Wizard Build Help (feats)

[RoboEmperor]

When I play a wizard, it's usually a gish that wears heavy armor, so my build is always stuffed like crazy to the limit with feats, but now I want to try a normal wizard, and I'm at a complete loss of what feats to get.

I've read treantmonk's guide to wizard like a thousand times right now, so I gotta ask, why does he recommend spell focus conjuration and spell focus transmutation? Most conjuration spells have no saves, ignore spell resistance, or summons stuff which is why it's puzzling to me why anyone would spend 2 feats on spell focus conjuration. Most transmutation spells are all buffs, so is he recommending spell focus transmutation to make them harder to dispel? Or does he rely on the very few offensive transmutation spells? Could someone explain this to me?

A pure 20 human wizard has 12 feats, and I've only got 4 selected:
eschew materials
craft magical arms and armor
craft wondrous items
craft construct

There isn't any particular prestige class that catches my eye for now (I've made a thread about it before), and I want to cast spells from every single school so the specialists are out, so lets just say for now I'm going to go a pure 20 wizard. What feats should I get?

Current wizard concept is minion master. He's going to
1. Have a maxed out skeletal army via animate dead
2. Lots and lots of command undead castings on created undead, high levels will have a mithral buckler of undead controlling the "head" incorporeal undead that created its own spawn army
3. One or two planar bound devils
4. One greater stone golem pre-epic, after epic one or more colossi
5. Dominate awesome monsters, though this is only viable end-game.
In combat he's your standard control wizard. Stay invisible and buff party/minions while throwing some battlefield control spells against large mobs and debuffs against BBEGs. Fluff wise, character is NOT a fighter. He's a magical engineer if anything.

Some feats I've considered are
1. Fiery Burst: Every thread I've read about this feat says it sucks, and I agree. 31.5 damage at level 17, 15.75 against those who make the save (which should be everyone every single time), which is bad. Besides doesn't suit my wizard's fluff.
2. Summon Elemental Reserve Feat: I'll take this unless there is a better feat.
3. Augment Summoning: Dare I add summons to my army? But they only last 1 round per level, but this feat also works on elemental monoliths, I dunno.
4. Improved Initiative: Ehh... I got a full wall of minions, they can't hurt me even if I go last.
5. Spell Penetration: For a better wail of the banshee? This wizard doesn't seem awfully offensive or target happy so I dunno.
6. Spell Focus Necromancy: For a better wail of the banshee and finger of death?
7. Alacritous Cognition: 1 spontaneous spellcasting.

So with 8 feats to spare and the time for my next session fast approaching, I'm currently just planning on dumping all 8 feats on
2 spell penetrations
2 spell focus necromancy for badass wail of the banshees, finger of deaths, etc.
spell focus transmutation for some non-death save or dies, and harder to dispel buffs
spell focus: conjuration: prereq
augment summoning
summon elemental reserve feat

It'd be nice if someone convinced me spell focus transmutation and conjuration are worth it, as I prefer elemental monolith over wail of the banshee, thus no need for me to get spell penetrations and spell focus necromancies.

I don't think any metamagic is good. Extend spell won't make 1 min or 1 round per caster level spells any better, and 10min and 1 hour long spells don't need it. All the good buffs are touch so persistent spell kind of sucks, and everything else is mostly for blasters. Sculpt spell is nice but I dunno.

Also I'm planning on dumping Dex and putting what I can spare into CHA for easier time winning CHA checks with command undead and planar binding since I won't be using any ray spells (I think).

What are your opinions?

Oh and I've read the dreadmaster handbook too. I don't think my DM will include Libris Mortis >.<, The feats that caught my eye were corpsecrafter and deadly chill, which I will include in my build if he allows. Maybe also necromantic presence and necromantic might... and tomb-tainted soul for healing! Probably not though.

DM will include all of the Complete ___ books, spell and magic item compediums, and arms and equipment guide.

