Let's Play Crusader Kings 2: So Much for the Glory of Rome

[Cristo Meyers]

We had a chance to take back Iberia from the Muslims. We had a chance to liberate the peninsula's followers of the Cross from their heathen conquerors. But neither blood nor faith could convince our supposed "allies" to take up arms and destroy one of the greatest threats that Christendom now faces. Instead, those who bow down to the man who sits on the throne in Rome drove a dagger into our backs just as Brutus did to Caesar. Even the Pope's missionaries abandoned us to our fate!

Our path is clear.

Rome is rightfully ours, but is held by a usurper who must eventually be driven from his throne if the Empire is to be restored. To take what is rightfully ours, I believe that we must follow the path of Constantine, who took up the faith of his people and, in so doing, drove Maxentius from his throne and brought new vitality to a declining Empire. So I propose that, like Constantinus Augustus, we take up the faith of our people, and thus gain the support of those whose lands we rule. From there, we can only grow stronger until, one day, we will be able to march on Rome, destroy those who were too weak and cowardly to face the Crescent, and seize the throne from the hopped-up priest who falsely claims it as his own.



Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!

Hear, hear! The followers of False Rome have only shown us duplicity and betrayal, while the Sultan has only shown mercy. Why reward betrayal with continued fealty? Why reward deceit with continued service?

Take up the Crescent and the sword and show False Rome the price of betrayal!

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Indeed. Clearly the Pope and their Frankish lapdogs follow false Gods, to so abandon us in our time of need. God alone can save us, so it is to God alone to whom we must turn, not Jesus son of Maria, who our people call "Isa ibn Maryam". If His Viceroy has already shown us, to him at best a misguided follower of the Book, at worst a polytheist, the mercy of God, if we were also of the Faith, he would love us as a brother! With the power of the House of Umayya behind us, how could we lose?

(random side-note, the crescent as a symbol of Islam only emerged in the past century, before then it was mostly a symbol of the Turks, hence it's use on the flags of Turkish rulers such as the Mamluks and Ottomans, and then appropriated by ex-Ottoman lands, before becoming a symbol of Islam).

[mythmonster2]

What sort of blasphemy is this, that you cowards would renounce your faith in Jesus at the first sign of trouble? That our so-called allies would betray us is a sign of their weakness, not God's. We must stand strong in our faith, or else we can hardly call ourselves Romans. Unfortunately, it seems that I will be in the minority in staying true to our traditions.

(Sure, converting to Islam is probably the better option in the long run, but someone's gotta say no )

[OrcusMcP]

(Sure, converting to Islam is probably the better option in the long run, but someone's gotta say no )

Don't worry about going against the majority opinion/sound policy. Severus is generous and sociable, but his timidity makes him a much more reserved pliable man compared to his father and could be swayed by a strong minority argument.

[Malimar]

Harrumph, I say, a harrumph upon this business with the usurper in Rome. His time will come, as will the rest of the usurpers in Byzantium, Lombardy, and all the extent of the glorious Roman Empire. But I say it is not upon us this day to bring judgement upon any of these usurpers -- such would just split our realm and make us a fat, juicy target for their knives!

Nor ought we abandon our lord and savior for the false prophet Mohammad -- that just takes us ever further from the glorious religion of Rome's heyday, the glorious Hellenic gods followed by such greats as Augustus and Marcus Aurelius! I stand firmly with the illustrious Mythmonster on this point!

No, I say we should play the good vassal for now -- emphasis on "play". We should ply our liege of Umayyad with gifts and flattery to keep him tame, while engaging in a little more, shall we say, creative bookkeeping? Our skilled chancellors served your noble father well in the matter of digging up that claim on Marrakech -- his only fault was aiming too high, too soon. I say we continue with great Stadius's strategy, but aim not at our liege, but at our fellow vassals.

I say, crown laws permitting, we gradually build up our power by fabricating and pressing claims on our fellow vassals in Marrakech. And if crown laws don't permit, I say we factionalize to reduce the Crown Authority until they do.

[Cristo Meyers]

Harrumph! Convert now, repent later I say!

[Alex Knight]

Are we Peter, to deny Our Lord to His enemies? Nay, resist such blandishments, and the infidels will fall upon themselves in time. We should instead renew our own faith and convince our subjects of the rightness of our views!

