Dresden Files III: You Want Gun Hand or Sandwich Hand?

[Mauve Shirt]

I like it, Rater!
I mean I'll love the books either way I'm sure. I'll probably reread them annually for the rest of eternity. I just think it'd be interesting to shake it up for the Grand Finale. Butcher does keep referring to the BAT as if it were completely separate from the 25ish DF books, so maybe it's treated that way.

Alternatively it's told from Mister's perspective. He's clearly going to be the catalyst behind the apocalypse anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

So did anyone like the idea of a dragon-centric DF story? At the very least, I'd like to find out who the other surviving great dragon is.

[Legato Endless]

Sounds amusing, though I'd settle for a short story detailing Michael slaying Siriothrax.

Of the as yet unseen signatories, the one I'd most like to get an appearance from would be Drakul.

[Zyzzyva]

Sounds amusing, though I'd settle for a short story detailing Michael slaying Siriothrax.

I'd read the hell out of that. (It's where he met Charity, right?)

[Lord Ruby34]

I'd read the hell out of that. (It's where he met Charity, right?)

Yeah.

Honestly, I'd love a story with Micheal as the viewpoint character. I'd read the crap out of that.

[Halae]

Sadly, I doubt that'll ever happen - Butcher's espoused an unwillingness to do a viewpoint of a devout character because he isn't one, and doesn't want to offend people.

[IthilanorStPete]

I just decided to start getting into this series and picked up Storm Front at the library. One thing that put me off at the start was Harry's sexism; does that either change during the series, or at least get pointed out as problematic and addressed?

[thorgrim29]

Sexist how? Harry is a very visually oriented, continually horny protagonist and that doesn't change much in the series (likely because of the noir inspirations), though he does get less easy to manipulate as he ages. So no, the constant reminders that Susan, Lea, Mab, and other female characters are incredibly gorgeous don't really go away. I don't see this as sexism however, it's not like he harasses them or anything, we're just getting his inner monologue.

The other possibility would be his attitude, and one thing to understand is that one of his defining traits is a large helping of old fashioned chivalry, where women are to be protected and not hurt. He is called out on it constantly and it gets him in trouble roughly 3 times a book. He even regularly comments that it's irrational and that a lot of women find it a bit insulting but that he can't help it. He does get better eventually after the gazilliionth time somebody/something uses that against him.

I haven't read Storm Front in a while so I don't off hand remember if it was particularly bad on those points compared to later books, but it's worth noting that pretty much everything about the series and the writing starts getting way better when the metaplot and the best paladin ever get introduced in book 3.

[Rater202]

Harry isn't sexist. It's just he's the kind of person who notices if a person looks good: In later books, he tends to describe a male vampire associate of his as being attractive. It's just, he prefers the ladies and thus is quicker to notice the ladies.

And whether or not chivalry is considered sexist really depends on who you ask. A lot of women are offended by it, but their are also a lot of women who still like the whole "Pull out your chair, hold the door for you, and beat the crap out of people who try to hurt you" thing, so that's a context problem.

But I don't really remember much about the second in Storm Front.

Unless you're talking about Harry refusing to share information with Murphy. That's less motivated by "she's a girl, so I have to protect er" as much as it is "if she knows about magic stuff and becomes a problem, the Wizard Government will have her killed"

[Legato Endless]

Yes and no. Visual descriptions of people, and specifically *attractive women, don't really completely abate in the series, though some fans have claimed that the degree of this waxes and wanes compared to Harry's emotional state. Harry's a visual person and the books' style is to give awash of visual imagery for most people he meets of any interest. It will get worse in one of the much later books, though it's played for drama and is rooted in the central problem Harry is dealing with there. The chivalry aspect is a bit more complicated. Harry's a hero, and he takes responsibility for people to protect them regardless of they're desires and occasionally overreaches and places too much upon himself. If there's any aspect of Wizardly arrogance Harry manifests, its trying to take care of everyone and everything. This in and of itself isn't sexist, but sometimes it gets associated with Harry's old fashioned values about treating women differently. That gets somewhat better in the series, though it never precisely goes away, Harry does get less obnoxious about it. But no, basically these elements are minor parts of the series.

