Theory: How much stats can be rammed into one character ?

[unbutu]

Edit: So the TLDR: Who can make a character as close to D12 HP (Barbarian), 3 good saves (Monk), Full Bab, with lvl 9 spells ?

So I was looking at Eldritch Kight ( High Bab, High Spell lvl), Mystic Theurge (Dual High Spell Level) and Paladin (Full BAB, High HP, High Saves).

I was wondering which, of any build, had the most of all '' Stats '' . How much BAB, HP, Saves ands Spell Progression can we fit into a single character, using every pathfinder core tool at our disposal ?

I'd like to do this by ignoring class features. (The examples of EK and MT show how you can give away all good class features for a better progression.

What we would look for is how much they have, at lvl 20, in these categories ( You can suggest if you see somehting to add).*I'm not sure how to account for garanteed, permanent abilities like Paladin's CHA to saves. Maybe 15 point buy and regulard wealth by level for everyone ? Everyone has the same items and stats, just say if something important needs to be known.

Those characters would all take Toughness, so don't list it. Same for divine protection, it's easy to see if they qualify.

HP: D12, D10, D8, ect.

AC Armor Type, AC bonus, ect

Spell progression: Highest spell lvl they can cast.

Saves: Good Saves (LVL/2 +2), Bad Saves (Lvl/3)

Spell Resistance Format: X+Lvl or X

BAB Full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/2-X, ect.

DR 1/4 LvL, X, ect.

Examples:

Drow Sacred Servant Paladin 20:
D10
Full BAB
SR: 6+ LVL
Heavy Armor
Divine 9th lvl (Cleric 17)
Saves: 2 Good, 1 Bad (+CHA)

Aasimar Sacred Servant Paladin 9, Wizard 1, Eldritch Knight 10

D10 (Except 1d6)
Full bab -1
Arcane 5th, Divine 3rd (Wizard 10, Cleric 6)
1 good, 2 bad saves

(Compare to Bloodrager 20: Full BaB, D10, Arcane 4th, 2 good saves)

Spoiler: RIP

Show

Wizard 2/Cleric1/Mystic Theurge 7/Evangelist 10 (Qualify with spell-like ability for MT)

(Does not work because Evangelist does not ''create'' MT levels.

D6x9, D8x11
Divine 9th Lvl, Arcane 9th LVL (Wizard 18, Cleric 17)
Saves: 3 BAD (a bit more)
BAB: 1/2 x9, 3/4 x11

Don't know how to use, but could be good:

3 levels: Inheritor's crusader (D10, Full Bab, Full Cleric progression, 2 good saves)
10 Levels: Eldrich Knight (D10, Full bab, 9/10 Arcane) ( But match it with what to keep a good bab & spells after the 10 levels ? )
10 levels: Champion of Iori (3 good saves, d8, Full bab)
20 levels: Slayer: Full bab, 6d6 sneak, d10 HP, 2 good saves

[grarrrg]

I'll try to come up with something for this... got a few ideas.
And I'm not sure "everyone" will want to take Divine Protection, Toughness sure, but ANYONE can take Toughness. Divine Protection has a solid "divine" requirement that not everyone will necessarily want/need.
That and if you are already Paladin it becomes pretty lackluster.

Aasimar Wizard2/Cleric1/Mystic Theurge 7/Evangelist 10 (Qualify with spell-like abilityfor MT)

Divine 9th Lvl, Arcane 9th LVL (Wizard 18, Cleric 17)

Evangelist doesn't quite do what you want it to do.
(minor) Evangelist likely needs to target a _base_ class to continue progression. There is some wiggle room here though that it might work with PrC's.
(major) Mystic Theurge stops at level 10. There is _nothing_ after level 10. Once you hit an effective Theurge level of 10 you're done. There is no "Theurge 11" to copy.

[unbutu]

Made the corrections. Eager to see what you'll come up with.

[Orsyn]

Are we talking strictly abstracted stats like you have in the first post (i.e. d12, x good saves, etc.)? What about builds that output sheer numbers in such a way as to outperform good abstracted stats?

[unbutu]

I'd definitly like to stick to '' as much stats as possible'' even if there are some very good things out there.

I feel in the end, it would all come back to a mage, or a variation of a psionic...

Well, you make me realise. The part I care the most about is regularity. I'd like someone who does not have gimmicks, buff rounds. He wakes up in the morning and he's as good as it gets. He's already there with nonsense hp, save, bab, waiting to do his best.

