I don't get what Xykon meant in his power=power speech

[CaDzilla]

What is the meaning behind it? Is it any different from

Spoiler: SOD spoiler

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that speech he gave Dorukan?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

He was referring to V's temporary soul splice. The gist of it was, "try something a little more permanent, like becoming a lich."

[rodneyAnonymous]

Part of the message was that power takes different forms.

[asorel]

Being powerful doesn't imply being in a position of power. Imposing your will over others, for good or for ill, isn't something that spontaneously manifests with some fancy toys. You have to earn it.

[Gnome Alone]

A) Power doesn't have to take the form of superior force; witness V's wielding of "ultimate arcane power" like a club; foiled by a racial bonus on Listen checks. (Well, and hubris. And bad luck. Et cetera; I digress.)

B) I think he was also kind of implying that power needs no justification; like, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it, X can just kill V. With his bare skeletal hands or his meteor swarms. Might makes right. Or, he'd probably say something like, there is no right, just might. Might is might; power is power. I may be reading too much into this.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Essentially, what Xykon means is that power is more than simply having tons of arcane power at your disposal. Power is all about how you use it and how well it can be applied to the situation.

[Vinsfeld]

I guess he's saying that V's never had any power in the first place. V used time stop, but failed the concentration check. And V didn't have any other form of protection from the spells, he/she didn't have any kind of strategy against Xykon. And then V lost all his "greater power" by failing a will save check.

And even not using any spells, Xykon was able to hear the invisible V and choke him/her almost to death. Just by having power.

[Koo Rehtorb]

He meant power isn't just having a lot of high level spell slots.

Power is also things like attack bonus, hit points, saving throws, good all around stats, superior tactics, etc. V got bit for having a too narrow focus.

[littlebum2002]

The Soul Splice gave V lots of extra spell slots, which V equated with power, but since he still had poor saves, he ended up losing. In that case, having a high save was more powerful than just spell slots.

[The Patterner]

I'd say he meant that power is not a fixed asset but rather something that changes with circumstances. being strong is only valid when strength is a factor. Being rich only matters when money can get you things.

Essentially it's like this. A big and strong person will generally have more power then a small weak one. A smart person will generally have more power then a stupid one. But, there will always be situations when beings strong, or smart simply won't help you.

Survival of the fittest and all of that.

[Killer Angel]

You can also see it as "power is anything that puts you over your opponent"

[Peelee]

To put it bluntly, it's not how big it is, it's how you use it. Even Samuel L. Jackson with a shotgun is no match for Akeem, Prince of Zamunda, armed with a mop handle. V's massive arcane power was used poorly. And Xykon depowered him not with a spell, but with a rock. Sure, being better armed definitely ups your chances, but if you don't know how to use it, you're still probably going to lose.

[factotum]

And Xykon depowered him not with a spell, but with a rock.

Well, a rock and his lich strength--I doubt the living Xykon would have been able to pick up that rock, much less hit V with it!

[Koo Rehtorb]

Living Xykon was that strong, actually. Being a lich doesn't increase your str score. Turning into a lich just erased his old age penalties, but young Xykon probably had like 18 str anyway.

[Big Hungry Joe]

I took it to mean that if you are powerful, it will manifest regardless of your circumstances (i.e., the specific type or manifestation of your power doesn't matter, it's all balanced such as the +8 racial Listen bonus). And if you're not powerful, then nothing can fully disguise or make up for that fact. V had an overload of arcane power, but couldn't manage a relatively easy concentration check, or even manage his spell strategy properly. The most effective ones he cast were relatively low level ones like invisibility and explosive runes.

What I always thought was cool was how Xykon's speech also applied to other things going on in those scenes -- such as O-Chul maiming and chasing off Redcloak while using nothing but diapers and a metal bar, or the MitD "defeating" Xykon by stealing his kills. There are a number of characters involved that are truly powerful, not just Xykon. I wonder if he'll notice.

