3.5 Sorcerer, 4th level spell selection.

[Metahuman1]

So, long story short, I'm in a game with an under optimized party that are getting more steadily toward being properly optimized. I'm running a sorcerer/mage of the arcane order, mostly as support as everyone else in the party is a damage dealer, and I'm into Item Crafting. I've also got the Necropolitant template, and an affiliation special ability that gives me Cha mod to HP.


So, we've just hit 8th level, and I'm looking for a good first 4th level spell. This is complicated by the fact that the party fights a lot of golems for plot reasons.


Anyway, my spell list is

0 lvl spells. Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Stick.

1st: Grease, Benign Transposition, Ray of Enfeeblement, Know Protections, Nybor's Gentle Reminder, Bonus: Lesser Orb of Sound (Plot stuff as to how I got that but I don't use it much so it's not that important. Only listed for completeness.)

2nd: Wings of Cover, Mirror's Image, Scale Weakening (Which I'll be getting off the list before long and replacing with something else. Anyone wants to suggest something that will work on Constructs that'd be great. More so if it's save or suck/loose/die and not just damage.)

3rd: Distilled Joy (Also soon to be replaced. Again, open to suggestions if people wanna throw them my way.), Dispel Magic.



Party is a Ranger/figher/barbarian (Not sure of his level split or what he's doing for the next level.) that does TWF with scimitars and high str.

Rouge/Swordsage cat Heginyoki.

A swift hunter with a dip into cleric for travel devotion. Favors Archery.

A straight classed archer ranger. (At least she has Hanks Energy Bow thanks to me and I'm gonna make her some more custom Items soon to buff her up.)

A Homebrew LA 0 version of the Gargoyle who's a 5th level wizard Conjuration specialist / 1st level Warblade focused on Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw with a small dip into Stone Dragon for Mountain Hammer / 2nd level swift blade (DM waved the conjuration slot counting for the requirement of spending a level where all 3rd level slots must be haste.).


Between the Wizard and my Mage of the Arcane Order Spell Pool, we should be able to get most strictly utility spells, so I'm more into stuff that's awesome to be dropped several times a day.


I have considered several classic options (Solid Fog, Black Tenticals, Bestow Curse.) But the fact that it's a construct heavy campaign makes me leery of them. The only spell I've given though too that doesn't have that problem is Polymorph, but the problem there is it can rapidly devalue most of the rest of the party when one spell is far and away better then there entire builds.




So, bearing all that in mind, what does the playground suggest for a good 4th level spell for me to consider?

[Asrrin]

For your 2nd level spell swap, Alter Self is always a good all around utility, and if you are facing Golems and other contructs, Shatter is a decent spell with also out of combat utility.

Haste is a good 3rd level spell for a support character, you can really make your melee shine with that.

4th level is where a lot of the sorcerer's goodies are. Here is a list of my favorites:

Wings of flurry (uncapped AoE force damage)
Celerity (immediate actions are always good)
Dimension Door (get our of jail free card right here)
Polymorph (especially if you don't pick up Alter Self)
Enervation (not sure if constructs are immune to energy drain)
Ruin Delver's Fortune (another good get our of jail free card)
Orb of (Fire/Acid/Cold/Force) (less useful for you as you said you are focused more on support instead of damage)

[eggynack]

What's wrong with solid fog or black tentacles in a construct heavy campaign? They seem fine to me.

[Metahuman1]

Aren't they and basically every other core spell that isn't a buff or utility spell "SR: Yes." and thus vulnerable to construct magic immunity?

[eggynack]

Aren't they and basically every other core spell that isn't a buff or utility spell "SR: Yes." and thus vulnerable to construct magic immunity?

Nope. Completely SR: no. Conjuration is fun sometimes.

[Metahuman1]

Huh, interesting.

So, I'm thinking Black Tenticals, Polymorph, Ruin Delvers Fortune and Dimension Door, the last one to be replaced with Celerity (Celerity is in the spell compendium, right?), does that sound like it should be effective for a Sorcerer that wants to be good but wants to let the gish and the none casters have there fun wracking up damage?

[eggynack]

Seems reasonable enough, though I don't know offhand what the grapple mods of constructs look like, and they could be high.

