Apple WW

[AvatarVecna]

Ok, so that's a logical reason to not vote for someone. Now we just need a logical reason to vote for someone.

Also, anyone else find it hilarious that FC says he's going to ignore me and then immediately revenge votes me? And seriously if he and Aventine are also masons them voting for me together is about the dumbest possible thing they could have done. Then again, wolves are being kinda dumb right now too since Duck died basically defending FC and the wolves didn't immediately hit FC. So I guess if FC is a mason he's just trying to even things out for them? And he calls my behavior anti-town. lol.

But seriously, scew you FC. I provided a clear argument yesterday for why I think you're a good person to lynch. Participating doesn't mean "does what FC would like people to do". It means contributing to the discussion. Which I clearly did. And same for Aventine, I'm not being intentionally unhelpful by trying to remove FC as an obvious future problem for guaranteed some members of town. Even if he is a mason he still has a color and will almost certainly wind up screwing over someone. Of course if he is a mason we should probably not lynch him. But otherwise I see no reason for us believing any other claim from him right now and if he isn't a mason he's still a better person to lynch than just about anyone else unless someone comes forward with some good reason to go for anyone else. Aside from "Ramsus didn't agree with me automatically because I am me". Because that kind of behavior is ridiculous. Seriously you two. I hope so badly neither of you are masons because if you are you basically just got yourselves killed just so you could argue with me.

You make some good points on all but one front; Aventine's first vote (early on in the first day) was for Duck. I find it unlikely that Aventine is a mason, but I suppose it's still possible. Other than that, I think you've got a point...although perhaps that's my inexperience talking. Still, it's like you said earlier: we can't let the color war distract us from the morality war.

[Aventine]

To be clear: no, I am not a mason. Not really sure where that idea came from actually.

Also, come on guys. FC wasn't killed, so either the wolves didn't notice him and Duck defending each other or they had some reason not to kill FC yet (he is one of them? They want us to think he is one of them? Not sure what else it could be so early in the game). If it is the former we probably didn't want to point these things out to the wolves. I was worried what I said was too obvious, guess that doesn't matter now.

[Ramsus]

@AvatarVecna: Only part of my reasoning for killing FC being a good idea was the color war idea. He was never any less likely to be a wolf than anyone else, but as I said before (in a lot more words) he's more likely to be the cause of any random person's death in an extremely un-fun way than anyone else is and barring any better targets that would make him the best one.

@Aventine: Ok what's with you voting for me if you're not protecting FC and are going to then throw out the possibility he's actually a good lynch target on top of my reasons for him being one? Did you really just feel like pointing at me just because I bothered to question you? That's a lot more "actively and intentionally unhelpful to town" than anything I've done.
Not that I'm saying you shouldn't point out good reasons why someone is actually a valid lynch candidate, just wish you could have skipped the pointless obligatory "let's make an obviously dumb Ramsus wagon". (Not saying I'm any less likely to be a wolf at this point than anyone else, but I'm actively contributing and providing logic for my actions even though I really so far have had no obligation to and it would have been a lot easier for me to practically say nothing and just vote for FC because FC and not attract any extra attention to myself by having arguments/discussions.)

Edit: The more I think about it the less likely I see FC being a mason being. If Duck and FC were masons the best way to protect FC would actually have been for Duck to first protect himself and then try to shift votes to some other target. As right now even if FC claimed mason there's no reason to believe he's not a wolf trying to make his early death net the wolves a ton of free info via power role claims. And I'm sure a group of people who can discuss things would have come to at least a similar conclusion. Thus we're left with a better chance that FC is a wolf (as the wolves didn't kill him after a mason died because he chose to protect FC rather than himself on day 1) than he's anything else. Of course the wolves could be just trying to get us to lynch him instead of focusing on someone else but..... that's a kinda weird tactic for day 2. There's no particular guarantee of the wagon going his direction instead of in one of theirs and there's so little information in town's hands right now that it's not all that hard to avoid town lynching a wolf that isn't him. Also this would require the wolves thinking it was a good idea to not kill a mason in hopes of town lynching him day 2 with the rest of the masons aside from Duck still alive. Which admittedly with our numbers might only mean one other person....but still, not the most brilliant play I can think of.

