Is Lolth Smarter Then She Seems?

[asnys]

Consider the drow. Their society, at first glance, makes no sense. They're constantly assassinating each other, plotting against each other, scheming, undermining, all against each other. They spend more time, energy, and blood fighting each other then they do fighting the Hated Surfacers. It's only through authorial fiat they haven't gone extinct. What gives?

Well, how about this: in 3E, as a general thing, few high-level characters beat many low-level characters hands-down. This is obviously true with casters, but it's mostly true even with mundanes: a single 20th-level skillmonkey is much more useful, in most circumstances, then 200 rogue-1's.

Now consider drow society in that light. They're constantly fighting each other. Relatively few, one would presume, survive to see middle age... But the ones who do will have picked up the experience of killing off the ones who don't.

Drow society is a ruthless machine for turning 200 rogue-1's into one rogue-20. It's true that 200 rogue-1's don't actually give you enough XP to reach 20th level, but we can assume most conflicts, even among the drow, are not resolved through murder, and merely "defeating" an enemy still gives you XP for him. By creating a society riven with internecine conflict, Lolth has built a factory for epic-level characters.

Her one mistake was picking an LA +2 race. Presumably this is why the Drow have not yet conquered the world.

Thoughts? Of course, the real explanation is that the drow are Designated Villains and that's that, but I thought it was an amusing idea.

[atemu1234]

This is kind of funny, actually. Maybe that's why Corellon cursed drow, turning them from LA 0 surface elves to LA +2 weaklings? Which means Lolth made LA buyoff, of course .

[Seclora]

That actually makes a lot of sense.

[Inevitability]

GITP: Combining underpowered options supposed to be strong, overpowered options supposed to be balanced, gods, and OOC-knowledge into something that makes sense.

[sonofzeal]

That... is actually pretty brilliant. Headcannon accepted.

[The Viscount]

This makes a lot of sense. I like it. It even finally provides an explanation for why Lolth administers so many tests to the drow for which failure means you turn into a monster. Drider, Chwidencha, Shunned (and whatever else I'm forgetting) are all monsters of solid CRs, making them great fodder for rising characters. It all fits so well.

[Venger]

this is beautiful. it really fits with the portrayal of lolth whenever we see her mentioned in pro-corellon larethian propaganda, like leraje's tale, as being intelligent and cunning.

[Yael]

GITP: Combining underpowered options supposed to be strong, overpowered options supposed to be balanced, gods, and OOC-knowledge into something that makes sense.

May I sig this?

[Psyren]

How is this "headcanon?" Survival of the fittest is the whole driving force behind every evil society. It's not just Lolth - Grummsh and Yeenoghu are doing the same thing.

About the only ones you can say aren't chronic backstabbers are kobolds, but using Tucker tactics they can take down much higher-CR threats and gain group XP that way.

[Fitz10019]

Spiders have LOTS of babies, so ruthlessness fits well for spiders/Lloth.

How do you reconcile such a cutthroat society being attributed to such a traditionall low-birthrate race (Elves overall, I mean)? Do Drow break the one-child-a-century norm of Elves? Are there Drow eggsacks and broodrooms?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I always get this pseudo-fascist feel where a matron gains her status in part by having lots of relevant children.

[Faily]

I do believe it's been mentioned in different sources that the Drow are much more productive than their surface-cousins when it comes to offsprings. I recall at least the Ecology of the Drow in Dragon Magazine mentioning such, and that rivalry and fighting between siblings were encouraged by the mothers.

One line I really remember from that ecology-article was how Drow often concieved twins or triplets, but even in the womb they were fighting and that the mother could feel when one child killed the other one in the womb and it was supposedly an "exquisite feeling" for the Drow mother to feel one child grow stronger from their victory.
It also works well with a minor character in one of the Forgotten Realms novels that had a twin sister, and it was noted that they carried on their dispute from the womb.

Still, really like the OP's thoughts and it certainly agrees with how I have often viewed the Drow and Lolth myself.

[Necroticplague]

How is this "headcanon?" Survival of the fittest is the whole driving force behind every evil society. It's not just Lolth - Grummsh and Yeenoghu are doing the same thing.

Don't forget Demons and Devils have a pretty similar thing going on, with an entire society built on everyone kicking downward to try and get up,with the main difference being the methods they use. Say what you will of Evil, at least its a very consistent meritocracy.

[nerghull]

I like this, it's fun and clever, probably will use it in my campaigns. Like every time.
Well, except for Dawnforge, obviously.

Thanks !

[Snowbluff]

There's a typo in your title.

As you can see, I am.

May I sig this?

No, your signature would be too long.

