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    Default Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek - no flame wars please

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    FTL isn't the whole fight, but its about half of it...
    Look, the notion of Star Wars or Star Trek weapons having ranges of megatons or kilotons or teratons or whatever is kind of flawed, because, as actually decent science fiction, neither series makes calculating precise values an important part of the creative process, so you're going to have a range of values. Some will be high, and some will be low (blowing up asteroids versus Slave I shooting at Obi-Wan on Kamino, missing, and leaving him pretty much fine despite being right next to the blast).
    ...and this is why.
    Well every single calculation is flawed to begin with. The matter is more complex than our pay grade. Like I've never seen anyone ever try to tackle speed, for example the asteroid everyone get's hung up on in SW is moving at least 350mph towards the Star Destroyer and how fast is the Star Destroyer moving towards the asteroid? Turbolasers deliver a kinetic impact, it's why the Falcon was knocked off course from a direct hit and why the asteroid blew up (fyi it wasn't atomized). RPaladin's link even used the vaporization of silicone rather than the boiling point to measure how much heat was delivered even through generally liquids instantly boil off in space due to the lack of atmosphere. Even the asteroid is a lie, it's one demonstration and higher than everything seen in return of the jedi during the battle of Endor.

    Speaking of, @RPaladin I already knew about and mentioned of the 31,000TJ figure and how it was based on pure speculation of size. That's also the reason I thought everyone was saying stardestroyer.net made up their numbers, I didn't know there was more than one article on there (as I've said before) with grossly incorrect calculations. And you claimed I cannot prove having weapons in the megatons can reduce Earth into plasma, and you're right. I have no idea how much energy it takes to reduce a planet into plasma. That's why I said liquid magma. I also said meters thick which means 2~10m, not the twelve million meter planet wide figure but a tiny fraction of it. Really the only debatable part would be if it would appear as a shower of sparks flying off the planet, well no it'd be gases escaping. And that's all you're going to get on the subject. When the weapon count proved things true you claimed I said batteries instead of turbolasers, when I said liquid and you googled the proof you came back and said plasma. If you're just going to change what I say then why say anything to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    3D printers could be seen as the vastly distant ancestors of both, maybe?
    The star forge is the ancestor of replicators. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    creating a gram of mass, cannot possibly consume less than 89.9 terajoules of energy. If the process is significantly less than 100% efficient, it will consume a lot more.
    And replicators are normally used to fed the crew of a typical ST ship. The Enterprise D was designed to hold up to 1,012 people, each of which ate 2~5 pounds of food per day.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Maybe they need the antimatter because that's what the engines run on.

    Come to think of it - given how hard it is to manufacture antimatter in the first place - perhaps that's how they get so much so quickly - via replicators converting matter into antimatter?
    They use a magical element known as dilithium for energy.

    When heated up it produces antimatter in ridiculous made up amounts. Enough energy is produced to run at warp 9+ (requires a constant stream of 1.2 exajoules), feed everyone (see above), and restock weaponry. It appears that a ship stockpiles enough of it's power source that it can maintain it's peak performance for decades but not for 75 years unless you reduce the usage of replicators.

  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek - no flame wars please

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Voyager had bartered and resupplied along the way, and finding a way to make Borg transwarp tech would have been the best chance they had at making it home in a reasonable time period (and in fact is the route taken in "Endgame", via the Borg conduit hub). The only transwarp coils they used were what they could scavenge from existing Borg vessels, which meant that Voyager was incapable of replicating the technology.
    But they did mount one on the Delta Flyer and it worked. And the Borg seem quite a bit farther along then the Empire. They stole only one coil of an array and, perhaps unwisely, used it for a 20k LY jump home before it burned out. They did not have a whole system to engineer. So they never really had a drive to try to engineer. Just a part.



    They would still be at the front of the hyperlane. If you're going to steal a hyperdrive, doing it from the warfront against an enemy that has easy logistics is about as stupid as trying to purloin a fighter jet off the deck of an enemy aircraft carrier. The minute the ship gets ambushed, it would call for backup, and the task force would be swarmed with Star Destroyers before they can finish their scans.
    And how many times were they able to cloak a shuttle to enemy sensors? Sensors stronger than what the Empire has shown?