[Venger]

are you sure you want to play a wizard? from your post, it sounds like you'll probably have more fun as a dread necromancer.

anyway, listen to treantmonk, for he is wise:

you're right that most conj spls don't have saves, but that's not really what sf (conj) is for. it's a feat tax for augment summoning, since if you specialize in conj, you are almost certainly a summoner, and augment summoning makes all your pokemon stronger for a somewhat trivial cost since sf can be picked up as a bonus feat and it opens the door to stuff like malconvoker, a prc from complete scoundrel I think you ought to consider since you seem heavily interested in summoning.

spell focus in general opens a lot of feats up, and transmutation is by far the largest school in the game. there are tons of trans spls that allow saves and are still useful, such as slow.

never dump dex. going first is extremely important, especially at mid-high levels. as a wizard, you really don't care about any noncasting stats besides con if you're not undead, so you can afford at least a low bonus here.

cha is not worth putting points into for a wizard since all the uses for it (LBP, PA, etc) are stuff you do during downtime, so you can buff it to the level you need without wasting valuable stat points.

there's no real reason to stay in wizard any longer than you have to. from the feats you're considering, you're not trapped in a core-only game, so you should really look at your options. check out the malconvoker handbook since you seem to enjoy minionmancy so much.

all metamagic is good. it's easier if you just research metamagic than if I try to explain it (due to the scope) but it's all good.

summon monster's duration is irrelevant since after very low levels, it's highly unusual for combats to last more than 3 or 4 rounds. the duration will be fine, especially if you have items or classes that extend your summons' duration.

if you're dead-set on generalist, take the elven generalist sub lvls. they're pretty great.

[RoboEmperor]

Thanks for your input!
I have looked at malconvoker, like a LOT, for the balor, for the twin fiendish colossal centipedes, but here's the rub. My PC is Neutral Evil! I highly doubt any necromancer can call themselves neutral, especially since I'll be turning all bandits and such into spectres, going around dominating powerful creatures and leading them to their eventual death in combat serving me, DESECREATING CORPSES for skeletons, etc. XD

treantmonk specifically states augment summoning is sh*t because it's the cleric or druid's job to summon and you're wasting your potential. He still suggests sf(conj) and gsf(conj) despite that so the feat tax isn't his reason, something else is >.<

About Dex, I'll take your word for it.

Oh, and the main reason why I'm wizard and not dread necromancer, cleric, etc. is Golems. Greater stone golem on paper looks too amazing to be true so I'm building this character to try it out. Necromancy just kinda grew on me while I was researching minions XD.

I have considered elven generalist, and since I'm not very feat-taxed it is tempting, but I wanna keep up my only human streak for now XD.

[Venger]

Thanks for your input!
I have looked at malconvoker, like a LOT, for the balor, for the twin fiendish colossal centipedes, but here's the rub. My PC is Neutral Evil! I highly doubt any necromancer can call themselves neutral, especially since I'll be turning all bandits and such into spectres, going around dominating powerful creatures and leading them to their eventual death in combat serving me, DESECREATING CORPSES for skeletons, etc. XD

You're welcome.

You can always ask your DM if he can just waive the alignment req. nobody cares, alignment's just fluff anyway, you're not mechanically stronger for entering as an evil wizard. besides, demons and stuff can still snap and turn on you for bossing them around same as anyone else.

treantmonk specifically states augment summoning is sh*t because it's the cleric or druid's job to summon and you're wasting your potential. He still suggests sf(conj) and gsf(conj) despite that so the feat tax isn't his reason, something else is >.<

No he doesn't. You're thinking of Logicninja's "being batman," a different, unrelated wizard handbook. treantmonk speaks favorably of augment summoning. logicninja's is a bit older, and we didn't have all the options available we do now when he wrote it. malconvoker, for example, did not exist at the time, so a dedicated summoner wizard was a less straightforward idea.

treantmonk specifically states sf in 2 schools is to enter archmage, so there's your answer re: sf (conj) and (trans)

About Dex, I'll take your word for it.

Oh, and the main reason why I'm wizard and not dread necromancer, cleric, etc. is Golems. Greater stone golem on paper looks too amazing to be true so I'm building this character to try it out. Necromancy just kinda grew on me while I was researching minions XD.