[AvatarVecna]

@AvatarVecna: Only part of my reasoning for killing FC being a good idea was the color war idea. He was never any less likely to be a wolf than anyone else, but as I said before (in a lot more words) he's more likely to be the cause of any random person's death in an extremely un-fun way than anyone else is and barring any better targets that would make him the best one.

@Aventine: Ok what's with you voting for me if you're not protecting FC and are going to then throw out the possibility he's actually a good lynch target on top of my reasons for him being one? Did you really just feel like pointing at me just because I bothered to question you? That's a lot more "actively and intentionally unhelpful to town" than anything I've done.
Not that I'm saying you shouldn't point out good reasons why someone is actually a valid lynch candidate, just wish you could have skipped the pointless obligatory "let's make an obviously dumb Ramsus wagon". (Not saying I'm any less likely to be a wolf at this point than anyone else, but I'm actively contributing and providing logic for my actions even though I really so far have had no obligation to and it would have been a lot easier for me to practically say nothing and just vote for FC because FC and not attract any extra attention to myself by having arguments/discussions.)

Edit: The more I think about it the less likely I see FC being a mason being. If Duck and FC were masons the best way to protect FC would actually have been for Duck to first protect himself and then try to shift votes to some other target. As right now even if FC claimed mason there's no reason to believe he's not a wolf trying to make his early death net the wolves a ton of free info via power role claims. And I'm sure a group of people who can discuss things would have come to at least a similar conclusion. Thus we're left with a better chance that FC is a wolf (as the wolves didn't kill him after a mason died because he chose to protect FC rather than himself on day 1) than he's anything else. Of course the wolves could be just trying to get us to lynch him instead of focusing on someone else but..... that's a kinda weird tactic for day 2. There's no particular guarantee of the wagon going his direction instead of in one of theirs and there's so little information in town's hands right now that it's not all that hard to avoid town lynching a wolf that isn't him. Also this would require the wolves thinking it was a good idea to not kill a mason in hopes of town lynching him day 2 with the rest of the masons aside from Duck still alive. Which admittedly with our numbers might only mean one other person....but still, not the most brilliant play I can think of.

So, you're not voting for him because you think he's a direct threat, but more because he'll be less helpful to the cause than anyone else? I find that highly suspect, if for no other reason than I'm playing: even IRL, I haven't played much WW, and FC's been around since...what did he say, '07? If he's not a wolf, he'd be great to have on your team, assuming he didn't manipulate everyone into killing each other, which I'm not saying he does or doesn't. As for the unlikelihood of a mason getting lynched the second day when there's another mason around...well, a mason got lynched the first day, even though there were two other masons around (I think? It said so in the OP one of each color, right?).

Also, about Aventine's vote, I don't think he's so much "protecting FC" as he is "attacking you"; while some, maybe even all of your points are logical and well thought out, they don't come across very diplomatically. From an outsider's perspective, I can see how someone might view you as being unnaturally hostile towards firedaemon, Aventine, and FC. I think FC is voting for you because he suspects you, and Aventine's voting for you because you look like an angry &*#! spouting accusations against those who disagree with you. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, just that that's what it kinda looks like. I'm sure if I dove deeper into the subtext of the argument, I'd find a calmer, more logical tone, but I'm just not seeing it. I don't know, maybe I just suck. Which reminds me...

A while back, I got some advice from a friend while playing WW IRL: barring extraordinary circumstances, you don't mention the seer. Not even then. And I'm starting to think I should've applied that same rule to masons: maybe FC is a wolf, maybe FC is a mason, maybe FC is the orange...I don't know. But I'm starting to think that puzzling out who the masons are here in the forum is just gonna do the wolve's dirty work for them. I'm gonna go back and edit out the mason stuff from my comments; hopefully it's early enough in the morning that most of the other players won't be awake or online for hours, and they'll never see the mason arguments. Unless you think it's fine to leave the mason stuff in, I suggest you edit your own posts as well. We've already lynched one mason; I'd rather we not lose another because the wolves caught onto the other mason's identities.