[OrcusMcP]

In the hearth both the fire and the council's arguments raged on into the night, with the zeal of both converts and old priests boiling over into harsh words. No unity could be found in Marrakech, and Severus could not make a decision about either his or his tribe's mortal soul with so much acid being thrown in God's name. He saw his doubt much like Christ's at Gethsemane. "If it were possible, let this cup pass from me," thought he.

Only a single councilor drew away from the religious war at the fire to offer any other advice, and Severus took Malimar's council of playing the good vassal. Let the question of our souls be answered another time.

(Quick FYI, some major (good) home-front stuff going on this week, so the next update may not come until next week)

[OrcusMcP]

Chapter 4: Reinvigoration (802-815)

Some translated excerpts from the Sidi-Rahal monastery records, earliest recovered writings of the Gigas family. It is not entirely clear how much is Severus's journal records or correspondence, but the fact that they are in a Latin we can easily understand gives us unique insight into the North African region of this period.

"In many ways I was thankful for my father's incarceration, if only because it meant that I could be at peace at home. Though I learned strategy at his feet, I felt little of the thrill of combat he and my fellows talked of. Too many of my friends perished in the failed rebellion. Too many."

"I had left that first council meeting shaken to my core. How they can claim authority over so many souls is saddening when sympathy and diversity has been the law of the land since the time of my father. Perhaps they were always this zealous and only fear had kept their opinions to themselves. Only one councilor followed me, offering actual counsel rather than a sermon. He spoke with force and drive, and we developed a plan for the coming years. We succeeded, but the landscape changed."

"My father never truly understood the advantages the tribe earned by joining with the Umayyads. But I did. With each passing month we became more sophisticated, more wealthy and more powerful. It was through their diplomatic reach and trade contact that I met my wife Radogund and was able to make an official pilgrimage to Rome."

Spoiler

Show

"I am sorry it has come to this, Brother, but you cannot live with Imam anymore."

Spoiler

Show

"I can only look back on those years and marvel at how much has changed. Hispania may never again know Christian authority while the Franks crumble in their attempts to centralize their power. Marrakech grows ever larger and more prosperous, and I even heard many of the tribesmen speaking Latin instead of Berber. However, I don't know if my children will ever know a day when we are masters of our own fate."

Spoiler

Show

"Gallienus, I am proud that you are taking to your duties so well. As we discussed, your fortunes will grow as the Tribe's does. Keep me informed of any progress and I will soon advise you of any suitable wives. As-Salaam-Alaikum."

Spoiler

Show

"Many felt that Abdul-Aziz would be satisfied on solidifying his control of Hispania and Mauretania as Bhadshah. Few expected his dramatic attempts to push deeper into Christian lands. Fortunately, they were excellent distractions from our attempts to extend our own influence and power within his realm....

Spoiler

Show

...We had the numbers to crush and control the Fezzian lands, but the Emir had many friends. We feared that they would gather and rout us, but we could not know then that they feared our control of the mountains, that we had armies waiting in ambush in the mountain passes. That we made great acclaim of a gift of gold from the Holy See certainly grew our renown...

Spoiler

Show

...Eventually the Emir offered us terms of surrender, and both Fez and Figuig were under our control. Gallienus was left in charge of pacifying the new lands, as his Sunni faith would help sooth the fears of the locals."

"As we come to the end of the summer in the Year of Our Lord 815, Marrakech grows strong under the Umayyads, though how much longer either of us will tolerate each other is hard to say. I have the utmost faith that Our Lord Christ will steer us ever towards glory and salvation, but I still find endless inspiration in the traditional greeting used in the markets and courts of the Empire. Though many of the tribe speak Latin, they still use the Arabic form as it speaks to the greater community we are a part of, Christian, Moor and Berber alike. How much longer until our contradictions tear us apart?

Pax super nos omnia."

Spoiler

Show

(OOC: Apologies for the delayed update, both my wife and I are in the middle of planning/executing major work changes for the new year and that took up a lot of time this week. The next updates should be much more timely)

[IthilanorStPete]

The growth of Umayyad power gives us an opportunity to claim the dignity of Kings in Mauretania! Ever towards glory, I say!

[mythmonster2]

Hm... It seems as if swearing allegiance has indeed turned to our favor. Well, so long as we have an overlord, forever on to glory!

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Agreed! While the Umayyads shield us, we prosper! To glory!

[Sange]

The growth of Umayyad power gives us an opportunity to claim the dignity of Kings in Mauretania! Ever towards glory, I say!

I agree. (Also, I thought Badshah was Persian culture?)