[Jack_Simth]

2nd: Wings of Cover, Mirror's Image, Scale Weakening (Which I'll be getting off the list before long and replacing with something else. Anyone wants to suggest something that will work on Constructs that'd be great. More so if it's save or suck/loose/die and not just damage.)

Glitterdust. AoE Will or Blind for a short while (usually the rest of the vic's life, but officially 1 round/level), SR: No.

You've gotten a lot of decent suggestions for your 3rd and 4th, so I'm skipping those for now.

[Randomguy]

Isn't Ray of Deanimation a 4th level spell? You'd probably be better off with Evard's Black Tentacles though.

[Ifni]

Seems reasonable enough, though I don't know offhand what the grapple mods of constructs look like, and they could be high.

They're usually not too high, as construct BAB is poor if I remember correctly. Of course, if they're Huge or bigger your Evard's probably will not cut it, but at least it'll slow them down.

Seconding Glitterdust at L2, it's SR:no and golems do not usually have good Will saves. Also good for anti-invisibility utility. Grease is another handy low-level trick against golems. Both work well with Sculpt Spell if you happen to pick that up.

I think Celerity is in PHB2, not the Spell Compendium.

My sorcerers got good use out of Assay Spell Resistance at L4 (you do not want to take it as one of your first couple of spells, though), but if your primary opponents have spell immunity, that one's probably not for you.

[Metahuman1]

The DM is using different "Models" of construct with a variety of different intended niches. I think only one is particularly good at grappling.

Edit: What book is ray of deanimation in?

[Randomguy]

The DM is using different "Models" of construct with a variety of different intended niches. I think only one is particularly good at grappling.

Edit: What book is ray of deanimation in?

Spell Compedium. Looking back at it, it's not actually that great. Just 1d6 damage per level on a construct, no save, no SR. It seems like an Orb spell would be better if you wanted to deal direct damage. Although Ray of Deanimation can be metamagicked with split ray, and it doesn't deal a damage type, but it's still a less useful spell in general since it only works on constructs. Maybe in your case it's worth considering.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Bog standard constructs are pretty good at grappling mostly due to their size and strength.

Advanced constructs are even better at grappling, without any particular specialization in it, because you get 4 HD for every 1 CR. The worst grappling golem in MM1 is the lowly CR 7 Flesh Golem with a +15. At CL 8, Black Tentacles has a grapple mod of +16, so a little better than a coin flip. Advance Frankenstein's Monster twelve HD, and that CR 10 creature has a +21 grapple check instead. And that's the worst grappler in MM1; the rest have higher strength/bigger size/more HD. BT is better when you're facing humanoids and casters, who tend to be small/medium with low strength.

I'd take Solid Fog first, but honestly Sculpted Glitterdust will ruin most constructs.

[Rebel7284]

Solid fog is pretty great in it's ability to slow down virtually anything without those annoying grapple checks.

Greater Mirror Image is a lot of fun, but you can probably just keep using normal mirror image for now.

[Metahuman1]

My only concern with taking Solid Fog now is that I can't shape it, so I'm concerned it will mess up my melee companions more then help them till I can.


Also, two questions: 1: Does Scent allow a character to find there target with out a miss chance and thus attack with out a miss chance or penalty within 30ft or so?

2: Can Constructs be Cue De Grad if there in a solid fog and someone outside it can hit them with out being inside the solid fog themselves?

[Jack_Simth]

Also, two questions: 1: Does Scent allow a character to find there target with out a miss chance and thus attack with out a miss chance or penalty within 30ft or so?

No. Scent gives a creature knowledge that there's something nearby. When it's adjacent, it tells them which square. If the critter with scent can't otherwise see the attacker, 50% miss chance like normal.

2: Can Constructs be Cue De Grad if there in a solid fog and someone outside it can hit them with out being inside the solid fog themselves?

A couple of things:
1) Constructs are not subject to critical hits, and so can't be killed via a Coup de Grace
2) Delivering a Coup de Grace requires the victim be Helpless, not just unaware, so no.

