Alignment changes [Belkar]

[Peelee]

Its not like a funeral pyre is an obscure method or anything. As you pointed out its respectful and practical, which is probably why it became tradition.

My anger is more in the backwards direction; they shouldn't have made it the typical Jedi burial method, since they had precedent with two other Jedi's deaths as becoming one with the Force. Also, it's not so much the prequels as a whole as Episode I. I can pretty much tear every part of that movie apart as ridiculous, shoe-horny, spastic tripe.

[littlebum2002]

Honestly, I don't even remember the scene from Episode 1 you are talking about. I'm referring solely to the one movie.

I don't think Luke pulled a dead body from a ship that was about to explode to keep people from desecrating the corpse, Desecrating it would be pointless even if they could find the molecules that once made up the body after it had been blown up. He retrieved the corpse because, in his mind, his father had redeemed himself by sacrificing his own body not only to save his son but thousands of other innocents whom the Emperor would eventually kill. Then, he burned the body in what appeared to be a very respectful ritual, with a look of sorrow on his face.

I mean it's pretty clear to me from the ending of that movie that Vader was redeemed in Luke's eyes.


EDIT: I don't want to talk real-world religion, but no religion on earth that I know of requires you to completely undo every misdeed you have ever done in order to atone. Usually admitting you were wrong and regretting your bad decisions is enough, and it appears that Vader did this.

[Peelee]

Honestly, I don't even remember the scene from Episode 1 you are talking about. I'm referring solely to the one movie.

I don't think Luke pulled a dead body from a ship that was about to explode to keep people from desecrating the corpse, Desecrating it would be pointless even if they could find the molecules that once made up the body after it had been blown up. He retrieved the corpse because, in his mind, his father had redeemed himself by sacrificing his own body not only to save his son but thousands of other innocents whom the Emperor would eventually kill. Then, he burned the body in what appeared to be a very respectful ritual, with a look of sorrow on his face.

I mean it's pretty clear to me from the ending of that movie that Vader was redeemed in Luke's eyes.


EDIT: I don't want to talk real-world religion, but no religion on earth that I know of requires you to completely undo every misdeed you have ever done in order to atone. Usually admitting you were wrong and regretting your bad decisions is enough, and it appears that Vader did this.

I'm referring to Qui-Gon Jinn's pyre, which was the only reason to believe it was a Jedi-specific rite. Without that scene, it could be a traditional rite for any number of cultures or planets. That you said it was a Jedi ritual made me think that you were referring to that Qui-Gon's was also burned, thus dictating burial rights for Jedi whose bodies remained corporeal upon death.

Sorry. I tend to nerd out on the Star War.

[littlebum2002]

I'm referring to Qui-Gon Jinn's pyre, which was the only reason to believe it was a Jedi-specific rite. Without that scene, it could be a traditional rite for any number of cultures or planets. That you said it was a Jedi ritual made me think that you were referring to that Qui-Gon's was also burned, thus dictating burial rights for Jedi whose bodies remained corporeal upon death.

Sorry. I tend to nerd out on the Star War.

Well, apparently I remember more than I thought I did. You're right, I do remember it somehow being a Jedi thing, I just assumed it was from Episode "Six" but clearly it wasn't.

There are much worse things to nerd out on than Star Wars.

[Peelee]

Well, apparently I remember more than I thought I did. You're right, I do remember it somehow being a Jedi thing, I just assumed it was from Episode "Six" but clearly it wasn't.

There are much worse things to nerd out on than Star Wars.

Oh, I was apologizing for the miscommunication, not the nerding out. I'm not shy about that at all.

[Snails]

Its not like a funeral pyre is an obscure method or anything. As you pointed out its respectful and practical, which is probably why it became tradition.

Also a respectful ceremony of burning has strong connotations of "cleansing", because it is a practical means of dealing with a body of a loved one who has been "corrupted" by disease. That such would be particularly apt from Luke's POV at a spiritual level was completely obvious waaaaaay back when the movie first came out.

[Peelee]

Also a respectful ceremony of burning has strong connotations of "cleansing", because it is a practical means of dealing with a body of a loved one who has been "corrupted" by disease. That such would be particularly apt from Luke's POV at a spiritual level was completely obvious waaaaaay back when the movie first came out.

For the record, several details about Vader's pyre correspond to a real-world religion's ritual. This was intentionally done, and because I enjoy not being banned from these forums, that is all I will say on the matter of spiritualism about the pyre.