    It is if you're trying to beam out an ISD's reactor. The thing is huge.
    Yet, like ST they have an ejection system in case it goes critical. Suggesting it is possible to eject it and survive. So it should not be enormous. Now if there are multiple ones...then sure. But the idea that the Federation will get a hyperdrive is not that far fetched. Even if they get a smaller one from a non SD.

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek - no flame wars please

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    They use a magical element known as dilithium for energy.

    When heated up it produces antimatter in ridiculous made up amounts. Enough energy is produced to run at warp 9+ (requires a constant stream of 1.2 exajoules), feed everyone (see above), and restock weaponry. It appears that a ship stockpiles enough of it's power source that it can maintain it's peak performance for decades but not for 75 years unless you reduce the usage of replicators.
    That's not actually how they say Dilithium works in any of the Star Trek technical material (it's actually a regulator for the matter/antimatter reaction, the antimatter and matter streams are fed into the warp core so that they collide on the surface of a dilithium crystal and this focuses the usable energy into a collectable plasma stream)

    Dilithium is not involved in the production of antimatter, just in its use in energy generation in a warp core. (Dilithium cannot be replicated)

    Federation vessels have a device called a Quantum Charge Reversal Device which can produce small amounts of antimatter as an emergency fuel supply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grolim View Post
    Now the Borg did not fight back like the Empire does, but I am certain the Empire does not have experience with people materializing behind the security doors on sensitive areas. As for self destruct, it would depend on the countdown. Sure it was funny in the movies to have the Klingons get to the bridge during the countdown, but beaming out a fusion reaction that is still building to overload is not unreasonable. Or just capture some engineers, beam as many off a doomed ship before it explodes as prisoners to interrogate.
    Given that Federation transporters are rendered inoperable by a few feet of dirt or proximity to a planetary magnetic pole among many other things, to include shields, I see no reason to believe they'd be able to do anything like simply beam aboard with impunity, to say nothing of actually beaming out the reactor. If they could do that, they'd be beaming out other peoples' warp cores every chance they got.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    Well every single calculation is flawed to begin with. The matter is more complex than our pay grade. Like I've never seen anyone ever try to tackle speed, for example the asteroid everyone get's hung up on in SW is moving at least 350mph towards the Star Destroyer and how fast is the Star Destroyer moving towards the asteroid? Turbolasers deliver a kinetic impact, it's why the Falcon was knocked off course from a direct hit and why the asteroid blew up (fyi it wasn't atomized). RPaladin's link even used the vaporization of silicone rather than the boiling point to measure how much heat was delivered even through generally liquids instantly boil off in space due to the lack of atmosphere. Even the asteroid is a lie, it's one demonstration and higher than everything seen in return of the jedi during the battle of Endor.
    Silicon*

    The asteroids clearly vaporized. Watch the scene; they weren't knocked around or broken apart, but turned near-instantly white hot and faded out in red mist that rapidly disappeared.

    As for "higher than everything seen in return of the jedi," we don't know that. We can't know that because there are too many variables; not only the power of the weapons but the shield strength and hull durability of their targets. We don't know precisely what the ships are made of, we don't know the dissipation rate of the shields, and we don't know the power of the weapons, so there isn't a calculation to be made. The reason the asteroid scenes from Empire and Attack of the Clones (there's a fun one) are used is because there's something there to work with, not because they're outliers (which we can't determine because the various space battles have too many variables to calculate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    Speaking of, @RPaladin I already knew about and mentioned of the 31,000TJ figure and how it was based on pure speculation of size. That's also the reason I thought everyone was saying stardestroyer.net made up their numbers, I didn't know there was more than one article on there (as I've said before) with grossly incorrect calculations.
    Calculations are easy. If you think they're incorrect, prove it. Math doesn't lie. Even Darkstar back in the heyday of this debate on the versus debate newsgroups could never find fault with the math; he and his compatriots only ever tried to change the starting variables (when they weren't simply engaging in sophistry, that is).

