LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double

[unbeliever536]

Spoiler: possible slur?

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So, I sometimes hang around on rationalist and rationalist-adjacent parts of the internet, and I've noticed a tendency there to use the word "transgender" as a noun, rather than an adjective. For example, a blogger might refer to a trans man (or woman, or non-binary person; I can't recall specific examples) as "a transgender", or refer to trans-ness (or maybe the trans* positivity movement? The meaning was clear from context but I'm having difficulty expressing it.) as "transgender". The people using the word in this manner are not obviously transphobic, and some clearly aren't (eg by having trans* SOs). That said, that use of "transgender" seems kind of weird and a little dehumanizing to my ear. Trans* folks in the thread: what are your thoughts? Am I right that this is kind of off or is it a perfectly acceptable use of the word?

(I am not trans)

[AmberVael]

Spoiler: possible slur?

Show

So, I sometimes hang around on rationalist and rationalist-adjacent parts of the internet, and I've noticed a tendency there to use the word "transgender" as a noun, rather than an adjective. For example, a blogger might refer to a trans man (or woman, or non-binary person; I can't recall specific examples) as "a transgender", or refer to trans-ness (or maybe the trans* positivity movement? The meaning was clear from context but I'm having difficulty expressing it.) as "transgender". The people using the word in this manner are not obviously transphobic, and some clearly aren't (eg by having trans* SOs). That said, that use of "transgender" seems kind of weird and a little dehumanizing to my ear. Trans* folks in the thread: what are your thoughts? Am I right that this is kind of off or is it a perfectly acceptable use of the word?

(I am not trans)

It is off, and yeah, my understanding is that its generally seen as unacceptable and dehumanizing. Or at least, I know it feels that way to me.

[Astrella]

Yeah, I would generally avoid using it as just a noun, same way as you wouldn't really say "a gay" or such. I myself would prefer to not be addressed that way.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: possible slur?

Show

So, I sometimes hang around on rationalist and rationalist-adjacent parts of the internet, and I've noticed a tendency there to use the word "transgender" as a noun, rather than an adjective. For example, a blogger might refer to a trans man (or woman, or non-binary person; I can't recall specific examples) as "a transgender", or refer to trans-ness (or maybe the trans* positivity movement? The meaning was clear from context but I'm having difficulty expressing it.) as "transgender". The people using the word in this manner are not obviously transphobic, and some clearly aren't (eg by having trans* SOs). That said, that use of "transgender" seems kind of weird and a little dehumanizing to my ear. Trans* folks in the thread: what are your thoughts? Am I right that this is kind of off or is it a perfectly acceptable use of the word?

(I am not trans)

The ones who are intentionally choosing to use the term incorrectly are being *****. The others are probably just following the herd, ironically enough.

It is definitely an annoying mistake to be corrected, just from the grammatical end of things.

[Kesnit]

Spoiler: possible slur?

Show

So, I sometimes hang around on rationalist and rationalist-adjacent parts of the internet, and I've noticed a tendency there to use the word "transgender" as a noun, rather than an adjective. For example, a blogger might refer to a trans man (or woman, or non-binary person; I can't recall specific examples) as "a transgender", or refer to trans-ness (or maybe the trans* positivity movement? The meaning was clear from context but I'm having difficulty expressing it.) as "transgender". The people using the word in this manner are not obviously transphobic, and some clearly aren't (eg by having trans* SOs). That said, that use of "transgender" seems kind of weird and a little dehumanizing to my ear. Trans* folks in the thread: what are your thoughts? Am I right that this is kind of off or is it a perfectly acceptable use of the word?

(I am not trans)

It's all context. From what you said, the people using it are being respectful, so let it go.

Also, from what you've said, it's still an adjective. The noun being described is left off, but context can add it.

[MorgromTheOrc]

So since I don't need support exactly since I'm already completely loving and supportive of myself, but have a question to be answered, I'm 90ish% sure this is the right thread for my post but I've never looked at this thread before tonight.

This last year I went through another episode of my forced mental/emotional development which ended in me stripping myself of all society based thoughts and opinions and I found, that I don't really care what the gender or physical state of a person is as far as my decision on whether or not I would date or love them goes. So I think I'm pansexual.

The question is on whether I'm actually pansexual or just very open emotionally because while I have been attracted to men before, it was generally only after emotional attachment or I was mainly attracted to their feminine features. So does that mean I am actually straight since I've only became sexually excited from females or feminine features when I haven't personally known the person? I began questioning myself on this when I was kissed suddenly and randomly by a male classmate of mine and it made me feel largely the same as it would have if they had been female, and I already knew that I considered one of my male friends to be the perfect potential partner except the fact he's straight.

On top of whether I'm actually pansexual I was wondering whether if I do turn out to be I should just continue dating women as I technically would be a rare person that does have a choice since either will bring me happiness, and it would be easier on me and my family?

[Ifni]

I guess you could call that... panromantic heterosexual demihomosexual*, or something along those lines (you can be romantically attracted to anyone, you're sexually attracted to women, you're only sexually attracted to men when you know them well already), but honestly, rounding off to "pansexual" seems fine to me.

*I don't know a better way to specify someone who is effectively allosexual when heterosexual attraction is considered, but demi when homosexual attraction is considered - but this version might not be right / make sense, as heterosexual normally implies you're not attracted to your own gender, as well as being attracted to the "opposite" gender. Demipansexual?

I won't address your last question as I'm aromantic and not really qualified.

[Coidzor]

The question is on whether I'm actually pansexual or just very open emotionally because while I have been attracted to men before, it was generally only after emotional attachment or I was mainly attracted to their feminine features. So does that mean I am actually straight since I've only became sexually excited from females or feminine features when I haven't personally known the person?