I have considered elven generalist, and since I'm not very feat-taxed it is tempting, but I wanna keep up my only human streak for now XD.

as levar burton often says: "you don't have to take (beat) my word for it"

combat in D&D at all levels is all about who goes first, and this only gets truer the higher you climb in level. this is often referred to as "rocket tag" since whoever goes first should be able to outright kill or otherwise render their opponent useless.

golems are terrible. they cost way too much money and cost a grievous amount of xp. even when you're finished, they really won't stand up to lvl appropriate enemies once you have the time, money, and feats to craft them.

necromancy's cute and a lot of fun and your focus on it stood out in your posts. there are a ton of fun necro-focused classes you might want to look into, such as pale master if you want to focus on the "skeleton army" aspect of your guy. it gives animate dead as a sla (so you don't have to pay), a cool, nasty-ass zombie arm that makes you stronger and lets you inflict an increasing amount of horrible statuses on enemies as you level up, confers undead immunities, beefs up your necro stuff, and for the capstone, you can punch people in the face so hard with your zombie arm that they die and turn into a skeleton for your army without counting against your HD cap. with patience, you can really bloat your zombie/skel pool with this.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah I thought golems were crap too, but check out greater stone golem!

271hp
+42 attack, !!! Can't miss! Ever! Who has an AC of 44 to even have a 10% chance of dodging it?
31 average damage, 62 full round. Imagine with haste and other buffs...
27 AC, not amazing I know...
DR:10 adamantine, 271hp got a lot more tankier...

A slow every 2 rounds as a FREE ACTION!
transmute mud to rock FULL HEALS IT!
Immunity to CRITICAL HITS
Immunity to SPELLS
Constructable at CL14!!!

Only spells that can hurt him are transmute rock to mud and stone to flesh, but who carries those spells right?

costs 105000gp to craft, and 7,640XP. Pricey but... you gotta admit, not even a 20 fighter can outperform him. In a straight up man fight he'll solo balors too! Note I said man fight as in balor won't run away or fly or etc. If money is not an issue you basically pay 1/2 a level to get a permanent cohort that outperforms fighters, dare I say epic fighters too?

I gotta try this guy! Otherwise I'd go a sorcerer, because necromancy + planar binding + dominate monster don't take up a lot of spells, and I like being restricted to one role :)

Iron golem on the other hand... bleh total waste.

[Venger]

Yeah I thought golems were crap too, but check out greater stone golem!

271hp
+42 attack, !!! Can't miss! Ever! Who has an AC of 44 to even have a 10% chance of dodging it?
31 average damage, 62 full round. Imagine with haste and other buffs...
27 AC, not amazing I know...
DR:10 adamantine, 271hp got a lot more tankier...

A slow every 2 rounds as a FREE ACTION!
transmute mud to rock FULL HEALS IT!
Immunity to CRITICAL HITS
Immunity to SPELLS
Constructable at CL14!!!

costs 105000gp to craft, and 7,640XP. Pricey but... you gotta admit, not even a 20 fighter can outperform him. In a straight up man fight he'll solo balors too! Note I said man fight as in balor won't run away or fly or etc.

I gotta try this guy! Otherwise I'd go a sorcerer, because necromancy + planar binding don't take up a lot of spells.

Iron golem on the other hand... bleh total waste.

unless you're using tippy-like tricks to make them worthwhile and make them for free, they are crap:

let's be generous and assume it's somehow possible for you to use almost all of your lvl 14 WBL (150,000gp) somehow to make your golem (meaning liquidating nearly ALL your assets including headband of intellect, ring of wizardry, etc. if you don't want to sell all your stuff, you'll need to make him even later in the game)

>hp

who cares about HP? at CR 14, monsters can deal way more damage than that, even with his DR. and that's not even starting enemies that use spells or SLAs, like the cr 13 iconic monster, the beholder (who can disintegrate as a sla. fort save, but it also works on objects)

>atk bonus

by the book monsters' AC does generally suck, i'll give you that, but what about miss chances? unless you are all about AC, like an abjurant champion, it makes much more sense to just wear a cloak of minor displacement like a normal person. to say nothing of spells like blur, mirror image, etc, or monsters like displacer beasts. plus his lack of mobility means that getting over there to punch some guy in the face will be a lot harder than you seem to think it is.