    And "speculation" is hilarious. It was measured, using methodology documented right there on the same page. If you have an issue with the measurement, please elaborate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    And you claimed I cannot prove having weapons in the megatons can reduce Earth into plasma, and you're right. I have no idea how much energy it takes to reduce a planet into plasma. That's why I said liquid magma. I also said meters thick which means 2~10m, not the twelve million meter planet wide figure but a tiny fraction of it. Really the only debatable part would be if it would appear as a shower of sparks flying off the planet, well no it'd be gases escaping. And that's all you're going to get on the subject. When the weapon count proved things true you claimed I said batteries instead of turbolasers, when I said liquid and you googled the proof you came back and said plasma. If you're just going to change what I say then why say anything to you?
    Excuse me?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    Goblets of plasma would stream off the backside of the planet like a sprinkler system creating new moons and asteroids.
    I am not a moderator on this forum. I cannot edit your posts. That is exactly what you said, incorrect word use and all (albeit with emphasis added to make sure you can't miss it this time); anyone can click the view post link on the quote and see it. It is your claim; I did not make you say it.
    Quote Originally Posted by grolim View Post
    And how many times were they able to cloak a shuttle to enemy sensors? Sensors stronger than what the Empire has shown?
    Given that they're banned by treaty from possessing cloaking devices (as a result of a war they won, for some reason), I'm going to go ahead and say none, USS Defiant excepted (as an explicit exception to the treaty).
    Quote Originally Posted by grolim View Post
    Yet, like ST they have an ejection system in case it goes critical. Suggesting it is possible to eject it and survive. So it should not be enormous. Now if there are multiple ones...then sure. But the idea that the Federation will get a hyperdrive is not that far fetched. Even if they get a smaller one from a non SD.
    The big bulb on the bottom of the ship contains the reactor. While that includes armor and shielding, it is in fact enormous.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2014-12-16 at 06:19 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #545
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    Default Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek - no flame wars please

    Quote Originally Posted by grolim View Post
    But the idea that the Federation will get a hyperdrive is not that far fetched. Even if they get a smaller one from a non SD.
    Right, it's not so much "far" fetched as "astronomically" fetched. And even if they somehow got one, actually being able to do anything with it far is beyond even that. Remember: unknown device, which performs an unknown function, according to unknown physical laws, made from unknown materials; and "reverse engineering" is a difficult enough proposition when you're at near-parity with the culture which produced the object you're trying to copy. In a case like this you don't even know if your analytical tools are up to the task of detecting the device's critical features - for all you know you're the equivalent of Thomas Edison being handed a modern microprocessor and being told to figure out how it works in order to duplicate it. Good luck with that when you're several iterations short on the "build the tools needed to make the tools needed to make the tools..." ladder.
    Last edited by Philistine; 2014-12-16 at 06:59 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek - no flame wars please

    Not to mention all the things that could go horribly, horribly wrong during the testing. Even if we just give them a hyperdrive gift-wrapped in a shiny box, the odds of them successfully reverse-engineering it are far less than the odds of them accidentally sucking the entire research facility down a one-way shunt into hyperspace, or just accidentally breaking some irreparable component. And the odds of a horrific disaster go way, way up if they have partial/limited knowledge of what it is - an Imperial equivalent to a warp drive - and treat it like it's a warp drive. Utter ignorance of anything it could possibly be used for is actually safer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Dilithium is not involved in the production of antimatter, just in its use in energy generation in a warp core. (Dilithium cannot be replicated).
    Yeah I see it now.

    In TOS they produced power, memory alpha even gives the exact episodes this is mentioned, but TNG seems to have reconned it into regulation purposes only and provided the quantum charge reversal device (in addition to the collectors) so the writers could move away from limited-power plot lines Voyager would repick up on in an attempt to appeal to the fan base.

    @RP, goblets are either hand sized cups or another name for a drop which I'm sure would be produced. You could have me on moons through. With the same pattern as before, 400 kilotons per you, 30 shots per minute for the slower rated anh's opening vs the faster firing rate during the asteroid, 100 evenly powered turbolasers instead of the 114 turbo and 50 heavy differentials, five ships because a fleet would have to contain more than that, would 8,640,000 megaton minimal figure be enough to knock a chunk large enough to be called a moon into space without blowing it to smithereens? Probably not. The description makes a cool picture in your head through.