I can't tell you what you are, but I can tell you that being sexually attracted to women without getting emotionally invested in them first and then getting sexually attracted to men after getting emotionally invested in them isn't straight.

On top of whether I'm actually pansexual I was wondering whether if I do turn out to be I should just continue dating women as I technically would be a rare person that does have a choice since either will bring me happiness, and it would be easier on me and my family?

Date who you want to date and who you're comfortable dating.

[golentan]

How do you feel about the word Heteroflexible?

[Lissou]

Mostly heterosexual panromantic? Heteroflexible works too I guess.

Date people you meet and want to date. Don't base it on how hard or easy it would be for other people, but on how much you like the people. So, don't pass on someone you find amazing because you worry it will be weird for your family, but there isn't really a need to force yourself to date people of your gender if you're not interested in any of them you know at the time either, if I'm making sense.

I don't think it's worth making a blanket decision now. See what life presents you with and make the decision on a case per case basis.

[The_Snark]

I don't know a better way to specify someone who is effectively allosexual when heterosexual attraction is considered, but demi when homosexual attraction is considered - but this version might not be right / make sense, as heterosexual normally implies you're not attracted to your own gender, as well as being attracted to the "opposite" gender. Demipansexual?

The words androsexual and gynosexual might be useful in this context, as they lack that connotation. I don't see them used often, but the meanings are pretty clear from the roots. Panromantic, gynosexual, demiandrosexual? That seems to fit what Morgrom describes, although it's a bit of a mouthful and probably requires explanation for most people, so its usefulness as a label is questionable... Heteroflexible is certainly more succinct.

On top of whether I'm actually pansexual I was wondering whether if I do turn out to be I should just continue dating women as I technically would be a rare person that does have a choice since either will bring me happiness, and it would be easier on me and my family?

This one's really up to you. I personally don't think you should feel obliged to avoid dating men because people around you disapprove, but ultimately you ought to do what makes you happy. You care about your family, and don't want to create tension. You care about romance in general, and would care about a hypothetical person you're attracted to. Hopefully these two things won't ever come into conflict, but if they do, you'll have some weighing to do.

(... I don't like that wording, because it implies that you'll have to choose one and abandon the other, and unless things are really extreme I don't think that's the case. It's more a matter of "I care about this romantic relationship enough that I'll raise this difficult topic with my family" or "I want to avoid family strife enough that I'll forgo asking this particular person out".)

Anyway. Like Lissou says, this doesn't seem like the sort of thing you need to decide in advance. Don't worry too much about it until you have to.

[MorgromTheOrc]

The words androsexual and gynosexual might be useful in this context, as they lack that connotation. I don't see them used often, but the meanings are pretty clear from the roots. Panromantic, gynosexual, demiandrosexual? That seems to fit what Morgrom describes, although it's a bit of a mouthful and probably requires explanation for most people, so its usefulness as a label is questionable... Heteroflexible is certainly more succinct.



This one's really up to you. I personally don't think you should feel obliged to avoid dating men because people around you disapprove, but ultimately you ought to do what makes you happy. You care about your family, and don't want to create tension. You care about romance in general, and would care about a hypothetical person you're attracted to. Hopefully these two things won't ever come into conflict, but if they do, you'll have some weighing to do.

(... I don't like that wording, because it implies that you'll have to choose one and abandon the other, and unless things are really extreme I don't think that's the case. It's more a matter of "I care about this romantic relationship enough that I'll raise this difficult topic with my family" or "I want to avoid family strife enough that I'll forgo asking this particular person out".)

Anyway. Like Lissou says, this doesn't seem like the sort of thing you need to decide in advance. Don't worry too much about it until you have to.

I think I could be comfortable being heteroflexible, I've never really heard that before but it seems accurate. Up to this point I'm still a virgin do to a combination of others disinterest and my own nervousness but I have dated a couple women and know for sure I'm attracted to them.

I don't know any guys right now I would want to date that aren't straight so the opportunity isn't really there anyways. I don't think my parents would disown me if I did but they know I like women and have shown an inability to understand non singular sexual orientations like this and would likely treat me as faking or gay.

[SilentNight]

I actually have a similar question to Morgrom's. Would any of the genderqueer (in the widest sense of the word) folk out there in the Playground be willing to share their experiences with me? How they came to understand their identity, what exactly it is etc. I'm going through a period of questioning made more puzzling after a friend asked me somewhat unexpectedly if I was genderfluid. I've done ample exploration on my sexual identity, but very little on my gender identity, and genderqueer is such a wide umbrella I'm not sure where I'd look to see if I fit under it.

[golentan]

I actually have a similar question to Morgrom's. Would any of the genderqueer (in the widest sense of the word) folk out there in the Playground be willing to share their experiences with me? How they came to understand their identity, what exactly it is etc. I'm going through a period of questioning made more puzzling after a friend asked me somewhat unexpectedly if I was genderfluid. I've done ample exploration on my sexual identity, but very little on my gender identity, and genderqueer is such a wide umbrella I'm not sure where I'd look to see if I fit under it.

Sure. I usually go with cis-male by default, but I've always had this desire to (for example) breast feed my future children, and I feel way more comfortable in a skirt or a dress than in jeans and a t-shirt, but it's never been inconvenient to be seen as cis and it's usually inconvenient (socially) for me to wear my femme-y clothes, so generally I just go with the flow.

That said, since I know my lady love enjoys how I look in a blouse and skirt, well, at home I've felt more comfortable being that me, even though I'm keeping the beard (it's fuzzy). I'd love to be able to swap body parts on a whim, but I'm not gonna cry if that never comes about, because I'm more or less comfortable in my own skin, I just wish it didn't limit what roles are socially acceptable to take on in fashion, parenting, and what-have-you.