[Darth Paul]

... because I enjoy not being banned from these forums, that is all I will say on the matter of spiritualism about the pyre.

May I say, we enjoy having you here.

I recall thinking, re: Episode VI, that, since Vader/Anakin didn't disappear upon death, the pyre was needed to "release" him; something I believe the novelization confirmed for me. I guess I figured Obi-Wan explained it to Luke offscreen.

[Gusion]

I mean it's pretty clear to me from the ending of that movie that Vader was redeemed in Luke's eyes.

I always took the fact that Anakin Skywalker appeared next to Yoda and Obi-Wan at the very end as the sign he was "cosmically" redeemed, not just in Luke's eyes.

[hamishspence]

In the books (and in some Lucas commentary) - "becoming a Force ghost" is something you have to learn - just being a Jedi won't do it.

So, after Anakin has died but "before his spirit fades" - Obi-Wan comes to him and offers him that chance to learn.

[Darth Paul]

In the books (and in some Lucas commentary) - "becoming a Force ghost" is something you have to learn - just being a Jedi won't do it.

So, after Anakin has died but "before his spirit fades" - Obi-Wan comes to him and offers him that chance to learn.

Hmmm.

Not to question Word Of Lucas, but that makes Anakin a really, really fast learner, considering the timeline.

1) Dies on the Death Star- mid-day Endor time, actually probably closer to 1800 considering battle going on for a considerable time, but let's give benefit of the doubt.
2) Appears as a spirit during party, probably no later than midnight.

So even if the battle and his death took place in the morning Endor time, that's still less than 16 hours to learn the trick of transmogrifying himself into a Force spirit.

I think I prefer my head-canon, that The Force itself transmuted him into a spirit as a reward for doing away with the Sith. (I know that might contradict what Ep III had to say at the end, that Qui-Gon learned how to do it and then taught Obi-Wan. Never said that was the only way to do it though.)

[littlebum2002]

Hmmm.

Not to question Word Of Lucas, but that makes Anakin a really, really fast learner, considering the timeline.

1) Dies on the Death Star- mid-day Endor time, actually probably closer to 1800 considering battle going on for a considerable time, but let's give benefit of the doubt.
2) Appears as a spirit during party, probably no later than midnight.

So even if the battle and his death took place in the morning Endor time, that's still less than 16 hours to learn the trick of transmogrifying himself into a Force spirit.

I think I prefer my head-canon, that The Force itself transmuted him into a spirit as a reward for doing away with the Sith. (I know that might contradict what Ep III had to say at the end, that Qui-Gon learned how to do it and then taught Obi-Wan. Never said that was the only way to do it though.)

Well, he DID have an unprecedented midi-chlorian count, so that probably explains why he learned so fast.

[Darth Paul]

Well, he DID have an unprecedented midi-chlorian count, so that probably explains why he learned so fast.

And I liked what Robot Chicken Star Wars Special had to say about midichlorians (Mark Hamill himself spoke the line):

"Look, if you're not gonna take this seriously, I'm out."

[scurv]

Every time I read http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html It makes me debate the value of trying vs past record, Although a few pages back it indicates there that the belkster has been significantly less evil on the graph. And Roy admits to channeling belkars efforts to good ends.

[orrion]

Every time I read http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html It makes me debate the value of trying vs past record, Although a few pages back it indicates there that the belkster has been significantly less evil on the graph. And Roy admits to channeling belkars efforts to good ends.

No, that means Belkar has done significantly less evil. It's not that (at the point of that comic) he's been less inclined to do it.

[Aka-chan]

The way I see it, Belkar has been moving towards Neutral, but hasn't reached it yet. The Good-Evil alignment axis isn't a set of three dots, it's a line divided into three equal segments. Belkar is still in the Evil segment of that line, but he's been inching towards the mark that divides the Neutral and Evil segments from each other. He's still Evil, but he's moving in a Neutral-ward direction. Whether he'll actually make it over the border before he dies (or at the moment of his death, if he dies in a self-sacrificial manner) is an open question.

[Darth Paul]

I just read through books 1-4 again, and it reminded me of how far Belkar has come. There was a time when he almost took a job with Xykon, before he remembered that flinging Mr. Scruffy in Tsukiko's face would be more fun at that moment. I can't picture him considering that deal today, not just because the party's back together, but because Belkar's changed. He's still evil, but he's "evil with friends". Belkar doesn't just fight for himself and Mr. Scruffy any more, at least that's the impression I get. He may not admit it to himself, but he is a full member of the party in a way he has never been before.
I don't know how much that adds up to an alignment change, but it's definitely a personality change.

