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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default House rules for paladins falling

    So, the party has a lawful good paladin of Bahamut who often "just happens to have his head turned" while the rest of the party does questionable shenanigans. For example, the party was discussing how to get into a magically walled-off tunnel in the basement of a closed tavern in town. They decided that the only way was to burn the place down. The paladin responded by saying, "Ok, guys, I'll be over here, not watching the tavern, definitely don't *wink wink* burn the tavern down while I'm over here!" and then the arson was promptly committed, without any intervention from the paladin.

    While I know 4e doesn't touch on the concept of "fallen paladins" in order to include paladins of different alignments and deities, and the party's paladin was acting in order to maximize fun for himself and the party, I feel like there should be some sort of consequence for a paladin failing to uphold the ideals of his deity.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    While, by the rules, the paladin won't/can't lose any of his powers, the church and/or the deity can/will still get quite upset should they ever learn of his actions. Said church being in command of legions of paladins and other strongarms and majikers, and said god being, well, a god, with legions of whatever you want him to have. Either or both would likely send 'subtle reminders' to him, followed by enforcement squads should he fail to heed the reminders.
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    So 4e removes lots of the "gods check and ensure the personal morality of those that use their divine powers using near omniscience".

    Instead, we have "gods are barred from direct access to the middle kingdom by an ancient agreement with the primal spirits". They can only act here through intermediaries (mortals with divine power source), and through summoned agents (like angels).

    When a mortal is invested with divine power, the god cannot take it back. This means that granting such power to a mortal has consequences to the church and the god. No takebacks.

    If a Paladin starts acting against the will of the church, they can make enemies of the church. If they act against the will of the god, they can make enemies of the god.

    They do not, however, simply get their powers snatched away from them.

    This leads to wonderful moral ambiguity -- an entire church of a god could fall away and become corrupt, passing down the divine power they have effectively stolen from generation to generation (imbued in divine artifacts, which they use to invest new acolytes into the mysteries). And the god cannot directly do anything about it, other than maybe setting up a new church and investing more power in different mortals (which may run into problems with the primal spirits), or asking help from other gods & churches.

    Similarly, the church cannot say "well, the paladin still has his powers, I guess he's doing the will of the god". They have to either decide for themselves, or use explicit magic to check (and there isn't much such magic).

    ---

    So, first, someone would have to notice it happening.

    Second, they might council the Paladin to consider what they are doing.

    Third, they might demand the Paladin return to the head church to explain their actions, then impose atonement and probation.

    Forth, they might engage in open warfare against the Paladin.

    Now, if you don't want to go through all this, you could hand the Paladin a holy sword with a spirit of a fellow crusader in it -- an intelligent magic item.

    Then have that item become increasingly aghast at what the Paladin is doing. Council the Paladin to atone and change their ways, and if/when that fails attempt to get a hold of members of the Church to let them know they have a fallen Paladin on their hands.

    ---

    For a completely different approach, start having some fun. As noted above, the Divine power invested into a Paladin cannot be revoked -- so other powerful beings would love to get their hands on the servant and bend them to their will.

    Have dark beings offer the party power.

    This can start with a dream sequence, where some shadowy being in a somewhat icky way offers advice. At later times, boons arrive from strange sources.

    One of the fun ways I have seen this done is via Lloth. Spiders come to the party's aid in a number of situations. Blessings of shadow and darkness are offered, free of charge, to help them with their problems. Eventually Lloth explains how the entire schism with Corellion was because of a misunderstanding, and she was driven underground by the vanity and jealousy of other gods.

    Seduce the party with the dark side, including the Paladin. Offer power, in exchange for a bit of a smudge. Then offer more.

    Have the Paladin willingly fall.

    Then, introduce the sword.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Perhaps the god can't take away the powers of the paladin but that can't stop him from sending an army of summoned angels after him. Or alternatively you could just say he is now a fighter and say he now has to go on a quest or else forever lose them. Also I doubt both the church and metallic dragons would be very happy with this person. You could even give him an irremovable mark of justice showing his lack of faithfulness to his god.
    Last edited by MKV; 2014-12-10 at 04:13 PM.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    This reminds me of a 4e story I read about a paladin getting his order angry. If I remember correctly, it went like this:

    The paladin (we'll just call him "Paladin") was really failing at the whole valor thing. He finally attracted attention from his churchmates when he raped a woman, and I think he even silenced her about it with "no one will believe you" threats. The DM mentioned told Paladin that he could feel the heavens frowning upon him.
    When the party arrived back in town, a couple of paladins from Paladin's faith showed up. They wanted him to go back to their church with them, and he agreed to do so the next day. Then he had the rogue rob and murder them in the night.
    Again, he felt some divine disapproval.