[OrcusMcP]

I agree. (Also, I thought Badshah was Persian culture?)

*shrug*

According to the wiki, the Iranian culture group uses Shahanshah(king of kings), Arabic culture group uses Bhadshah(though apparently this is more of a Mughal term and is a translation of Shahanshah anyway) and Turkish uses Padishah(ditto, though used more by the Ottomans).

I think this seems weird because we're used to seeing the emperor level Muslims in CK2 titled as "Caliph" since that's what the Abbasids are, and the Umayyads can't usurp the caliphate by fiat.

[IthilanorStPete]

*shrug*

According to the wiki, the Iranian culture group uses Shahanshah(king of kings), Arabic culture group uses Bhadshah(though apparently this is more of a Mughal term and is a translation of Shahanshah anyway) and Turkish uses Padishah(ditto, though used more by the Ottomans).

I think this seems weird because we're used to seeing the emperor level Muslims in CK2 titled as "Caliph" since that's what the Abbasids are, and the Umayyads can't usurp the caliphate by fiat.

From the little research I've done: there also doesn't seem to be much historical precedent to go on; the only real Arabic empires were the Caliphates. The Umayyads of al-Andalus generally went by "Emir" or "Sultan" before proclaiming the Caliphate of Cordoba. (Take this all with a grain of salt, I'm not exactly an expert in the field)

[Artanis]

I...uh...can I vote for all three options?

I mean, Christians are "People of the Book", after all, so while Sunni overlords might prefer having Sunnis crush Pagans/Shia/Ibadis, Christians doing so would be better than nothing, right? Especially if we do so as accepted - even beloved - members of the cultural community who are also "totally" "loyal" and "completely" "trustworthy" vassals "in every way".

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Regarding titles, just gonna throw out there that there never was a "Sultan" until oh the very end of the 11th century iirc, when the Ghorids or Ghaznavids or whoever they were invented the title. You were a Caliph if you claimed to rule all Muslims (the Spanish Umayyads claimed this title, because they reached new heights, because they were threatened by the Fatimid Caliphate, and the Abbasid Caliphate, despite what the game would have you think, was set to collapse entirely in the late 9th century), or else you were an Amir, or Prince/Commander. Maybe if you were feeling weeiiird you could be a Malik, but that term was used for pre-Islamic and non-Islamic rulers, so it had... Connotations. Nowadays most monarchies are Maliks because colonialism.

[OrcusMcP]

Chapter 5: Conversation on Conversion (815-828)

More excerpts from the Sidi Rahal monastery records, a collection of correspondence between Severus Gigas and his wife Radogund. The Umayyad records for this period indicate that Severus had been placed in charge of the African detachment of the Badshah's armies.

"While your concern for the realm is admirable, wife, the tribe have chosen Gallienus to be the successor chief and that is final. Yes, he is Muslim, and no, I will do nothing about it. Life is not so simple in the Atlas as it apparently is in Genoa. If you are truly concerned for the soul of the tribe then find something productive to do. I still do not know what makes the Mallorcas such a prize, but the Badshah insists the campaign continue."

Spoiler

Show

"My husband, I am concerned because piety affects us all, but your advice is sound. I will indeed be taking more direct measures to ensure the health of our souls. I am sure that some reports have already made their way to you, but you cannot believe the slanderous lies of the Moors who will take any opportunity to impugn the honour of a good Christian woman. I hope you are teaching our Son well and that he is learning his Bible properly."

Spoiler

Show

"This is intolerable. The Campaign is wrapping up and I will have business at the Horn but we will have harsh words when I return. Gallienus was my brother and you have had him gutted like a dog. Be glad I do not have you thrown in a pit for your crimes."

"My husband, you and I both know that a coward like you can only be brave when behind armies. I have nothing to fear from you, I fear only having to answer to the Lord. Your sympathy for the Muslims will be your doom. May the Lord lead you ever to glory."

Spoiler

Show

"I am returning to Marrakesh. Victory was elusive. I tire of facing coalitions while my hard-won alliances are not even worth the paper they are printed on. Your father promised alliance as your dowry. Perhaps I should send you back. You clearly desire to leave."

"My apologies, husband, that my father is weak. I do not wish to leave your side, as I know we are doing the Lord's work here. We may not always agree on methods but you must see that it is all for the greater glory of Christ? More and more of the tribe speak Latin, more merchants and professionals are settling, and while Islam has taken root in the mountains, it need not always be so.

