Elemental proficiencies and earth glide

[Gwendol]

A couple of questions regarding elementals:
They have a strangely vague description regarding weapon proficiencies:

•Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.

The problem being that the shape of the elemental is not well defined, although in the MM it is described as having legs and arms. Is that enough for simple weapon proficiency? The quoted line above seems to suggest that only elementals that have weapon attack mentioned are proficient with simple weapons (+ whatever weapon mentioned), is that the consensus reading?

The next question is in regards to Earth Glide: if equipped with a simple weapon, can it bring the weapon along when gliding? It's an (Ex) ability, which makes it less magical, no?

[Phelix-Mu]

A couple of questions regarding elementals:
They have a strangely vague description regarding weapon proficiencies:

The problem being that the shape of the elemental is not well defined, although in the MM it is described as having legs and arms. Is that enough for simple weapon proficiency?

The next question is in regards to Earth Glide: if equipped with a simple weapon, can it bring the weapon along when gliding?

Any existing RAW on earth glide that I know of is extremely sparse, and largely up to adjudication. I've viewed it as swimming through solid earth, and if this is the case, then it's sensible to allow one to wear clothes or carry stuff while doing it.

Generally speaking, creatures have abilities that extend to their gear (like their saves, resistances, etc), but I don't think this encompasses all abilities.

Good luck finding some concrete ruling; I'll be interested to know if anyone on this board can turn anything up. I think I even hosted a thread on earth glide once upon a time....

[Gwendol]

Can it drag someone with it then?

[Phelix-Mu]

Can it drag someone with it then?

Without engulf? I'd say no, since people can't count as accompanied gear (almost all spells that can transport people call out gear and people limits separately).

With engulf, I'd probably say yes, if only because Rule of Cool.

Basically, balance-wise, earth glide is already really strong without leaving hapless souls entombed in the ground. Put huge earth elemental in constricted tunnels, and teach your players a new level of fear as they are attacked by a house-sized creature that can attack them freely inside a 5' wide tunnel.

[Gwendol]

And what about weapons? Are they considered proficient? To me it is ambiguous since they appear to have a kind of amorphous quality, so they could have a humanoid shape, if they want to. Is that enough to grant proficiency?

[Phelix-Mu]

And what about weapons? Are they considered proficient? To me it is ambiguous since they appear to have a kind of amorphous quality, so they could have a humanoid shape, if they want to. Is that enough to grant proficiency?

I'd avoid making them amorphous.

I suppose the ones to compare would be...elemental weirds and normal elementals. The pictures of many normal elementals are barely bipedal, let alone humanoid in form, but the descriptions themselves are vague; weirds on the other hand are pretty clearly humanoid in shape, and so would gain proficiency.

Further complicating the matter is the fact that many summoned creatures just arrive with their gear, not their other possessions, so even if they could wield weapons, they wouldn't show up with them because they aren't in the statblock.

Whether or not they were proficient, I would let them earth glide with their equipment. But I don't think they are "amorphous" just because we tend to think of the basic elements (dirt, water, fire, etc) as not having any particular shape. They are animate, and thus have integrity to their shape unless otherwise noted (and I don't recall any of the normal mentions about being able to squeeze through narrow openings or such that accompany creatures with less fixed forms).

It's pretty much a DM call whether the pictures are enough to suggest proficiency. I'd say no for normal elementals. But there are always skillful weapons. Friend of mine used a sizing skillful greataxe with a shadow elemental familiar on one of his characters.

[Gwendol]

Fair enough, thanks!

I've used the rules for incorporeal combat wrt earth glide and cover (elemental sticking out enough to attack).

[Phelix-Mu]

Fair enough, thanks!

I've used the rules for incorporeal combat wrt earth glide and cover (elemental sticking out enough to attack).

The major thing that many elementals have over most incorporeal stuff is size; not a lot of ghosts or w/e out there with 10' and 15' reach. This can make them fighting from within the ground substantially more dangerous (although they still would have to cope with not being able to see). A reasonable buff to earth elementals, in particular, is to let them see through earth (x-ray vision), or a very large-radius improved Tremorsense or something. Probably worth a CR or two, but seeing through the solid earth is one of the things earth glide doesn't really let one do and that my swimming analogy doesn't cover; I'll have to reread the incorporeal stuff to see if your approach is deals better with some of the salient issues.