    The party left town, and after some travel they were confronted by some paladins, clerics, and a couple of angels, who demanded Paladin's surrender. Paladin convinced his group to fight, and they managed to kill the arresting party.
    Once more, Paladin felt divine anger.

    Paladin's god took physical form and challenged Paladin to single combat. They dueled, and Paladin was subdued and at his god's mercy. His god read him the riot act for all his wrongdoings, and Paladin.... got up and ran during the lecture.
    The god was even more infuriated by this, and turned Paladin into a practice dummy. He then affixed a sign to the dummy, which read:
    "Those who don't learn, teach!"

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Yakk, Janus, those are both glorious.

    If the party is benefiting from his actions, I'd be inclined to let him continue. But don't let him use LG as a strength. "Yeah, you're a paladin, but we saw what you let them do. Your word is worthless."

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Thanks Akodo Makama, MKV and Yakk, I'll definitely take those into consideration.
    Janus, that is a wonderful story, and I'll keep it in mind if my paladin ever strays too far from his god, along with Tengu's suggestion.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    If one is using the Essentials range - maybe "falling" allows one to swap appropriate class features?

    From "Paladin of Honor" to "Blackguard of Fury/Tyranny" might work, for example.
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    I have noticed that a lot of the answer in the thread are variation of "by RAW, paladins in 4E don't Fall". Which is fair enough, and true. Nevertheless, if you do want to run a campaign in which paladins do Fall, I think there is a way. Building on what hamishspence says, but making it more gradual: take a look at the character sheet for the Paladin, and identify the powers that are most divine-like, and mess with them. For example, pick one of: give a -1 to hit when used; the encounter power takes two short breaks to restore; the daily requires a HS to use; etc. Whatever you choose, it comes accompanied by clear signs from their god that he/she/it is unhappy about their actions, but not so much the character is rendered unusable, or even excessively weak.

    If he continues to turn a blind eye, and does finally Fall, then sure, let him know he is a blackguard (and give him a chance to retrain any feats that are now useless or counterproductive).

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    "One at a time, rather than all at once" for class feature swaps and power swaps - does seem like a good idea to me.
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "One at a time, rather than all at once" for class feature swaps and power swaps - does seem like a good idea to me.
    I'll trust your judgement on this. All I know about blackguards is that they are more striker than defender, so I'm not sure how easy it is to convert from one to the other without crippling a character in the process. A paladin Falling is a perfectly acceptable (if a tad cliched) character development, and a player shouldn't be penalised for it excessively (a bit of penalising, I feel, is good for the added RP - similar to the party as a whole being attacked by guards and being forced to fight a battle and expend resources that would otherwise be kept). I suppose you could swap paladin powers for fighter powers, and when the character is effectively a warrior, then start swapping back to blackguard-friendly powers.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I'll trust your judgement on this. All I know about blackguards is that they are more striker than defender
    Blackguards are more striker than defender in the same sense that cavaliers are more defender than controller.

    They're terrible at both things, but meant for one of them, so they're passable at it in games where no one cares one lick for anything approaching optimization and where the party never leaves heroic.

    Normal Paladins are better at both defending and striking, by a huge margin.

    That said, to the OP, I'd caution against re-introducing falling in 4e as a mechanical construct - but as a plot, it's pretty compelling, regardless of where the party takes it.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Instead of turning your Paladin into a blackguard (which I and many others see as a bad class), I had another idea that might work.

    If they're a Cha based Paladin, the falling could result in them switching over to a Str based build. You'd just swap the two numbers, let them pick new powers, and refluff. We used to do that kinda junk all of the time back in my game. Avenger wants to be a Paladin? He goes through an ordeal and comes out wiser and with a stronger force of will then before.

    Getting shunned by your god could potentially result in an angsty lifting montage, I can see this working.

