blue goblin

[balegar]

Would it make LA+1 worth it if blue goblins had telepathy 100 feet?

[Extra Anchovies]

Qualifies them for Mindsight, so I'd say so. But only if buyoff is allowed.

[atemu1234]

Telepathy is a surprisingly niche and not very useful ability. I'd say yeah, but a weak LA +1. If you don't allow buyoff, give them a 1/day SLA or PLA of first level.

[balegar]

Telepathy is a surprisingly niche and not very useful ability. I'd say yeah, but a weak LA +1. If you don't allow buyoff, give them a 1/day SLA or PLA of first level.

Yeah I like that idea, I like using them as npc's when I dm because of their flavor but they got shafted by wotc. So I usually just ignore their LA.

[balegar]

I guess it don't really matter since LA isn't meant for npc's anyway.

[PsyBomb]

Is it language-dependent? Makes a difference to me, since the issue crops up a lot in games I'm in

[balegar]

I don't usually bother with that, so it wouldn't be language dependent.

[Solaris]

Qualifies them for Mindsight, so I'd say so. But only if buyoff is allowed.

Be careful with using this sort of logic to justify a level adjustment or penalty. Is it worth a level adjustment if the blue doesn't take Mindsight?

[A_S]

Be careful with using this sort of logic to justify a level adjustment or penalty. Is it worth a level adjustment if the blue doesn't take Mindsight?

Why be careful about this kind of reasoning? Being able to qualify for stuff is part of the benefits of any given ability; I don't see any reason why "qualifies you for Mindsight" shouldn't be one of the benefits considered when deciding how good Telepathy is as an ability.

There's another conversation to be had about the fact that qualifying for Mindsight is the best thing about Telepathy, and whether that means Telepathy should come with more built-in benefits, and/or whether Mindsight is overpowered as a feat. But that's independent of any analysis of how much LA it's worth to get Telepathy as a racial feature.

[Psyren]

You can also use the PF version, which has no LA.

[Solaris]

Why be careful about this kind of reasoning? Being able to qualify for stuff is part of the benefits of any given ability; I don't see any reason why "qualifies you for Mindsight" shouldn't be one of the benefits considered when deciding how good Telepathy is as an ability.

There's another conversation to be had about the fact that qualifying for Mindsight is the best thing about Telepathy, and whether that means Telepathy should come with more built-in benefits, and/or whether Mindsight is overpowered as a feat. But that's independent of any analysis of how much LA it's worth to get Telepathy as a racial feature.

No, being able to qualify for stuff is a characteristic of the stuff, not of the ability. Telepathy in and of itself does not grant Mindsight. The fact that Mindsight requires telepathy has no bearing on the game balance intrinsic to telepathy. Any balance issues are a problem with Mindsight, not with telepathy.

Otherwise, Tattooed Monk would be assessed for balance based on Pun-Pun.

[Red Fel]

Telepathy says that it allows you to communicate with any creature - and any number of creatures - within range that has a language. It does not say that it is language dependent, and I would rule that it isn't. (Sources: 3.5 and PF.) In effect, it's like having a version of permanent Tongues or Psionic Tongues - as long as the target as a language, you can talk to them.

Given that Tongues is a very valuable ability to have, and a 2nd-level spell or power, and this is like having it always-on or as an SLA/PLA, I'd argue that the +1 LA is reasonable if buyoff is involved. (Note that Telepathy does not explicitly say whether the conversation is one- or two-way. If it's only one-way, the LA is a bit less reasonable.)

[balegar]

I've never considered the ambiguity of "communicate", I've always just assumed it was two-way. Iirc in the dnd literature it's used two-way, I'm particularly remembering the Baerne house illithid.

[A_S]

No, being able to qualify for stuff is a characteristic of the stuff, not of the ability. Telepathy in and of itself does not grant Mindsight. The fact that Mindsight requires telepathy has no bearing on the game balance intrinsic to telepathy. Any balance issues are a problem with Mindsight, not with telepathy.

Otherwise, Tattooed Monk would be assessed for balance based on Pun-Pun.

I totally disagree. The reason the quality of Tattooed Monk isn't assessed based on Pun-Pun is because nobody allows Pun-Pun to exist in their games, so the fact that Tattooed Monk's abilities are strong when Pun-Pun has them is irrelevant for balance at most tables. If Tattooed Monk allowed for strong shenanigans that were going to actually fly at a table, the strength of those shenanigans would be considered when estimating the quality of Tattooed Monk.

Examples of this sort of reasoning:

• The Mindbender 1 dip is widely considered to be strong, even though it's only strong because it allows you to take Mindsight.
• Unusual types (Outsider, Dragon, etc.) are considered to be advantageous, even though they're mostly only good because they let you Alter Self into better forms (ignoring edge cases where you desperately need the martial weapon proficiency from Outsider).
• Cloud of Knives is thought of as a good spell, even though it's really only useful as a carrier for precision damage or Fell Drain.
• The fact that you can use the Splitting enchantment is what makes Precise Shot a non-terrible feat.

To me, it seems absurd not to consider "what the thing lets you do" when trying to asses "how good the thing is." It would never have occurred to me not to do so. Is that not a widely held intuition?