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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    I'm another who doesn't see much reason to switch to 5th Edition. Everything about it just seems anti-4th Edition. It's pretty annoying, just for that.

    4th Edition has some issues, and I don't like how easily a party can turn into a ridiculous circus of weird characters, but it's not much different from 3.5 in that regard, and much easier to control.

    So, I'm still playing and trying to show how it works as a role-playing game and not just tactical combat. Let me know if you need a player or a GM.

    And where are some other good 4e communities?

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beta Centauri View Post

    And where are some other good 4e communities?
    There are still people posting about 4e over on the WotC boards.


    There is a dedicated forum here.

    If you are interested in reading someone's playthrough of the "H-P-E" Adventure Path, I would recommend this site.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by cavalier973 View Post
    There are still people posting about 4e over on the WotC boards.
    Just came from there. Not planning to go back.

    Quote Originally Posted by cavalier973 View Post
    There is a dedicated forum here.

    If you are interested in reading someone's playthrough of the "H-P-E" Adventure Path, I would recommend this site.
    I'll check them out, thanks.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Dimers's Avatar

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beta Centauri View Post
    Just came from there. Not planning to go back.
    Lately I've been considering branching out to other forums, just to get a little more variety and activity in my 4e life. Can you tell me why you don't care for the wizards.com board? Forewarned is forearmed ...
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  5. - Top - End - #65
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Lately I've been considering branching out to other forums, just to get a little more variety and activity in my 4e life. Can you tell me why you don't care for the wizards.com board? Forewarned is forearmed ...
    Come to think of it, it wasn't particularly that subforum that I didn't like. I was mostly on "What's a DM to Do?" I guess I didn't like the dominant personalities and prevailing opinions. You might as well give it a try.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Lately I've been considering branching out to other forums, just to get a little more variety and activity in my 4e life. Can you tell me why you don't care for the wizards.com board? Forewarned is forearmed ...
    It's been a while since I was active there, but last time I checked it's an echo chamber. That is, a small group of people that has formed a strong consensus on how the game works, and that is quick to deride anyone who play it differently. In some areas, their consensus is based on mathematical fact (e.g. based on DPR calculations you can objectively claim that striker X is better than striker Y). In other areas (e.g. how DMs should interpret certain ambiguous rules) it's simply based on one opinion that has drowned out the others years ago.

    Either way, I find it a decent place to check for advice, but not a nice group for hanging out with. YMMV.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  7. - Top - End - #67
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Lately I've been considering branching out to other forums, just to get a little more variety and activity in my 4e life. Can you tell me why you don't care for the wizards.com board? Forewarned is forearmed ...
    My experience is a lot in line with Kurald's.

    The optimization board is excellent for getting strict-RAW answers and critiques of builds, but they play /very/ loosely with certain readings, often knowingly constructing builds that no DM in their right mind would ever let you play. It's an interesting thought exercise, but not much more.

    Their rankings of certain classes/powers also often assume a level of competence in your party mates builds/tactics that I have literally never had at any table I've played at.

    There's <20 people that post on there regularly. Some of them are fantastic people and will be friendly and helpful the entire time. Some of them are exceptionally rude and will do nothing but berate you, regardless of anything else.

    The other boards are pretty quiet these days, but are a mix of those same people (who carry over the same personalities) and strict "optimization is antithetical to roleplay" zealots, and it's hard sometimes for threads not to devolve into those two groups bickering at the detriment of the original topic at hand.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    I remember posting once or twice on the WoTC boards, when I was super into the Vampire class and wanted to find a few ways to make it better, and everyone just says 'be another class and call yourself a vampire' and stuff like that.

    It is frustrating to get your question answered in that way.
    Thanks Gigi Digi for the avatar.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by NotScaryBats View Post
    I remember posting once or twice on the WoTC boards, when I was super into the Vampire class and wanted to find a few ways to make it better, and everyone just says 'be another class and call yourself a vampire' and stuff like that.

