.)

[IamWeasel]

I love all of the comics, whether they make me laugh, or hurt me, or just advance the story. My favorites are power ups, item reveals, and snarking, and this comic brought them all.

I enjoy figuring game mechanics as they apply to the comics as much as anybody. That said, I am not sure I understand the scrutiny each comic gets. Is it not good enough that a DM can change anything he wants? Does it matter that an author of a story has carte blanche to whatever he wishes to write?

[zinycor]

All I can ask is, WWBD? (What Would Belkar Do?)

If their roles were reversed, Belkar wouldn't hesitate to dance on Roy's grave. Or call dibs on that Belt of Giant Strength. Or wear his head for a hat. I can't imagine he'd expect any less from his 'friends,' (who are just people you don't stab because they are useful to you in some way.)

Given that Belkar was very upset when Durkon died, i seriously doubt that would be the case

[zinycor]

I don't think Roy was "serious" either. On one hand, I felt like Roy's dance plan was a rather low blow compared with "You were right about Durkon. I was wrong." However, I chalked it up to the kind of snipe a co-worker might make at a lunch table -- both players know it's an overly theatrical shot at an easy target, but it's not necessarily something that might happen.

But I don't think "companion" is the right word for Belkar, either. And yes, Belkar did betray the party when he skewered the Oracle. Don't Split the Party's commentary highlights the narrative weight of that action: Belkar deliberately wrecked one of the party's best hopes for success. (It's such a sabotaging move that Haley cuts him off from the Order twice.)

Note that i said, betrayed "him", when belkar killed the oracle, Roy wasn't anywhere to be seen, in my eyes that doesn't count. Anyway, my point is more that the fact that saying something like am gonna dance on your grave, and meaning it, would be faaar worse than any kind of snarky comment that can be said.

[Darth Paul]

Nope. Blackwing himself referred to V as "my wizard" during Gannji's and Enor's kidnapping.

I was asking/ wondering if anyone outside of the Blackwing/Vaarsuvius dyad had made that reference, though. Haven't had the time to page myself, back due to working overtime.

[Lexible]

While this all makes sense from our perspective, the point I was aiming for was that there appeared to be no discussion among the party even if the result was what would have been decided. Blackwing considers the spoils of battle he specifically captured as his own. He's come some ways to be an active participant but he still has a bit to go.

So you feel about Blackwing, about like you do about Haley, then?

[Silferdrake]

Nice one.

That bauble will most certainly come in handy. And it's been a while since the party went shopping, it carries a certain air of nostalgia about it.

[Throknor]

But I don't think "companion" is the right word for Belkar, either. And yes, Belkar did betray the party when he skewered the Oracle. Don't Split the Party's commentary highlights the narrative weight of that action: Belkar deliberately wrecked one of the party's best hopes for success. (It's such a sabotaging move that Haley cuts him off from the Order twice.)

I wouldn't consider that a betrayal. He honestly did not think the Oracle's answer would help them and that, in fact, the Oracle had screwed him out of his money with his earlier question. That his go-to response is violence is his personality. His actions may have inconvenienced the party but I would only call that a betrayal if there had been intent. Consider these other screw-ups off the top of my head that inconvenienced the party on a various scales:
- Elan hitting the Destruct button
- Roy not correcting the misunderstanding about being a king which destroyed an inn, their loot, their horses and Haley's voice
- V killing the young dragon (he could have used his suggestion to get the star metal and have the dragon forget they'd been there, for example)
- Haley hiding why she didn't want to go to Greysky, which led to
- Celia's losing Roy's body
- Durkon insisting on fighting Malack instead of talking him into discussing with Roy. (A better outcome from a different choice wasn't as clear-cut, but if he & Malack had both left the gate would have been destroyed in almost the exact manner but he would not have been a vampire.)
- Roy & Shojo discussing their plans where Miko & Hinjo could overhear

Belkar may be a psychopath, but he made his choice to stick with the party during the Thieves Guild fight and has stuck to it since. His ability to act on that choice is affected by his personality but he has remained loyal in his way. It's actually a little surprising that after witnessing Durkon's conversion and then having his viewpoint dismissed he isn't planning on leaving the party. They aren't paying him, he's barely aware of what the gates actually represent, and now he's forced to travel with an undead monstrosity that tried to kill him. If Roy had time to think about it he'd realize this but instead he's treating Belkar as a tool rather than an individual that made a choice to help him. I'd actually place this as a worse choice than simply traveling with him if I had to evaluate Roy after his death.