There will be much to settle when you return, husband, your daughter Sylvia requires a husband, and I have received word from Qurtubah that your mother Myasa has passed. With your permission, I can arrange a proper funeral and fulfill her diplomatic duties in her stead."

"It seems I am destined never to return home, for the Badshah once again finds himself at war with the Franks. They seek to retake Navarra. I am to immediately march to the mountains. Thank you for arranging the funeral."

Spoiler

Show

"The Badshah must think himself invincible. He achieves victory after victory, but only after using the Marrakechi as fodder to soften the blow of the Frankish horse. I grow tired of ordering my men to their deaths. My heart grows harder as I become better. I fear I will one day be stone."

"Keep heart, husband. This is only the natural feeling when the righteous put their trust in the infidel. We must return to our faith. Let us spend time in Sidi Rahal when you are next home."

Spoiler

Show

"I have arranged a marriage between Stadius and a young Burgundian princess, please help her acclimate to the Atlas, I have dispatched what little treasure I have scrounged from the campaign to help pay for the wedding."

"Thank you husband, and you have chosen wisely. Liutgarde is an extremely shrewd woman, not unlike your mother, Myasa. She will make an excellent wife for our son. For his part, Stadius has become a most admirable young man. As much as I have had cause to be angry with you and you with me, if we are judged according to all our deeds then Stadius will be who saves us from the hellfire. I no longer fear for the soul of the tribe."

"Stadius, my son, you are to take all available tribal forces and seize El Rif. This is your final lesson and test. Succeed by the time I am back from the Frankish war and I will name you heir and you will be the true inheritor of the Gigas legacy."

Spoiler

Show

This marks the end of the correspondence in the records. It was around this time that we know the Frankish invasion of Iberia was completely turned back, so Severus likely went home. Stadius did indeed conquer El Rif by the time his father returned to the mountains, and Severus was greeted by two grandchildren as well.

This was around 828 CE and major upheaval was about to be underway, both in Marrakesh and the wider Umayyad realm. The Frankish King Adam died not long after the end of the invasion, and thus so did the peace treaty between Badshah Abdul-Aziz and the Franks.

A full on invasion of the Aquitane region was announced.

Spoiler

Show

The tribe meanwhile, had internal questions. The prosperity since the time of the first Stadius Gigas had allowed the tribe to become powerful, but it was nearing the limits of how much power it could accumulate. Talks circled the fires in the mountain about whether it was time to adopt feudalism. It would take time to build a proper castle and develop the realm to be stratified the same as the rest of the realm, but many felt that Marrakech could be a new Rome in time. However, if war came, the manpower that was used to build could not be out fighting.

There was also talk of what to do about the invasion. Gone were the sympathies the Gigas clan had for their Muslim brethren, and perhaps it was time to cast off the yoke of the Umayyads and forge a more pious, Christian destiny, but many sought to use the Umayyad framework to first consolidate more of the coast, the better to secure the borders.

If only we had records of what was spoken around those fires....

[IthilanorStPete]

I'm in favor of embracing feudalism and consolidating coastal power. Let us develop a proper realm before challenging the Umayyads.

I'm surprised the Karling haven't consolidated power and formed the HRE or Francia, judging by the titles Adam had.

Loved the epistolary style of this update!

[Flickerdart]

The Franks may be in disarray, but their kingdoms are still mighty (though how mighty we cannot know without the maps and ledgers of wiser men to aid us). The Badshah's soldiers will never be as occupied and as they are now - waiting until the conquest of Aquitaine is complete will send gold to that tyrant's coffers and peasants to his levies.

Are there sympathizers to our cause, vassals who also choke under the yoke of oppression? It will be easier to expand if we can remove others from the Badshah's protection, but for now we must cast off the yoke ourselves.

[OrcusMcP]

The Franks may be in disarray, but their kingdoms are still mighty (though how mighty we cannot know without the maps and ledgers of wiser men to aid us). The Badshah's soldiers will never be as occupied and as they are now - waiting until the conquest of Aquitaine is complete will send gold to that tyrant's coffers and peasants to his levies.

I'm intentionally leaving the options vague and the realities uncertain in order to get everyone to think beyond the numbers and to think more about character. There's no wrong answer to any of these questions.

[OrcusMcP]

Also to note: I've not forgotten that people want to see Carthage burn, but we can't do that. Yet. *dun dun dun!*

[Cristo Meyers]

There's no wrong answer to any of these questions.

