Alignment changes [Belkar]

[Keltest]

So.. you're saying he could have abandoned a heaping load of treasure and run off. I grant you he hadn't shown much inclination toward treasure, but still. If I were going to cut and run in that situation, I'd wait til AFTER I'd stored all that loot somehow.

Also, I'd count the Mark of Justice as force.

Fair point about the MoJ, I had totally forgotten about that.

[Peelee]

So.. you're saying he could have abandoned a heaping load of treasure and run off.

I am indeed saying that, if you ignore all other posts I wrote after that which clarified my argument. Of course, this would be incredibly disingenuous, but you are free to do it.

Also, I'd count the Mark of Justice as force.

I would as well. Which is why the timeline I am focusing on is before the Mark of Justice was imposed upon Belkar.

[goto124]

Another reason in #42

[Gusion]

I think you may be missing the point. Belkar is choosing, of his own volition, to stay with the party. That he is unable to leave the story due to being a main character is beside the point, as it is completely out of universe. Belkar could choose, at any point after DCF, to cut his losses and bail out. That it may not be in his best interests to do so is irrelevant, as the option is available for him to willfully not choose. Roy is not threatening Belkar with execution if he leaves, he has no (lawful) means of persecuting him should he decide to bug out, and he certainly isn't going to waste the energy needed to force Belkar to comply.

Simply put, that Belkar's best option is to be (or pretend to be) a team player does not invalidate the other options available.

I also think that 879 had a profound impact on Belkar's attitude and future alignment. Moreso than seems to be typically mentioned.

[brian 333]

I also think that 879 had a profound impact on Belkar's attitude and future alignment. Moreso than seems to be typically mentioned.

The ultimate joke on the Belkster:
Actions, not intentions, dictate Alignment Shifts.

If he keeps faking it long enough, and successfully enough, he will discover he has gradually changed, and nobody will know what the hell happened.

[veti]

I agree. I'm just looking at his reasons for staying. Up until "hippie vision quest" they were all selfish reasons. After that, they were quasi-selfish, staying for his own benefit, sure, but choosing to benefit himself by helping others rather than benefit himself by leaving with the Cleric. Recently, they have been much less selfish and more for the well being of others.

My argument is that what's important is that he does choose to stay with, and to the best of his ability help, the rest of the party. Pretty much all the way through. Despite several opportunities to do otherwise, even safely, even (arguably) quite profitably at times.

His reasons for doing so are immaterial. The fact is that he does, and he does so consistently. In light of that, I really don't see how it's even halfway reasonable to accuse him of "not being a team player".

And that's all I'm arguing about.

[littlebum2002]

The ultimate joke on the Belkster:
Actions, not intentions, dictate Alignment Shifts.

If he keeps faking it long enough, and successfully enough, he will discover he has gradually changed, and nobody will know what the hell happened.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
-Kurt Vonnegut.

This comic constantly amazes me with how deep it really is.

[Reddish Mage]

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
-Kurt Vonnegut.

This comic constantly amazes me with how deep it really is.

I agree, but if he started at pretending, he hasn't been for awhile.

There's plenty of examples of Belkar being a genuinely better halfling and not just pretending to be. The latest being with his latest appearance. The party isn't present so he has no reason to pretend...

[Liliet]

+1 Insightful. I have a few quibbles (e.g. in the case of goblins at least, I see no reason to suppose that their "racial preference" is anything more than the sum of their background/education), but on the whole I think you're on the money.

I sometimes wonder whether I'm the only person in the universe who sees this, but Belkar isn't particularly evil. Yes, he's a nasty little murderer and he enjoys tormenting his enemies - but compared with, say, Xykon or Nale, or even Thog, he's barely a blip on the evildar. He tortures for revenge, but not (like Xykon) just for fun. He kills for utility (including XP), but not for laughs. Most importantly - unlike almost every other evil character in the strip (Redcloak, Xykon, Tsukiko, Samantha and her dad, Bozzok, Tarquin, Kubota, Sabine, Nale...) - he has never acquired the taste for dominating and controlling others (possibly - which would be one way of interpreting the Deva's chart - because he's been under the shadow of Roy's dominant personality all this time). He has no interest in evil. He is "indifferent evil".

The Owl's Wisdom episode shows that his evil is firmly connected to his mental stats. He does the things he does because he has no empathy. (Unlike Xykon, who has plenty of empathy and uses it to revel in the suffering of his victims, chiefly Redcloak.) His relationship with Mr Scruffy is creating that empathy, and that's slowly turning him into a significantly-less-nasty person. Both his "flashes of non-evil" (releasing the allosaurus, putting some spine into Roy, standing up for Durkon, sparing the gnome) and his "proofs of continuing evil" (torturing the kobold, desecrating Buggy Lou's corpse) are related to that fast-growing empathy.

Yep.

Belkar is unquestionably Evil regarding things he does and damage he inflicts, but it's not an important part of his identity the way it is for Xykon or Tarquin. It's more or less a side effect of his empathy-less outlook, and I agree that we are seeing that outlook changed before our eyes.
I think it makes sense for there to be two different alignment judgements - "in the moment" alignment that determines things like spell effects, and "sum total" alignment that determines your afterlife. Belkar is definitely going to Lower Planes after death, but I can see him not being hurt by that talisman by the end of his arc.
Not going higher than Chaotic Neutral, though - I actually see that as his "natural" alignment. He has no motivation to be anything else. His conscious view of his identity as I understand it is very Chaotic, which is how he relates to Shojo easier than to Tarquin. Being Good requires conscious trying and valuing the ideals of Good, which is something Belkar is not going to do in the limited timespan he has before he kicks the bucket. However, I can see his passive empathy, doing nice things to others on a whim, because he felt like it, being enough for Neutral alignment.
He doesn't derive pleasure from asserting his power over others - which might indeed be due to Roy being in charge of him. His comments on "satisfying thumps" and the like tell me more about his need for stimulation - he wants to hear, to see, to feel, to get that victory rush from overcoming an adversary much larger than him. He derives pleasure from 1) adrenalin rushes of danger, which is probably a common trait of all adventurers and not in any way Evil-specific, and 2) doing well what he does best. Which happens to be killing. Which, in the absence of any moral compass, leads his actions to be Evil. But given he is currently in a Good party doing the Good quest, does not have to.