[Mad Humanist]

I guess this has already been pointed out but I'm not a regular poster and I really need to say this.

Varsuvius is demonstrating that ze is completely uninterested in a "subtle increase of a spell power". This is a character development.

[Shining Wrath]

I wouldn't consider that a betrayal. He honestly did not think the Oracle's answer would help them and that, in fact, the Oracle had screwed him out of his money with his earlier question. That his go-to response is violence is his personality. His actions may have inconvenienced the party but I would only call that a betrayal if there had been intent. Consider these other screw-ups off the top of my head that inconvenienced the party on a various scales:
- Elan hitting the Destruct button
- Roy not correcting the misunderstanding about being a king which destroyed an inn, their loot, their horses and Haley's voice
- V killing the young dragon (he could have used his suggestion to get the star metal and have the dragon forget they'd been there, for example)
- Haley hiding why she didn't want to go to Greysky, which led to
- Celia's losing Roy's body
- Durkon insisting on fighting Malack instead of talking him into discussing with Roy. (A better outcome from a different choice wasn't as clear-cut, but if he & Malack had both left the gate would have been destroyed in almost the exact manner but he would not have been a vampire.)
- Roy & Shojo discussing their plans where Miko & Hinjo could overhear

Belkar may be a psychopath, but he made his choice to stick with the party during the Thieves Guild fight and has stuck to it since. His ability to act on that choice is affected by his personality but he has remained loyal in his way. It's actually a little surprising that after witnessing Durkon's conversion and then having his viewpoint dismissed he isn't planning on leaving the party. They aren't paying him, he's barely aware of what the gates actually represent, and now he's forced to travel with an undead monstrosity that tried to kill him. If Roy had time to think about it he'd realize this but instead he's treating Belkar as a tool rather than an individual that made a choice to help him. I'd actually place this as a worse choice than simply traveling with him if I had to evaluate Roy after his death.

Which leads to speculation: what *is* Belkar doing in town. Because if he's just wenching or looking for a place to perform some random mayhem I don't think we'd necessarily have seen The Giant make a point of it. We don't have any attention drawn to what Haley and Elan might be up to (other than lunch), so why Belkar?

Maybe Mr. Bitterleaf is preparing to get away from the vampire that keeps trying to kill him.

[Throknor]

Which leads to speculation: what *is* Belkar doing in town. Because if he's just wenching or looking for a place to perform some random mayhem I don't think we'd necessarily have seen The Giant make a point of it. We don't have any attention drawn to what Haley and Elan might be up to (other than lunch), so why Belkar?

Maybe Mr. Bitterleaf is preparing to get away from the vampire that keeps trying to kill him.

"Hey B- Elan and I are going to sell all the loot and then do lunch."

I suppose; but I read it more that we were getting a general idea of what they each would be doing for the day. We'll probably see at least Durkon & Roy's as that's a major plot point. Whether we'll see the others will likely depend on whether a) it's interesting/funny and b) it would build tension to be revealed later. For example if Belkar seeks out the gnomish Buffy that might be revealed in a flash back after she shows up to attack, like how Elan and Thog escaped was revealed after he came through the window.

Who knows, maybe we'll see a strip where E, H & B spend lunch discussing Bandana's previous relationships without advancing anything just for the discussions it would invoke.

[F.Harr]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

I love it! The comic.

[Gusion]

You know, it just occurred to me that the artificer has a draconic heritage.

I wonder if V realizes that.