[Fleeing Coward]

I'm not going to confirm or deny been a mason here. The only people who know whether or not I'm a mason is me and other masons.
Let the wolves figure out whether me and Duck would try to protect each other if we were both masons, don't do their work for them.

Want to know what's actually the most interesting thing about yesterday? Sprig not just tried to wagon me late, he also switched off Rain Dragon in doing so leaving Duck with the sole lead in lynch votes. Just thought I'd point that out.

[Sprig]

Yup, I was pretty open about it. I had a couple of reasons; One of the purely to see if anyone was watching end of day and would be tempted to follow me on FC. Also a Draw would have resulted in Duck lynch anyway.

Anyways Legato Endless vote for Duck looks like a crosspost but enough time past for it to be deliberate. imo this to be worth pursuing.

[Fleeing Coward]

Seems like a reasonable explanation. So you felt you could gain more information by seeing who'd jump in on me at the last minute than to see if anyone would break the tie during that time?

AvatarVecna, you seem to be pretty active but why did you wait until the day was over before going with a tossaway vote that does nothing yesterday?

[AvatarVecna]

Seems like a reasonable explanation. So you felt you could gain more information by seeing who'd jump in on me at the last minute than to see if anyone would break the tie during that time?

AvatarVecna, you seem to be pretty active but why did you wait until the day was over before going with a tossaway vote that does nothing yesterday?

Friday was the last day of the semester; prior to that, I was having limited time to do stuff; now I have time to do stuff, so I can bug everybody day in, day out! Also, I didn't realize how last-minute it was, I was just stating something odd I'd noticed.

[Ramsus]

@AvatarVecna: First off, I want a very good explanation as to why you accused me of being hostile to firedaemon when I was completely the opposite. Barring one you're now my #2 suspect for trying to paint me as against someone I was supporting in a way where maybe you thought you'd trick anyone.

I don't see how someone being around a long time has anything to do with their value as a player. I mean yes it means they probably got all their newby mistakes out of the way by now, but that's it. I've seen veteran players screw up repeatedly or just be totally useless for their team and I've seen guys playing their first game who totally kicked ass. Defending FC based solely on his time here and not what he's done with that time is really really poor logic. So another point against you there. (Although I can at least understand that as a "just wasn't thinking it through" kind of mistake.)

Next I would like to know where you get FC really thinking I'm a wolf from. Even if he says so it's just a cheap justification for a revenge vote on me unless he can provide a good reason I might be a wolf other than voting for him and having provided good reasons for why I'm doing so.

While generally you should indeed try and avoid specifically discussing any power role, in many games there comes a time where there's no real harm in doing so because you're just saying something the wolves have to have already puzzled out or it just has to be discussed for some other reason. In this case, discussing the masons falls into this.

Also there's nothing unnatural about my hostility towards Aventine and Fleeing Coward. In both cases they have treated me with unreasonable levels of hostility in the past. You also shouldn't confuse my presenting an argument against something someone said as hostility. It's just a necessary part of the game unless you expect people to just sit on their thumbs all game.

As for my reasoning to vote for FC, that's was original a correct summation, but barring any reasonable leads on a direct threat it doesn't make much sense to ignore an indirect threat in favor of random guesswork. However it's no longer correct as in my last post I responded and expounded on Aventine providing a reason for why FC is a direct threat. So yes, feel welcome to go ahead and say you find my reasoning suspicious, while being super suspicious yourself by ignoring a sizable part of the post of mine that you responded to in order to make an argument for why I'm suspicious when we ignore the facts.

Edit: So to sum up, AvatarVecna made about four really suspicious claims in the post I'm responding to. In my book that's a good enough reason to have him at least on our backburner suspect list all game no matter how he excuses himself.

[Tris]

Why do we have to bring things into this game from other games? Ugh.

[Sprig]

I agree with looking at AvatarVecna further. Though my read on him is more 'excited puppy'...

What I find suspicious more is there is no vote with Ramsus's accusation. It gives me the feeling that he's just setting up an easy lynch for later.