    Oh and watch the scene frame by frame your self some time. You can see where the special effect was cut out and pasted into the composition. You can also see bits of brown on the edges. Either someone had cookie covered fingers or normal unheated rock flew "off screen" only to mysteriously vanish. Either way, it's not vaporized material because it happens after the initial explosion.
    Last edited by Mato; 2014-12-16 at 08:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek - no flame wars please

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    @RP, goblets are either hand sized cups or another name for a drop which I'm sure would be produced. You could have me on moons through. With the same pattern as before, 400 kilotons per you, 30 shots per minute for the slower rated anh's opening vs the faster firing rate during the asteroid, 100 evenly powered turbolasers instead of the 114 turbo and 50 heavy differentials, five ships because a fleet would have to contain more than that, would 8,640,000 megaton minimal figure be enough to knock a chunk large enough to be called a moon into space without blowing it to smithereens? Probably not. The description makes a cool picture in your head through.
    First of all, no it isn't. The word you're searching for is gobbet. And that's not even the point; you said I was making things up when I said you claimed it would produce plasma and asked you to prove it, which is demonstrably untrue.

    And I don't know. For the third time, the Chicxulub asteroid struck with the force of a 100 teraton bomb - or 100,000,000 megatons. And just so you know, that's not the event that produced the Moon, and it most certainly did not blow the planet to smithereens, or even end all forms of complex life - in short, it was not enough to be analogous to what's described as Base Delta Zero. Not only is 8.6 million megatons not enough, it's not even in the right order of magnitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    Oh and watch the scene frame by frame your self some time. You can see where the special effect was cut out and pasted into the composition. You can also see bits of brown on the edges. Either someone had cookie covered fingers or normal unheated rock flew "off screen" only to mysteriously vanish. Either way, it's not vaporized material because it happens after the initial explosion.
    Have you paid attention to the sources you've been citing? Introducing the minimum amount of energy required to vaporize (or melt, for that matter) the object, and no more energy than that, in a fraction of a second won't result in the effect that same fraction of a second; it will take time to propagate throughout the material. Every page you've linked (except Darkstar's) has made this clear in its text. The more you overdo it, the faster the effect will be. The asteroids' destruction wasn't technically instant, but they only took a fraction of a second each, which heavily suggests firepower many times the nominal lower limit.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2014-12-16 at 09:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philistine View Post
    Furthermore, it's abundantly clear in the films that SW ships already use computers to calculate hyperspace jumps, but you're claiming Federation superiority in computing here because... why, exactly? Likewise, you assume that the more-technologically-developed Empire can't "reverse engineer" ST tech at least as easily as the less-technologically-developed Federation "reverse engineers" SW tech because... why, exactly?
    The computers in Star Wars appear heavily divergent from our computers. They manage things like AI, something we can't, but their guns appear to need gunners instead of using something like this. Would have been pretty useful when trying to shoot down those fighters. Or those protons torpedoes and their apparently inability to hit the exhaust port with just their own guidance when compared to modern American Missiles?

    On the asteroids: They explode when struck by other asteroids. They're contact explosives. Well probably something more like this. Point is they are explosive and blowing them up is not particularly impressive.
    Last edited by Lamech; 2014-12-16 at 08:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    The computers in Star Wars appear heavily divergent from our computers. They manage things like AI, something we can't, but their guns appear to need gunners instead of using something like this. Would have been pretty useful when trying to shoot down those fighters. Or those protons torpedoes and their apparently inability to hit the exhaust port with just their own guidance when compared to modern American Missiles?
    The Death Star was heavily jamming the fighters' sensors and presumably also their missile guidance. Given that the torpedoes demonstrated the ability to make a 72,000G turn by turning 90 degrees into the exhaust port in less than the port's length, I think it's fair to say that in optimal conditions they can be quite precise; there's no reason to have that maneuvering capability if they lack the homing to use it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    On the asteroids: They explode when struck by other asteroids. They're contact explosives. Well probably something more like this. Point is they are explosive and blowing them up is not particularly impressive.
    Work heating is a thing. The asteroids that make big flashes on impact with each other clearly are breaking up; you can see large pieces moving away afterward. This is exactly what one would expect. Besides, what kind of process would result in an asteroid field made of tannerite?
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2014-12-16 at 09:15 PM.
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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    I think he's talking about the Star Destroyer turrets, which are aimed by hand like WW1 flak guns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek - no flame wars please