[Zrak]

Would any of the genderqueer (in the widest sense of the word) folk out there in the Playground be willing to share their experiences with me? How they came to understand their identity, what exactly it is etc. I'm going through a period of questioning made more puzzling after a friend asked me somewhat unexpectedly if I was genderfluid. I've done ample exploration on my sexual identity, but very little on my gender identity, and genderqueer is such a wide umbrella I'm not sure where I'd look to see if I fit under it.

My experience is a little unusual, so I wouldn't necessarily suggest using it as a sort of benchmark or anything, and certainly wouldn't suggest reading in it any comment on the experiences or feelings of others. I say this because it could come off as trivializing something that's important to some people but has always been, as a result of my unusual temperament rather than anything to do with the issue itself, rather trivial to me.

The shortest version is that my detachment and ennui are stronger feelings than my gender identity. A slightly longer version is that I wanted to be a girl until I could grow a beard, but then beards were pretty cool and transitioning seemed like a hassle, so I said "Whatever" and remained male.

A still longer version is that, as a kid, I felt and did a lot of the same things you hear in fairly stereotypical trans narratives, only with a lot less affect. I remember clearly and often hoping I'd been having a very long dream and would wake up as a girl, that sort of thing, but never really being particularly upset about the fact that it wasn't the case. I can't really say whether I didn't feel traditional dismorphia or just reacted to it in a very unusual way, since I have no actual experience but my own. I was relatively stoic and apathetic child, generally, and in particular I didn't really feel any strong attachment to or identification with my body. By not feeling a particularly strong identification with, I don't so much mean that I felt I might identify better with another, different body but just that I associated my idea of self entirely with thoughts and not remotely with my body. I'd rather have had a different one, perhaps, but I always thought of my body as something I had, rather than something I was. Anyway, I became a generally stoic and apathetic adolescent who in particular didn't feel a strong attachment to or identification with my body, realized I could have Lemmy chops, and figured why deal with a whole big hassle when I could just have wicked sweet Lemmy chops and not bother, and that's basically what I've done since.

I wouldn't really refer to myself as genderqueer, or otherwise consciously self-identify, unless I were asked about it specifically, though, but it's generally what other people say I am if I explain the above.

[SowZ]

I go into some sexual details in the second spoiler paragraph. If you want to get to the meat of the post and skip the descriptions of my sexuality, ignore the first spoiler part.

Spoiler

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So I've pretty much accepted that I'm demisexual or gray a or something. The specifics aren't terribly important to me as I consider it all descriptive rather than prescriptive, anyway.

A brief run down, I can feel superficial sexual attraction to someone, but it is not accompanied by a desire to do anything about it. I don't even want to see anyone naked. Generals look odd and nipples are just another part of the breast. And I wouldn't feel comfortable hooking up with anyone no matter how beautiful I considered them. That's not my thing.

Sex is not a need for me at all and the vast majority of the time I am content to be single without so much as a crush on anyone. When I am in a relationship, I gain a more active arc drive and will initiate but my sexual desire is proportionate to my emotional connection. I've never understood the thing about people being super physical early in a relationship and tapering off as things become more real.

It's been at least a year since I really had a crush on anyone, (and that wasn't very intense,) and over two since any sort of sexual contact or even a real orgasm, (it's not something I can really bring myself to, strangely, which is whatever. I mean, they're nice, but I could live without them.)

Spoiler

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So story time. There's someone at work I'm really interested in. I find her attractive, interesting, I get the whole weird empty feeling when you aren't around them that I completely forgot existed. We've been hanging out a month or so now, going to parties, heading to the mountains to see the meteor shower, always group activities. Well I told her that I was into her in one of our rare alone times and she kissed me, which I would have been fine with, except I stopped us because we were drunk.

I later told her I hope that isn't the only time we kiss, she said she agreed but that night she was feeling weird about it because of stuff that had happened with someone else the night before. I think she has some other thing sort of going on. It's not a relationship, as far as I'm aware it's mostly sex, but that doesn't bother me. I've since asked her out, and she said yes, and I'm looking forward to the date we have planned.

So, backstory out of the way, I really like this girl, and if things progress I imagine they'll eventually lead to sex. I am not there yet at all and if she wanted to tonight I certainly wouldn't go there. But eventually I'd be fine with it should things go in that direction.

However, I have little experience in that department. I don't believe in virginity and have done things that, were a lesbian to do it, would count as list virginity but not for straight men? Another reason I find the concept absurd. But that's a tangent. So, point is, I've never penetrated someone.

If we had sex, I'd hope not to be a disappointment. I'd likely start out giving her oral, and am less in need of advice there, (I'd also be more comfortable with that earlier, seeing as it would be less for my pleasure, being down there isn't appealing in and of itself, but I would enjoy making her feel good,) but as for the traditional sex, I'm at a bit of a loss. I've never even watched a video of people having sex as that doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not all too concerned with premature ejaculation. I'd accept tips in that department, but I doubt it'll be a problem. It's always taken a helluva lot of stimulation to get me off and one woman I dated was never able to get me off with hand stuff. Another could, but it took awhile. And I still usually didn't finish. In this regard I wonder if I have the orgasmic sensibilities of most woman. Either way.

No, I'm more worried about how I can prepare so that I can be decent if the situation arises in the next couples months. Are there books I should read? Any videos I should watch? I'm a pretty thorough researcher but with all the unrealistic porn/PUA crap out there I'd rather get direction from real people than google. Other issues/advice/warnings with people on the ace spectrum dating people who have more casual sex I'll also take. Also a bit worried she'll find it odd that I'm in my mid twenties and have only had two real girlfriends, one of which lasted two years, and have never been past 'third base' as it were. It's not a confidence issue or a matter of bing comfortable around women. Shoot, I didn't date it all in high school and had several chances. I just wasn't interested. Still, she may find it strange.

