On the subject of Tarquin.

[Darth Paul]

The same reason Aragon's crowning was shown in the story, the freeing of the Shire was shown in the story, and Frodo's sailing off into the sunset was shown. Because it was explained that it was of great importance to one of the main characters, and therefore it is relevant to the story, regardless of its irrelevancy to the main plot.

Truthfully, LotR is not the best book to compare OOTS with, because there are two different principles at work.

LotR actually has only two main characters. [covers ears to damp out screams of outrage] By which I mean, Frodo and Sam are the only 2 characters we follow from (almost) the very beginning to (almost) the very end. It starts with Frodo, introduces Sam shortly after, and the duo are together for pretty much the entire story. Other characters- extremely important and memorable characters, very wonderful characters, mostly more powerful than our two main protagonists- drop in to the story and join the quest, but it is almost exclusively seen through the eyes of Frodo and Sam or else Merry and Pippin, the other hobbits. But since Frodo and Sam take up the main quest, they are the "most important" characters- without them, the Ring doesn't get to Mount Doom.

After Mount Doom, the other characters drop out again, one by one, until only hobbits are left. At the end, Frodo sails away, and the last character we see is Sam, the remaining main character. (I have condensed this a lot to avoid re-writing the books; my point remains what it is.)

OOTS is an ensemble piece all the way through. The very first time we meet the Order, they are all together. Yes, they are on Roy's quest, but they are on it as a group. Sooner or later, everything has come back to the twin quests to defeat Xykon and protect the Gates. When those are over, the Order can finally go their separate ways and it really could be the end of the story. We won't see V and Inkyrius having a heartfelt conversation, or Tarquin's demise, we probably won't see Elan and Haley's wedding (unless that's Elan's happy ending); unless these individual events are somehow important to the story of the Order as a whole. The ensemble is what matters.

[littlebum2002]

Truthfully, LotR is not the best book to compare OOTS with, because there are two different principles at work.

LotR actually has only two main characters. [covers ears to damp out screams of outrage] By which I mean, Frodo and Sam are the only 2 characters we follow from (almost) the very beginning to (almost) the very end. It starts with Frodo, introduces Sam shortly after, and the duo are together for pretty much the entire story. Other characters- extremely important and memorable characters, very wonderful characters, mostly more powerful than our two main protagonists- drop in to the story and join the quest, but it is almost exclusively seen through the eyes of Frodo and Sam or else Merry and Pippin, the other hobbits. But since Frodo and Sam take up the main quest, they are the "most important" characters- without them, the Ring doesn't get to Mount Doom.

After Mount Doom, the other characters drop out again, one by one, until only hobbits are left. At the end, Frodo sails away, and the last character we see is Sam, the remaining main character. (I have condensed this a lot to avoid re-writing the books; my point remains what it is.)

OOTS is an ensemble piece all the way through. The very first time we meet the Order, they are all together. Yes, they are on Roy's quest, but they are on it as a group. Sooner or later, everything has come back to the twin quests to defeat Xykon and protect the Gates. When those are over, the Order can finally go their separate ways and it really could be the end of the story. We won't see V and Inkyrius having a heartfelt conversation, or Tarquin's demise, we probably won't see Elan and Haley's wedding (unless that's Elan's happy ending); unless these individual events are somehow important to the story of the Order as a whole. The ensemble is what matters.

Except that Roy and Elan have both agreed not to break up the ensemble until after they defeat Tarquin. You know Haley will join them, which probably means V will, too. HPoH and Belkar are both crap shoots. (If Durkon is alive again by then, you know darn well he'd follow Roy to defeat an evil dictator)

So your point is both entirely true and completely supports my argument. After all Tarquin put the Order through, you honestly think they'll just let him slide, and split up without doing anything about it? Wow.



I mean I really am amazed that you guys honestly think that Rich would spend dozens of comics throughout an entire book talking about how Elan will beat Tarquin, and have Elan agree that not defeating him before the story ends would be foolish, and have two of the main characters pledge to destroy him, and then not show it? Wow, I'm just blown away by this. How many hints does he have to give you? Does he have to write it in 200 foot tall flaming letters or something? I'm sure I can research a spell that will do just that if you require it.

