Classic WoD character help

[fishyfishyfishy]

A friend of mine is going to be running an Old World of Darkness game and I've been invited to play. I've never played in this system and I have only basic knowledge of character creation and lore. I was hoping I could get some advice building the type of character I want to play.

I want to play as a werewolf. Someone who had little knowledge about the supernatural until he was transformed.Since then he has become an outsider of sorts. At first he rejected his abilities but he has recently come to terms with the changes in his life. He has turned to MMA to focus his aggression in a positive way. He prefers to not fight outside of that environment lest he lose control.

How can I make this work?

[LibraryOgre]

It's kinda hard to make a loner werewolf... they tend to get found by SOMEBODY.

For tribe, I would suggest Glass Walker or Bone Gnawer... they tend to be in and among humans a lot, and have a few more Lost Cubs. Pretty much anyone would work, save Red Talons. Might go with a Black Furies, just for the fun of briefly being a male Fury (until they sell you to the Children).

For Auspice, I'd say NOT an Ahroun... your rage will be too big. A Galliard or Philodox is a bit more reasonable, a Theurge or a Ragabash can also work.

Other than that, it's a straightforward build. It's a bit of a cheat to choose grappling as your Brawl specialization... since grappling is Str+Brawl, and werewolves have a ton of Str, it makes you a bit of a beast. The Fair Glabro merit might be a good idea, since it would let you fight in Glabro (with the attendant healing and stat benefits) but, again, it would be a bit risky to be in the open like that.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Thank you for the reply. I am totally new to the system, so I was unaware that grappling would be that powerful. That's just a happy accident. The storyteller has informed me that there are a few options that are banned outright due to being incredibly OP. Something about Kung Fu werewolves destroying all the fun in the last game he was in. I explained the MMA idea to him and he didn't seem concerned.

[Anonymouswizard]

Double check what your GM is fine with and what the other players are going to be playing (oWoD is less crossover friendly with all the splats being on different power levels), as you'll have problems if everyone else is playing a vampire, who werewolves don't get along with. In that case you can probably do the same concept using either a Brujah or Gangrel.

[fishyfishyfishy]

As far as I know, the only other confirmed character is going to be a Hunter. The GM/ST has given the ok to play a werewolf. I made sure to ask if this would be ok and made it clear I'm not attempting to cause problems.

[JeenLeen]

As far as I know, the only other confirmed character is going to be a Hunter. The GM/ST has given the ok to play a werewolf. I made sure to ask if this would be ok and made it clear I'm not attempting to cause problems.

If the other guys are Hunters, you will probably be massively better at fighting than them. However, with how you describe your character's personality, you probably won't overshadow them too much. Hunters are a good match for a werewolf since their Second Sight can make them immune to Delirium. I recommend making sure the plot is set up such that you meet them on friendly terms, though. Your isolation from other fera makes it more reasonable that you could join some hunters.
A pro of the power disparity is that, even if you take weaker Gifts, you can probably still be on equal footing in combat.

From the other players: I hope not, but it's possible someone (especially a Zeal hunter) might think he's supposed to kill you to play his character properly. I'd recommend voicing this as a concern to the GM just to make sure you and the players are on the same footing.


But back to character creation -- not meaning to go on a big tangent:
I'd also check with the GM/ST about how your Gifts work mechanically and how much will be winged. I recall that, at least in the Werewolf book I had (2nd edition, I think) the Gifts didn't always have clear rulings on how they work. It slows down games to have to decide in the middle of a fight.

I agree that lower Rage would be good. Hurts your combat ability a bit, but, again, that's not too much of an issue if you are with hunters. I don't think you can declare non-garou as part of your pack, which means if you go into a rage, it might be hard not to kill your hunter friends once all the enemies are dead/gone. I'm not sure on these rules, but I recommend checking with your GM about how that could work.


Edit: I realized that I misread you as saying all the others were hunters. Well, most of the above still applies. Werewolves are generally more powerful and durable at char-gen than other supernaturals, but vampires and mages gain power more quickly. At least, that's what I've heard. Vampires and garou tend to kill each other (except Gangrel), but as one outside garou society, that's not an issue necessarily. Mages and garou at times work together, at times hate each other, but I reckon they and hunters are the ones you could most easily get along with. Well, changelings even moreso probably.