>dmg

his damage is OK for level 14, but he's gonna have a lot of trouble doing stuff like overcoming enemy DR, which makes him a lot less effective. plus he has no ranged options, is slow as hell, and can't fly. addressing any of these problems is going to require your medabot soaking up party buffs your token BSF is going to be sorely missing, or outfitting him with expensive items to keep him up with the monsters you're going to be fighting (on top of all that money you paid to make him in the first place

>AC

like all golems, his AC is horrible. since he can't qualify for normal tricks like abjchamp or tortoise shell, you'll probably want a miss chance via minor cloak of displacement, or buffing him with blur, but again, he's sponging up valuable resources (either money or magic) which is exactly what having a golem is (in theory) supposed to prevent. he's supposed to save you time, money, and actions in combat, not cost them since he's so vulnerable and needs so much protection.

>dr

it's really easy to ignore dr: spells, energy damage from monsters like delver or dragons (which you'll start running into in adult form at CR 14) all slices right through it.

>slow

check the dc. it's only 17. a monster at cr 14 is not going to fail the save that often. casting it 1 every 2 rounds means he'l be lucky to get it off twice in a combat since the duration of combat shrinks the higher up you go. in my experience (even in a not very optimized group) lvl 14 combats very seldom last more than 3 rounds.

even setting that aside, check the range: it's only 10 feet which means he'll hardly ever be able to debuff more than one guy at a time, and since it's so short, he'll have a dickens of a time getting his big fat butt over there with his awesome 20ft move speed.

>mud to rock

sure, it gives him HP back, but you know in-combat healing is a terrible idea. it's spending actions you could be using killing the enemy and preventing more damage playinc ketchup with their actions last round. what's the enemy going to do next round? bonk your stone golem again maybe, so you'll just do this all over again.

plus this requires you wasting a bunch of 3rds on "transmute mud to rock" which is gross, and could've been spent for better spells, or expensive scrolls/wands/runestaves/etc, again eating up more WBL to make him even not perish in combat, much less actually useful

>immune to crits

okay. and?

>immune to spells

no. he is only immune to spells that allow SR. hail of stone, orb of x, melf's unicorn arrow, etc will all have their normal effect on him.

>constructable at 14

he will take almost all your WBL and half the xp you used to get to 14 to create, and the remainder of your money (and more) to keep alive with either gear, spells, or consumables (likely all three)

even in a very low-op game, he is in no way worth the trouble to create.

if you really want golems, just buy a rod of construct control and boss them around after you kill their masters. they still won't be any good, but you at least won't have to pay an arm and a leg for them and won't be quite as devastated when they're inevitably killed.

balor will absolutely eat this guy for lunch. he is vastly ov-CRed at 16 since the devs think "wall of HP"= hard to kill

[RoboEmperor]

You can make him fly with a spell! Fly you giant mass of rock! This will eliminate all of your mobility problems you stated.

About your disintegrate comment, it seems golems are immune to that unless specifically stated. Nothing on the disintegrate spell says it affects golems, and only the clay golem has a disintegrate spell description, so I'm willing to believe disintegrate does not work on golem

About your spells that ignore his immunity.... pfffft they hardly do any damage :P

About your wealth concerns, I don't think it takes any gold to maintain him, after all, 1 spell and he's healed, and there's really no way you can improve him via gear.

How would a balor eat this guy for lunch? I understand balors are tougher opponents, but I don't think a balor can beat one.

I'm not saying this guy is unkillable, of course a human player can utterly annihilate him in an encounter without trying that hard, but we're talking about v.s. monsters :P

You don't think he's better than a BSF? :\
This guy can hold his own against an elemental monolith!

Anyways I really appreciate this discussion. I do like my PC characters to be able to comeback after 100% of their gear has been taken (they get defeated in combat and have to escape a prison leaving all their stuff behind), and a dead golem = I am so severely behind and can't afford to make a 2nd one.

But fluff wise I like golems more than undead, because they aren't rotting flesh or bones which are weak in real life. They are made, by you, out of metal (stone is suboptimal but iron golems suck >.<). In a lot of other fantasy games I wished there were options to make golems instead of skeletons and in D&D, here is a way! But I see your point. Maybe I will forgo the golem...