[Jasdoif]

I mean I really am amazed that you guys honestly think that Rich would spend dozens of comics throughout an entire book talking about how Elan will beat Tarquin, and have Elan agree that not defeating him before the story ends would be foolish, and have two of the main characters pledge to destroy him, and then not show it? Wow, I'm just blown away by this. How many hints does he have to give you? Does he have to write it in 200 foot tall flaming letters or something? I'm sure I can research a spell that will do just that if you require it.

I've discovered that assuming the Giant is going to do what you expect, in the precise way you expect, is a highly effective way to be surprised

[littlebum2002]

Really? The only two "twists" I can think of in the story so far are V killing the Draketooths (which was guessed by a fair number of people in the forums) and the Deus ex Mechane saving the day. I think so far he has established a pretty set routine: he drops hints about something, gets you questioning what is going on behind the scenes, then reveals it during a climax. Even both of the above fit that routine pretty well, which is why people guessed them.

I can't think of one time Rich has dropped hints about doing something, had everyone guess, then just never mentioned it again. Except, of course, for the 3 I have mentioned so far, all of which seem "obvious" to me (and many others in this forum) that they will be solved.

Obviously, he could surprise us and never answer the puzzles of Haley's comment, or the MitD, or Ian's note. But it would be very out of character for him.

[Keltest]

Really? The only two "twists" I can think of in the story so far are V killing the Draketooths (which was guessed by a fair number of people in the forums) and the Deus ex Mechane saving the day. I think so far he has established a pretty set routine: he drops hints about something, gets you questioning what is going on behind the scenes, then reveals it during a climax. Even both of the above fit that routine pretty well, which is why people guessed them.

I can't think of one time Rich has dropped hints about doing something, had everyone guess, then just never mentioned it again. Except, of course, for the 3 I have mentioned so far, all of which seem "obvious" to me (and many others in this forum) that they will be solved.

Obviously, he could surprise us and never answer the puzzles of Haley's comment, or the MitD, or Ian's note. But it would be very out of character for him.

Well for starters, the MITD has come up again, quite frequently. Furthermore there are other examples of hint-dropping, such as for Belkar's impending demise, or his potential character development, that are recurring, compared to the one off mentions of Elan's plan or Haley's comment.

[goodpeople25]

Really? The only two "twists" I can think of in the story so far are V killing the Draketooths (which was guessed by a fair number of people in the forums) and the Deus ex Mechane saving the day. I think so far he has established a pretty set routine: he drops hints about something, gets you questioning what is going on behind the scenes, then reveals it during a climax. Even both of the above fit that routine pretty well, which is why people guessed them.

I can't think of one time Rich has dropped hints about doing something, had everyone guess, then just never mentioned it again. Except, of course, for the 3 I have mentioned so far, all of which seem "obvious" to me (and many others in this forum) that they will be solved.

Obviously, he could surprise us and never answer the puzzles of Haley's comment, or the MitD, or Ian's note. But it would be very out of character for him.

just a clarification on your argument are you trying to say that tauquin has to me taken out in general or taken out by elan only cause i agree taurquins going to be taken out, but to me the giant seems to be foreshadowing tarquin to be taken down by side characters or in the least in a few panels at the end given taurquins view of the narrative it seems fitting to me at least

also on elans charecter arc I don't think elan taking out taurquin personally is necessary as part of his arc is not letting family rule his life.

thank you

[littlebum2002]

Well for starters, the MITD has come up again, quite frequently. Furthermore there are other examples of hint-dropping, such as for Belkar's impending demise, or his potential character development, that are recurring, compared to the one off mentions of Elan's plan or Haley's comment

Tarquin's defeat was mentioned numerous times throughout the last book, and you have Elan's comment after the illusion, and you have Roy and Elan's pledge, and you have Ian's note. That's 3 strong clues and numerous other minor ones. If you can't be convinced that Rich is going to solve a puzzle after giving 3 pretty heavy-handed clues, I don't know what will.

I mean you literally have a character realizing his world was fake because of how "weird" it was that they didn't defeat Tarquin before the story was over, and you think it would be perfectly normal if they didn't defeat Tarquin before the story is over?