[Anonymouswizard]

As far as I know, the only other confirmed character is going to be a Hunter. The GM/ST has given the ok to play a werewolf. I made sure to ask if this would be ok and made it clear I'm not attempting to cause problems.

Try to talk to the hunter player and work out why he wouldn't want to kill you (especially if he's Zeal). Maybe the two of you are old friends from before your first change and his imbuing. If they're a Judge, maybe your actions are a way of proving that you aren't a monster. If they're an innocent, maybe you're proof that monsters aren't bad. If they're a defender maybe it's a case of "you aren't hurting anyone, but I'm keeping an eye on you". If they're an avenger you have problems.

Gift wise, you can either take combat gifts and be the brute of the group, or focus of utility gifts (e.g. use master of fire to make a way through an inferno). In the versatility scale werewolves are probably second worst, but above hunters as they can in theory learn any number of gifts.

Tribe wise, you can also go Ronin, which is effectively saying "**** you and your war against the Wyrm", although I can't remember how it works.

At this point I'd be surprised if you had to deal with vamps, but be prepared in case more hunters arrive, along with technocrats, and maybe demons. It depends on your group's tastes.

[LibraryOgre]

Thank you for the reply. I am totally new to the system, so I was unaware that grappling would be that powerful. That's just a happy accident. The storyteller has informed me that there are a few options that are banned outright due to being incredibly OP. Something about Kung Fu werewolves destroying all the fun in the last game he was in. I explained the MMA idea to him and he didn't seem concerned.

oWoD had a hard-on for every supernatural having their own special martial arts ninjas... the Stargazers in Werewolf with kalindo, the Assamites in Vampire, and the Akashic Brotherhood with Do in Mage. I found that the implications of grappling were frequently overlooked by people, largely because grappling doesn't directly cause wounds, and certainly not aggravated damage (i.e "Wounds most supernaturals cannot quickly overcome.") Grappling really comes into its own in a pack situation, though, where one grappler immobilizes, and someone else rips out the bad guy's throat.

[SaurOps]

Something to consider: there is no "unified classic/old WoD". You generally pick a single game and run with its assumptions. Combining more than one can be tricky, depending on the game. Werewolf and Hunter runs into Garou worrying about the Veil being shredded by humans and potentially labeling them a security risk, but that's peanuts compared to Werewolf and Mage being diametrically opposed in every possible way.

More on specific topic, being a werewolf means that you can step sideways and none of your Imbued compatriots can see you, know where you are or the like unless they are Hermits with the Level 4 Solitude Edge Transcendence. Hunters are just that out of tune with the Umbra, and with the exception of that one Edge, cannot touch it or go into it at all. They're stuck in one world while the werewolf can vanish at will, given a reflective surface and a spare moment.

[fishyfishyfishy]

There will only be 3 players and we regularly play D&D together. No matter what our character differences/rivalries may be this will be a friendly game and we'll have fun.

I'm hoping to use my ignorance of the lore as a RP tool. Hence the "knew nothing of the supernatural" bit. Whatever I learn in game is what my character will know.

I haven't yet had the opportunity to read through the book in great detail either. So until then suggestions, while welcome and appreciated, will not be fully understood. I just want to emphasize my noobishness here.

[JeenLeen]

I'm glad to hear that you know the other players well. A good, familiar gaming group, though not required, helps a lot.

Since you are a new player to this system, I'm going to add a mechanical note for character creation: Dexterity is arguably the most important stat for combat.
Dexterity + skill is the basic accuracy roll, and Dexterity + Dodge is the basic 'avoid getting hit' roll. (Some WoD games have rules for blocking or parrying as well as to dodging, and I'm not sure if they are all Dex or not, but I reckon they are.)

In my first WoD game, I had a guy with 2 Dexterity. He was just so horrible in combat that it made him not that fun to play. Though, this may matter a lot less for you, since shapeshifting boosts your Dex, and thus you would be on par with a Dex-based person even if you have low dex once you shift. I do think you should be able to have a fun game in WoD with a combat-weak person, but it gets annoying if you miss a lot, dodge very little, and can barely run compared to other teammates.