    The Empire has a bit of a thing about letting droids control weapons after the whole Clone Wars bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Decades to trek across not even a quarter of the galaxy isn't quadrant scale. Even long periods of time like a year shouldn't render the Gamma and Delta inaccessible anymore then it rendered China inaccessible to Europe in the 15th century.
    They aren't inaccessible, but space is really big. It's logical to explore that area of space after exploring more immediate areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Its still a massive strategic advantage to be able to pick your battles and retreat beyond practical reprisal range. It locks the Federation into an almost completely defensive war. Even for considerable 1:1 superiority for the Federation being forced to spread its forces defending everywhere allows the Empire to potentially divide and conquer. Unless the Federation simply cedes all but its strongly defended points. And any offensives the Federation can launch can be absorbed like Russia waiting for winter.
    As of the 2009 movie, the Federation has access to red matter, which they could use as an additional fortification tool.

    Furthermore--and this is relatively important--at a certain point such a war simply starts to cost too much. At which point you don't continue it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    How well you can get to the enemy though is the most important, its going to define everything even if other things make up for it.
    How's transwarp beaming for you? Should work just fine on large warheads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Given that Federation transporters are rendered inoperable by a few feet of dirt or proximity to a planetary magnetic pole among many other things, to include shields, I see no reason to believe they'd be able to do anything like simply beam aboard with impunity, to say nothing of actually beaming out the reactor. If they could do that, they'd be beaming out other peoples' warp cores every chance they got.
    They've beamed weapons on Borg ships before, and it's safe to say that shields are probably designed specifically to block transporters. As far as dirt... again, power of plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Given that they're banned by treaty from possessing cloaking devices (as a result of a war they won, for some reason), I'm going to go ahead and say none, USS Defiant excepted (as an explicit exception to the treaty).
    After the Reman coup and the destruction of Romulus, you can bet the Federation is in a better position to break that treaty strictly for the purposes of fighting the extragalactic intruders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Work heating is a thing. The asteroids that make big flashes on impact with each other clearly are breaking up; you can see large pieces moving away afterward. This is exactly what one would expect. Besides, what kind of process would result in an asteroid field made of tannerite?
    Probably the same sort of process that results in an asteroid with a survivable pressure. Or 1 gee of gravity without being a damn planet. Or Asteroids that suddenly change directions without actually colliding The scene was conceived without regard for physics, and was filmed via special effects with little regard for physics.


    The Death Star was heavily jamming the fighters' sensors and presumably also their missile guidance. Given that the torpedoes demonstrated the ability to make a 72,000G turn by turning 90 degrees into the exhaust port in less than the port's length, I think it's fair to say that in optimal conditions they can be quite precise; there's no reason to have that maneuvering capability if they lack the homing to use it.
    One: the entire visible spectrum was completely unjammed. Two: that shot was explicitly not using the computers, but was using space wizard magic. I mean made using the force. And yes the Force is pretty amazing. Seriously its more powerful than the Death Star. Three: 1km/sec would be 16 exhaust ports/frame. (1000m/s*1s/30frames*1exhaust port/2m = 16ish exhaust ports/frame.) We can see they aren't going near that speed, the biggest give away is that they appear for more than one frame when heading into the exhaust port.

    The Empire has a bit of a thing about letting droids control weapons after the whole Clone Wars bit.
    Yeah exactly my point. They seem to be unable to pull off things we manage without making it a full-fledged AI.

    @Citrakayah: Yeah it really depends on what Era of Star Trek we use. And it also depends on how many rules the Federation breaks when fighting this war. (Spoiler Alert: As of DS9 they are complete bastards when need be.) In particular as far as I've seen from the movies Star Wars has no answer to Time Travel. Getting across the galaxy in an hour is pretty cool. Getting across the galaxy before you left and having 70 years to breed shuttles, upgrade your tech, and generally be an jerk-face is better.