*Harry is also possibly a bit bisexual considering some of his male observations in the series

[Rater202]

*Harry is also possibly a bit bisexual considering some of his male observations in the series

Discounting white court Vampires, can you name any characters male he describes the way he'd describe a woman?

[thorgrim29]

Sanya maybe? He's usually described as handsome and super cut

Also, considering the particular white court vampire we're talking about, ick.

[Rater202]

Your wish is my command:

I have seen and done many strange things in my life. Now I'm seeing something even stranger while dead. Again. Three supernatural big boys all coming to meet me in the after life: Uriel the black ops archangel, Odin in full mythical norse regalia, and Hades with his outfit and crown of like, pure vordite hovering around his head. It was Ghost Chicago, the strange sort of after life place before the actual afterlife. They began to speak, Uriel first.
"Harry Dresden, you have saved the world."
Again.
Odin spoke up.
"But you sacrificed yourself heroically to do it."
Hades continued.
"Such an act deserves a reward in the best afterlife possible for you."
Then they all spoke at the same time:
"Harry I welcome you to-"
"-Heaven."
"-Valhalla."
"-Elysium."
They then look at each other. I decided to speak.
"Uh guys? You didn't seem to-"
"Valhalla is best for Harry Dresden! He died heroically! His death was worthy of kings, his life worthy of bards to sing down the ages!"
"No, Elysium is best! He lived a righteous life, and sure he would prefer the peace of Elysium to the constant battle of Valhalla."
"No, he should come to Heaven! He has demonstrated his virtue and dedication to doing what is right tie and again! Clearly he belongs with God!"
I blink. Where they seriously doing what I think they were doing?
Odin scoffs.
"Uriel, really? He never even believed in your all-knowing all-doing deity. He however has lived a life of battle and valor, and that is enough to get into Valhalla, where the beer is good, the women are plenty and you can always fight as much as you want and be ok!"
Hades responds
"Odin, he didn't fight because he enjoyed it like you and your Vikings, he did it out of necessity. Harry Dresden really wants a life of peace and joy. He has had enough battle in his life, why have more in his afterlife?"
"Because he gets to do it without anyone actually getting hurt?"
Urial butts back in.
"Need I remind you that he was trusted with two of the Swords of the Cross and resisted the temptation of one of Denarii? He is clearly one of God's children! He has done the lord's work, he belongs in Heaven."
They were. They really were. Can someone please me get some popcorn?
Odin rolls his eyes.
"No one cares Uriel. Virtue is not limited to your Christian values you know."
Hades crossed his arms and spoke back.
"Yeah but neither is every warrior a battle-thirsty lunatic hungering for more."
Odin turned to Hades
"and I supposed you think he wants to frolic around in meadows listening to your songs about how Zeus cheated on Hera again."
Hades frowned.
"Well at least my afterlife wouldn't have the downside of eventually being destroyed by Ragnarok."
Uriel speaks up again.
"What about Heaven?"
Hades and Odin respond in unison:
"What about Heaven?"
Uriel responds.
"Well it is the afterlife of the most powerful god EVER.....so I think its far more likely that He would be able to give Harry the best afterlife for him possible."
They both groan. Hades speaks again.
"Look, Heaven isn't all that there is you know. Just because you won the worship front doesn't mean you get to have every hero and moral person in the world to yourself. Save it for the true believers."
Odin nods in agreement.
"Yeah you already have enough, save some for us for a change."
Uriel crosses his arms.
"I'm only trying to give him the best afterlife for him-"
I cough audibly. Not that seeing the three biggest divine guides in my life argue over who gets to keep me and make me happy wasn't hilarious, but I need to cut to the chase.
"Yeah, don't I get a say in this? Since y'know I'm like....right here."
They look at each other and nod those knowing nods.
"Very well."
Odin says, smiling.
"How about you choose, Harry Dresden, which afterlife do you want to go? Heaven, Elysium or last but certainly the best, Valhalla?"
The other two glare at him for his obvious bias, I grin back and say
"D. None of the Above."
They then turn to look at me, slack-jawed.
"Instead, I want to be the God of Wisecracks. I think I can build myself a sweet pad from there."
They double take and begin to protest.
"You can't do that!"
"Why not?"
"Because.....uh...."
"Because nothing, I saved the world who knows how many times by now, I sacrificed my life to stop an apocalypse, numerous people have faith in me, I think I deserve some godhood. of Wisecracks. Make me the God of Wisecracks, I'm sure thats a godly position no one has filled yet."
They stop and stare at me as if I'm crazy, and I just grin wolfishly back. Then Odin bursts into laughter, then hades then finally Uriel at the thought. When the laughter died down, Odin says
"You never change do you, Dresden?"
"That he doesn't." Hades adds
"Very well, we will honor your request."
They all raise their hands and suddenly I glow with a divine light.
"From henceforth we imbue with divine power over Wisecracks, welcome to divinity, Harry Dresden, God of Wisecracks." Odin says.
"However that is not all your a God of: Your a god of determination, of courage. You will always be welcome to visit Valhalla"
Uriel continues.
"A god of standing up for what is right, for justice, of being the light in the dark. We will allow to visit Heaven."
Hades finishes.
"A god of heroes, a god of compassion and protecting those you feel compassion for. I will allow you into Elysium at any time."
They all finish:
"Go forth! and have a good afterlife, Harry Dresden!"
Suddenly the world flashes and I'm suddenly in a white space. An infinite white space. I feel it, all around me, its my place, and it can be whatever I want it to be. I have so much power over it that I can determine any detail I want about it. I snap my fingers.
Suddenly a replica of my old apartment comes into existence, every detail lovingly replicated down to the cheap rugs and other furniture I had in life, nothing left unchanged. Except for two things:
I had a TV. I had a computer.
With great pleasure I walk over to the couch, and finally do what I could not throughout my entire life:
I pick up the remote and turn on the TV.
Who needs Heaven anyways?