Another note for a new player, is that combat can require a lot of rolls. Generally, when person A attacks person B:
1. Person A rolls accuracy (Dex + Melee/Firearms/Brawl, usually)
2. Person B rolls dodge (Dex + Dodge). If A has more successes, move on to 3. If not, they miss.
3. Person A rolls damage (usually Str + a static number, or a static number for firearms; bonus successes from #2 give bonus damage dice)
4. Person B rolls soak (usually Stamina + any armor), if applicable*
*although this was houseruled away in the games I played, by the rules you cannot soak aggravated damage. Mortals (including hunters) and possibly werewolves in their native form (been a while since I saw the books, but someone told me this was the case) cannot soak lethal damage. Everyone can soak bashing damage. For some supernaturals, what is aggravated, lethal, or bashing changes depending on what you are. For example, silver is agg for werewolves.

The above took some time for us to wrap our heads around as we shifted from D&D to WoD.

[SaurOps]

I'm glad to hear that you know the other players well. A good, familiar gaming group, though not required, helps a lot.

Since you are a new player to this system, I'm going to add a mechanical note for character creation: Dexterity is arguably the most important stat for combat.
Dexterity + skill is the basic accuracy roll, and Dexterity + Dodge is the basic 'avoid getting hit' roll. (Some WoD games have rules for blocking or parrying as well as to dodging, and I'm not sure if they are all Dex or not, but I reckon they are.)

In my first WoD game, I had a guy with 2 Dexterity. He was just so horrible in combat that it made him not that fun to play. Though, this may matter a lot less for you, since shapeshifting boosts your Dex, and thus you would be on par with a Dex-based person even if you have low dex once you shift. I do think you should be able to have a fun game in WoD with a combat-weak person, but it gets annoying if you miss a lot, dodge very little, and can barely run compared to other teammates.

Shapeshifting doesn't get Garou much in the way of Dexterity. At most, it's two extra dice, and only in forms that have no hands.

Another note for a new player, is that combat can require a lot of rolls. Generally, when person A attacks person B:
1. Person A rolls accuracy (Dex + Melee/Firearms/Brawl, usually)
2. Person B rolls dodge (Dex + Dodge). If A has more successes, move on to 3. If not, they miss.
3. Person A rolls damage (usually Str + a static number, or a static number for firearms; bonus successes from #2 give bonus damage dice)
4. Person B rolls soak (usually Stamina + any armor), if applicable*
*although this was houseruled away in the games I played, by the rules you cannot soak aggravated damage. Mortals (including hunters) and possibly werewolves in their native form (been a while since I saw the books, but someone told me this was the case) cannot soak lethal damage. Everyone can soak bashing damage. For some supernaturals, what is aggravated, lethal, or bashing changes depending on what you are. For example, silver is agg for werewolves.

The above took some time for us to wrap our heads around as we shifted from D&D to WoD.

Actually, Garou and other Fera can soak aggravated damage in more resilient forms (any out of breed form for human or beast born), unless it occurs as a result of silver and/or gold as appropriate; breed forms for homid or lupus don't take aggravated damage from silver and/or gold, but are not quite as tough, as you have noted. This is a major advantage that hangs over the head of many crossover games, since a vampire would need Potence 4, Protean 2, and Fortitude 5+ to equal the might and resilience of a werewolf in Crinos, and even maxed out Fortitude for non-elders doesn't quite reach as high as the soak of a tough werewolf in the war form before adding on the werewolf's own extra soak powers. One of them, Luna's Armor, allows for a limited capability to soak silver and/or gold.

For reference, Garou and most Fera are vulnerable to silver. Corax are vulnerable to gold. Mokole are vulnerable to both, but merely plating a weapon with either is outright ineffective, whereas with others you can get a couple of strikes off before the coating fades and your weapon is no longer treated as silver or gold. Ananasi and Nuwisha are not vulnerable to either, though Kumo Ananasi are vulnerable to a strange type of fragrant rosewood.