[veti]

I just read through books 1-4 again, and it reminded me of how far Belkar has come. There was a time when he almost took a job with Xykon, before he remembered that flinging Mr. Scruffy in Tsukiko's face would be more fun at that moment. I can't picture him considering that deal today, not just because the party's back together, but because Belkar's changed. He's still evil, but he's "evil with friends". Belkar doesn't just fight for himself and Mr. Scruffy any more, at least that's the impression I get. He may not admit it to himself, but he is a full member of the party in a way he has never been before.
I don't know how much that adds up to an alignment change, but it's definitely a personality change.

We'll never know for sure, but I don't think Belkar was ever serious about taking that job - I thnk he was yanking Haley's chain at that point. And he's always been a team player: he went with Roy on the starmetal quest, and he signed up straight away to rescue Elan. When the inn exploded, he could have simply walked away from the party (and the obnoxious paladin), but he chose to stick with them.

Above all else, he is - always has been - a PC. For a PC to take a job with the Big Bad would mean becoming an NPC - before the player is ready to retire - and that's a fate far worse than death.

[factotum]

Saying Belkar is a team player is ignoring a heck of a lot of stuff. He tried to kill Elan for XP, don't forget, and the only reason he's ever stuck with the team has been expediency. He stayed with them in Dorukan's Dungeon because they provided an easy way to gain phat lewt, he only signed up for the starmetal quest because Roy dared him into fighting the "super tough giants" who guarded it (and once he was out in the middle of the forest it would have been dangerous to make his way back alone), and he only stayed with them through the Azure City arc because the alternative was initially prison, and later the Mark of Justice. In fact, I'm struggling to think of any moment in the first few hundred strips where he *could* have chosen to leave apart from the starmetal quest, where he got tricked.

[veti]

Saying Belkar is a team player is ignoring a heck of a lot of stuff. He tried to kill Elan for XP, don't forget, and the only reason he's ever stuck with the team has been expediency. He stayed with them in Dorukan's Dungeon because they provided an easy way to gain phat lewt, he only signed up for the starmetal quest because Roy dared him into fighting the "super tough giants" who guarded it (and once he was out in the middle of the forest it would have been dangerous to make his way back alone), and he only stayed with them through the Azure City arc because the alternative was initially prison, and later the Mark of Justice. In fact, I'm struggling to think of any moment in the first few hundred strips where he *could* have chosen to leave apart from the starmetal quest, where he got tricked.

I just mentioned one occasion: when the inn exploded.

When Elan was kidnapped by bandits, Roy was ready to walk away from him. Belkar wasn't.

On the starmetal quest, Belkar is easier to talk around than Haley. He's more willing than Vaarsuvius to fight the ogres.

After retrieving the starmetal, it took "weeks" to haul the dragon's loot up onto the cart. That's weeks of opportunities for Belkar to fill his pockets and slip off whenever he wanted to.

Sure, you can say "He was just doing it for such-and-such reason". But that's always true, of everyone. It's a little thing called roleplaying, you rationalise your decision even though the decision itself - to stay with the party - was a foregone conclusion and everyone knows it. The real reason is "because he's a PC". It's not complicated.

[littlebum2002]

I just mentioned one occasion: when the inn exploded.

When Elan was kidnapped by bandits, Roy was ready to walk away from him. Belkar wasn't.

On the starmetal quest, Belkar is easier to talk around than Haley. He's more willing than Vaarsuvius to fight the ogres.

After retrieving the starmetal, it took "weeks" to haul the dragon's loot up onto the cart. That's weeks of opportunities for Belkar to fill his pockets and slip off whenever he wanted to.

Sure, you can say "He was just doing it for such-and-such reason". But that's always true, of everyone. It's a little thing called roleplaying, you rationalise your decision even though the decision itself - to stay with the party - was a foregone conclusion and everyone knows it. The real reason is "because he's a PC". It's not complicated.

Being forced to be a team player is not the same as being a team player. That's like praising prisoners for being good members of the team that's cleaning up the highway. If you're a team player, that means you do so of your own free will, not because a guard, or narrative, forced you to.