I somehow missed this.

I kind of get the mental image of the God of Wisecracks taking mortal form in order to attend his own funeral.

And nobody notices till the end.

And people are wondering what the hell is going on because that's clearly Harry in the casket, and then he's all just like "Yeah, I'm a god now"

and then people freak out at the thought of Harry having that much power.

[thorgrim29]

Alright so, In Cold Days, Mother Summer tells Harry that the names he used to summon Mother Winter were mostly correct, but that he didn't use their most potent name, as in one name for both Summer and Winter. I think the most likely one is Gaia, what do you guys think?

Oh also, best line of the book award goes to the Erlking with "Wizard, please"

[Rater202]

The implication is that it's "Fate".

[Rakaydos]

Alright so, In Cold Days, Mother Summer tells Harry that the names he used to summon Mother Winter were mostly correct, but that he didn't use their most potent name, as in one name for both Summer and Winter. I think the most likely one is Gaia, what do you guys think?

That's answered in Skin game.
The greek goddess of the crossroads is ALL the fairie queens.

[Delusion]

That's answered in Skin game.
The greek goddess of the crossroads is ALL the fairie queens.

But Atropos was one of the names Harry guessed in Cold Days was it not?

Anyway, one of the things I have been wondering lately is why Harry hasn't shared Nicodemus' weakness to anyone else? It seems like it would be useful thing for the knights of the cross to know for example.

[Rater202]

That's answered in the RPG: The Swords of the Cross have the ability to qualify for the "catch" of any toughness power, as long as their wielder is using them for the swords' purpose.

So, not only would the sword pierce through the protection of the noose, it would pierce through the protection Nicky gains from his fallen angel.