For the avoidance of setting up double standards, I am not changing my vote to him because I don't want this FC/Ramsus thing to spiral anymore out of control than it already is. As this will just deflect from rotten apple hunting.

[Ramsus]

@Tanar: Yes I know your question was rhetorical, but I'm going to answer it anyway.

So the reason we have to bring things in from other games has the following reasons (at least, I'm sure I'll miss some). The main reason is to analyze behavior to detect any tells or otherwise influence decisions in a meaningful way that gives some kind of advantage to your team. Hopefully this will generally done without falsehoods, however each person interprets and remembers things differently as well as picks up on things about other players that not everyone else will. It is theoretically possible to forgo this, but it would be difficult to actually achieve (an unspoken unrecognized bias is still a bias all the same) and it would largely be putting limits on oneself to the advantage of other people who would not limit themselves equally.

Another would be because, in my experience, this forum is completely ineffectual at resolving grievances and has the general apathy that most of the internet has as concerns problems that do not in the most blunt and obviously shoving it in your face way directly effect someone and thus problems between people are never really solved. They are either forgotten, grudges are silently settled by someone privately determining they've "gotten even" enough, or continue to simply fester until something dramatic happens. This wouldn't be so terrible of course if the result of dramatic happenings lead to a solution but so far what I've seen is it just results in mods showing up who refuse to actually properly examine an issue, throw warnings around, and claim the issue is resolved without actually resolving anything and the problem then continues to persist with the addition of at least one party feeling wronged by a new additional party for no good reason. Time and time again I've asked people to care at all about the treatment of people other than themselves and each time I'm met with a resounding cry of "meh". So I'm not sure if you or anyone else can fairly complain when grudges and drama show up where you don't want it to when you take no measures to prevent it. And please, don't pretend that telling people not to care about how other people treat them is participating in some kind of solution, that's would just be insulting the intelligence of everyone involved.

So to summarize, the 1st major reason is because it's a strategically valid thing to do. The 2nd is that this forum fails to have a proper way of handling conflict resolution.

Edit: @Sprig: I didn't vote for AvatarVecna for the following reasons.

1) I still think FC is our best bet for a wolf right now (and that's not just my grudge against him, I would feel that way regardless. "Ramsus why should I believe you when you say that, you just admitted you have a grudge against that guy?" To which I respond that my record should show that I'm generally as honest as I can be, especially about meta-issues. Also I'm kinda abnormal (as far as I can tell) and I often can separate issues from each other even when one involves some kind of aggression or antipathy, as long as the other thing doesn't as well.) Also note how I said right in that post he's my #2 suspect, why would you ignore that?

2) It would look SUPER defensive and fishy as all hell. Which doesn't mean I wouldn't still do it if he was my #1 suspect, but in my experience nobody cares if they are and I have a valid reason for it if it can be painted that way and usually involves me becoming a prime suspect, even if there's no other reason why anyone would consider me a wolf. So basically, because I am me I can't safely do that even if I wanted to. Even if it'd be a bad play for me not to, it's still in my book a better play to keep the one confirmed to me townsperson alive. (That'd be me in case someone needed clarification there.)

[Fleeing Coward]

My initial vote was indeed a revenge vote but I'm keeping it on Ramsus for a completely different reason.

Ramsus is just trying to disguise the fact that he's still on a personal vendetta under walls of text purporting to be valid reasons.

The majority of his reasons can be boiled down to : "FC has screwed me over before and I didn't find it fun plus his skillset is more likely to hurt your side"

That's just his personal opinion and repeatedly stating it in walls of text does not make it fact or make it a valid reason why I'm a better target than others for the lynch.

As for why the wolves didn't kill me last night, why would they? Everyone here knows I'm always a prime lynch target the longer I'm alive. I was also the most likely to be protected last night based on the way the votes turned out and even the the most paranoid power role would contact me if they failed a kill on me.

[Ramsus]

OK, seriously. I want to know why people give me crap about hostility when I'm expected to put up with that? *points at post above where FC just flat out resorts to attacks on my character on top of basically calling me a liar* Isn't that kind of behavior the least bit distasteful to you guys?