Thanks, people.

[Jeff the Green]

I go into some sexual details in the second spoiler paragraph. If you want to get to the meat of the post and skip the descriptions of my sexuality, ignore the first spoiler part.

Spoiler

Show

So I've pretty much accepted that I'm demisexual or gray a or something. The specifics aren't terribly important to me as I consider it all descriptive rather than prescriptive, anyway.

A brief run down, I can feel superficial sexual attraction to someone, but it is not accompanied by a desire to do anything about it. I don't even want to see anyone naked. Generals look odd and nipples are just another part of the breast. And I wouldn't feel comfortable hooking up with anyone no matter how beautiful I considered them. That's not my thing.

Sex is not a need for me at all and the vast majority of the time I am content to be single without so much as a crush on anyone. When I am in a relationship, I gain a more active arc drive and will initiate but my sexual desire is proportionate to my emotional connection. I've never understood the thing about people being super physical early in a relationship and tapering off as things become more real.

It's been at least a year since I really had a crush on anyone, (and that wasn't very intense,) and over two since any sort of sexual contact or even a real orgasm, (it's not something I can really bring myself to, strangely, which is whatever. I mean, they're nice, but I could live without them.)

Spoiler

Show

So story time. There's someone at work I'm really interested in. I find her attractive, interesting, I get the whole weird empty feeling when you aren't around them that I completely forgot existed. We've been hanging out a month or so now, going to parties, heading to the mountains to see the meteor shower, always group activities. Well I told her that I was into her in one of our rare alone times and she kissed me, which I would have been fine with, except I stopped us because we were drunk.

I later told her I hope that isn't the only time we kiss, she said she agreed but that night she was feeling weird about it because of stuff that had happened with someone else the night before. I think she has some other thing sort of going on. It's not a relationship, as far as I'm aware it's mostly sex, but that doesn't bother me. I've since asked her out, and she said yes, and I'm looking forward to the date we have planned.

So, backstory out of the way, I really like this girl, and if things progress I imagine they'll eventually lead to sex. I am not there yet at all and if she wanted to tonight I certainly wouldn't go there. But eventually I'd be fine with it should things go in that direction.

However, I have little experience in that department. I don't believe in virginity and have done things that, were a lesbian to do it, would count as list virginity but not for straight men? Another reason I find the concept absurd. But that's a tangent. So, point is, I've never penetrated someone.

If we had sex, I'd hope not to be a disappointment. I'd likely start out giving her oral, and am less in need of advice there, (I'd also be more comfortable with that earlier, seeing as it would be less for my pleasure, being down there isn't appealing in and of itself, but I would enjoy making her feel good,) but as for the traditional sex, I'm at a bit of a loss. I've never even watched a video of people having sex as that doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not all too concerned with premature ejaculation. I'd accept tips in that department, but I doubt it'll be a problem. It's always taken a helluva lot of stimulation to get me off and one woman I dated was never able to get me off with hand stuff. Another could, but it took awhile. And I still usually didn't finish. In this regard I wonder if I have the orgasmic sensibilities of most woman. Either way.

No, I'm more worried about how I can prepare so that I can be decent if the situation arises in the next couples months. Are there books I should read? Any videos I should watch? I'm a pretty thorough researcher but with all the unrealistic porn/PUA crap out there I'd rather get direction from real people than google. Other issues/advice/warnings with people on the ace spectrum dating people who have more casual sex I'll also take. Also a bit worried she'll find it odd that I'm in my mid twenties and have only had two real girlfriends, one of which lasted two years, and have never been past 'third base' as it were. It's not a confidence issue or a matter of bing comfortable around women. Shoot, I didn't date it all in high school and had several chances. I just wasn't interested. Still, she may find it strange.

Thanks, people.

Spoiler

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Disclaimer: I am about the last person I'd recommend anyone going to for advice on sex or relationships. This includes my brother, who's in full-on slut mode (his words) right now after blowing up his relationship with his fiancee in a spectacular fashion.

That said, I think what I'm going to say is pretty standard advice. Talk to her. Explain that you're inexperienced (you don't have to go into detail if you don't want to) and that you'd appreciate her showing/telling you what gets her off and cutting you a little slack if you're awkward about it. Enough guys are too clueless to grasp that not all women get off from the same things that she could very well appreciate your willingness to be guided by her.

Sex is almost impossible to learn without doing it because it's not like basketball where there's one good way to make a freethrow. It's individual to your body, your comfort, your preferences, and your partner. The closest thing I can think of to universal good advice is "don't bend stiff things too much, and don't stick things in holes unless they're comfortably slippery."

[SilentNight]

Thanks y'all, given me food for thought, I'll check back in when anything changes.

[goto124]

Spoiler: I took this from the other LGBTAI thread

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I'm bringing a conversation from another thread, since I thought this place would be more suitable. I hope I don't sound too naive or unknowledgable.

Spoiler: Trans

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And to be honest: if there wasn't any difference, none at all, what would be the point of crossplaying? Or of being transsexual in real life? Or of identifying as a gender at all?

Real quick: this assertion always bugs me, because it simplifies a very complex dynamic in a way that can be very damaging to trans people... Now, things might definitely be EASIER, as I wouldn't have to deal with half of the problem I do in reality, but there would still be a problem that needs fixing. And it might actually make it HARDER, if this idea that lots of people have about being trans being a purely social thing is deeply entrenched: "There's no difference, so why does it matter?" Because there IS a difference, and it matters a heck of a lot!