[Legato Endless]

Which is why Nicky's swordsmanship is still important. He can't just tank whatever blows come against a Knight of the Cross, and why Michael and Butters can force him to retreat.

[Metahuman1]

Spoiler: Length and not relevant to any ongoing discussion and some actual spoilers.

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Ok, so, I started getting back into the books recently, picking up with Ghost Story after the last book I'd read was Changes.

I didn't too much care for Ghost Story, I knew I wasn't gonna like it, the premise just hit a button with me, but yeah. So, moved on to Cold Days, and that was a lot better, until the tail end when it just decided to go stupid just for the sake of being darker. *Sigh.* But ok, though they could recover form this, butcher was a good writer I though.

And then picked up Skin Game. I am at the part were Nickodemus broke the sword of faith.


No. Just no. God, No. You were actually recovering and then you freaking drop that bomb shell on me.


I like this series cause while it can be dark at times, it knows how not to go too far. It doesn't sit there and sincerely make you feel like there's no hope or point because there is no fixing anything and it can only get worse. Except as of the last three books, It has been doing that. Worse, it's been increasingly making me think that it only brightens up here and there in order to string me along and think there's still hope after all when there is none.


Ok, so, I am gonna ask for a spoiler. Is the sword really broken, and is it gonna stay that way? Or, was that some kind of fake out? Or a deal were they can actually fix it because insert what-ever they have to insert here to it being up and operational again?

Cause, I gotta say, I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about dropping the series at this point, particularly if that wasn't a fake out and they don't end up having a way to fix it by the end, and it's really, truly gone, then yeah, I'm done.

[Rater202]

Spoiler

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Yes and no.

It was broken for real, but it gets reforged and used again, by the faith and power of ity's new fulltime wilder, at the Story's climax.

Remember, the swords aren't gone for good unless they're used to murder an innocent in cold blood.

I'm not going to tell you who reforges and wields it or what form it takes, but um, there's two bits of foreshadowing for it in Ghost Story.

also, the story is much um, lighter, with a happier ending, then the last few books.

[Halae]

Rater is correct. You have hit the darkest point in that book, and it only gets better from there.

[razorfloss]

Spoiler: Length and not relevant to any ongoing discussion and some actual spoilers.

Show

Ok, so, I started getting back into the books recently, picking up with Ghost Story after the last book I'd read was Changes.

I didn't too much care for Ghost Story, I knew I wasn't gonna like it, the premise just hit a button with me, but yeah. So, moved on to Cold Days, and that was a lot better, until the tail end when it just decided to go stupid just for the sake of being darker. *Sigh.* But ok, though they could recover form this, butcher was a good writer I though.

And then picked up Skin Game. I am at the part were Nickodemus broke the sword of faith.


No. Just no. God, No. You were actually recovering and then you freaking drop that bomb shell on me.


I like this series cause while it can be dark at times, it knows how not to go too far. It doesn't sit there and sincerely make you feel like there's no hope or point because there is no fixing anything and it can only get worse. Except as of the last three books, It has been doing that. Worse, it's been increasingly making me think that it only brightens up here and there in order to string me along and think there's still hope after all when there is none.


Ok, so, I am gonna ask for a spoiler. Is the sword really broken, and is it gonna stay that way? Or, was that some kind of fake out? Or a deal were they can actually fix it because insert what-ever they have to insert here to it being up and operational again?

Cause, I gotta say, I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about dropping the series at this point, particularly if that wasn't a fake out and they don't end up having a way to fix it by the end, and it's really, truly gone, then yeah, I'm done.

lets just say it comes back in very surprising way

[Lord Raziere]

Metahuman. I say this, as a fan of Dresden Files and as a guy who knows you don't like that sort of stuff:

keep reading.

trust me on this. the ending is awesome in so many ways, that you will regret not reading it if you ever find out about it from a different source. I wish I could tell you what the ending. I wish I could. but I think, you should soldier on and discover it for yourself and be amazed....it'll be worth it, trust me.

[Metahuman1]

Spoiler: My above post and responses too it.