    It is frustrating to get your question answered in that way.
    Why? It's the correct answer. Vampire should have been a theme. There's no one "class" tied to vampire fiction, and literally everything about the mechanics they hobbled together for the vampire class in 4e is terrible.

    Fixing it would take no less work than homebrewing an entire class, because fixing it would require rewriting the entire class.

    The "be something better and refluff it" can absolutely be overused in annoying places, but for the vampire it's just the way it is.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Why? It's the correct answer. Vampire should have been a theme. There's no one "class" tied to vampire fiction, and literally everything about the mechanics they hobbled together for the vampire class in 4e is terrible.

    Fixing it would take no less work than homebrewing an entire class, because fixing it would require rewriting the entire class.

    The "be something better and refluff it" can absolutely be overused in annoying places, but for the vampire it's just the way it is.
    Perhaps they're attached to a particular power, or maybe their DM is a stickler for vampires taking the Vampire class, terrible as it is. It's analogous to, over on the 3.p boards, being told "be an Unarmed Swordsage" when asking about ways to optimise Monks. The difference being once that gets out of the way they tend to get actual advice on the subject. Sometimes people are just looking for ways to use in-class or feats/themes/items etc. to make a bad class slightly less awful.

    Mind you, I lack the optimisation chops to do that with Vampire. I can't really offer anything constructive in that regard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Can't you multiclass with vampire? The mechanics of that class are terrible, so people are usually only interested in it for flavor. Multi it with enchanter and you have a "night witch" or "Dracula"-style vampire. Multi it with a fast melee striker (rogue, some types of ranger) and maybe you have a Lestat-like vampire.

    If you're looking for tips on optimizing a single-classed vampire, though, no one can answer that question. It's impossible, as the design is that bad. IME, once someone has decided on a concept, they don't want to change, even if shown evidence it won't work. That's why when I'm DMing, I ask players to submit character concepts well ahead of time. It gives me time to say "no" if a concept is too crazy or doesn't fit the setting, early enough for the player to take another idea.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Perhaps they're attached to a particular power, or maybe their DM is a stickler for vampires taking the Vampire class, terrible as it is.
    I find it relatively inconceivable that anyone is particularly attached to "Vampire Slam."

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beta Centauri View Post
    I'm another who doesn't see much reason to switch to 5th Edition. Everything about it just seems anti-4th Edition. It's pretty annoying, just for that.

    4th Edition has some issues, and I don't like how easily a party can turn into a ridiculous circus of weird characters, but it's not much different from 3.5 in that regard, and much easier to control.

    So, I'm still playing and trying to show how it works as a role-playing game and not just tactical combat. Let me know if you need a player or a GM.

    And where are some other good 4e communities?
    I prefer 4th ed., esp. after all the time I've put into it. I just wish they would've added more content for the underdeveloped classes, like Seeker, Runepriest and Assassin. I also wish they had included more +2 attribute rings like the Opal Ring of Rememberance so that other classes would be on eual footing for accuracy, such as Monks.

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfstone View Post
    I prefer 4th ed., esp. after all the time I've put into it.
    I figure that's why people didn't want to leave 3.5, too. If a better edition comes along, one that solves some real problems, I say jump at it, regardless of any investment. I haven't seen that from 5th Edition yet. It appears to bring back a lot of old problems. If it becomes more customizable, maybe I'll switch, but for now there's no need.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfstone View Post
    I just wish they would've added more content for the underdeveloped classes, like Seeker, Runepriest and Assassin. I also wish they had included more +2 attribute rings like the Opal Ring of Rememberance so that other classes would be on eual footing for accuracy, such as Monks.
    Maybe, but why compare classes to classes? Compare them to what's needed to handle the challenges. Do monks have enough? Then they don't need that kind of item. I expect Int-based classes have enough without it, too, or that item would have been in the PHB and would not be optional.