[jedipotter]

Consider the drow. Their society, at first glance, makes no sense. They're constantly assassinating each other, plotting against each other, scheming, undermining, all against each other. They spend more time, energy, and blood fighting each other then they do fighting the Hated Surfacers. It's only through authorial fiat they haven't gone extinct. What gives?

It makes plenty of sense.

1. Even drow society has people. The masses that are commoners and experts and such. They raise farm animals, make clothing, and do all sorts of mundane tasks.

2. Not every drow is a born plotter, schemer or assassin. This is the type of thing that needs to be taught, and a lot of it can't be taught as it's the kind of thing you need to learn from first hand experience. So sure all the drow want to be ''cool and evil'', but they all don't know how to do it.

3. The web of intrigue keeps things moving. A drow has to be careful how they act. There are 1,000 drow more powerful then your average drow. So, out right killing is often off the table as you might offend someone. So you need to go for the plot to hurt them, but not kill them. Plus if you leave them alive, they are someone you can use in the future.

[Psyren]

1. Even drow society has people. The masses that are commoners and experts and such. They raise farm animals, make clothing, and do all sorts of mundane tasks.

Don't slaves do the majority of this stuff?

[Sith_Happens]

GITP: Combining underpowered options supposed to be strong, overpowered options supposed to be balanced, gods, and OOC-knowledge into something that makes sense.

[Saved for future sigging]

[Rubik]

It makes plenty of sense.

1. Even drow society has people. The masses that are commoners and experts and such. They raise farm animals, make clothing, and do all sorts of mundane tasks.

Doubtful. See: friendship slaves and magic.

2. Not every drow is a born plotter, schemer or assassin. This is the type of thing that needs to be taught, and a lot of it can't be taught as it's the kind of thing you need to learn from first hand experience. So sure all the drow want to be ''cool and evil'', but they all don't know how to do it.

Considering they are, canonically, literally evil even in the womb, this is a "no."

3. The web of intrigue keeps things moving. A drow has to be careful how they act. There are 1,000 drow more powerful then your average drow. So, out right killing is often off the table as you might offend someone. So you need to go for the plot to hurt them, but not kill them. Plus if you leave them alive, they are someone you can use in the future.

And it's also someone alive, who can then use and kill you.

[Coidzor]

Definitely. Her stated Int scores are much higher than her apparent behavior would indicate of her intellect.

Thoughts? Of course, the real explanation is that the drow are Designated Villains and that's that, but I thought it was an amusing idea.

That's probably the intent, but the execution is where she falls short, partially because she's never really gotten over the whole jilted lover thing to properly focus on revenge.

Don't slaves do the majority of this stuff?

There is a body of Drow Commoners who are supposed to be a bit more insulated from the schemes of the nobles, except when they're being used as tools or sacrificed as cannon fodder instead of slaves as a ruse. And when Drow Nobles decide to make like that tradition of Spartans murdering a Helot without getting caught as part of a rite of passage.

Just what they're actually doing down there in their dank pits, I can never recall.

[ngilop]

im confused about what all the fuss is about. Congrats OP for figuring out what lloth has been about since ya know drow first came into D&D, its been said in different way many times exactly what you figured out, she only wants the strongest and brightest so they have a better chance of success than not..


what blows my mind is all these GiTPers who sem to think this is some kind of brand new idea that hasn't been around since 1974. like my own brain says ...really.....really?!?

[Hiro Protagonest]

im confused about what all the fuss is about. Congrats OP for figuring out what lloth has been about since ya know drow first came into D&D, its been said in different way many times exactly what you figured out, she only wants the strongest and brightest so they have a better chance of success than not..


what blows my mind is all these GiTPers who sem to think this is some kind of brand new idea that hasn't been around since 1974. like my own brain says ...really.....really?!?

Except this is figuring out that having only the strongest and brightest makes sense. In the real world, having only the strongest and brightest doesn't mean much when your enemy also has the strongest and brightest, and a whole army of somewhat competents.

[Faily]

Well, Drow back in the beginning were... dark-skinned evil elves who worshipped spiders. And were seemingly matriarchial because... evil?

And that was it.

It wasn't until later that their origins, and the rest of the Drow pantheon (like Vhaerun, Kiriansalee, Ghanadaur, and Eilistraee), the establishement of Menzoberranzan and the workings of the noble houses, etc., were actually fleshed out. IIRC, R.A Salvatore is one of those who contributed greatly to establishing the Drow of Faerun we know today.

@ngilop I do think you're also being a bit hyperbolic with "all these GiTPs", as it hasn't been that many posts with people going "OMG you're right! MIND = BLOWN!", rather than there have been some who have pointed out that they either agree with his view/find it sensible. Not everyone has dwelved into all D&D lore either. I will even admit I didn't read D&D back in 1974, on the reason of not even being concieved yet at that point, and have only enjoyed D&D and tabletop gaming in my past 10 years. (I also happen to live with someone who owns a good collection of old D&D books + many years of Dragon magazines).