[Fleeing Coward]

I'm saying your judgement is clouded by your grudge.

Go back through your posts and if I'm wrong, feel free to point out where in your reasons not related to this game have you said anything about me been a threat that doesn't come down to "FC has screwed me over before and I didn't find it fun plus his skillset is more likely to hurt your side".

[Ramsus]

The parts where there were other reasons like how fishy it is that you're even still alive and where I did the analysis on why that could be and why I really don't think you're a mason so at the very worst you're just regular town but are still the most likely wolf lead we have. Y'know the parts that you ignored in order to justify your attacking my character. Again. Seriously, can you cut it out with that garbage? I'm not even the first person this game to have to complain about it. And it's only day 2.

[Fleeing Coward]

{scrubbed}

I also addressed exactly why the wolves wouldn't have killed me last night so please point out how your theory of me not been a mason means that I'm more likely to be a wolf than anyone else?

[Vwulf DeMarcus]

Fleeing Coward, because Ramsus' arguments make more sense to me than FC's do. Subject to change as I get more information.

[Ramsus]

@first sentence: Ok, I no longer understand what you're even saying. You edited your post to be quite different than it was and I don't see anything in the new version and I can't remember anything in the old version that makes what you just said intelligible to me at all. Note, I'm not trying to be hostile there, I'm just really confused now. Or maybe you're confused. I dunno. That's how confusing that is to me.
Edit: I'd actually like someone to look that over with an eye for if that was actually intended to just confuse people. Because I'm pretty sure I've seen someone do that kind of thing before.

@second sentence: I did see that. I guess I figured it went without saying that I consider that exactly the kind of defense you normally come up with that saves you from a lynch when you really should have been lynched. Just because it's possible and sounds reasonable enough, even though it's likely less probable than the other options. It also doesn't really offer anything in the way of explaining why even factoring that chance in generously it would make more sense to lynch anyone else in particular. But I do suppose I should have actually directly responded to it. Hopefully it's understandable that I had other things on my mind at the time than something that registered to me as "oh look, a typical FC defense". (Note: I'm not disparaging that kind of defense, it's a good tactic. I'm just familiar enough with it that it no longer has the intended potency on me.)

[Fleeing Coward]

@first sentence: Ok, I no longer understand what you're even saying. You edited your post to be quite different than it was and I don't see anything in the new version and I can't remember anything in the old version that makes what you just said intelligible to me at all.

This is all the proof you need that Ramsus is a wolf. The only edit I made was a grammatical edit within a minute of my post. Anyone who has subscribed to the thread can vouch for me on that.

[Rain Dragon]

I would like to add a pressure vote to Legato Endless.

[Ramsus]

This is all the proof you need that Ramsus is a wolf. The only edit I made was a grammatical edit within a minute of my post. Anyone who has subscribed to the thread can vouch for me on that.

Or, y'know that's crazy talk and I just misremembered what was there in that last tiny post of yours because what you're saying in one post is so similar to the other that you're essentially just repeating yourself. Seriously, this is grasping at straws territory now. Can you honestly say you believe I was trying to misrepresent you as opposed to made a mistake? More importantly do you think anyone else would believe that? Because seriously, does that at all match up with how I act ever? Not only do I try and not misrepresent what people are doing (though I might interpret it differently) I don't tend to do it in a bone headed everyone is obviously going to notice way. In fact, almost nobody does. The fact that you even tried to claim that as proof I'm a wolf is pretty much all the reason anyone should need to lose all faith in the potential honesty of anything else you're claiming.

Still, I'll apologize for misremembering what exactly was in that post and what changed. Although maybe it'd help if you made your posts stand out from each other by doing more than just repeating yourself and resorting to tacky tricks to try and get people to lynch me over nothing. As far as I can tell it's doing you a lot more harm than it's doing me (for once), so out of the two of us maybe it's you who should realize his reasoning is being clouded by our grudge. At least I'm managing to still treat you and others with a measure of respect.