Well, the answer that gets us all drawn and quartered as traitors probably wouldn't be considered the right one...

Also to note: I've not forgotten that people want to see Carthage burn, but we can't do that. Yet. *dun dun dun!*

Ah well, recent events have taken a lot of the 'bombastic' out of my Bombastic Roman Senator.

--

The years have been kind to us: prosperity has returned and we have the opportunity to turn Marrakesh into a jewel on the sea. Let us elevate our tribe and embrace feudalism while consolidating our hold on the coast.

[Woot Spitum]

I believe we should consolidate our holdings and adopt feudalism, casting off the yoke of our overlords can wait until they show signs of internal strife or find themselves on the losing end of a war with a major power.

[mythmonster2]

Let us adopt feudalism, so that we may better consolidate our hold on the coasts. We may as well take advantage of our position while we can, since rebellion will be very difficult.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Consolidate power first. Get more feudal holdings in our realm before reforming into feudalism. You need those feudal holdings to make the transition less painful.

[Rockphed]

Let us deprive the badshah of some of his armies and his greatest general at the same time. We must Cast off the Yoke!

[Artanis]

Because I have nothing better to do at the moment, an OOC note (that everybody is free to ignore) before I begin my Harruphing:

Spoiler

Show

1) I keep mentioning old Romans because the original Romans were ridiculously conservative (note the LOWER-CASE 'c'). As a Classics professor of mine once said, "our morals are generally based on 'thou shalt not'...if something successfully gets through all ten 'thou shalt not'-s, then it can't be that bad. The Romans, on the other hand, asked one question: 'did the ancestors have it?' If so, then it couldn't be that bad."


2)Romans had a concept called Beneficium, where the wealthy were morally obligated to help the poor. So, to fulfill this obligation, they would do things like go out to the poor areas and pass out the equivalent of X-mas turkeys to everybody who couldn't afford one for themselves. Likewise, the Romans also had a concept called Officium, where if you accepted a favor from somebody, you were morally obligated to repay them in kind. However, the poor only had one thing they could use to repay a free Saturnalia Dormouse: their vote. The upshot being that the rich were morally obligated to buy votes. Thus in CKII, becoming a Merchant Republic would be the closest to the system of the pre-Triumvirate Republic.

The ingame mechanics of Post-Triumvirate Rome would probably be closest to Feudal with at least High CA and plenty of vassals with the Ambitious trait


...yeah, I'm bored right now

Moving right along...


I believe that we should Adopt Feudalism. There was much glory under the Republic, yes. Many of the great heroes of the past fought under the banner of the Consuls: the Etruscans, Magna Graecia, even Hannibal could not withstand the Republic. But who was it that conquered Gaul? Gaius Iulius Caesar. Who was it that created the Pax Romana? His heir, Caesar Augustus. Rome grew mighty under the Republic, but Rome grew legendary under one ruler to whom absolute loyalty was given, whether willingly or at the point of a Gladius.

[OrcusMcP]

So, a little OOC bookkeeping:

Looks like Feudalism is a clear preference, and that will be good news for those of you who like maps.

I'm going to be stupidly busy for the next week, and I want to make sure that the save works well with the patch and with Way of Life. I hope to have an update up before Christmas, but no promises.

Also, are there any other historical/storytelling styles you want to read? Any particular historian voices/theories you find entertaining that I could ape? The letters were a fun stretch for me, and I have a couple other ideas, but I also want to collect some recommendations.

/OOC

Severus and Radogund knew that it was time for Marrakech to leave its Tribal roots and step into the modern realities of the wider Mediterranean world. If a Feudal contract was going to be drawn up and the Roman Gigas family were to be the heads of the Marrakechi from this point on, then it would be time to determine some formal law as well. The old Tribal Council would have to be disbanded, and a new Royal Senate would replace it. But who would be on this senate? There were three major proposals before Severus:

-Let the Royal Senate be led by the Royal Family. Only members of the Gigas Family could be allowed to sit in the Senate, with a small exception for spouses and parents.
-The Senate, like the Roman one of old, should be made of the Best Men. Only the most talented courtiers in Marrakech could be allowed on the senate.
-Finally, the Senate must be composed of the Landholders. Only those counts, dukes and burghers who held land outside of the Gigas family could have a say on the senate.

What would be the law?

[Sange]

The Senate shoud be led by the landholders- those who have more power can be appeased by influence.

I also think we should form Mauretania before throwing off the yoke- we must have a strong powerbase to resist their revenge.