Adding charges to magic items in MIC

[Iron Angel]

My question is how to add charges to items in the MIC. For instance, say I got some Storm Gauntlets. These have 4 charges a day. What would be the cost of making them 6 charges? 10 charges? More?

I suppose I could just buy two or three sets and switch them out, but switching them requires an action. Is there some way to just increase the number of daily charges? If so, what is the price?

[Crake]

My question is how to add charges to items in the MIC. For instance, say I got some Storm Gauntlets. These have 4 charges a day. What would be the cost of making them 6 charges? 10 charges? More?

I suppose I could just buy two or three sets and switch them out, but switching them requires an action. Is there some way to just increase the number of daily charges? If so, what is the price?

I would probably calculate the cost of multiple magic items in one, which i believe is x1.5 for each additional one. So for example, storm is 10,000gp (note that the 604gp is for the masterwork gauntlets, so doesn't count for this calculation). To add the enchantment on again would be 15000 for each additional time, which would add 4 more charges.

That's how I would run it anyway.

[Crake]

These things are left entirely up to DM's purview, however, there are guidelines that items with charges per day cost X/(charges/5), so an item with 4 charges per day costs 0.8X, one with 6 charges costs 1.2X, so on, so forth.

The reason I would run it my way and not this way is because at a strictly linear cost increase, you get the same cost of buying the item twice (that is double the charges, once you increase it to that point) but with a better result (not having to swap items when you run out of charges), which makes it superior with no downside.

Edit: ... that post was there. I swear I didn't double post, don't be mad at me internet.

[ILM]

By and large, magic creation rules state that the cost of an X/day item is calculated as X/5 * [base cost]. Whatever that cost was, it would follow that if the item as printed has X charges per day, and you want Y, you'd simply multiply the cost by Y/X. That's more or less DM territory though.

Which looks like basically what heavyfuel wrote before deleting his post.

[Extra Anchovies]

ILM is correct. Your formula for price is (original price)*(new number of charges)*(old number of charges).

[Iron Angel]

So a set of gauntlets with 8 charges costs as much as two sets with 4 (minus the cost of the actual gauntlets)? Just to make sure I'm reading all this correctly.

[ILM]

So a set of gauntlets with 8 charges costs as much as two sets with 4 (minus the cost of the actual gauntlets)? Just to make sure I'm reading all this correctly.

Pretty much, if you're going strictly by custom item creation rules. But Crake has a point and your DM wouldn't be unjustified in thinking similar thoughts. Custom item creation is generally viewed as something that requires DM approval, otherwise you start having use-activated items of True Strike and all that...

[sleepyphoenixx]

An item with 5 charges/day costs the same as one with unlimited charges by those rules, so it doesn't make sense to pay for more charges/day if you follow them exactly.
As a DM i'd follow Crake's suggestion though, for the same reasons. Items with unlimited charges tend to have a negative effect on balance in my experience, unless the effect it really minor.

[ILM]

An item with 5 charges/day costs the same as one with unlimited charges by those rules, so it doesn't make sense to pay for more charges/day if you follow them exactly.
As a DM i'd follow Crake's suggestion though, for the same reasons. Items with unlimited charges tend to have a negative effect on balance in my experience, unless the effect it really minor.

Actually, an item with 5 charges/day costs the same as one with 50 charges*, and items with unlimited charges cost twice that amount. So an item with 10 charges/day costs the same as one with unlimited charges. Honestly, besides wealth-breaking combos, I think in most typical D&D situations having 10 charges per day is tantamount to having unlimited charges, so I'm not bothered.

* Technically that's true only for spell trigger items. Use-activated or command word items already have unlimited uses included in their formula, which is actually why spell trigger items are so much cheaper than command word items.

[ericgrau]

Everything is subject to DM approval but it would be reasonable to increase the cost in proportion to charges. It's highly unlikely to break anything unless the item was already broken and then you're simply magnifying existing brokenness. Changing it to at will or anything else however may sometimes break the system and so the DM would need to look at that more carefully. If an at will item is only useful during combat or under special circumstances then it's unlikely to break anything. But if it can do something useful every round for 8 hours a day, meaning 4800 times a day, that's often where shenanigans begin.