[LibraryOgre]

Since you are a new player to this system, I'm going to add a mechanical note for character creation: Dexterity is arguably the most important stat for combat.
Dexterity + skill is the basic accuracy roll, and Dexterity + Dodge is the basic 'avoid getting hit' roll. (Some WoD games have rules for blocking or parrying as well as to dodging, and I'm not sure if they are all Dex or not, but I reckon they are.)

It's worth noting that wrestling is Str+Brawl, which is why it becomes ugly with Garou.

[Milodiah]

Hilariously enough, my one oWoD werewolf character was a Glass Walker Ragabash Homid. He had exactly one point of Rage and was the most chill person ever. He also never Shifted at any point in the campaign, had major difficulties with the Umbra and stepping sideways, owned a multi-million dollar jewelry store that did in fact handle silver, and was all-in-all nearly the exact opposite of being a werewolf.

One of my favorite highlights was a (completely unnecessary) fight the other PCs started, in which I was not involved...my character had gone home, since it was Sunday night and he had to open the store tomorrow. The GM kept forgetting this, though.

"Okay, so you're pulling your tomahawk and taking cover behind the limo's engine block...Cody, what's your character doing?"

"I'm eating microwaved Chinese food and watching Netflix. In my boxers."





Anyway, you'd probably be best off as Bone Gnawer/ Glass Walker as said before, since those are the most human-like. Bone Gnawers are typically lower-class in human society, while Glass Walkers are typically upper middle class or even rich, but that's not a hard and fast rule. Since you will be forgoing supernatural elements, you'll have a good bit of more mundane options with your Backgrounds. You can be rich, you can be well-connected, you can be a bit of both...etc etc. Personally I prefer to go that way anyway, as opposed to the more situational Rituals or Fetishes, or the more fluff-purposed stuff like ancestry.


I'd be more able to help if you gave us a bit more information on the topic...do you hold a job/profession in human society? I assume you do, since you aren't very integrated with werewolf society. It might be my Call of Cthulhu roots, but I think ability scores are best extrapolated from career and hobby. Obviously we'll be doing a lot of Brawl/Dodge/Athletics, so Talents will probably be your big investment.

[comicshorse]

This is a major advantage that hangs over the head of many crossover games, since a vampire would need Potence 4, Protean 2, and Fortitude 5+ to equal the might and resilience of a werewolf in Crinos,

Eh ? As I remember it Crinos gives you Str +4 and Sta +3.
So Claws = Protean 2, yes ( assuming the Elder wants claws)
Sta +3 is worse than Fortitude 5
Str +4 is worse then Potence 4

[Milodiah]

Werewolf/Hunter crossovers tend to function pretty well compared to others...Vampire is somewhat infeasible not so much because of the stats and mechanical discrepancies as the style of story they encourage. Vampire is well-known for its emphasis on social posturing and hierarchies, while Werewolf society is more decentralized and hands-on.

I've played a game with two Hunters, a werewolf, a mage, and a changeling without too much awkwardness.

Honestly, it's not quite as bad as most people make it out to be. One has to remember that the differences between a vampire and a werewolf in terms of how they handle and play is pretty comparable to the differences between a sorcerer and a fighter in a game of D&D.

[SaurOps]

Eh ? As I remember it Crinos gives you Str +4 and Sta +3.
So Claws = Protean 2, yes ( assuming the Elder wants claws)
Sta +3 is worse than Fortitude 5
Str +4 is worse then Potence 4

Potence was altered in V20 to only add dice unless the lick ponies up blood points to change the dice into successes. Fortitude has, ever since Revised, formed the only dice pool that vampires have for soaking aggravated damage (past editions added in Stamina, but that ended back in 1998). Barring a Stamina of 1, a Garou will equal or exceed the vampire's capacity to sponge up aggravated damage, and doesn't have to worry about getting burned by sunlight, either.

Meanwhile, even a vampire with Fortitude 5 has much to fear from a weak werewolf with a Homid Strength of 1. This means 7 dice of claw damage in Crinos. That's about the bottom of the basement. You can't even really see the ceiling from there.