(and an example of a one-off clue that was never mentioned again but yet came to fruition? Elan and Durkon's plan. Oh, and Familicide striking Tarquin's wife. Oh, and the silhouette of Miko after the 1st book. Oh, and Z's scrying eye. Oh, and

Spoiler: Spoiler from Dont Split The Party

Show

The underwater Black Dragon, which Rich decided not to put in the online comic because he didn't want the puzzle to be so easy

just a clarification on your argument are you trying to say that tauquin has to me taken out in general or taken out by elan only cause i agree taurquins going to be taken out, but to me the giant seems to be foreshadowing tarquin to be taken down by side characters or in the least in a few panels at the end given taurquins view of the narrative it seems fitting to me at least

also on elans charecter arc I don't think elan taking out taurquin personally is necessary as part of his arc is not letting family rule his life.

thank you

I think Tarquin will be defeated in the last book. By whom? I have no clue. I do agree though that it appears to be leading up to Elan making it as un-cool of a defeat as possible, but beyond that I'm in the dark. I've never once predicted a plot point (oh, wait, I did with Uncle Geoff but that was obvious), I can only predict of one will happen or not. And I'm fairly certain we'll see Tarquin get defeated and see what Haley was trying to say and what Roy said to his Archon.

There would just be no reason for Rich to have mentioned these things if he's not going to follow up on them.

[goodpeople25]

Tarquin's defeat was mentioned numerous times throughout the last book, and you have Elan's comment after the illusion, and you have Roy and Elan's pledge, and you have Ian's note. That's 3 strong clues and numerous other minor ones. If you can't be convinced that Rich is going to solve a puzzle after giving 3 pretty heavy-handed clues, I don't know what will.

I mean you literally have a character remarking how "weird" it was that they didn't defeat Tarquin before the story was over, and you still don't realize that he's trying to drill that point straight to your brain?



(and an example of a one-off clue that was never mentioned again but yet came to fruition? Elan and Durkon's plan. Oh, and Familicide striking Tarquin's wife. Oh, and the silhouette of Miko after the 1st book. Oh, and Z's scrying eye. Oh, and

Spoiler: Spoiler from Dont Split The Party

Show

The underwater Black Dragon, which Rich decided not to put in the online comic because he didn't want the puzzle to be so easy

I think Tarquin will be defeated in the last book. By whom? I have no clue. I do agree though that it appears to be leading up to Elan making it as un-cool of a defeat as possible, but beyond that I'm in the dark. I've never once predicted a plot point (oh, wait, I did with Uncle Geoff but that was obvious), I can only predict of one will happen or not. And I'm fairly certain we'll see Tarquin get defeated and see what Haley was trying to say and what Roy said to his Archon.

There would just be no reason for Rich to have mentioned these things if he's not going to follow up on them.

Ok i just lost track of your argument so thank you i agree on the follow ups you metioned well exept for the haley thing i'm on the fence on that but more for the fact that it might be confusing cause of the cryptogram thing but yes i agree on the foreshadowing point

[Keltest]

Tarquin's defeat was mentioned numerous times throughout the last book, and you have Elan's comment after the illusion, and you have Roy and Elan's pledge, and you have Ian's note. That's 3 strong clues and numerous other minor ones. If you can't be convinced that Rich is going to solve a puzzle after giving 3 pretty heavy-handed clues, I don't know what will.

I mean you literally have a character realizing his world was fake because of how "weird" it was that they didn't defeat Tarquin before the story was over, and you think it would be perfectly normal if they didn't defeat Tarquin before the story is over?



(and an example of a one-off clue that was never mentioned again but yet came to fruition? Elan and Durkon's plan. Oh, and Familicide striking Tarquin's wife. Oh, and the silhouette of Miko after the 1st book. Oh, and Z's scrying eye. Oh, and

Spoiler: Spoiler from Dont Split The Party

Show

The underwater Black Dragon, which Rich decided not to put in the online comic because he didn't want the puzzle to be so easy

I think Tarquin will be defeated in the last book. By whom? I have no clue. I do agree though that it appears to be leading up to Elan making it as un-cool of a defeat as possible, but beyond that I'm in the dark. I've never once predicted a plot point (oh, wait, I did with Uncle Geoff but that was obvious), I can only predict of one will happen or not. And I'm fairly certain we'll see Tarquin get defeated and see what Haley was trying to say and what Roy said to his Archon.