[Iron Angel]

Everything is subject to DM approval but it would be reasonable to increase the cost in proportion to charges. It's highly unlikely to break anything unless the item was already broken and then you're simply magnifying existing brokenness. Changing it to at will or anything else however may sometimes break the system and so the DM would need to look at that more carefully. If an at will item is only useful during combat or under special circumstances then it's unlikely to break anything. But if it can do something useful every round for 8 hours a day, meaning 4800 times a day, that's often where shenanigans begin.

Its storm gauntlets, just so I have a ranged attack option when we fight flying stuff.

[ericgrau]

Ya I didn't mean that the gauntlets might be broken. Go for it, add more uses a day.

I meant you could do the same with almost any item, with rare exceptions.

IMO at the cost of making it 20 charges and probably less (much more than 5, a little less than 4x5=20), it would be reasonable to make this particular item at will. ~20 or a little less because the most costly ability costs 4 charges and 5 uses a day is supposed to cost the same as at will. The worst you could do 4800 times a day would be to destroy objects, and you could do that better with an adamantine weapon.

Any change is subject to DM approval, but it seems more than reasonable to me.

The +1 weapon part is worth about 2,000 gp and the energy resistance 3,000 gp. So you'd probably only multiply 5,000 gp of the cost. So 15,604 gp for 8 charges. OTOH all the abilities seem under-costed, so it's hard to say if the +1 and energy resistance should cost less too. Maybe there's a group discount on abilities. There's a bit of guessing involved on the price here. You may need your DM to help you pick a price. Less than 20,604 gp for 8 charges though. Not sure how much less.

[Iron Angel]

So then, with all that in mind, you think the cost of 20 charges would be equivalent for At-Will? WIth only one set of spheres out at once, of course. That would get crazy.

[Telok]

The price of a Belt of Healing with ten charges is equal to the price of an at-will belt? DM discretion is advised.

[Barbarian Horde]

Buy the same item, and swap it out for the one with spent charges.

[Rubik]

The price of a Belt of Healing with ten charges is equal to the price of an at-will belt? DM discretion is advised.

And yet a wand of Lesser Vigor is in many ways just as good as the unlimited belt (in some ways better, in some ways worse) until you use the healing belt 50 whole times, AND it costs the same

[Iron Angel]

Buy the same item, and swap it out for the one with spent charges.

Well a second problem with that is I'm playing a warforged and I want to actually enchant my body.

[Rubik]

Well a second problem with that is I'm playing a warforged and I want to actually enchant my body.

Buy a pair of warforged mighty arms grafts. 1,000 gp per pair, and now you have a minimum of four arms. A single feat (Extra Item Space: Hands) will give you the ability to enhance multiple sets of hand slots. You can add on shoulders, arms, and rings if you really want to make the most of them.

[Jeff the Green]

Actually, an item with 5 charges/day costs the same as one with 50 charges*, and items with unlimited charges cost twice that amount. So an item with 10 charges/day costs the same as one with unlimited charges. Honestly, besides wealth-breaking combos, I think in most typical D&D situations having 10 charges per day is tantamount to having unlimited charges, so I'm not bothered.

* Technically that's true only for spell trigger items. Use-activated or command word items already have unlimited uses included in their formula, which is actually why spell trigger items are so much cheaper than command word items.

The problem with this analogy is that the charges in the DMG and charges in a number of MIC items (including the gauntlets) are not the same. The DMG assumes that adding a charge gets one additional use. The MIC items don't have that simple relationship.

I'm not saying that it's going to break anything, but it should probably be judged on a different basis.

[ericgrau]

So then, with all that in mind, you think the cost of 20 charges would be equivalent for At-Will? WIth only one set of spheres out at once, of course. That would get crazy.

Oh ya forgot about sphere abuse. Ya if limited to one set of spheres the at-will cost should be equal or less than the 20 charge cost. Because it's actually some average of a 20, 10 and 5 charge cost due to the other two abilities. But it is closer to 20 than 5 because that is probably a more expensive ability.

Actually limiting to 1 set of spheres means it's not as close to 20 because you can't spam it in combat. Maybe a 2 set of spheres limit would be more reasonable, and account for the fact that you'll need 2 move actions to move them so more than 2 sets would be unreasonable for anything except abuse. Ya, there's going to have to be a lot of DM involement on this one after all.