[Tev]

All answers can be summarized by "it's said in the context of his longer speech about power". Especially the line right before it: "I used to think spells equaled power, too . . ."

What I always thought was cool was how Xykon's speech also applied to other things going on in those scenes -- such as O-Chul maiming and chasing off Redcloak while using nothing but diapers and a metal bar, or the MitD "defeating" Xykon by stealing his kills. There are a number of characters involved that are truly powerful, not just Xykon. I wonder if he'll notice.

Now that's great observation, thanks!

[halfeye]

It is interesting that there are so many different answers being offered here.

For my part I think it means what it says. Power comes in many forms but all the forms of power depend on circumstances to be useful, and if the form that is available to you is useful in your circumstances, then you have power.

[Snails]

What I always thought was cool was how Xykon's speech also applied to other things going on in those scenes -- such as O-Chul maiming and chasing off Redcloak while using nothing but diapers and a metal bar, or the MitD "defeating" Xykon by stealing his kills. There are a number of characters involved that are truly powerful, not just Xykon. I wonder if he'll notice.

Elegant observation.

My Bardic Knowledge roll suggests that Xykon's speech with eventually prove to be ironic. At that nanosecond in time, he is the most insightful about the nature of power and how it applies to the world as it exists -- he has more inside knowledge about the players and stakes. But, in the end, O'Chul, V, and MitD will probably prove to master the lesson better than Xykon.

[Trickquestion]

I think he means that real power comes from inside, from your mindset. That in order to be truly powerful, you need to be ruthless enough to use everything you have to its fullest advantage and control it absolutely. Someone like V can't use things like the Soul Splice to overshadow their inner weakness because they didn't earn it, and because they didn't earn it, they don't have full control off it.

[FireJustice]

Xykon defeated both Dorukan and V the same way, exploiting their weakness.

his speech can be even more deep:
"The real size of power is the one of you weakness"

V has his splice, but still his low saves

and Dorukan, well, lets just say even a wizard can make bad decisions if poked right

[Bulldog Psion]

My two possible interpretations are:

1. Power equals power means "use everything you have to the utmost, at the right moment."

2. That whole speech was just sort of meant to sound meaningful by Xykon, without actually having any real message. Just taunting V with some kind of "I'm more powerful than you with those soul splices, jackass!" rant.

[137beth]

Essentially, what Xykon means is that power is more than simply having tons of arcane power at your disposal. Power is all about how you use it and how well it can be applied to the situation.

I think this is the main meaning.

There's another layer too, though: Xykon was displaying another kind of Power that he has that V may not. Xykon was demonstrating the Power to captivate an audience with mere words. It is a kind of power that didn't require him to cast a single spell, or use any class features. And, IMO, that scene remains one of the most Powerful moments in all of OOTS.

[Darth Paul]

I keep coming back to Xykon's taunting V about "power you can lose by failing a will save", i.e. the power of the Soul Slice, not being real power at all. And he was absolutely right; Vaarsuvius never earned that power, it was a gift from the IFCC. As a consequence, s/he had no idea what to do with it.

An analogy occurred to me between two people playing a video game. One has levelled a character up from the start of the game, so that he/she knows all the right moves, knows the weapons, knows the strategies; another has been handed the controller by someone and told, "Here, you can play my character, he's 20th level," and starts frantically mashing buttons. This is a false analogy to a large degree, yes, but I think there is a core truth to it. Vaarsuvius was handed a lot of power that V never earned and had no real idea what to do with; that was obvious in the fight against the Black Dragon.

[Silferdrake]

Living Xykon was that strong, actually. Being a lich doesn't increase your str score. Turning into a lich just erased his old age penalties, but young Xykon probably had like 18 str anyway.

I've actually never considered this. But you're right. Xykon must have a really good strength score. There's actually a lot of evidence to this, such as:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Beating Master Fyron to death with the statue (and even then he was quite old when he did that). And then, after his penalties has been removed he's snapping Lirian's neck with his bare hands, carrying both Redcloak and Right Eye at once.