Edit: Rain Dragon, why Legato Endless in particular. Just because there's this FC thing going on doesn't mean that's an excuse to not explain votes on day 2. (Though I'm sure you could regrettably get away with "hunch" or "avoiding drama" or some lame excuse. Still, give some kind of explanation at least.)

[Fleeing Coward]

Or, y'know that's crazy talk and I just misremembered what was there in that last tiny post of yours because what you're saying in one post is so similar to the other that you're essentially just repeating yourself. Seriously, this is grasping at straws territory now. Can you honestly say you believe I was trying to misrepresent you as opposed to made a mistake? More importantly do you think anyone else would believe that? Because seriously, does that at all match up with how I act ever? Not only do I try and not misrepresent what people are doing (though I might interpret it differently) I don't tend to do it in a bone headed everyone is obviously going to notice way. In fact, almost nobody does. The fact that you even tried to claim that as proof I'm a wolf is pretty much all the reason anyone should need to lose all faith in the potential honesty of anything else you're claiming.

Still, I'll apologize for misremembering what exactly was in that post and what changed. Although maybe it'd help if you made your posts stand out from each other by doing more than just repeating yourself and resorting to tacky tricks to try and get people to lynch me over nothing. As far as I can tell it's doing you a lot more harm than it's doing me (for once), so out of the two of us maybe it's you who should realize his reasoning is being clouded by our grudge. At least I'm managing to still treat you and others with a measure of respect.

Edit: Rain Dragon, why Legato Endless in particular. Just because there's this FC thing going on doesn't mean that's an excuse to not explain votes on day 2. (Though I'm sure you could regrettably get away with "hunch" or "avoiding drama" or some lame excuse. Still, give some kind of explanation at least.)

Or you screwed up as a wolf. I'd rather bet on that explanation any day of the week.

[AvatarVecna]

@Ramsus

After looking back through your comments more thoroughly, I feel I need to offer you an apology. After a long night of reading through several wall-o'-text posts, I lost track of which rants belonged to which person, which resulted in me falsely accusing you of attacking firedaemon in your posts. I intended no hostility in my post, but I can see how it might appear that way. It was unfair of me, and I'm sorry for mistaking you for them.

My argument protecting FC was was that experienced players are less likely to make mistakes than newbs like me, so they're more valuable to their team. As for thinking FC thinking you're a wolf, I'm just going by the mantra of "vote for who you think is a wolf, not who you think is a #$@!"; while I'm not saying I agree, I can see how FC would view your comments as being hostile and could conclude that you're a wolf. Maybe I'm just not digging deep enough, and the reasons are more complex than that, or maybe it's just a really simple revenge vote, like he claims.

Me? Suspicious? Well...yeah, that's not surprising. I'm probably making a dozen mistakes in every post, but I'm still learning the ropes; people don't quite have this much time to deliberate in RL Werewolf, so the levels of deception and suspicion don't go nearly as deep as they do here, and I'm still getting used to it. If you think I'm just a lousy player, hang someone you suspect of being a wolf. And by all means, if you think I'm a wolf, hang me by my neck, whether it's today or tomorrow (well, tomorrow in-game; I think tomorrow IRL is still today in-game) or the day after that, even.

[Rain Dragon]

Oops. I thought I had a second sentence written.
The reasoning Sprig pointed out is something that occurred to me on Day 1 as well.

I also admit to not being very good at reading through the FC & Ramsus thing and am unable to figure too much out from that.

[Fleeing Coward]

Also Ramsus, since you chose to misrepresent me the first time and then pretend to be confused while resorting to cheap accusations, I'll ask again:

Show me which of your arguments against me that's not related to this game doesn't boil down to "FC has screwed me over before and I didn't find it fun plus his skillset is more likely to hurt your side".

I repeat myself because you're providing nothing of real substance and your only game related reasoning for trying to get me lynched is the wolves didn't kill me last night. I've invited you to prove me wrong on that front several times and you have yet to do so.

[Ramsus]

@FC: Yes, because I totally do really stupid screw ups as a wolf all the time. That's clearly what I'm known for. *rolls eyes* (Not that I screw up any more or less as one side or the other as far as I know.)