    People have told me that one can never have enough defense or offense, but realistically there's a point at which one is "good enough" and more of something is just going to make the game too easy. I don't see the point in that.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfstone View Post
    I also wish they had included more +2 attribute rings like the Opal Ring of Rememberance so that other classes would be on eual footing for accuracy, such as Monks.
    Meh, nobody much plays at level 27 anyway
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    BardGirl

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    My group is pretty small (DM, myself, and two others) and we have no intentions to switch to 5e anytime soon, partly because I play a wizard/psion hybrid and am not quite willing to give up my mind-control, partly because nobody seems willing to try non-gridded combat, and partly because our rogue isn't enthused by the idea of wizards suddenly being able to actually *gasp* deal damage.

    I'm actually quite excited to try out spell slots for a change, because I started out in 4e and only have a passing knowledge of previous editions' spell slots, but it looks a lot more streamlined. Still, since I'm the only one who's picked up the 5e books, I guess we'll continue with 4e. Not that I'm complaining; we just hit level 10 and I'm looking forward to Paragon Tier.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beta Centauri View Post
    I'm another who doesn't see much reason to switch to 5th Edition. Everything about it just seems anti-4th Edition. It's pretty annoying, just for that.

    4th Edition has some issues, and I don't like how easily a party can turn into a ridiculous circus of weird characters, but it's not much different from 3.5 in that regard, and much easier to control.
    I agree. 4th gives melee classes more things they can do, and 5th seems like a heavily restricted rehash of the 3s, but without the large array of spells and the ability to boost consentration to prevent spell interruption the 3s had. While melee sucked in the 3s, it was better overall than 5th. I prefer 4th the most despite the way the late classes were heavily neglected (Runepriest, Seeker and Assassin) because of the better balance overall for melee pcs vs. caster pcs

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    I really like 4E, but I'm not playing it or running it atm. All the local players moved to 5E, and running a game on a forum in just too damn slow. I had maybe 3 years worth of stuff plotted out but only got through three or four encounters, and for me that was just too slow. Not a unique problem to 4E, but I think 4E struggles with it more than rules-lite stuff. Couldn't get a good group of people together for a roll20 game. So now I'm just sort of in stasis. I have no interest in 5 or going back to 3.5. Unfortunately the 4E community seems to be withering quickly.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

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  19. - Top - End - #79
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgaun7 View Post
    I really like 4E, but I'm not playing it or running it atm. All the local players moved to 5E, and running a game on a forum in just too damn slow. I had maybe 3 years worth of stuff plotted out but only got through three or four encounters, and for me that was just too slow. Not a unique problem to 4E, but I think 4E struggles with it more than rules-lite stuff. Couldn't get a good group of people together for a roll20 game. So now I'm just sort of in stasis. I have no interest in 5 or going back to 3.5. Unfortunately the 4E community seems to be withering quickly.
    If you want to start up a roll20 game for 4e, I have like 200 characters on my builder that I haven't played yet. Mostly hobgoblin.

    The first one I made had his encampment raided by murderhobos, was saved by a dire wolf, and then raised by Vistani who found him in a forest. He's on his jaunt, and is torn between seeking revenge for his old clan and seeking approval from his new clan.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    I've always been interested in roll20 games- the problem is that my schedule is just too variable to make a weekly commitment for the same time/night each week. I do have a group of friends I play regularly with, but we usually do a Doodle poll for each month to do the scheduling, so night/day can vary week to week.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    I've read up on 5E and will likely not play it.

    I really like 4E because it really benefits the adventurers to actually work together as a team, in a way that previous editions never have done.

    I like that choosing powers is less "this will make me cool" and more "this combined with the fighters power X and clerics power Y and mages power Z will be amazing"

    I think less conversation about it is because, as noted, less disagreements about how things work/should work/RAW vs RAI which were rife in 3/3.5.

    4E was approached from a "lets make things balanced" approach and I think has largely succeeded at that: there are still some issues with class disparity with fringe cases, but nothing compared to 3.5 wizard vs fighter as a simple case study.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Its completely because the rules are so damned good. The 3.5 / 5E board is always arguing about how the rules work. They would have precious little to talk about if the game rules actually were written well and didn't require direct DM intervention to function at all.
    I've played 5E and it's D&D and so therefore awesome and fun, but 4E is where my heart of hearts lies, it's just simply better.