But you gotta convince me how a big stupid fighter is better than this guy ;D

[Venger]

he's still eating up all your spell slots if you buff him with fly, or whatever else, which is my point: drawing your attention to how many resources he eats up.

beholders' eye rays are su. they do not allow spell resistance.

huh? orb of x deal 1d6/lvl and are excellent targets for metamagic, they can deal tons of damage, as can any spells like it

I laid out how he needs all kinds of stuff to protect him in combat. miss chance to obviate AC, scrolls or spell slots to replenish HP, flight spells or items to move around, etc. that stuff all costs a lot on top of his high initial cost

balors can summon a ton of other demons, have a variety of terrifying SLAs and powers, are melee monsters, deal a lot of fire damage (which bypasses his dr) and have pretty great melee numbers. plus he can fly.

I'm not saying his weakness is "he's not completely indestructible" it's that even against CR appropriate monsters at 14 and on, he will come up short and will, at best, not contribute much to combat, and at worst, probably be killed.

try running him against a handful of not completely terrible CR 13 monsters (or cr 13 encounter) just as an experiment (such as beholder, since you don't seem to think he's a threat) and see what happens. he will not do well.

no, he's actually a lot worse than a BSF because while we like to caricaturize and say fighters can only hit stuff, even they usually have some options (shock trooper, power attack, etc)

stone golem, being mindless, literally has none. he can very slowly waddle over to where you are and if you're still there and haven't disintegrated him, hit you with his fists or a huge sword if you feel like spending more money on him and eating the nonproficiency penalty

elemental monoliths are a perfect example of how poorly he stacks up to monsters in his general weight category.

greater stone golem is (in theory) a cr 16. elemental monoliths are each cr 17s, so on paper, they should be able to have a more or less even fight.

NO.

air monolith can fly, so he doesn't even have to engage if he doesn't want to, and can just chip away at him with whirlwind.

earth monolith's earth glide means much the same thing, but iron golem won't even be able to see him coming, plus he deals more damage than whirlwind

fire monolith has additional fire damage on his slams which ignores DR, and would winnow away HP very quickly, especially with all the damage his slams deal

water monolith would function in a similar way to air with its vortex ability. its dr is better and it has a lot more health (same is true of the others) so if they're just trading blows, it's gonna come out ahead

and every single one of them is gargantuan, so they'd be able to exploit reach and essentially put their palm on iron golem's forehead while he impotently windmilled his arms at them like in three stooges

if you like golems so much, look at complete arcane's "effigy master" prestige class. you pick out monsters you like and apply the "effigy" template to them, which essentially makes them constructs and gives them some other bonuses. it's a lot more affordable than golems and they suck a lot less, plus you can actually have a gaggle of them, which seems important to you.

I'm confused at how you seem to understand iron golem is terrible, but think stone golem is different somehow. they're exactly the same, greater stone just has bigger numbers. despite what the designers think, bigger numbers ≠ moar power.

by BSF, I'm assuming you just mean a brute type in general and not literally a single-classed level 16 fighter. just google "ubercharger" they're a lot more effective in combat than this guy. they have options in combat (even if it's not that many) through their feats and stuff, plus they don't cost you 100+k, and have their own items and stuff so they're not (solely) a magic sponge on their teammates. they may be stupid, but they're still allowed to have skills/feats.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright, you're right, I'll ditch the golem. Now I have 1 more feat opened up XD. A creative encounter or a well designed one will be the end of him for sure, like you said. No point in showing frustration at the DM that he killed my investment. I'm a consider a sorcerer again. Another day of pondering... XD

FYI I view golems and elementals as the same. So I can get through this! Maybe planar bind elemental, dominate him, send him back, open a gate and he walks through :)

[Venger]

Alright, you're right, I'll ditch the golem. Now I have 1 more feat opened up XD. A creative encounter or a well designed one will be the end of him for sure, like you said. No point in showing frustration at the DM that he killed my investment. I'm a consider a sorcerer again. Another day of pondering... XD

check out effigy master. I think you'll enjoy it. it'll give you the things a robot buddy should be able to do.

have fun

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah effigy master seems interesting...
3840xp for a tarrasque effigy! XD Of course I need to be level 48...