Roy is a team player. Durkon is a team player. V, Haley, and Elan are all slightly less dedicated, but still team players. Belkar, until recently, was just a member of the team because he was forced, either by narrative conventions or more conventional means like magic, to be a member of the team. That does not make him a team player.

The only member he showed any care for at all, once, was Elan, and that's because he found Elan funny. Suddenly caring about members of his team(Heck, caring about other living creatures in general) is an entirely new concept to his character and marks a dramatic change from his old personality.

It's the difference between doing something because someone forced you to, and doing it of your own free will. And that's a HUGE difference

[Peelee]

Being forced to be a team player is not the same as being a team player. That's like praising prisoners for being good members of the team that's cleaning up the highway. If you're a team player, that means you do so of your own free will, not because a guard, or narrative, forced you to.

Roy is a team player. Durkon is a team player. V, Haley, and Elan are all slightly less dedicated, but still team players. Belkar, until recently, was just a member of the team because he was forced, either by narrative conventions or more conventional means like magic, to be a member of the team. That does not make him a team player.

The only member he showed any care for at all, once, was Elan, and that's because he found Elan funny. Suddenly caring about members of his team(Heck, caring about other living creatures in general) is an entirely new concept to his character and marks a dramatic change from his old personality.

It's the difference between doing something because someone forced you to, and doing it of your own free will. And that's a HUGE difference

But Belkar hasn't been forced since the beginning. The contract was for Xykon. Even though Xykon is still around, Roy believed him to be vanquished, and considered the contract completed. Belkar was not forcibly compelled by any of the order after that. From the defeat of the YABD until Miko found them, Belkar could have cut and run.

[littlebum2002]

But Belkar hasn't been forced since the beginning. The contract was for Xykon. Even though Xykon is still around, Roy believed him to be vanquished, and considered the contract completed. Belkar was not forcibly compelled by any of the order after that. From the defeat of the YABD until Miko found them, Belkar could have cut and run.

He was compelled to go on that quest for his own personal satisfaction at killing giants.

After killing the black Dragon, he was compelled to stay with the group because 1/6th of a bunch of cartloads of gold is a lot more money than he would have been able to haul away on his own. So he stayed with them because of greed.

Then he stayed with him for his own personal satisfaction from trying to get a Paladin to lose their powers.

Then he stayed with them because leaving them would have made his Mark of Justice go off.

After Roy died, he stayed with Haley because she could kill people he couldn't.

And then after his hippie quest he stayed with them because he wanted to fake being reformed, because then (he hoped) the rest of the order would believe he honestly became a real team player and have his back like the rest of the team.


But that particular poster was saying that none of that mattered, and that he only stayed with the Order because narrative convention forced him to, which is a good point, but which ignores the MAJOR difference between doing something because you're forced to and because you want to.


Either way, now he is following them because he is honestly (albeit not completely) reformed, and staying with them is the right thing to do. That is a very important distinction between either of the reasons ("he was forced to by selfishness" or "he was forced to because the narrative demanded it") why he was staying with them before

[veti]

Being forced to be a team player is not the same as being a team player. That's like praising prisoners for being good members of the team that's cleaning up the highway. If you're a team player, that means you do so of your own free will, not because a guard, or narrative, forced you to.

I'm sorry, you're going to have to go into some more detail about this "difference" between "doing something of your own free will" and "being forced by narrative convention to do it".

From where I sit, everyone's actions from Strip 1 onwards could be described as "forced by narrative convention". All the phrase conveys is "he's a character in a story, hence he doesn't have free will, his actions are controlled by the author" - but that's no more true of him than it is of the others.

And if "narrative convention" is a strong enough force to rob Belkar of credit for not bailing on the party when he had (several) chances to do so, then how can you blame him for his evil actions? He had exactly as much free will about his alleged attempt on Elan's life, as he did about not walking away after the inn exploded.

[Peelee]

He was compelled to go on that quest for his own personal satisfaction at killing giants.

After killing the black Dragon, he was compelled to stay with the group because 1/6th of a bunch of cartloads of gold is a lot more money than he would have been able to haul away on his own. So he stayed with them because of greed.

Then he stayed with him for his own personal satisfaction from trying to get a Paladin to lose their powers.

Then he stayed with them because leaving them would have made his Mark of Justice go off.

After Roy died, he stayed with Haley because she could kill people he couldn't.

And then after his hippie quest he stayed with them because he wanted to fake being reformed, because then (he hoped) the rest of the order would believe he honestly became a real team player and have his back like the rest of the team.