This isn't even counting that every werewolf effectively has Celerity as well, and at the price of not being socially welcome among humans, they can boost it up to an effective 5 for far less than a vampire would have to pay. NB: Celerity in V20 only gives one action per blood point, and it got cut down even further in V20 Dark Ages, to the point where it only negates penalties from taking multiple actions rather than providing extra actions. Rage has yet to see such a takedown, and given the intent of much of the older material to make werewolves super-scary to vampires if the prospect of a face to face meeting is in the cards, as well as the fact that Rage is much more approachable in a group play balance for Werewolf than pre-V20 Dark Ages Celerity was for Vampire, it might not ever get cut down. Hell, Gurahl Rage even got a boost in W20 Changing Breeds, so that they can get up to Strength 20 for several turns, provided the werebear in question had Strength 5 in Homid and there are 10 points of Rage available to the character (there are ways to outstrip your normal supply, so it doesn't necessarily entail having Rage 10 and tapping out).

So, yeah. Vampires need to invest heavily in physical Disciplines (or have Serpentis 8) just to match Crinos, and if you're using V20 DA, they can't even hope to cleanly match the Rage action economy, which makes any encounter with Garou a brush with the Danger Zone.

[comicshorse]

Ah I must admit I took Classic WOD to mean pre V20
Still a Werewolves stamina is just as useless against a Vampire with a silver weapon as a Vampire's stamina is against claws and I'd choose Celerity over Rage as Rage runs out very fast but Celerity can be used over and over

P.S.
Haven't read Werewolf for ages. I'm pretty sure Obfuscate works just fine on them. Right ? 'Sense Wyrm' aside which I seem to recall doesn't always work and only gives a rough direction anyway.

[A_Man]

Generally speaking, a Physical Discipline Vampire versus a Garou focused on physical attack, the Garou will win, even if the vamp carries silver weapons.

A Gangrel is probably the closest to fighting a Garou, but even then, I think Crinos beats their version of protean, most of the time.

[SaurOps]

Ah I must admit I took Classic WOD to mean pre V20
Still a Werewolves stamina is just as useless against a Vampire with a silver weapon as a Vampire's stamina is against claws and I'd choose Celerity over Rage as Rage runs out very fast but Celerity can be used over and over

P.S.
Haven't read Werewolf for ages. I'm pretty sure Obfuscate works just fine on them. Right ? 'Sense Wyrm' aside which I seem to recall doesn't always work and only gives a rough direction anyway.

Sense Wyrm isn't what a cadaver would need to worry about. Heightened Senses and a number of other Gifts, on the other hand, would be. Also, Obfuscate doesn't extend into the Umbra. Peaking through the Gauntlet is a potential way to cut a stealth-vampire's knees out from under them. At the point detection occurs, the vampire is in deep crap and likely to go from undead to just dead in short order. Then there's the "accidental" use of Gifts that flood the area with sunlight...

[LibraryOgre]

Generally speaking, a Physical Discipline Vampire versus a Garou focused on physical attack, the Garou will win, even if the vamp carries silver weapons.

A Gangrel is probably the closest to fighting a Garou, but even then, I think Crinos beats their version of protean, most of the time.

It somewhat depends. If you're using a Werewolf Garou, then that may be true, I haven't gamed it out. If you're using a VtM Lupine (what they call werewolves, and have stats for), a well-trained character can take them on pretty easily. It goes like this:

The vampire wants to be a knife fighter, have a silver knife, and have Potence and Celerity. Every level of Potence adds automatic successes to the damage rolls; every level of celerity adds more attacks. Using the rules from the Player's Guide that lets knife fighters attack twice per action by splitting their dice pool, you can pretty easily boost your Dex with blood, split your formerly 5 dice attack pool (2 Dex + 3 Melee) into 5 and 5 (now 5 Dex + 3 Melee, and each attack gets 1 additional die per Player's Guide rules, but the difficulty is now 5 instead of 4), and make 2 + 2*Celerity attacks in a round, doing at least Potence damage with each strike. If you've managed to distract the Werewolf (say, with someone stupid enough to pull a gun and start screaming for silver bullets), the werewolf might not even have much defense against you. It stacks up quickly.

Needless to say, this has happened to me before. I didn't even start the round with a silver knife; a friend of mine conjured one with Thaumaturgy, handed it to me, and skedaddled for the shadows (He was a Lasombra).