There would just be no reason for Rich to have mentioned these things if he's not going to follow up on them.

Im pretty sure youre misreading that scene. What Elan thought strange wasn't that they hadn't dealt with Tarquin by the end of the story, its that they were sitting around, doing nothing at all, while Tarquin is still doing his evil things with the empire. The fact that it was after the story was done had nothing to do with it, except that they didn't seem to be getting on with their lives.

[Jasdoif]

And I'm fairly certain we'll see Tarquin get defeated

Why do you think we're going to see it? The empires crumbling due to, let's say...a side effect of the rift/Snarl from the destruction of Girard's gate, destabilizing the Empire of Sweat enough that Tarquin has limited backup when Elan's plan (given to Ian) goes into effect....Could be done by showing triggering events without Tarquin ever showing up on-panel again, and explained to Elan by either the elves or the Azurites.

If Elan's goal is for Tarquin to lose as un-cool-y as possible...him collapsing alongside the scheme he spent years building, off-panel, only to be mentioned after the fact as a sidenote by a third party? Sounds like a victory for Elan to me.

[veti]

I think Tarquin will be taken down within the scope of the strip - by which I mean, by the time of the last strip we'll know fairly definitively how he and his party ended - but very likely off-panel and by minor characters, which would be fitting. (And would hugely upset Tarquin, which is good.)

I'm wondering if the Giant's sense of narrative fulfilment also requires that he do something about the ongoing political mess that is the Western Continent, as well, because that seems like a much bigger challenge. Maybe the rewriting of reality in the endgame will make the whole thing moot.

[littlebum2002]

Im pretty sure youre misreading that scene. What Elan thought strange wasn't that they hadn't dealt with Tarquin by the end of the story, its that they were sitting around, doing nothing at all, while Tarquin is still doing his evil things with the empire. The fact that it was after the story was done had nothing to do with it, except that they didn't seem to be getting on with their lives.

But as far as a fictional universe is concerned, it ceases to exist when the last page is written. So "Tarquin not being defeated by the end of the last strip" is equal to "Tarquin isn't defeated". If it isn't mentioned to us, the readers, then it effectively didn't happen. And since we empathize with Elan, and we know how important it is to him, then it should be important to us as well, and therefore not doing it would be a huge mistake.

Why do you think we're going to see it? The empires crumbling due to, let's say...a side effect of the rift/Snarl from the destruction of Girard's gate, destabilizing the Empire of Sweat enough that Tarquin has limited backup when Elan's plan (given to Ian) goes into effect....Could be done by showing triggering events without Tarquin ever showing up on-panel again, and explained to Elan by either the elves or the Azurites.

If Elan's goal is for Tarquin to lose as un-cool-y as possible...him collapsing alongside the scheme he spent years building, off-panel, only to be mentioned after the fact as a sidenote by a third party? Sounds like a victory for Elan to me.

I guess instead of saying "see it" I should say "know it happens". While I do believe there will be a story arc after Xykon is defeated of Elan, Roy, Ian, Haley and whoever else teaming up to somehow defeat Tarquin, you make a very interesting point. Showng a handful of panels saying "Oh Yeah, Tarquin got defeated in a totally un-dramatic way" would be a great meta-joke, since it would be un-dramamtic both in-universe and to us as well.

I think Tarquin will be taken down within the scope of the strip - by which I mean, by the time of the last strip we'll know fairly definitively how he and his party ended - but very likely off-panel and by minor characters, which would be fitting. (And would hugely upset Tarquin, which is good.)

I'm wondering if the Giant's sense of narrative fulfilment also requires that he do something about the ongoing political mess that is the Western Continent, as well, because that seems like a much bigger challenge. Maybe the rewriting of reality in the endgame will make the whole thing moot.

See above. That would be an interesting way to solve the issue.

The point is, though, is not how it is solved, but that it is solved. It would be really odd for Rich to beat us over the head with three substantial clues hinting that Tarquin will be defeated in this story and then not do it.