    The lack of discussion is disheartening, but really, when you take away people arguing about what you can transform into or if a Simulacrum can make copies of itself, there isn't much to make thousands of threads about.

    Well, caster / martial disparity, another thing 4E doesn't have lol.

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by charcoalninja View Post
    Its completely because the rules are so damned good. The 3.5 / 5E board is always arguing about how the rules work. They would have precious little to talk about if the game rules actually were written well and didn't require direct DM intervention to function at all.
    I've played 5E and it's D&D and so therefore awesome and fun, but 4E is where my heart of hearts lies, it's just simply better.

    The lack of discussion is disheartening, but really, when you take away people arguing about what you can transform into or if a Simulacrum can make copies of itself, there isn't much to make thousands of threads about.

    Well, caster / martial disparity, another thing 4E doesn't have lol.
    There was a 600 page argument about the crossbow expert feat. I read all of it. I still don't know how crossbow expert works.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodshed343 View Post
    There was a 600 page argument about the crossbow expert feat. I read all of it. I still don't know how crossbow expert works.
    Yes. There was also a huge ongoing thread (with FAQ) on how exactly the steatlh rules are supposed to work. Plus of course a weekly thread on why (rituals / skill challenges / certain low-tier classes) do or do not suck.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurald galain View Post
    yes. There was also a huge ongoing thread (with faq) on how exactly the steatlh rules are supposed to work. Plus of course a weekly thread on why (rituals / skill challenges / certain low-tier classes) do or do not suck.
    600 pages?!?
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  26. - Top - End - #86
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    to be honest that is internet gold!
    only on the internet can a heated debate occur about something like this.

    the stealth rules in 4E were pretty odd, until you read the rules of hidden club, which were very interested and entirely changed my game.
    (I was being a bad DM, hats off, I admit it)
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by its_all_ogre View Post
    to be honest that is internet gold!
    only on the internet can a heated debate occur about something like this.

    the stealth rules in 4E were pretty odd, until you read the rules of hidden club, which were very interested and entirely changed my game.
    (I was being a bad DM, hats off, I admit it)
    I seen a couple of players who used stealth heavily. One of them became almost immune because the GM we were playing with didn't account for it. When I had a player who used it as a ranged character, I tried to not let him get away with it too much to the detriment of the rest of the party, but it was still somewhat irritating to deal with. Mostly because I felt like I had to include enemies or mechanics specifically to get him, which is inelegant.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Dimers's Avatar

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Huh. I've never had an issue with 4e stealth -- in fact, at first it struck me as extremely unlikely to work, requiring 100% cover/conceal to start and never-interrupted minimal cover/conceal to maintain (and cover against attacks doesn't count). I've seen enough builds now that provide their own concealment that I understand it's possible, and of course 4e's battlegrid focus promotes more interesting stuff on battlefields that a thoughtful sneak could hide behind. But it's still not a huge exploit if the DM follows the rules.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Huh. I've never had an issue with 4e stealth -- in fact, at first it struck me as extremely unlikely to work, requiring 100% cover/conceal to start and never-interrupted minimal cover/conceal to maintain (and cover against attacks doesn't count). I've seen enough builds now that provide their own concealment that I understand it's possible, and of course 4e's battlegrid focus promotes more interesting stuff on battlefields that a thoughtful sneak could hide behind. But it's still not a huge exploit if the DM follows the rules.
    It's the ones that provide their own that cause issues.

    Fortunately, auras and AoEs don't care how hidden you are...
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

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  30. - Top - End - #90
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The 4e community seems a bit dead.

    had some stealth using characters, but suspect the ability of a character to remain hidden at all times lies in the improper use of the stealth rules.

    area attacks ignoring concealment penalties are a big thing that my players have relied upon when facing invisible enemies (who are not hidden) and also using high perception characters to pinpoint invisible and hidden enemies.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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