But that particular poster was saying that none of that mattered, and that he only stayed with the Order because narrative convention forced him to, which is a good point, but which ignores the MAJOR difference between doing something because you're forced to and because you want to.


Either way, now he is following them because he is honestly (albeit not completely) reformed, and staying with them is the right thing to do. That is a very important distinction between either of the reasons ("he was forced to by selfishness" or "he was forced to because the narrative demanded it") why he was staying with them before

Let's start by keeping things simple, for my argument's sake.

Before Xykon, contract was in effect. After Xykon, he volunteered to stay to kill giants. After YABD, he had no reason to stay. After Miko, he was arrested, and shortly thereafter was made aware of Xykon's continued existence. The contract was then re-enforceable.

Unless you wish to claim that the six shares of the treasure was to be divided exactly equally (as in, if there are 6 rubies, 6 diamonds, 6 emeralds, 6 pearls, 6 jets, and 6 sapphires, each stone worth exactly 100 gp, the group would only accept each person getting one of each stone instead of picking and choosing an equitable mix-and-match), Belkar could simply have taken the most expensive small items totaling up to 1/6 of the value of the hoard and, again, cut and run. So long as 5/6th of the value remains, the rest of the party would have no obvious legitimate reason to object to this.

[littlebum2002]

I'm sorry, you're going to have to go into some more detail about this "difference" between "doing something of your own free will" and "being forced by narrative convention to do it".

From where I sit, everyone's actions from Strip 1 onwards could be described as "forced by narrative convention". All the phrase conveys is "he's a character in a story, hence he doesn't have free will, his actions are controlled by the author" - but that's no more true of him than it is of the others.

And if "narrative convention" is a strong enough force to rob Belkar of credit for not bailing on the party when he had (several) chances to do so, then how can you blame him for his evil actions? He had exactly as much free will about his alleged attempt on Elan's life, as he did about not walking away after the inn exploded.

I, personally, don't agree with the whole "narrative convention" thing. I think saying something has to happen just because the story would suck otherwise is a huge cop-out. But you're the one that said that Belkar had to stay with the group because he's a PC. So even if that was the case, now he's not staying with them because he's forced to, he's staying with them because he wants to.

I personally hate taking such a meta look at a story, and would prefer to look at the characters actions on their own merits, in which case Belkar STILL had the selfish reasons I mentioned for staying with the party, up until his "Hippie Vision Quest", after which he made his first unselfish decision to stay with the party.

If you look at it this way, then he really WOULD have taken Tsusiko's offer, because although looking at it from a meta perspective it would have ruined the group and the story, from his perspective it would have been the only foreseeable way to remove the curse, which was his top priority at that point.

Let's start by keeping things simple, for my argument's sake.

Before Xykon, contract was in effect. After Xykon, he volunteered to stay to kill giants. After YABD, he had no reason to stay. After Miko, he was arrested, and shortly thereafter was made aware of Xykon's continued existence. The contract was then re-enforceable.

Unless you wish to claim that the six shares of the treasure was to be divided exactly equally (as in, if there are 6 rubies, 6 diamonds, 6 emeralds, 6 pearls, 6 jets, and 6 sapphires, each stone worth exactly 100 gp, the group would only accept each person getting one of each stone instead of picking and choosing an equitable mix-and-match), Belkar could simply have taken the most expensive small items totaling up to 1/6 of the value of the hoard and, again, cut and run. So long as 5/6th of the value remains, the rest of the party would have no obvious legitimate reason to object to this.

The treasure was so vast it took them weeks just too haul it out of the dungeon into carts. It would have probably taken more weeks to count all of it, appraise all the magic items, then count up three most valuable items and give them to Belkar. You don't count your items in the middle of a dangerous dungeon, you count them back home where it's safe.

So Belkar's only chance to leave the group then would be to find whatever looks the most valuable, throw it in a cart, and leave in the middle of the night, but most likely he'd be taking a much smaller share.

If I were a mercenary (which I am treating Belkar as up until this point), and I was party to helping find an enormous treasure, I'd follow the party back into town, or wherever they want to count it all up, too make sure I got my fair share. I mean you already spent weeks helping get the treasure, why not wait a few more days to wait until it's all counted so you get what you're owed?