EDIT: Drow also first appeared in AD&D in 1977, being mentioned as a "legend" under the entry for Elf in the Monster Manual. They didn't actually appear truly until 1978 in a series of modules. (For bonus, they were first made playable in 1985's Unearthed Arcana.

(huh, that was an interesting Google search)

[animewatcha]

There any way that this kind of thinking can be applied to forgotten realms with the twin sisters of Selune ( this the right neutral good goddess? ) and Shar? Both being in fact the same person, but plays both sides for double the portfolios, followers, etc. ?

[Graypairofsocks]

Considering they are, canonically, literally evil even in the womb, this is a "no."

I am pretty sure it says in one of the core books that non-outsiders that have "Always Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Evil" as their alignment aren't actually always evil, they are just evil ~90% of the time.

[Zaq]

Spiders have LOTS of babies, so ruthlessness fits well for spiders/Lloth.

How do you reconcile such a cutthroat society being attributed to such a traditionall low-birthrate race (Elves overall, I mean)? Do Drow break the one-child-a-century norm of Elves? Are there Drow eggsacks and broodrooms?

I've played under a GM who fixes the "where do all the drow come from?" problem by declaring that every spider killed in the Underdark rises as a drow in 1d6 days. And yes, drow count as spiders for the purposes of this rule. The exception are spiders who are eaten, which is a nod to the mind-blowingly stupid proclamation in the 2e Drow of the Underdark book that "drow sometimes resort to cannibalism to keep their numbers down." (Yes, that's really in there.)

[animewatcha]

And for a group to take over the Underdark and invent such games as 'Whack-a-drow'. Afterall, they are a renewable resource of income.

[Steward]

I think that's definitely a logical reason.

It's also common even in real life for dictatorial regimes to encourage factions and infighting among the political elite. If people are too busy backstabbing and betraying each other they don't have the time or the energy to go after the person who is in top. Without getting too far into the weeds here, there was an infamous German leader (let's about 70-80 years ago?) who treated his own officials the way Lolth treats her drow matriarchs.

Don't forget Demons and Devils have a pretty similar thing going on, with an entire society built on everyone kicking downward to try and get up,with the main difference being the methods they use. Say what you will of Evil, at least its a very consistent meritocracy.

Yep! In Fiendish Codex 2, it's pretty heavily implied that Asmodeus likes it when the other archdevils fight each other. Anything that weakens one inevitably strengthens him, and anything that strengthens a devil automatically bolsters Hell's power.

[Psyren]

im confused about what all the fuss is about. Congrats OP for figuring out what lloth has been about since ya know drow first came into D&D, its been said in different way many times exactly what you figured out, she only wants the strongest and brightest so they have a better chance of success than not..


what blows my mind is all these GiTPers who sem to think this is some kind of brand new idea that hasn't been around since 1974. like my own brain says ...really.....really?!?

This x1000.

Except this is figuring out that having only the strongest and brightest makes sense. In the real world, having only the strongest and brightest doesn't mean much when your enemy also has the strongest and brightest, and a whole army of somewhat competents.

Again, not exactly earth-shattering revelations going on.

[StreamOfTheSky]

im confused about what all the fuss is about. Congrats OP for figuring out what lloth has been about since ya know drow first came into D&D, its been said in different way many times exactly what you figured out, she only wants the strongest and brightest so they have a better chance of success than not..


what blows my mind is all these GiTPers who sem to think this is some kind of brand new idea that hasn't been around since 1974. like my own brain says ...really.....really?!?

Yeah, Drow have always seemed to be presented as "Social Darwinists" that take survival of the fittest and push it to the limit. I certainly remember the Underdark portion of Baldur's Gate having multiple drow mention the importance of the strongest surviving and all that.

It's interesting, but not really a new revelation. And Lloth's still pretty dumb. Having a society constantly on the brink of extinction is pretty stupid, clearly they don't have to worry about ever being besieged by a large well trained army right when their population is reaching one of those hilarious "whoops, we should stop this" nadirs, that'd be pretty embarrassing. Plus while the game does feature exponential power growth, it also has a TON of single target save or lose (sometimes without that annoying "save" part), and various ways to mind control or mimic a single powerful foe to turn their strength to your side, so reaching so deep into the small ragtag group of unified superhumans approach is just asking to be cut by the double edge.
EDIT: Also, just think of all the offspring the drow murdered at a young age as part of schemes don't end up having. A society run normally will still end up with a decent amount of high level people just from sheer exponential population growth.