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Oh, thank god. I really didn't want to have to drop this series on grounds of the writer loosing his knack for controlling how dark he let his books get.

That said, I have still lost pretty much all respect for Mab at this point on grounds of her being a moron who didn't take care of the enemy she was well aware of having contaminated Mavea quite some time before Cold Days got into motion. Seriously. You've PROVEN you can cure this cause you did it for Harry's Godmother, are you honestly telling me you couldn't order the winter lady to meet you at your stronghold, the height of your power, with the full force of your court to back you up, during actual winter, and just imprison her and treat the problem? Really? Yeah, no, lady, your a moron who was too busy wanting to play chess. And I wouldn't mind that except that you got a likeable character killed, hampered your new knight that you wanted oh so badly that you've been chasing him for like a decade and whom is a SERIOUS investment in improving your own power in several ways, got stuck with a new inexperience and by your own admission very ill suited winter lady, screwed your OTHER daughter over every possible way to Sunday, and the only reason you yourself both lived through it and didn't get imprisoned and cause reality to fall to the outsiders is because you miraculously and by the skin of your teeth managed to not have an opponent who was willing to just do it, and the ONLY reason he wasn't at snapping point with you over the matter was because Mother Summer showed him more of the score and this was through no action of your own.

And on top of that, you got your own daughter killed. And I wouldn't be bothering to point out the fates of the daughters as a negative to the way she played this, except the book it happened in made a massive stinking deal about how at the end of the day she's still a mother and she still really does care about her daughters in as much of a way as she can.


No, Mab, your a moron, and it's a miracle the outsiders haven't taken reality if you've been the one in charge of holding them back for any meaningful length of time. I didn't much like you, but I could respect you before that. Not so much after. (As an aside, really, the lady's can manipulate time, your more powerful then both of them combined with a comparably or arguably more powerful still ally backing you up, but you couldn't slow time when Mavae moved the gun to shoot Lilly? Or when she fired so that the bullet could be redirected or something? Really? I might have let that slide if it wasn't for the whole you had years to prevent it even getting that far thing, but you had them and didn't bother. so no, you don't get that benefit of the doubt.)

[Halae]

Spoiler

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Meta, you're ignoring the simple fact that Maeve was a rebellious bitch. The chances of her actually letting her mother take her in long enough for all that to happen were pretty small, not to mention the civil war it'd spark if Mab was seen imprisoning her own daughter, even if she claimed it was for her own good (because there's no way she could tell everybody what was actually happening, and fey can't lie).

[Rater202]

Spoiler

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Also, the implication is that there's more than one kind of Nemesis infection, and that you have to want it to be cured.

Maev liked being infected, because it gave her powers that the fae don't normally have.

Lea implicitly wanted to be cured, and it still took years.

[Legato Endless]

Spoiler

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The Winter Lady didn't want to be cured. Even Mab can't force that. Free will isn't just something Angels have to deal with. And no, Mab wasn't free to just do whatever she wanted. That's a big theme in this series. With power comes responsibility for our wizard Spider-man. And not just him. Everyone. Harry doesn't become more free the more power he gets. He gets more responsibility, and the ability to shoulder and direct those burdens. Learning about the Oblivion War was one more thing that embroiled him. And Mab isn't just much stronger than Harry, with a commensurately greater responsibility, she's also the monarch of a race that's bound by a million rules of interaction. Mab couldn't just power solve her daughter's problem, anymore than Uriel could just obliterate half the issues he has to fret about on a daily basis.

Also, time manipulation or any other attempt to nullify Maeve's actions would be pointless by the time Maeve decided to kill her sister. At that point, the Winter Lady had to die to fill her vacancy with another more qualified individual. Letting Maeve live at that point was against Mab's purposes once she cross the point of no return.

[Metahuman1]

Spoiler: Cold Days Spoiler.