But still, I'd like a continuation of the discussion of the main topic, as to what feats are nice for a necromancer/planar binder/dominater wizard.

[Venger]

Yeah effigy master seems interesting...
3840xp for a tarrasque effigy! XD Of course I need to be level 48...

But still, I'd like a continuation of the discussion of the main topic, as to what feats are nice for a necromancer/planar binder/dominater wizard.

Ha! you only need a caster level of 48.

I'll save that for when you get a little more of your build ironed out, since as it stands you're torn between wiz and sor and contemplating effigy master.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm a stick with wizards. At level 16, sorcerer has to choose between greater planar binding or create greater undead, while a wizard can get both and a moment of prescience, have a ton of feats, focus on summoning, and if he really has to, go batman it and retreat, redo his entire spell selection, and re-engage.

As for effigy master, I'll take it! Everything I read says its crap because low hp, low saves, low everything except damage output, which wouldn't be so bad if it didn't eat up XP (although it only takes tiny XP). So am I willing to spend XP like limited wish for some more machines? The answer is yes! XD. Probably only gonna craft effigies after level 16 or 17, or maybe only in epic levels... I dunno. I'll have to read through monsters to see if I can get an awesome effigy.

So yeah, if my DM allows Libris Mortis I got my feats selected, but if he doesn't then I'll have to probably get spell focus necromancy or transmutation. Definately getting augment summoning.

Plan of action is: If enemy is not undead, kill it with spectre mobs or wail of the banshee. If enemy is undead kill it with massive physical damage from my army + summons like elemental monolith. If all fails batman it!

In the event I lose all my gear, tattoo spellbook should suffice for spells, planar binding + contingency + teleport should get me a decent fighting force to raise some money, get some corpses, and rebuild my undead army and then craft another mithral buckler of undead controlling and build my spectre army.

If tattoo spellbook is erased... somehow make money and re-research all the spells XD. Hmm, a spell mastery or two wouldn't be such a bad idea.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just gonna throw this out there but you -do- have the organizational skill to manage a whole mess of minions and a DM and/or group that won't be severely annoyed by all the extra time your minions take in adjudicating combat?

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, it's not that hard. At least in early levels
1. Animate Dead super high HD monsters, so even at your limit at most you're looking at 2-3 creatures
2. Don't planar bind more than 1 guy. Planar bind more guys if you fail your current task, not before.

So by that it's usually my guy + 3 more creatures, no different than a guy who spams summon monsters, but once I get to level 16 then yeah the wraith army would get out of hand, but I just put them all in a bag of holding and let out a couple at a time, so it's like an at-will summon wraith. I'm lazy too and I don't want to have 4 x my caster level of skeleton archers. Even at level 7 that's 28 skeletons, unless my DM allows me to control them like a swarm, so all 28 move as one, attacks as one, etc, so essentially the mob is just 1 creature with 28d12 hit die and 28 attacks per round.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, it's not that hard. At least in early levels
1. Animate Dead super high HD monsters, so even at your limit at most you're looking at 2-3 creatures
2. Don't planar bind more than 1 guy. Planar bind more guys if you fail your current task, not before.

So by that it's usually my guy + 3 more creatures, no different than a guy who spams summon monsters, but once I get to level 16 then yeah the wraith army would get out of hand, but I just put them all in a bag of holding and let out a couple at a time, so it's like an at-will summon wraith. I'm lazy too and I don't want to have 4 x my caster level of skeleton archers. Even at level 7 that's 28 skeletons, unless my DM allows me to control them like a swarm, so all 28 move as one, attacks as one, etc, so essentially the mob is just 1 creature with 28d12 hit die and 28 attacks per round.

If you can find a way to squeeze 2 more HD worth of control onto that you could controll an actuall swarm of them; rather a mob of skeletons ala the mob template in DMG2.

[RoboEmperor]

If you can find a way to squeeze 2 more HD worth of control onto that you could controll an actuall swarm of them; rather a mob of skeletons ala the mob template in DMG2.