It bugs me both ways, funnily enough. On one hand, people should be able to do what they want to do, regardless of sex/gender. For example, an woman shouldn't be prevented from going into combat on the basis of "women stay in the kitchen and don't fight", and a man should not be criticised for wearing pink because "real men don't wear 'girly' colors".

In that line of thinking, gender does not make a difference. But then we get to what Lvl 2 Expert asked: if there's any point to gender, and what to think about transsexuality/transgenderism/I'm afraid I'm unfamilar with the different 'trans' words. So far I've taken the stance of "don't judge them on their gender identity", but now it seem rather unfulfilling.

It makes me wonder, why do the 'trans' things come about? Is it mostly/purely due to gender constructs (expectations of different genders) created by society? What happens when these constructs are torn down, even if it's not realistic to remove all of them?

I think she started talking about two-spirit people and other things like that? It's been years, I don't remember.



Might be better to put this one in the LGBTAI+ Questions thread.

So in gender theory there's an important distinction made. Things like "women stay in the kitchen" and "men don't wear pink" are called "gender roles," which are culture-specific social constructs. Then there's an individual's "gender expression," which is how they act to express themself within those societal gender roles. And then there's an individual's "gender identity," which seems to be an innate and unchangeable biological/neurological trait. Somebody who's transgender has a gender identity that doesn't match their genital configuration at birth. (As an example from the cisgender side of things, read about David Reimer. That should probably have a TW on it.) Most transgender people experience some degree of psychological and emotional discomfort ("gender dysphoria") with their genital configuration, secondary sex characters, and/or others treating them as the gender that matches their genital configuration at birth. Also, a transgender individual's gender expression doesn't necessarily match stereotypical gender roles for their gender. For example, a transgender woman (somebody who identifies as female but was "assigned male at birth," i.e. born with a penis and testes; also shortened to AMAB or MAAB) can like cars, football, and beer, and only wear jeans and sports t-shirts (stereotypically "masculine" gender expression), but still have an innate feeling that she's a woman and not a man. Gender expression is not the same as gender identity.

Nobody really knows. No. Personal gender identity is completely separate from societally imposed gender roles.

There is a great deal of intersection when it comes to gender expression, but if all gender roles were removed (ie men wearing pink/dresses being bad etc) trans people would still suffer from various forms of dysphoria. E.G. just because a male bodied person can wear a dress withou censure from society doesn't make a trans woman comfortable in her skin all of a sudden. It would like make societal dysphoria less of an issue though.

From a fairly superficial mind exercise sort of perspective, I tend to use the desert island idea: a trans woman all alone on a desert island would still be a woman; she just wouldn't have so much stuff around telling her that she's not.

The most I take away from the discussion so far: 'gender identity' is just a 'thing' you can feel but not quite pinpoint what it actually is, nor can you really have a 'reason' for feeling it. Much like... love?

It's weird and I may be misjudging, but that's my impression at this moment.

Completely unrelated

[Lissou]

Well, I don't really understand the concept of gender and I don't think I have one. But from what I see, being trans is different from gender roles because it has a physical aspect to it. What I mean is, being a transman isn't being a woman who likes manly stuff, and being a transwoman isn't about being a man who likes womanly stuff. If you're trans, you're not just gender nonconforming. It seems to me there is a physical aspect, you want to present as your gender, not the one assigned to you at birth. In most cases, you'll want hormones, or even surgery, so your body matches your perception of yourself.

And while I don't understand how genders are different (honestly, you can take people who are exactly the same on all the "gendered" issues, and they could be different genders, and people who are the same gender could have nothing in common), I do understand body differences. So I think even in a world where personality traits and behaviours aren't associated with one gender or another, trans people would still go "my body doesn't feel right".

Now for trans people who don't feel the need to present differently and are fine with their bodies as they look, then I guess to them a gender-free society could mean they don't identify as trans anymore, but for other trans people it wouldn't really change anything I don't think.

And while I try to stay open to the possibilities because I know I don't understand gender, and I don't want to exclude people for not reason, I find it very difficult to understand the concept of, say, a person who would go "Oh, please keep calling me "he" and never call me "she", and I don't want to shave my beard or look feminine in any way, and I'm comfortable with everyone seeing me as a man and I wouldn't want anyone to think of me as a woman, but I'm a transwoman". I can imagine a genderqueer or agender person not caring enough to act any differently, but would this person even qualify as trans in the first place? Being trans always seems to have a condition of wanting to be seen differently so I don't think it can be completely dissociated from the physical aspect of things, even though I realise not all trans people want to transition in the most extreme ways.

[AmberVael]

If you ask me, I think we have a problem in that a lot of our language and thinking is centered around a single word and concept, while all the new definitions and ideas we're putting out are getting pretty distinct from one another. I think we're at a point where we're well aware that our ideas are outdated, but our method of expressing and thinking about it is still held back by old concepts and language since that's what we have to work with (and since what new language and words we have are frequently unfamiliar, misunderstood, and even just still in flux).

To get bluntly right down to the point, if you were to rip away all gender roles and people could be comfortable doing/wearing/being whatever they want, I'd still have a problem. And the problem is that my body is not in the right shape as it includes some tackle I'd rather not go fishing with.

I've come to a point where I view gender roles and expression as largely irrelevant to this issue. I should be able to do what I want in that area regardless of my body configuration. But that has no impact on my feelings on my configuration. I'm not looking to be an especially feminine girl, but I am looking to be a girl.

And there is no real reason for this. I can give explanations for it, but in the end its much like giving an explanation for why you like a flavor of ice cream. You can put words to it, but that doesn't make it any less a very personal thing. No matter how much you explain that you love chocolate ice cream to me, how the taste is rich and lovely, I'm still going to think it tastes bad.