Edit: Argh ninja. Ok replying. What, this stuff again where people claim I haven't given a reply to something I clearly have? As I said in my last reply to this same question: That stuff where I examined the likelyhood of why you're still alive has nothing to do with the reasons you're excluded as valid reasons to think you're a good person to lynch. (Not that your excluding them means they aren't valid reasons to lynch you.) I also don't have to/can't prove your defense wrong at any point until after the game is over and I interrogate the wolves for why they didn't kill you. Unless you're a wolf in which case I wouldn't have to. Not sure why you're pretending that someone is not at all a valid lynch unless you know for sure they're a wolf when there's nobody else around who is more likely a wolf than that person.
Edit 2: Though now I do have the additional reasons of you being more likely a wolf because you persist in trying to use cheap stuff to paint me as a wolf that nobody should ever fall for unless you really think they're way less intelligent than I assume everyone here is. Even if someone else thinks that doesn't make you more likely a wolf, it certainly makes you a hell of a lot less valuable to town than anyone else who won't try to mislead town in the most tacky and insulting ways possible.

@AvatarVecna: Huh? Never said you were being hostile. Just that you were being wolfish. As far as depths of intrigue goes.... you'd be surprised how not deep it usually goes given the capabilities we all have to do so if we wanted. Sometime's we're lucky when people put out single-think let alone double or triple-think.

[Fleeing Coward]

@FC: Yes, because I totally do really stupid screw ups as a wolf all the time. That's clearly what I'm known for. *rolls eyes* (Not that I screw up any more or less as one side or the other as far as I know.)

Edit: Argh ninja. Ok replying. What, this stuff again where people claim I haven't given a reply to something I clearly have? As I said in my last reply to this same question: That stuff where I examined the likelyhood of why you're still alive has nothing to do with the reasons you're excluded as valid reasons to think you're a good person to lynch. (Not that your excluding them means they aren't valid reasons to lynch you.) I also don't have to/can't prove your defense wrong at any point until after the game is over and I interrogate the wolves for why they didn't kill you. Unless you're a wolf in which case I wouldn't have to. Not sure why you're pretending that someone is not at all a valid lynch unless you know for sure they're a wolf when there's nobody else around who is more likely a wolf than that person.
Edit 2: Though now I do have the additional reasons of you being more likely a wolf because you persist in trying to use cheap stuff to paint me as a wolf that nobody should ever fall for unless you really think they're way less intelligent than I assume everyone here is. Even if someone else thinks that doesn't make you more likely a wolf, it certainly makes you a hell of a lot less valuable to town than anyone else who won't try to mislead town in the most tacky and insulting ways possible.

You don't need to screw up badly all the time, it only takes one mistake to expose yourself.

You're still avoiding the question - point out what those "reasons" are to me because I don't see any reason outside of "FC has screwed me over before and I didn't find it fun plus his skillset is more likely to hurt your side" and FC's still alive before this post where I challenged you to prove me wrong the first time:

I'm saying your judgement is clouded by your grudge.

Go back through your posts and if I'm wrong, feel free to point out where in your reasons not related to this game have you said anything about me been a threat that doesn't come down to "FC has screwed me over before and I didn't find it fun plus his skillset is more likely to hurt your side".

Edit: Bolded what I was asking in that first post - you chose to respond with supposed ingame reasons - that's what I meant by you not reading my post.
Even that reason you posted there - it shows an ingame reason of why you think I'm not a mason - not even sure how you turned that into "he's therefore more likely to be a wolf than anyone else now if he's not a mason".