    However if he's already Str based, or even a Baladin, then this is a no go I guess. Overall I like how 4E doesn't enforce falling and would follow Yakk's advice if I ran into this, but if he *must* have a radical change then this might be a way to resolve it.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    maybe you should see if you can get the paladan's player to keep to the code a bit more, and instead encourage the party to trick him.

    for example, i was playing a paladin a year or so ago, and we had recently just cleared a room, the party wanted to throw a corpse at a door to see if it was trapped, but as a paladin i was against it. so somehow they tricked him to looking somewhere else, telling him to guard the door while they picked the lock or something, the moment his back was turned, WHAM! corpse thrown at door. The justificaition? "He must have still been alive! he just got up and ran for the door!"
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    A way that I might handle it would involve mostly changing the fluff of the powers rather than the powers themselves, possibly making some of them deal necrotic damage instead, if they've fallen really far, because their deity no longer wishes to act as patron, and instead effectively sells their contract. Thus their powers aren't lost, but draw from a different source, more fitting of their actions. Or even in character, if they don't really conform to their patron deity, they could eventually change and serve a different deity instead, even another good one, such as choosing to serve someone with less strict rules, perhaps Pelor or Avandra, if they wish to remain good nonetheless.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Another extreme would be the simultaneous fall of their deity. Pelor the Burning Hate would make a fantastic campaign hook. Would he remain chaotic neutral in the face of his good deity turning evil, fall alongside his lord, or attempt to pull his master back to the side of good?

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    I don't see what's wrong with them simply taking 1d10 damage per two squares, with an acrobatics check... Ha!
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I don't see what's wrong with them simply taking 1d10 damage per two squares, with an acrobatics check... Ha!
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I don't see what's wrong with them simply taking 1d10 damage per two squares, with an acrobatics check... Ha!
    That's why our Paladin has a Ring of Feather Fall. Which precipitated the following events two sessions ago:

    DM: The Ice Archons are climbing up to your position. At 100 feet up, they launch a hail storm at you (we were 200 feet up). A few minor hits, one complete miss.

    Everyone but the Paladin- jumps into the empty Handy Haversack.

    When the Ice Archons are 150 feet up- Paladin makes a running jump, falling the 200 feet and landing.

    Paladin and the Ranger inside the Handy Haversack swap places.

    Ranger: uses Bridle of Conjuration to conjure a horse, swings up onto horse with Handy Haversack and gallops away.

    (An hour or so later, after the horse had cleared well past all enemies, everyone gets out of the Haversack. Wizard carries out Phantom Steed, rolling Critical Horse for really fast flying horses, and we continue on our way).

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Naw, that doesn't work. In 4e, Paladin's can't fall.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by masteraleph View Post
    That's why our Paladin has a Ring of Feather Fall. Which precipitated the following events two sessions ago:

    DM: The Ice Archons are climbing up to your position. At 100 feet up, they launch a hail storm at you (we were 200 feet up). A few minor hits, one complete miss.

    Everyone but the Paladin- jumps into the empty Handy Haversack.

    When the Ice Archons are 150 feet up- Paladin makes a running jump, falling the 200 feet and landing.

    Paladin and the Ranger inside the Handy Haversack swap places.

    Ranger: uses Bridle of Conjuration to conjure a horse, swings up onto horse with Handy Haversack and gallops away.

    (An hour or so later, after the horse had cleared well past all enemies, everyone gets out of the Haversack. Wizard carries out Phantom Steed, rolling Critical Horse for really fast flying horses, and we continue on our way).
    This is fantastic. Adding it to my Big Book of D&D stories. Also, his god falling with him is an interesting idea. I will probably encourage the party to try and trick him more.

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. The paladin's turning a blind eye so the rest of the party can have fun, but still playing a paladin so that he can have fun, right? Ultimately, everyone's having fun? Then really, who cares? If you make the paladin fall because the rest of the party are being murder hobos, it's gonna look like you're picking on him simply for playing the class that he wants to play.
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9001 View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. The paladin's turning a blind eye so the rest of the party can have fun, but still playing a paladin so that he can have fun, right? Ultimately, everyone's having fun? Then really, who cares? If you make the paladin fall because the rest of the party are being murder hobos, it's gonna look like you're picking on him simply for playing the class that he wants to play.
    Which was what I was thinking about Paladin Falling - ultimately, behind the Paladin, there's a player who's just trying to have fun with his not-as-restricted friends.