[Absol197]

Spoiler: I took this from the other LGBTAI thread

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The most I take away from the discussion so far: 'gender identity' is just a 'thing' you can feel but not quite pinpoint what it actually is, nor can you really have a 'reason' for feeling it. Much like... love?

It's weird and I may be misjudging, but that's my impression at this moment.

Completely unrelated

Hey, I didn't see you had switched threads, so I'm bringing this over from the other one, to make sure you see it:

This is part of what I was talking about in the crossplaying thread. The word "gender" in and of itself is too simple to describe the complex nature of the subject.

There are at LEAST two main concepts that have to be separated out to truly understand gender: Gender Expression, and Gender Identity.

Spoiler: Gender Expression

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Gender Expression is, not surprisingly, how you present and express yourself, and how that fits into your culture's ideas of sex and gender. This is what most people think of when the think of gender and sex as separate, but its not the thing that transgender people mean when they say their gender and sex don't match (they usually mean gender identity). Gender Expression is culturally dependent, and subject to change, often several times in one person's lifetime.

For instance: is someone who likes make-up expressing themselves as masculine or feminine? How about high heels? Well, that depends: in modern culture, both are considered feminine, so someone who enjoys both would be labeled as having a feminine expression. However, in pre-revolutionary France, both were considered to be extremely masculine. In fact, we have portraits of French kings wearing copious amounts make-up and high heels, and feeling very manly as they do it. Also, a person's preferences can change during their life-time. Someone might like make-up, and then decide it's not as fun as it used to be, only to have their interest renewed years later by some event or other.

Now, trans people often (but not always) gravitate towards activities, clothing, and other things that are coded the same as their gender, either because they enjoy those things, because they feel it helps them be recognized as who they are (which is a VERY big deal for trans people), or both. If fact, cisgender people do this too: many people will gravitate towards things coded for their gender, not because they like those things, but simply because society says they should and they don't want to go through the difficulties of explaining why they choose not to.

However! People don't need to be trans to enjoy things that are coded for a gender different to their own. "Sports" are generally coded as masculine, and there are plenty of women who enjoy sports, either watching or participating, and drag queens and kings wear clothing coded to the opposite gender without being trans. Whether someone uses opposite-gender coded things simply as a means to be non-conformist, or because they simply enjoy them, it doesn't matter.

And as I said, people can change. While the social code on certain items and activities might not change very easily, people can change how they feel about those things (and often do) quite often.

If society were to change such that nothing was coded as either masculine or feminine, then trans people would have no need to seek out things that help support their gender, because those things would not exist. They could simply continue to enjoy the things they enjoy, and that would be that. Social change could eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) social dysphoria, by not causing any backlash when someone uses or prefers a gender-specific thing against their perceived gender.

Spoiler: Gender Identity

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This is the big one, and the one that is most important to trans people. The way I'm going to explain this is the way I think that makes it the easiest to understand, and is an accepted theory that has recently started to get some evidence in support (it's also my personal belief on how it works):

Brains. We know that male and female brains have a different structure, and different neuro-chemical design. So what happens when a brain that has a female structure is attached to a male body? Or vice-versa? This is what most trans people mean by Gender Identity, and it's the most important part of the discussion. Identity means that some powerful, internal part of you, whether you want to call it your soul, your mind, your brain, whatever, is strongly asserting that your body doesn't match.

Going with the idea of the brain, my brain has, for basically my entire life, been sending "Error" messages because it's attached to a body that's the wrong shape. These got exponentially worse once puberty hit, because now I have the wrong hormones, and things are changing to make my shape even more wrong.

Social change can do nothing to prevent this. A perfectly gender-neutral society would still have trans people, because their brains would still be sending "Error" messages to them because their attached to the wrong body type.

Now, obviously, we can't correct this socially, but what else can we do? Well, invasive brain surgery to completely re-wire someone's brain is impossible (even assuming the physical brain is where the discrepancy is), and that's probably never going to change. But, we can easily alter the hormones flowing through one's system, which does a great job of changing many things that the brain thinks are wrong, and if that's not enough, there are additional surgeries that can be done to brings things more in line.

But the important take away is that, for the majority of trans people, something important and intrinsic is mismatched, and no amount of social change can fix that mismatch. It can help alleviate some of the side effects, but it can't make it go away entirely.

So, in summary: social constructs of gender are a part of the problem, but they are not the only problem, nor (in my personal opinion) the BIGGEST part of the problem for trans people. The fact the something is physically or spiritually or mentally wrong between how they were build and how they're supposed to be is the main thing. And while social expectations and misunderstanding can exacerbate that, getting rid of the social aspect can't fix the problem entirely, because of that very important non-social aspect that would still be hanging around.

Now, about your new question, there's really no objective way to measure your Gender Identity at the moment. It's all subjective. But it's there, as real as anything, and most trans people who are given the chance to learn about the possibility of being trans are able to fairly accurately diagnose it. Obviously, people who are prevented from learning about gender in a meaningful way might remain confused, and that combined with people who know but are prevented from doing anything about it by their family or society or just their circumstances contributes to the appallingly high suicide rate for trans people.

~Phoenix~

P.S. Also, please note that I'm specifically talking about binary trans folk here, because it's the easiest to understand from a cisgender point of view, and once you understand the binary version, it's easier to understand non-binary and genderqueer folks.

[Ifni]

Also worth noting:

(1) Not everyone feels a sense of personal gender identity, including many (but by no means all) people who would generally consider themselves cis. This does not make it less real or important for those who do experience it (whether cis, trans, or identifying as neither). If you Just Don't Grok Gender Identity that's okay (I don't either, and it annoys me when I see statements like "Gender identity - one's sense of being a man or a woman - is a fundamental perception experienced by all individuals"), but that doesn't invalidate others' experiences.