    Nu-Trek they have Transwarp beaming AND Red Matter. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that combo. TOS they still have time travel and at least one captain who will use it when needed. DS9 era they have section 31 who will do whatever is needed to ensure the Federations survival. Post show era they fight temporal wars.
    Last edited by Lamech; 2014-12-16 at 10:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Given that Federation transporters are rendered inoperable by a few feet of dirt or proximity to a planetary magnetic pole among many other things, to include shields, I see no reason to believe they'd be able to do anything like simply beam aboard with impunity, to say nothing of actually beaming out the reactor. If they could do that, they'd be beaming out other peoples' warp cores every chance they got.


    Given that they're banned by treaty from possessing cloaking devices (as a result of a war they won, for some reason), I'm going to go ahead and say none, USS Defiant excepted (as an explicit exception to the treaty).

    The big bulb on the bottom of the ship contains the reactor. While that includes armor and shielding, it is in fact enormous.
    Of course they cannot beam people and warp cores out, in a setting where everyone has transporters and part of shield tech is blocking them. Also in a setting where shields have to constantly fluctuate somewhat to keep your enemy from firing a weapon at the shield's frequency to bypass them because their sensors are that good. And to keep them from locking onto your ship with a transporter and beaming through them. It is in universe they cannot do those things. SW shields have never shown such flexibility.

    You would be wrong about saying none. I did not say cloak the ship entirely, even from sight. I said sensors. Check the Voyager episode about the transwarp coil. They managed to keep from being detected. They do that all the time. Call it jamming, whatever, but they routinely get in an out against people with far better sensors than the Empire has. Now also, they get fooled by people doing the same thing, but again those people are using stuff above the Empire.

    As for the reactor being that huge. Why then have an ejection system in case of critical reactor? If is it that big they still would not survive an explosion. As for being able to scan the Empire ships, they could detect a Borg ship at 31 hours travel time at warp 7 out. Detailed scanning of ships outside their firing range should easily be possible.
    Last edited by grolim; 2014-12-17 at 12:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    Nu-Trek they have Transwarp beaming AND Red Matter. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that combo. TOS they still have time travel and at least one captain who will use it when needed. DS9 era they have section 31 who will do whatever is needed to ensure the Federations survival. Post show era they fight temporal wars.
    Also, both of those Nu-Trek things were imported from Old Trek (which also had reverse-engineered Borg tech, unless you don't take the prequel comics as accurate, in which case it's just a mining vessel), and part of the whole thing with the Temporal Wars was that they were fought against other enemies with time travel who were trying to wipe each other out of existence.

    It's quite possible that the whole matter of the attacking Empire wouldn't even be noticed by the Federation, because the Federation in the 31st century (by which time they have commonplace time travel, extensive genetic engineering, intergalactic travel, several kilometer long ships that are meant to house entire generations, and TARDISes) would time travel in, wipe out the Empire, and time travel out. Seeing as they don't need to bother with a proxy war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citrakayah View Post
    It's quite possible that the whole matter of the attacking Empire wouldn't even be noticed by the Federation, because the Federation in the 31st century (by which time they have commonplace time travel, extensive genetic engineering, intergalactic travel, several kilometer long ships that are meant to house entire generations, and TARDISes) would time travel in, wipe out the Empire, and time travel out. Seeing as they don't need to bother with a proxy war.
    Temporal Prime Directive. Starfleet isn't supposed to interfere with its own past except in an attempt to counter other temporal incursions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Temporal Prime Directive. Starfleet isn't supposed to interfere with its own past except in an attempt to counter other temporal incursions.
    On the one hand, given that we know there's a 31st century Starfleet, it's probably fair to say that the Empire suddenly appearing in the past would count as a temporal incursion. On the other hand, saying "we'll just get our vastly more powerful future selves to take care of things" is kind of a cop-out. Given that "present" Star Trek doesn't have use of time travel beyond "the plot made us fall through to the 80s again", I feel like we should avoid involving it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    On the one hand, given that we know there's a 31st century Starfleet, it's probably fair to say that the Empire suddenly appearing in the past would count as a temporal incursion. On the other hand, saying "we'll just get our vastly more powerful future selves to take care of things" is kind of a cop-out. Given that "present" Star Trek doesn't have use of time travel beyond "the plot made us fall through to the 80s again", I feel like we should avoid involving it.
    I thought there were several means of time travel that the Federation had at its disposal, they just don't make use of it.
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    In the Gary Seven episode - Kirk has actually gone back on purpose, rather than accidentally - sent to observe an exceptionally critical period of history.