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With that power comes a responsibility all right. Tops among them, a responsibility to deal with Nemisis. And given that Mavea was blowing her job off for 150 years, the only party's that would have questioned it would have been Fey. Whom are evidently all in on what Mab's job actually is. So, no, I'm not buying that imprisoning her for years or for a decade or two or five or whatever it took would have been a thing she couldn't justify doing. Particularly when she can just say "Same thing that hit Lea, dealing with it, in house matter/family matter/under my preview, don't worry about it it's under control, as much as anything ever really is anyway."

And that power also comes with authority. She CAN straight up order the winter lady to come to her inner strong hold and then imprison her. If she couldn't she could not have done things like given Harry the 12 hour or what ever it was head start with out having to worry about the winter lady and her lackey's coming for him. Can't have it both ways. Just like you can't sit there and go "The less skilled and powerful lady's can try to do time manipulation, but Mab can't." because doing so would have been too her advantage. Even if it didn't save her daughter, it could have let her at least install her other daughter as Winter Lady. Someone who was prepared for it. Instead of having her forced into being an unwilling summer lady with all the problems that was gonna make. Not the least of which kicking some notable allies out from under her knight, which means, again, went to all that grief to get him and then isn't bothering to try and meaningfully capitalize on him. And again, landing her with a Winter Lady she didn't want and who, by her own admission, was gonna be a REALLY lousy fit for the job.

(As an aside, yeah, the whole thing at the beginning of skin games were she's been interfering with him getting people on that Island was garbage. That Reeked of the author wanting to keep Dresden hobbled as much as possible, and all it did was make Mab look too stupid to grasp the basic concept that a stronger knight was to her advantage, and since he's a wizard, allowing him to provision himself with the tools to use his skills and ability's to best effect is a big deal on making him stronger.)

So, no, no, I'm calling BS. Mab is officially, canonically, something of a moron who as of the last couple of books seems to be hell bent on shooting herself in the foot and causing problems for everyone else in the process. She's just brilliantly lucky that Dresden didn't have the presence of mind to tell the Island to hold her mantle for awhile and then shoot her so that it didn't auto transfer when she died. If he had had that much presence of mind at that time, he could have summoned up someone he'd rather have been the winter queen. Or maybe given it to her daughter in exchange for the summer mantle and passed that along somewhere else and shuffled them around till he'd gotten it squared. (And you cannot say the Island isn't that powerful, not when it's been made clear even MAB doesn't think she can take it on and win, and it's specialty is taking major powers in and containing them.)

[thorgrim29]

Spoiler: Response to Metahuman

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We sort of have to assume that Maeve in Summer Knight was unaffected by Nemesis to give us an idea of who she was. And who she was was spiteful, immature, manipulative and pointlessly cruel. We also learn in Cold Days that she was jealous of her sister and resentful of her responsibilities this whole time. She wanted to be freed from her obligations so, unlike Cat Sith and Lea, she was a collaborator (Lea is gleefully what she is, she revels in it, and we see that Cat Sith was completely replaced by Nemesis at the end of Cold Days). No reason to think Mab would be able to cure her, and given the circumstances Mother Winter would probably refuse to help hoping her replacement would be better suited for the role. Interestingly, this and Lily's attitude in Proven Guilty and Cold Days also implies that the Lady mantles are not as strong as advertised in terms of influencing the holders.

Also, the climax to Cold Days was on Demonreach, not in Faerie, no reason for Mab to be able to manipulate time outside her realm. As for her attitude towards Harry... Mab knows that for Harry to actually help her she needs a handle on him or to offer him a cause he'd have taken up on his own. She was probably planning on turning on Nicodemus with Marcone and Odin for a while, and for Harry to participate he had to be on his last legs and acting to save someone (and the "save the offspring" impulse has proven to be ridiculously strong in Harry).

Not saying that she's perfect, but I don't think Mab is as irrational as you make her to be, it's just that since she knows exactly how unwilling Harry is to serve her (he actually got himself killed to get out of it remember) and what he'll do if she compels him magically she's making a lot of efforts to indirectly give him no choice.