(2) Some trans people experience physical dysphoria, some do not. Some trans people do seem to see their gender identity as primarily dealing with cultural notions of gender*, rather than anything physical, whereas others see it as purely physical. We classify all these people under the same umbrella, because in our gendered society, they are all seeking (very broadly speaking) the same kind of fair treatment and recognition. In a society without cultural associations with gender, this kind of umbrella might not make sense anymore - but this hypothetical genderless society, while interesting to think about, is kind of irrelevant to how trans people are treated in our present culture.

*For example, this is a blog entry by a trans woman who experiences physical dysphoria, but also describes her internal gender identity in terms of cultural factors - see the section beginning "What is an internal gender?", where she says that she associates toughness with maleness and gentleness with femaleness, gives being drawn to pretty clothes as an example of her internal gender, and says "I actually think that these things are all somehow innate to me. My internal gender is flowy, cute, tender, radiant, and beautiful". (She is careful to say she doesn't mean this to be prescriptive of how other people experience gender, but this is what she means when she says she feels like a woman.)

I can totally imagine people wanting to socially transition because of social factors: social factors are important, and it doesn't make those people's desire to transition less valid. But when you group together the people who are perfectly comfortable with their bodies but feel way better and more affirmed in the cultural-social role of the other binary gender, with people who have no interest in adhering to gender roles (or like their birth-assigned gender role) but experience horrible body dysphoria, I feel it is probably a mistake to try to come up with One Single Theory To Explain Them All. It's a grouping that makes perfect sense in the context of "how can trans people affirm their identities, and how can others support them" (by supporting access to transition, working against transphobia, etc), but I don't think it should be viewed as immutable.

[goto124]

Woah! Thanks for the helpful responses, everyone! That really cleared up a lot of my confusion, as a cis female trying to understand the topic of genders.

From what I understand, there's Gender Expression Dysphoria (which is mainly cultural), and there's Gender Identity Dysphoria (which is mainly innate, and very hard to explain since it's not reasonable, just something you happen to feel). Changing cultural expectations to get rid of 'things girls shouldn't do' and 'things boys shouldn't do' helps a lot with Gender Expression Dysphoria (whether or not the people are comfortable with their bits), but it won't touch Gender Identity Dysphoria.

Why I mentioned the hypothetical genderless society: those sort of societies can appear in fantasy roleplaying games. I was trying to get into the head of a character, who'd managed to get himself into some convoluted circumstances.

At this point I started rambling about my character, but then I thought that it wasn't really relevant to the largely RL discussion anyway.

[Ifni]

I haven't heard it called gender expression dysphoria before, that's an interesting turn of phrase. I think it makes sense to me.

There was a period when I was a young teenager where I was living in a place where there was pretty strong and overt cultural pressure against being female and good at math, and during that period I made a conscious decision to present as much more neuter-to-masculine (cut my hair, stopped wearing skirts in public, wore the tightest sports bras I could find under baggy T-shirts), and fairly strongly rejected associations between myself and anything feminine. (I also preferred gender-neutral pronouns and forms of address, and when I was writing stories, I tended to give all my female characters male titles like "Lord" and "King" rather than the feminine equivalents.) That was pretty explicitly culturally driven - everyone was telling me that being a girl and math-nerdiness were incompatible, and I had a much stronger sense of identity as a math nerd than as a girl. But when I moved back to a country where that pressure was less obvious, I slowly became more comfortable with a more feminine presentation (although it was 5+ years before I was willing to grow my hair again, or wear any kind of fitted top). During the period of adjustment, there was an incident where I was asked to wear a skirt and high heels (to give a speech at a fairly conservative organization) - I remember looking at myself in the mirror and wanting to scream or smash something, it was a surge of totally irrational but very powerful fury (fueled by "that girl in the mirror is not me, and I don't want to be her"). I don't identify as trans and don't experience gender identity dysphoria at all (or gender identity, for that matter), but I think I've probably had a touch of 'gender expression dysphoria' (mild compared to what many trans people deal with). And I know that in my case, it was cultural, and moving to a more gender-egalitarian culture fixed it.

More generally, while I don't think I have a sense of personal internal gender identity (as opposed to identifying myself as "a member of the culturally determined social category referred to as 'woman', which was imposed on me and has had a considerable influence on my life"), I do understand on a visceral level the concept that sometimes your brain does something you can't understand or explain, it's not rational but that doesn't make it less real. I read a comment from a trans woman that she didn't know what gender identity was, but she knew that she had felt awful for years, and then she allowed herself to think of herself as a woman (and present as a woman so others reinforced that self-concept), and stopped feeling awful - something mysterious in her brain/mind really cared about her self-concept with regard to gender, and when she fixed it, it felt right.

For me, at least, that makes perfect sense and is easy to understand and empathize with, even if we don't know the underlying cause. I think (could be wrong) that most of us have experienced cases where our brain seems to be irrationally happy or sad about something. Love was an example given earlier, I think - or limerence might be another word, for that sense of floating euphoria you can get just from seeing someone or spending time with them. Depression is an example in the other direction, or its milder and more common cousins, where you feel sick or lonely or morose and just not up to dealing with anything, even though rationally nothing has really changed. Brains send weird signals all the time.

(My most recent totally-unprovoked-emotional-rush happened when I visited Edinburgh for the first time. I have no emotional connection to Edinburgh; I'd never been there before, I hadn't read about its history, I was just there to try to briefly meet up with a cousin. And yet I spent my first evening there feeling bizarrely euphoric and delighted about everything I saw. I have no explanation for this except that brains are weird.)