(The relevant bit is on page 105 of the Player's Guide).

[themaque]

As far as I know, the only other confirmed character is going to be a Hunter. The GM/ST has given the ok to play a werewolf. I made sure to ask if this would be ok and made it clear I'm not attempting to cause problems.

Worst character I've seen for werewolf, the storyteller was talked into letting the player play a werewolf with kung fu.

oh, the kung-fu rules where from the Street Fighter system also by White Wolf. Nothing puts the fear of god into a man like a thousand hand slap of a Haiduken from a full Garou.

Sorry to go off thread but... yeah. don't do that.

[SaurOps]

Worst character I've seen for werewolf, the storyteller was talked into letting the player play a werewolf with kung fu.

oh, the kung-fu rules where from the Street Fighter system also by White Wolf. Nothing puts the fear of god into a man like a thousand hand slap of a Haiduken from a full Garou.

Sorry to go off thread but... yeah. don't do that.

That'd arguably make the werewolf less effective, given the points that have to be split between individual combat techniques. And then you had to pay out the nose for special moves, in and out of chargen. And the Focus maneuvers all based their damage on Intelligence, for some reason, so your hadouken wouldn't do much damage unless you were a deep thinker.

[JeenLeen]

Just wanted to say that I'm sorry for the misinformation in my post. My ignorance about garou rules shows.

Though, as folk speak of Potence and knives, I found in a mage game that Forces and knives worked similarly. We generally didn't have Time haste effects on us as well (to emulate Celerity), but eventually whether we hit or not mattered more than how many damage dice we rolled, since Forces provided bonus successes.

[SaurOps]

Just wanted to say that I'm sorry for the misinformation in my post. My ignorance about garou rules shows.

Though, as folk speak of Potence and knives, I found in a mage game that Forces and knives worked similarly. We generally didn't have Time haste effects on us as well (to emulate Celerity), but eventually whether we hit or not mattered more than how many damage dice we rolled, since Forces provided bonus successes.

The cheap trick that birthed a thousand "characters", if you can even call them that, with Strength 1, Dexterity 5, Stamina 4, and as many dots as possible in Arete and Forces.

[LibraryOgre]

Free successes on damage are the cheapest trick of all.

[fishyfishyfishy]

And this is why I came here for help. The playground is always great at stuff like this.

I'm definitely going Glass Walker Ragabash with an emphasis on skirmish style tactics. Stealth and brawling with some skill with firearms. I'm going to write up a military background, where he first learned about his abilities by accidentally killing everyone in the first firefight he ended up in. Since then he's been on the run and has only picked up the basics of supernatural things in the world. I took the flaw (or what've they're called) that gives a werewolf hunter immune to delirium in exchange for some extra points. I figure it would be fun RP to have this one guy in my troop who survived my first transformation and wants to hunt me down and kill me.

[SaurOps]

And this is why I came here for help. The playground is always great at stuff like this.

I'm definitely going Glass Walker Ragabash with an emphasis on skirmish style tactics. Stealth and brawling with some skill with firearms. I'm going to write up a military background, where he first learned about his abilities by accidentally killing everyone in the first firefight he ended up in. Since then he's been on the run and has only picked up the basics of supernatural things in the world. I took the flaw (or what've they're called) that gives a werewolf hunter immune to delirium in exchange for some extra points. I figure it would be fun RP to have this one guy in my troop who survived my first transformation and wants to hunt me down and kill me.

Your character is involved with a potential scandal in the armed forces because of a frenzy, and you took Pierced Veil for the poor sucker. As is the running joke with the Taken series, "Good luck." It's not just hunters that won't be affected by the Delirium and end up forgetting, it's everyone.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Your character is involved with a potential scandal in the armed forces because of a frenzy, and you took Pierced Veil for the poor sucker. As is the running joke with the Taken series, "Good luck." It's not just hunters that won't be affected by the Delirium and end up forgetting, it's everyone.

No no, it's called "Hunted" and it says you have a Hunter coming after you who "for some reason is immune to delirium". It doesn't say why and doesn't say that anyone else is immune.