(I've opened up asking also about casters, and it's fine if the propositions are, say, a cleric that spends his wealth by level on Permanency buffs on himself, and becomes better than any warrior because of that. I don't care how he does it, but i'd really like to see that ''at his best all day everyday'' guy.)

So I suppose what I would want to max first is:

BAB
HP
SAVES
DR
SR


----------------
One reason for this research is, I suppose, the DM that I'm playing with at the moment. We do so many encounters / day that a blaster sorcerer would run totally dry. A CC wizard throwing 1 extremely good spell per encounter might be usefull if the rest of the team is martial-heavy, but otherwise no class has enough uses/day of anything to make it trough.

[grarrrg]

Well, for a quick-and-dirty entry, I'm going to have to go back to good old Slippery Pete (w/some tweaks).

Monk 2/Inquisitor 12/Paladin 2/Halfling Opportunist 4

Monk 2 has all good Saves and Evasion. Let's go with Sohei archetype, as this lets us use Flurry while wearing Light Armor (WIS-to-AC is an option, but given 15 pt-buy we likely cannot afford a decent score).

Inquisitor 12 grants Stalwart, which is Evasion for Fort and Will saves, has 6 Skills/level and good Fort/Will saves. The Purity Judgement can grant +3 Sacred to all Saves, and if we go Protection Domain that's an additional +3 Resistance all Saves (Optional: a Cloak will be better but doesn't stack). Judgement can be used 4 times a day (lasts for duration of Encounter), and we can add any TWO Judgement effects, boosts Attacks, or AC, or getting DR, or...

Paladin is pretty straight forward. All about that CHA to all Saves. The Iroran archetype will let us add +2 to AC in Light Armor (Limited by CHA or Paladin level). The "not smite" from Iroran is a 1/day "+1 anything" vs. a single target.

Halfling Opportunist 4, has good REF/WILL saves, and at 2nd and 4th adds +1 to our Halfling Luck Racial trait bringing it up to +3 all saves.


Stat priority will be DEX>CHA>CON. Recommend Weapon Finesse-based attacks, using Agile or one of the new "Grace" feats to get DEX-to-Damage.
Hit dice are all d8's, and Bab is 3/4, except for the 2 levels of Paladin.
Skills are mostly 6 per level, except for Monk (4) and Paladin (2).
Saving Throws will be through the roof, and with Stalwart/Evasion there is little chance of anything 'sticking'.

[unbutu]

I like Pete. The Hobbit gave me so much love for halflings :)

He fits pretty well the bill.

So Pete is a case of being eligble for Divine Protection, right ? Would give you the CHA to saves earlier, and you get 2 more levels of something else... Is there something better to do with those 2 levels ?



Edit:
1lvl: Oracle Sidestep Secret: Full Cha AC, CHA to REF

Need 1 feat for cha to saves (Dex becomes strenght)

VS

2 lvl: Paladin Ioran : 2 CHA to AC + full CHA to saves

Need 2 Feats for DEX to damage + to hit.

-----
Am I missing something ? The reason not to do this is because oracle has less interesting saves ?

[unbutu]

Coming back from the dead threads because Pete made me think about this: It's quite true that the saves are a big weakness on low tier meat classes, wich need it the most.

I tought: Well, if barbarian is supposed to be quite strong, what about a divine-barian ?

With full bab, d12, decent skill points, what he needs is saves, eh ? Would it be worth a 2 level dip in antipaladin ?

That would suppose you have enough points after STR-)CON-)DEX-) to go charisma. I suppose barbarians still want some dex because of medium armor. But now, you get heavy armor proficiency because of antipaladin, and actually get the best AC at the cost of the 10ft fast movement of barbarians (And the normal penalty for the armor)

So that would be quite the slow Barbarian. What if, instead, we prioritise STR-)CON-)CHA, and dip only 1 level, in oracle. Lore mystery ''Sidestep Secret'' makes armor class depend on CHA, and reflex save as well. Dex is now a dump stat, as much as cha was before.

Then, using a race spell-like ability to qualify the spellcasting requierement for Divine protection (along with oracle mystery class feature) you get CHA bonus to all saves for the cost of the feat.

Oracle 1/Barbarian 19

AC: Based on cha
Reflex Save: Based on CHA + CHA
Will save: CHA+WIS (The weakest save)
Fort Save: CHA+CON (Strong)

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On a slightly related note (Getting lots of stats on one character), human have acces to a feat at level 1 I had not noticed before: Fast learner.

In most cases, it's value is comparable to toughness. If you need your favored class bonus + the hit points, it's possible with that feat.

On the other hand, it could simply be 20 HP and 20 skill points over your 20 levels. Twice what you normally get :)