[Ifni]

Yup. To be clear, I'm not trying to minimize the experiences of dysphoria and feeling a strong gender identity, by comparing them to other Stuff Your Brain Does. I just find that most well-intentioned people can empathize with "brain sending messages that are hard to pin down or explain logically", and can then pretty straightforwardly understand "but empirically, regarding myself as [gender or lack thereof] and being treated as [gender or lack thereof] alleviates the discomfort, so that seems like a good solution", and then make the step from there to "and if you deliberately interfere with that without a really strong reason, then you are being obnoxious and hurtful".

I guess that may be unsatisfying to some people, because it's very much an empirical statement rather than a causal one ("dysphoria hurts, transition makes it better" rather than "everyone has an intrinsic essence of gender / male and female brains are fundamentally different / etc, and person A has the 'wrong' one, which is why dysphoria hurts and why transition makes it better"), but I haven't yet found a general theory that sounds plausible to me and doesn't erase a lot of people's experiences, and the empirical statement already seems like plenty to justify supporting trans people without getting tangled up in philosophical debates about What Really Defines A Woman/Man/Non-Binary Person.

EDIT: I am, as mentioned, cis, at least where cis is defined as "not trans" rather than "has a strong gender identity matching one's gender assigned at birth" (I've seen it defined both ways). I'm sorry if I'm speaking over trans people here, I am just offering my own thoughts.

[ThinkMinty]

How many people were able to sort out their orientation/identities without experimentation or having someone suggest it?

Spoiler: Reply-in-a-Box

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In my case, no, not me. My heterosexuality (I kinda like gynephilia better as a term for it, because heterosexual on some level implies I like other genders that aren't mine, which ain't really apt to my situation, since I just like women) was field tested against the possibility of bein' bisexual. I'm...apparently good at it, but I don't get any enjoyment out of it and I didn't so much have the attraction as I did a scientific bi-curiosity. On one level, my sample size might not've been big enough given that I mostly just exploited games of "gay chicken" to check in with my feelings, but my response to it was "eh", rather than "eww" or "unf", so I don't really know what that's supposed to mean. Maybe I just lack boundaries? I don't quite mesh into the whole of heteronormativity in regards to how I'm hetero anyways, so I kinda stop caring about exactly where my lines are unless it's a consent thing. Consent stuff is important to me 'cuz I don't wanna be a jerk to someone I like enough to want to be inside of, or anyone else for the sake of consistency and not being a douche.

I'm also at least as heteroromantic as I am heterosexual, turns out. Aromantic girls aren't too big on the smooching (which I'm good enough at that I like to show off, dammit!), apparently...or at least the aro girl I was foolin' around a few weeks ago isn't. I really really didn't mind that much 'cuz she was super accommodating in regards to stuff I'mma get into later in the post.

Romantic orientations exist outside of the context of ace people, apparently. That's...neat to find out.

Unsure how universal that is for aro people, probably shouldn't make assumptions like that based on one pansexual aro girl and her general awesomeness.

Anyways, as for my err, non-normative stuff: I'm polyamorous¹, a bit of a xenophile², at least moderately kinky³...and I have a pretty strong preference for soft/curvy/chubby/plus-sized/bigger women⁴. That last one is probably the only one I've ever had any trouble coming to terms with, and this year is the year I became honest about it; in part 'cuz a friend of mine who's really observant figured it out through observation of my rubbernecking and other behavior. Gotta say, it's a lot less stressful not feeling like I have to cover that up.

Spoiler: Footnotes!

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1: Unless I'm hiding it as to not be given...well, crap about it. I'm also not a hypocrite about it, but it is still possible to cheat on me if the relationship isn't open or if it is but the terms of openness weren't remotely adhered to.
2: Pretty much any girl who doesn't match up with me in at least one phenotypic fashion. Dating a girl who was quite similar to me on most aesthetic fronts besides the sexual dimorphism felt kinda incestuous. I'm probably overselling it, all it takes for me to stop thinking about it could be something as simple as a different shade of blonde than mine, or a different eye color. This extends to the hypothetical scenario of like, non-human women. One of the reasons I'm a fantasy/sci-fi fan is all the cute different-from-me chicks.
3: I don't know how much I can get into in the forum, so I'll leave it at...light bondage on either side of the rope and havin' a girl sit on my face are things that make me happy. PM me if you really, really have to know, but I'm warning you that full disclosure gets hella subjective.
4: Or whatever the proper term is.

[ThinkMinty]

...for some reason, the several days of silence in the thread are makin' me nervous. It's probably all in my head, but still.

[goto124]

I came across a website that talks about how to tell and what to do if your child is trans.

Earlier on in this thread, we had a discussion about the difference between gender expression and gender identity.

Is it correct to say that children are able to tell the difference between "a boy who happens to like pink dresses" and "a boy who wants to be a girl", and that children are and should be able to make judgements of their gender identity?

[AmberVael]

I think the observation I'd make is that it took me a long time to figure it out about myself and I've known people who took substantially longer than I did. And years later, I'm still trying to decide exactly what it means about me and the full details of it all. So, do I think a kid would have it all figured out? Hardly. But then, that's no reason to stifle or dismiss a child's expression. Its more a lesson in humility and learning not to make judgments that you really don't have the information to make- don't go assuming anything either way really, just take everything step by step and let it play out. Its okay to get things wrong. To experiment with something and have it not work out. Chances are, everyone is doing that right now in some area of their life. So let the kid experiment or try on a different identity if they want. Most of the more irreversible and drastic steps would happen later down the line anyway, so you're probably not taking any real risks.