At least we know that the reasonable price for at-will is much less than 40k gold, if that helps... You may want to simple ask your DM which portion of the cost he thinks is the +1 and energy resistance and which portion is the spell abilities. Then double or triple the cost of the spell ability portion, get yourself 8 or 12 charges, and call it a day.

[Iron Angel]

MIC says Resistance to Energy 5 is 4000. Adding +1 to a weapon is 2000, or 1000 for armor. The masterwork spiked gauntlets are 604 according to the Storm Gauntlet entry in MIC.

Interestingly, this puts the gold cost of the item at 5000 just for the stats- The spellcasting bit casts NOTHING, as the gauntlets only require 5000 gp to make, and 5000 gp is all you need for +1 and Energy Resistance 5.

This doesn't really help me much. And our DM is relatively new, I'm not sure I want to make him do all the work of learning all this stuff while he's still coming to grips with everything else...

[Iron Angel]

As predicted, my DM was as lost as I was on the issue. I'll have to work out the value of each charge with him in more detail. We did come to the conclusion a single cast of Lightning Bolt cost 270 gp, so theres a good baseline to work from.

[ericgrau]

2/day lightning bolt costs about 10k gp by itself though, so there is some kind of discount in the item.

I think you and your DM should guess some proportion of the abilities that are in the spells and run with it. +1 melee weapons don't synergize well with the range attacks so it's mainly the 3k gp in energy resistance that makes up the other portion. The +1s and masterwork costs add a little more, but the item is discounted so maybe 7k gp for the spell abilities is a good guess. So 17,604 gp for 8 charges, 24,604 gp for 12 charges. Or you and your DM can pick a different number and move on. No need to lawyer it precisely.

[sleepyphoenixx]

2/day command word activated Lightning Bolt at CL9 is already 19440gp on its own by the custom item creation rules (3 x 9 x 1800 x 2,5). On the other hand you can do a lot better for 20k gp, so the discount is sensible.

Still, one of the pricing factors is that the charges are limited, so anything cheaper than 2x the listed price would be too cheap for my taste. I'd go anywhere from double the price for double the charges to 2,5x the price (as per the standard item stacking rules). Probably the cheaper option though, they're not all that impressive and there's quite a few other things you could spend that money on that would have more of an impact.

[Iron Angel]

We agreed on 7k per 4 additional charges, since its really just ~30 damage as a standard action, which is kind of paltry compared to the ~140 I can crank out with a charge or full attack. Like I said, its just to defend myself against things that fly so I'm not just standing around feeling useless.

[Telok]

And yet a wand of Lesser Vigor is in many ways just as good as the unlimited belt (in some ways better, in some ways worse) until you use the healing belt 50 whole times, AND it costs the same

For the standard 3/day Healing Belt you're right, but not when you're talking about adding charges to charge/day items.

A Lesser Vigor wand is 750 gp for 550 hp over 550 rounds with 50 standard actions. An at-will Belt of Healing is 2500 gp for 2d8 (average 9) per standard action by the '10 charges = at-will' suggestion. The belt is 2 hp less per action but 9 times faster for healing and cannot run out.

Your assertation of an unlimited belt would let you use three charges every standard action for 4d8 healing (average 18).

If I could get my DM to let at-will healing belts for 2500 gp be a thing then after 3rd level there'd never be another magic item healing method except looted potions and Heal scrolls. Neither Lesser Vigor nor Belts of Healing are really useful for combat healing (well, not after third or fourth level really), out of combat healing is where they matter so the unlimited charges and better speed of the belt is really worth much more than the wand is. Even the broken-at-first-level-spells magic item creation guidelines place at-will Cure Light Wounds at 2000 gp for little better than half the at-will belt healing. You can also compare the Ring of Regeneration at 1 hp per hour (or 1 non-lethal per five minutes) at 90,000 gp. The regrowing body parts doesn't come into play since the only time that matters in 3.5 is due to self mutilation from attempting to use the Eye or Hand of Vecna.

Total at-will healing for a low cost, one time, outlay isn't an assumption made in D&D and the game has interesting side effects if it happens before level ten or twelve. Remember that anything a PC character can do an NPC with the same levels and feats can do too.