A nice little detail in my opinion.

[Tragak]

I've actually never considered this. But you're right. Xykon must have a really good strength score. There's actually a lot of evidence to this, such as:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Beating Master Fyron to death with the statue (and even then he was quite old when he did that). And then, after his penalties has been removed he's snapping Lirian's neck with his bare hands, carrying both Redcloak and Right Eye at once.

A nice little detail in my opinion.

Even if his STR score itself isn't memorable, he could always be the kind of guy who uses Bull's Strength and telekineses to create a "cooler" effect of doing things with his bare hands.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I've actually never considered this. But you're right. Xykon must have a really good strength score. There's actually a lot of evidence to this, such as:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Beating Master Fyron to death with the statue (and even then he was quite old when he did that). And then, after his penalties has been removed he's snapping Lirian's neck with his bare hands, carrying both Redcloak and Right Eye at once.

A nice little detail in my opinion.

Huh, that is interesting. More evidence that people in OOTS tend to have nice ability scores.

[Darth Paul]

Huh, that is interesting. More evidence that people in OOTS tend to have nice ability scores.

I pointed out in another thread that adventurers and villains who don't have higher than average scores don't tend to live that long in their chosen profession, so it's a sort of natural selection; we wouldn't be reading about a group of high-level PCs and NPCs who all had stats like 12, 11, 9, 10, 11, 10. Those characters would get weeded out pretty early in their adventuring lives. The goblins, orcs, kobolds, skeletons, bandits, etc. would see to that fairly rapidly.

Also, I think some self-selection would take place. "I have Strength and Constitution of 11. INT, WIS, DEX of 10. My Charisma is only 9. Should I be a Fighter, a Cleric, or, maybe, a streetsweeper?"

[EclipseDarkSun]

It's like this. There's a couple of ways you can look at it.

E.g.

1. The main point by Xykon

If you roll up a level 20 DND character if you've never played DND before, you will not be as tactically skilled as someone who's been playing the character from level 1 and has earnt every level, every save bonus etc. You'll make bad decisions and probably be overconfident in some areas and unnecessarily paranoid about others. E.g. an example from my gaming - I play World of Tanks and I'm not that great a player, atm anyway. If I was to buy a tier 8 heavy tank, I'd still be trounced by many people who'd played each tier of tank, which allowed them to get the next tier, one at a time, because they'd have probably hundreds or thousands more games under their belt as players.

2. A secondary point by Xykon

Sure, a mage is the most powerful character at level 20 when you look at the spells, but there are other measures of power and situations when your power is not able to be applied - e.g. Xykon's use of multiple energy drain as a sorcerer followed by acute senses and touch attacks, countered Vaarsuvius' superior spell load, because a) his lack of saving throw bonuses were a major weakness and b) he's a squishy hp creature when his spells are out.

For a popular culture example of this - here's a youtube video from Game of Thrones, where Cersei tells Littlefinger (who has an enormous amount of influence and power due to his spy network's blackmail possibilities and his own economic knowledge) that knowledge isn't power, power is power. Which is a response to him threatening her with exposure of her unsavory sexual relationship with her brother (she started it of course). This is a pretty classic example of this second point of Xykon's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvkuePL7oDY

[Killer Angel]

and Dorukan, well, lets just say even a wizard can make bad decisions if poked right

Yep, this is a can of worms that we don't want to open again.

[Jay R]

He's replying specifically to Vaarsuvius's statement, "My power ... EXCEEDS yours." and generally to Vaarsuvius's belief that only arcane power matters. V has thus has ignored many things, including the fact that the connection to these three two wizards is tenuous. Vs has a connection to a great deal of arcane magic, but nothing else. So Xykon only has to break the connections, and Vaarsuvius is close to helpless.