[Ramsus]

I've already answered your question twice. Maybe someone else will indulge your claims I haven't and explain it to you.
Edit: Oh, that's what you were asking? Yeah, I just did not get that from the way I was reading it. Uh.... ok.... why are you even asking that? That's weird. But ok....
OK so things I've said that don't relate to this game in particular for why I think you're a threat that doesn't stem from you screwing me over and my thinking that's not fun. (I guess we just add in that I don't think that's fun for anyone at all, not just me, and also not include that in my response?)
Well let's see, your tendency to throw ridiculous stuff around as if it's viable whether you're town or not is really anti-town and I've seen you do that in games other than this. Also it's not like you screw over just me. Your latest vendetta against me offered a no-win solution for an entire team who did nothing to earn the situation you were forcing on them/me and your unreasonable behavior certainly was no less aggravating for them than me. I also know I'm not the only person you've tricked into acting against their own interests or forced them into a no-win situation just because you refused to offer any kind of reasonable compromise (though maybe with other people you haven't done it to them repeatedly). You're also just pretty rude, see the way you've been speaking to firedaemon and myself as an example, but it happens in other games too. (And no I'm not going to go look that up. If you want to go look through every post you've made and fail to find more than a couple posts where you were unduly rude to people I'll apologize for my mistake though, as I'm certainly not saying my perception of past events is any better than anyone else's.) Also, an this is a super minor grievance but I'm sure it's does take away some fun from everyone, when you're a neutral role you seem to always just immediately claim as such and claim you won't participate in exchange for both sides leaving you alone. Which is bad enough as it essentially would remove you from the game, but on top of it, it's a total lie and you do go and influence events anyway so not only are you tricking people into thinking there's effectively one less person in the game, you're taking advantage of their trust in you. That's not fun, it's just cheap and rude and poor sportsmanship. I could probably figure out some more if my memory was better and I was willing to get amazingly petty with this. *shrug* Not that I think we should ever get that petty. Then the community would fall apart in an endless cycle of pointless bickering.

Also I've never once seen anyone get exposed as a wolf for doing something like mistaking or claiming a mistake in what someone posted/edited. At least not when it wasn't a part of some other thing they were saying as a justification for something a lot more elaborate (and even then that's amazingly rare). Every time I've seen that kind of thing it's just someone making a mistake. I don't think there's anyone here who hasn't made that kind of mistake several times, that kind of mistake seems to happen at least once per game if not more by someone, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously behave as if it was a wolf tell except when exceedingly desperate (and that's also pretty rare too). So I don't get why you're proposing such or acting as if anyone would give that argument the time of day. It's either really weird or really insulting to everyone you think would fall for it.

Edit 2: If anyone finds the potential drama level in anything I've said in this post upsetting, please remember that FC repeatedly demanded I give a reply to a question that was basically a request for a hell of a lot more drama than I replied with.
If FC finds any of it upsetting, he should re-think that as he should have probably not asked that kind of question in the first place. Especially if he couldn't handle the answer, but probably just in general shouldn't have asked at all.

[Fleeing Coward]

I've already answered your question twice. Maybe someone else will indulge your claims I haven't and explain it to you.
Edit: Oh, that's what you were asking? Yeah, I just did not get that from the way I was reading it. Uh.... ok.... why are you even asking that? That's weird. But ok....
-edit incoming-

I asked that because I was trying to show that was the major bias and the reason you're going after me. Since your only other reason outside of that is you think I'm not a mason and because of this and the fact that wolves didn't kill me, I'm somehow more likely to be a wolf (I'm still trying to wrap my head around how that makes any sense).

Also I've never once seen anyone get exposed as a wolf for doing something like mistaking or claiming a mistake in what someone posted/edited. At least not when it wasn't a part of some other thing they were saying as a justification for something a lot more elaborate (and even then that's amazingly rare). Every time I've seen that kind of thing it's just someone making a mistake. I don't think there's anyone here who hasn't made that kind of mistake several times, that kind of mistake seems to happen at least once per game if not more by someone, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously behave as if it was a wolf tell except when exceedingly desperate (and that's also pretty rare too). So I don't get why you're proposing such or acting as if anyone would give that argument the time of day. It's either really weird or really insulting to everyone you think would fall for it.

While this forum is where I play most my WW but I have played on alot of other forums over the years. I have seen otherwise decent players make all sorts of stupid mistakes in the heat of the moment that you'd think they never do which is why I believe you screwed up - basically, I think you weren't been rational at the time of that post and you thought you could get away with it in order to get me lynched before you die yourself.