Sweet! Level 8 is 32 HD of skeletons. Swarm it is! Looking up DMG2...

edit: Looked it up. Requires 48 skeletons. Has +15 BAB but no attack though, only trample or grapple or a 5d6 attack:(

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sweet! Level 8 is 32 HD of skeletons. Swarm it is! Looking up DMG2...

edit: Looked it up. Requires 48 skeletons. Has +15 BAB but no attack though, only trample or grapple or a 5d6 attack:(

It does swarm damage to anyone in its space when their turn ends (or its turn ends, I don't recall which) and look at that grapple modifier. It'll pin down and shred most anything you're likely to encounter at level 8-ish. It's a big, unsubtle brute of a minion but it does the BSF thing -really- well, at least for that level.

[RoboEmperor]

It does swarm damage to anyone in its space when their turn ends (or its turn ends, I don't recall which) and look at that grapple modifier. It'll pin down and shred most anything you're likely to encounter at level 8-ish. It's a big, unsubtle brute of a minion but it does the BSF thing -really- well, at least for that level.

48 medium creatures required so I need to be level 12, unless I find 12 large creatures. But yeah if there are no other options a 48d8 BSF ain't bad, and since if it dies, I only lose 30% of the skeletons and such. Thanks for informing of this strategy :)

[Kelb_Panthera]

48 medium creatures required so I need to be level 12, unless I find 12 large creatures. But yeah if there are no other options a 48d8 BSF ain't bad, and since if it dies, I only lose 30% of the skeletons and such. Thanks for informing of this strategy :)

You can do it at 8. Just stuff the first ones you took control of into an extra dimensional storage device. As you go over your limit those will be dropped from your control but that doesn't matter since they're in storage. Once you have enough between your control and your storage you stuff them all into the storage space then dump out the mob and take control of that.

[RoboEmperor]

You can do it at 8. Just stuff the first ones you took control of into an extra dimensional storage device. As you go over your limit those will be dropped from your control but that doesn't matter since they're in storage. Once you have enough between your control and your storage you stuff them all into the storage space then dump out the mob and take control of that.

I think if you go over the limit of controllable undead they just die, not become "feral", at least with animate dead.

[Venger]

I think if you go over the limit of controllable undead they just die, not become "feral", at least with animate dead.

they don't "die" or cease to be animated, nor do they become feral. if your control pool is exceeded, they go uncommanded and follow the last order to the best of their ability until they're bossed around by someone else or killed.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, I misremembered the description.

Also I'm going to stick with the golem >:D
Cast it an ungodly number of buffs like haste, displacement, fly, etc. and completely ignore the party BSF (he's not my responsibility, he's the cleric's! D:<), have my undead surround and take all the hits for him, and other fun tactics. I'll treat him like a glass cannon that isn't so fragile. If only he could fit into a bag of holding >.<, I'm a think of other ways to keep him out of danger. He's basically going to be my "standard attack", and with my support, should outperform every gish in existance! Except maybe those persistent wraith strikers... But really, unless he is 1-shotted, he shouldn't die ever with my teleports :D

I get the feeling in your games venger, BSFs and gishes stand around doing nothing from mid to high levels and it's all about clerics and wizards and who gets their uber spells off first, since you mentioned each encounter lasts only 3 to 4 rounds ;D

I'm not playing to optimize, I'm playing thematically, and this theme is a non-combat magical engineer! Definitely getting effigy master now, I've decided.

[Venger]

I get the feeling in your games venger, BSFs and gishes stand around doing nothing from mid to high levels and it's all about clerics and wizards and who gets their uber spells off first, since you mentioned each encounter lasts only 3 to 4 rounds ;D

I'm not playing to optimize, I'm playing thematically, and this theme is a non-combat magical engineer! Definitely getting effigy master now, I've decided.

it's not just my games, it's any game. it's a side effect of the ways the system's designed with mundanes not being allowed to have nice things.

a competently built brute can be a big or even primary part of those 3 rounds. fighting a small number of CR appropriate monsters means that an ubercharger can often pull his weight and take out one or two of them in a combat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I get the feeling in your games venger, BSFs and gishes stand around doing nothing from mid to high levels and it's all about clerics and wizards and who gets their uber spells off first, since you mentioned each encounter lasts only 3 to 4 rounds ;D

I'm not playing to optimize, I'm playing thematically, and this theme is a non-combat magical engineer! Definitely getting effigy master now, I've decided.