    That's probably the closest thing to "casual time travel" rather than accidental, or in time of desperation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I thought there were several means of time travel that the Federation had at its disposal, they just don't make use of it.
    There's probably some sort of secret skunkworksesque thinktank working on them.

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    Though if we're accepting NuTrek in the first place, that means the concept of alternate realities/timelines is implicit. So we can presume that the intersection of the Empire and the Federation, however it is handwaved as, creates such a alternate timeline. That established, we can then proceed with the scenario as it's being discussed without any appearance of Future Starfleet, on the grounds of maintaining a stable time loop; if Star Trek wins, they never needed to intervene temporally, and if SW wins, Future Starfleet would never exist to intervene in the first place. So from the 'present' viewpoint, both outcomes remain possible.
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    We don't even need the new movies for that. The Mirror Universe is canon as far back as TOS, and it was heavily meddled with by prime timeline characters in TOS, DS9 and (sort of, the Constitution-Class Defiant isn't exactly a character) Enterprise. For that matter, there was a TNG episode where a time-traveller from the past posed as a time traveller from the future to get access to present tech and make a fortune in his own time. The whole "temporal prime directive" thing seems extremely limited intervention-wise, unless you count Star Trek Online as canon.

    That said, if we accept technological stagnation as the rule for Star Wars (there's a few pretty solid arguments against it), then time travel is useless to the VS discussion outside of timeships from the far future swooping in, which has some pretty solid canon evidence for being unlikely. If Clone Wars technology is roughly the same as present day, then a Federation ship would be every bit as outmatched (or not) against Clone Wars ships as it would against Imperial ones, so there's no reason for time travel to matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    On the one hand, given that we know there's a 31st century Starfleet, it's probably fair to say that the Empire suddenly appearing in the past would count as a temporal incursion. On the other hand, saying "we'll just get our vastly more powerful future selves to take care of things" is kind of a cop-out. Given that "present" Star Trek doesn't have use of time travel beyond "the plot made us fall through to the 80s again", I feel like we should avoid involving it.
    Eh, not really. I'm looking at it not as a "contest" of some sort, but how it would go down if the Empire actually tried to invade the Alpha Quadrant. And if that put the future of the Federation at actual risk, the 31st century would intervene. No cop-out necessary.

    Also, Enterprise would like a word.
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    Problem is - there's been "invade the Alpha Quadrant" stories in which the future didn't intervene (The Dominion War springs to mind, and in the Trek EU, the last Borg War (ends with the Destiny trilogy)

    I would guess that their threshold for intervention must be very high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Problem is - there's been "invade the Alpha Quadrant" stories in which the future didn't intervene (The Dominion War springs to mind, and in the Trek EU, the last Borg War (ends with the Destiny trilogy)

    I would guess that their threshold for intervention must be very high.
    In both of those cases, the Federation ultimately survived.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I would guess that their threshold for intervention must be very high.
    They won those. Why intervene if you're going to win anyway?

    @RP, 8 million megatons is 8 teratons. The Chicxulub asteroid did knock things into space and it was strong enough to destroy life 12,429 miles away from it's point of impact. The orbiting fleet doesn't have to worry about that, it just fires closer to the target(s).

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    If the Federation needs another party (like the future Federation) to intervene, then it's conceding the match for the purposes of this discussion. For the future federation to be relevant, it needs to be a Empire vs Future Federation discussion from the get go, but that's not the version of the Federation specified in the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    If the Federation needs another party (like the future Federation) to intervene, then it's conceding the match for the purposes of this discussion. For the future federation to be relevant, it needs to be a Empire vs Future Federation discussion from the get go, but that's not the version of the Federation specified in the OP.
    Only if you insist on a making the whole thing basically Battledome.
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