[Metahuman1]

Drat. Hmmm, yeah, Black Tenticals might be better on simple grounds of actually taking them out of the fight and not simply slowing down participation on other combatants. Unless there's ways I'm missing that the part can exploit the fog to destroy them with out having to either get in the fog or stand right out side it and still suffer a number of disadvantages, most of which don't make up for being back inside the darn things kill zone.

Yeah, I'm finding them annoying. It'll be easier once I've got a 4th level spell that can shut them down hard and fast the majority of the time, and can then branch out into just snagging cool stuff in general.

[Keld Denar]

You don't use Solid Fog for disabling. You use it for dividing and conquering. You generally wouldn't use it against a single construct. You'd use it against 2 of them. You cover one of them completely, allowing your minions party to attack the other one without getting surrounded or taking extra attacks. The only time you really want to use it against a single foe is when that foe is so large that they can be partly in the cloud and partly out so they are affected by the -2 penalty to attacks, and even that might not be the best use of your action.

[Talya]

Ruin Delver's Fortune (another good get our of jail free card)
Orb of (Fire/Acid/Cold/Force) (less useful for you as you said you are focused more on support instead of damage)

Seconding those two.

Adding: Assay Spell Resistance.

[Metahuman1]

Hmmm, don't suppose Assy Spell Resistance would shut down the Golems Magic Immunity for abit, would it?

[eggynack]

Hmmm, don't suppose Assy Spell Resistance would shut down the Golems Magic Immunity for abit, would it?

No. Magic immunity is basically SR: infinity, and infinity minus 10 is still infinity.

[Metahuman1]

Crud. Cause, gotta say, that Magic Immunity is annoying as crap.

[eggynack]

Crud. Cause, gotta say, that Magic Immunity is annoying as crap.

I guess. You can get a pretty wide variety of spells that don't touch SR though. Magic immunity is a hassle, certainly, but if you have a reasonable list for it, it's not going to stop you anywhere near entirely. You could even pick up an orb if you're really worried. You don't need to, but it's going to be at least reasonable.

[Metahuman1]

Well, there' the thing. In a different game, my answer for first 4th level spell would have been Polymorph and turn into the nastiest thing I could find in the monster manual that was inside HD caps for the character and just wreck. (I'm a sorcerer with Necropolitan Template, and I have an affiliation that let's members get Cha Mod to HP, so I've got a crap ton of HP. Shift me into a form with the strength and natural attacks to wreck and I would wreck before other buffs like Mirror's Image even came into consideration.).


But.


I have a party where every other character save one is a straight stealth skills monkey and damage dealer. The one who isn't dabbles a bit into knowledge's and utility spell casting, but mostly, spells are things for her to buff up with so she can be a better melee damage dealer.

I feel like invalidating there builds with 1 spell would be bad gamer etiquette because well, no one likes it when the caster takes over being the melee heavy damage dealer and tank for everyone just by holding a lesser rod of extend spell and casting 1 spell that he can do 4 times a day.



So I'm trying REALLY hard to stay away form that sorta spell and find spells that are either utility or are gonna make there lives easier in combat. Buffs, and Save or Suck/Loose/Die spells.


I dunno, maybe Grease and Glitter Dust are enough to screw up a construct and I should just stick to other spells for now for other things, and I can just pick up spells like Disintegrate later?

[Zirconia]

You don't use Solid Fog for disabling. You use it for dividing and conquering. You generally wouldn't use it against a single construct. You'd use it against 2 of them. You cover one of them completely, allowing your minions party to attack the other one without getting surrounded or taking extra attacks.

Same kind of thing with Black Tentacles, it is not necessarily a bad thing if 50% of the constructs get stuck and 50% keep going, that lets your melee folks concentrate attacks much more effectively on the few that are clear of the tentacles, delivering up fresh foes every couple of rounds as they take the bad guys down. Careful AoE targeting largely solves the problem of "how do my melee buddies get to participate". If it is just one construct, then Grease and Glitterdust start looking pretty good even unsculpted.

I know what you mean, OP, about struggling a bit to find good crowd control for constructs though. In the campaign I'm in about 90% of our foes are either undead or constructs, which nicely avoids moral quandries but makes life a bit tougher for my wizard/rogue gestalt. I've gotten less than a dozen sneak attacks off in the entire campaign up to 6th level so far. . . ;)