And there's the stormwind fallacy.

Optimization and roleplaying are not opposed forces. You can, in some games even should, do both.

Mid and high level primary casters who party with non-casters are being dramatically less efficient than they could be by deliberately overshadowing their allies. For example; a wizard casting polymorph on himself to become a 12-headed hydra can do gobs of damage in melee but casting that same polymorph on the party's fighter will allow that fighter to evicerate enemies the wizard couldn't begin to fight. Combat buffs applied to BSF's are exceedingly more efficient than those same buffs on the caster himself. Battlefield control spells make fights easier for everyone and invisibility helps a rogue with stealthing way more than it does a wizard.

High-op games are a different animal from low-op games but they don't necessitate leaving the low tier classes on the way-side.

[RoboEmperor]

I got it! I'll keep the golem in the ethereal plane! That way he can pop in and out as I desire, or something iunno :P

Anyways thanks Venger and Kelb, I got my wizard build down and my personal "skill" in this game can only be increased by playing more games and experiencing the higher optimizations first hand.

Also, I'm reading tippy's shadesteel golem stuff in preparation for high-op. Won't be for a while though unless I can find the time to play 2 games at same time.

2) They are the best minions you can get. Perfect flight, immunity to magic, total loyalty, and relatively cheap to pump up to 20+ HD. Spend the 8,000 GP when you craft it and it gets an Int score equal to half your CL; an ECL 17 character can potentially have an effective CL of 40 to 60 or so which means a base Int score of somewhere between 20 and 30. This gets the Golem skill points and feats, and with over 20 HD it can qualify for Epic Feats. Exceptional + Infinite Deflection is quite tasty. Throw on a permanent telepathic bond and a Heightened to 9th Shadow Evocation Invisible Continual Flame and it gets to always act as Hasted and heal 9 points per round. Throw on Hide Life and it becomes immune to death/destruction from HP damage.

Could someone source his claims? I need documentation XD.
The hitdie increase is in the advanced golem stuff, but I can't find
1. The increased INT for half your CL
2. How an ECL17 character can have a CL of 40-60

I understand the shadow evocation continual flame, though not why it has to be invisible.

edit: Found it, DRAGON MAGAZINE! My DM and I, and everyone in our group avoids that magazine like the plague. Heh... so much for the awesome shadesteel golem. But still, perma haste and hp regen is nothing to laugh at, but no feats I guess.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tippy's stuff is certainly interesting to read about and is almost always 100% RAW legal but, and if you read this Tippy I mean no offense, it's also very rarely suitable for any but the absolute highest of high op games. Seriously, go to one of the handbooks or ask the forum if you need tips on how to do something.

That said, shadesteel golems are monster manual 3, the intelligence thing comes from the rudimentary intelligence feat from a Dragon magazine, retarded high caster level is probably using circle magic (likely from the feat in ghostwalk), epic feats are epic handbook, permanent telepathic bond is rary's telepathic bond and permanency in concert from the player's handbook, shadow evocation is used to bypass the material component for continual flame and it's modified by the invisible spell feat from cityscape so that it isn't an obvious target for dispelling. Hide life is from tome and blood. Feats are 1 +1 per 3 HD regardless of how or why a creature is intelligent.

[Venger]

shadesteel golem is from MM3, not 4. everything else is correct.

[Kelb_Panthera]

shadesteel golem is from MM3, not 4. everything else is correct.

Corrected. Dangit, I even double checked before I posted that.

[RoboEmperor]

I just wanted to add the DC for the slow for a greater stone golem is 31, not 17. DC17 is normal stone golem. DC31 is greater stone golem. So he will be reliably getting a lot of slows off, and we all know just how amazingly powerful slow is :). DC31 is higher than a wizard's heightened slow!

10+9(heightened)+9(int)=28

So a slow that's castable up to 10 feet for free every 2 rounds and lasts 7 rounds is pretty good don't ya think? Don't know if it's AoE though, probably not because the spell slow requires a caster level per additional creature.