    If anything, it's probably a good idea for the DM to talk it out with the player before sending the church after him, or turning him into a blackguard.
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Speak to him OOC. Don't mechanically enforce anything, but tell him he's heading down that path and ask him for ideas. With many players you'll get a lot.
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9001 View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. The paladin's turning a blind eye so the rest of the party can have fun, but still playing a paladin so that he can have fun, right? Ultimately, everyone's having fun? Then really, who cares? If you make the paladin fall because the rest of the party are being murder hobos, it's gonna look like you're picking on him simply for playing the class that he wants to play.
    This does highlight a frequent problem I've had in games - a paladin (LG or otherwise) in a game with a thief (er...rogue) - rogues are pretty common in adventuring parties, and the paladin/rogue dynamic is well established. Either one character or the other has to give some ground on the stereotypes or there will be the inevitable player-on-player, "be a good hero"/"don't tell me what to do" conflict.

    In my current game, I am the paladin. The rogue and I have disagreements (particularly as comes to prisoners and their dispositions after interrogation), but we've both played enough to kind of skirt the heart of the issue and keep the party dynamic functional.

    I'd like to ask (without malice or bad intent) - would you be as focused on the issue if it were an LG Fighter turning the blind eye? If the answer is yes, consider the tenets of the god in question and if there are legitimate rationales by which non-perfect-paladin actions are perfectly appropriate (my paladin, also a follower of The Great Dragon, has a less than politic response to dragonborn followers of an evil dragon...and can be violently opposed to their existence...but it fits the idiom and, thanks to Player/DM conversation, is understood as appropriate).

    In this case...was the entry into the tavern basement for strictly material gain or are they investigating a possible stronghold of an evilbad cult/guild of assassins/slave lords? It might make a big difference in the long run.

    Aside: If the party really is the murderhobo type, it might behoove you and the paladin player to get together and chat about options...the player almost certainly doesn't want to be cast in the role of stick in the mud...so it might be necessary to limit situations in which he'll have to be that stick in the mud, or provide an opportunity to swap characters.
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    ...the player almost certainly doesn't want to be cast in the role of stick in the mud...so it might be necessary to limit situations in which he'll have to be that stick in the mud, or provide an opportunity to swap characters.
    Alternately, don't force a paladin to play the role of a lawful goodie twoshoes party policeman stick in the mud. 4e tried very hard to kill that terrible trope (or at least make it but one of many options).

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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Alternately, don't force a paladin to play the role of a lawful goodie twoshoes party policeman stick in the mud. 4e tried very hard to kill that terrible trope (or at least make it but one of many options).
    If you're a Paladin of Bahamut (as in the OP), it's still your default status.

    Here's some ideas for stiff (but possibly survivable) penalties:
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    Fallen Paladin
    Trigger: You severely breach your deity's code of conduct, or your cowardice brings ridicule to the god's name.

    Effect: Your Divine Challenge, Divine Sanction, and Paladin Implement powers deal half damage. You cannot use Channel Divinity, Lay on Hands, Ardent Vow, or Touch of Virtue. You cannot benefit from properties or powers of magic Holy Symbols of your deity. Your Paladin Utility and Weapon Attack powers cannot cause you or your allies to recover HP or gain bonuses to defenses or attack or damage rolls.

    Fallen Cavalier
    Trigger: You willingly act in gross opposition to your Virtue (i.e. run when Valor calls for you to stand strong, or scorn a Sacrifice that you know would have saved another).

    Effect: You lose the benefits of your Virtue. In addition, your Righteous Radiance and Paladin Implement powers deal half damage, Holy Smite does not daze your target, and Righteous Shield does not give you a bonus to attack rolls. You cannot benefit from properties or powers of magic Holy Symbols of your deity. Your Paladin Utility and Weapon Attack powers cannot cause you or your allies to recover HP or gain bonuses to defenses or attack or damage rolls.

    That said, if falling becomes an issue for the Paladin, I think it should also be something for the Wizard, the Cleric, the Fighter, etc., though only those channeling divine power would really "fall from grace". The "fall" condition would have to be relevant to the character, and generally have the same theme: rejecting the power source (i.e. shunning what you've learned of magic as a Wizard, disobeying some term of a Warlock's pact, etc.), and have some kind of atonement/redemption path in mind (and agreed upon by the player and DM) OOC, so the "fall" is not simply depowering the character.
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    Default Re: House rules for paladins falling

    I've never really thought of paladin Falling as a real thing, more of a threat because paladins are supposed to follow a strict code.

    What is the purpose of paladin Falling, if it were actually a mechanic? What does a player want to do with a Fallen paladin? Does the player not want to follow the code as strictly anymore, and decides to give up some powers for greater RP freedom?
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