[Keltest]

I, personally, don't agree with the whole "narrative convention" thing. I think saying something has to happen just because the story would suck otherwise is a huge cop-out. But you're the one that said that Belkar had to stay with the group because he's a PC. So even if that was the case, now he's not staying with them because he's forced to, he's staying with them because he wants to.

I personally hate taking such a meta look at a story, and would prefer to look at the characters actions on their own merits, in which case Belkar STILL had the selfish reasons I mentioned for staying with the party, up until his "Hippie Vision Quest", after which he made his first unselfish decision to stay with the party.

If you look at it this way, then he really WOULD have taken Tsusiko's offer, because although looking at it from a meta perspective it would have ruined the group and the story, from his perspective it would have been the only foreseeable way to remove the curse, which was his top priority at that point.



The treasure was so vast it took them weeks just too haul it out of the dungeon into carts. It would have probably taken more weeks to count all of it, appraise all the magic items, then count up three most valuable items and give them to Belkar. You don't count your items in the middle of a dangerous dungeon, you count them back home where it's safe.

So Belkar's only chance to leave the group then would be to find whatever looks the most valuable, throw it in a cart, and leave in the middle of the night, but most likely he'd be taking a much smaller share.

If I were a mercenary (which I am treating Belkar as up until this point), and I was party to helping find an enormous treasure, I'd follow the party back into town, or wherever they want to count it all up, too make sure I got my fair share. I mean you already spent weeks helping get the treasure, why not wait a few more days to wait until it's all counted so you get what you're owed?

I think you may be missing the point. Belkar is choosing, of his own volition, to stay with the party. That he is unable to leave the story due to being a main character is beside the point, as it is completely out of universe. Belkar could choose, at any point after DCF, to cut his losses and bail out. That it may not be in his best interests to do so is irrelevant, as the option is available for him to willfully not choose. Roy is not threatening Belkar with execution if he leaves, he has no (lawful) means of persecuting him should he decide to bug out, and he certainly isn't going to waste the energy needed to force Belkar to comply.

Simply put, that Belkar's best option is to be (or pretend to be) a team player does not invalidate the other options available.

[Peelee]

Haley has a high appraise skill, and as you pointed out, weeks of hauling treasure up a vertical hole. Oh, and a deep affection for money, especially at a time when she needed a sizable amount to free her father from prison. Is it then your contention that she would not use this opportunity to keep a running count as she went?

[littlebum2002]

I think you may be missing the point. Belkar is choosing, of his own volition, to stay with the party. That he is unable to leave the story due to being a main character is beside the point, as it is completely out of universe. Belkar could choose, at any point after DCF, to cut his losses and bail out. That it may not be in his best interests to do so is irrelevant, as the option is available for him to willfully not choose. Roy is not threatening Belkar with execution if he leaves, he has no (lawful) means of persecuting him should he decide to bug out, and he certainly isn't going to waste the energy needed to force Belkar to comply.

Simply put, that Belkar's best option is to be (or pretend to be) a team player does not invalidate the other options available.

I agree. I'm just looking at his reasons for staying. Up until "hippie vision quest" they were all selfish reasons. After that, they were quasi-selfish, staying for his own benefit, sure, but choosing to benefit himself by helping others rather than benefit himself by leaving with the Cleric. Recently, they have been much less selfish and more for the well being of others.

Belkar has become, since that moment, increasingly more empathetic of others, and more willing to do things to help the team.

Haley has a high appraise skill, and as you pointed out, weeks of hauling treasure up a vertical hole. Oh, and a deep affection for money, especially at a time when she needed a sizable amount to free her father from prison. Is it then your contention that she would not use this opportunity to keep a running count as she went?

This...is a very good point. I can think of two answers.

1) she chose not to share that information, since she knew he would take his share and leave, thus leaving them only 5 people hauling loot instead of 6

2) she told him after all the loot was hauled, and he figured they're going to a city, he's going to a city, why not stay with the group for protection until they get there?

[orrion]

But Belkar hasn't been forced since the beginning. The contract was for Xykon. Even though Xykon is still around, Roy believed him to be vanquished, and considered the contract completed. Belkar was not forcibly compelled by any of the order after that. From the defeat of the YABD until Miko found them, Belkar could have cut and run.

So.. you're saying he could have abandoned a heaping load of treasure and run off. I grant you he hadn't shown much inclination toward treasure, but still. If I were going to cut and run in that situation, I'd wait til AFTER I'd stored all that loot somehow.

Also, I'd count the Mark of Justice as force.