I'm not saying the Giant will definitely give Belkar a character arc that leads to him changing alignment. I'm just saying if he does, it won't be completely illogical out of the blue.

PS Oh, and in that case I'm looking forward to a gag of Belkar activating his Protection from Evil talisman, being surprised at not being shocked, and saying that it must be broken. Cue it working and weird glances from the rest of the party as Belkar remains in steady denial.


PPS To clarify
People keep saying that high mental stats do not mean non-Evil alignment nor does empathy by itself
and they certainly don't
not for all characters
not being one-dismensional doesn't mean not being a villain
but SPECIFICALLY PERSONALLY Belkar's evil stems from his one-dismensionality
it won't work that way for pretty much any other villain we've seen in this comic (maybe Thog or Crystal, idk) but for Belkar, character development DOES mean moving up alignment-wise
and that early comic strip, while not necessarily fully canon, is evidence that Giant himself sees it this way

[orrion]

it won't work that way for pretty much any other villain we've seen in this comic (maybe Thog or Crystal, idk) but for Belkar, character development DOES mean moving up alignment-wise
and that early comic strip, while not necessarily fully canon, is evidence that Giant himself sees it this way

Or it's evidence that the Giant thought that it was funny (and he was right). The strip back then had no real plot to speak of, so I think it's a little questionable to use it to try and glean anything like that out of it.

[Liliet]

Or it's evidence that the Giant thought that it was funny (and he was right). The strip back then had no real plot to speak of, so I think it's a little questionable to use it to try and glean anything like that out of it.

Well, obviously it was a gag. However, it's worth considering that it was a gag that actually worked and that Giant decided to go with. Character-based humor usually tells us things about characters. The effect of the spell was absolutely exaggerated for funnies in a decidedly non-canon way, but the general direction is there. I doubt a similar gag would have worked with Nale, Sabine, Xykon or Redcloak. Evil through ignorance is specifically Belkar's thing.

[Keltest]

Well, obviously it was a gag. However, it's worth considering that it was a gag that actually worked and that Giant decided to go with. Character-based humor usually tells us things about characters. The effect of the spell was absolutely exaggerated for funnies in a decidedly non-canon way, but the general direction is there. I doubt a similar gag would have worked with Nale, Sabine, Xykon or Redcloak. Evil through ignorance is specifically Belkar's thing.

I don't know about "through" ignorance, specifically, as that seems to imply that he is not intentionally being evil. He absolutely is. He makes no secret of that. I know its probably not what you meant, but its as good as any a line for me to latch on to and add my own point.

Belkar finds amusement in evil, which is why he does it. Per the Giant's insights in BRITF though, I think I agree with him that Belkar is slowly coming to realize that most people don't consider the pain and suffering funny, and that he is doing horrible things to people. In other words, he is learning that maybe evil isn't a toy.

[Liliet]

I don't know about "through" ignorance, specifically, as that seems to imply that he is not intentionally being evil. He absolutely is. He makes no secret of that. I know its probably not what you meant, but its as good as any a line for me to latch on to and add my own point.

Belkar finds amusement in evil, which is why he does it. Per the Giant's insights in BRITF though, I think I agree with him that Belkar is slowly coming to realize that most people don't consider the pain and suffering funny, and that he is doing horrible things to people. In other words, he is learning that maybe evil isn't a toy.

I don't remember who, but /someone/ pointed out that Evil doesn't seem to have quite the same stigma as IRL attached to it in OotSworld. There are folks like Miko who consider it enough for summary execution, but those are the extremist weirdos not representing even their own alignment.

So yeah, Belkar was doing Evil knowing that it was Evil, but not knowing what Evil was. If this makes sense? He did not think about / realize the implications of his actions, actually consider the fact that other people are more than just objects. Tarquin, Xykon, Nale, etc consider it and use it to their advantage and glee. Belkar has this entering his awareness, and suddenly "bad enough I was..." enters his lexicon.

[Keltest]

I don't remember who, but /someone/ pointed out that Evil doesn't seem to have quite the same stigma as IRL attached to it in OotSworld. There are folks like Miko who consider it enough for summary execution, but those are the extremist weirdos not representing even their own alignment.

So yeah, Belkar was doing Evil knowing that it was Evil, but not knowing what Evil was. If this makes sense? He did not think about / realize the implications of his actions, actually consider the fact that other people are more than just objects. Tarquin, Xykon, Nale, etc consider it and use it to their advantage and glee. Belkar has this entering his awareness, and suddenly "bad enough I was..." enters his lexicon.

I think a good analogy is that Belkar is a little boy playing with some Legos or action figures. Sometimes its fun to smash things together, especially when you don't have the attention span to take the time to actually build anything. But you don't consider that maybe you shouldn't be breaking your toys like that, because the toys cant care. Theyre interchangeable and replaceable. Belkar is treating people like his toy chest, not realizing the impact that his actions have on people.

But slowly, he is experiencing some of that impact himself. His bond with Mr Scruffy. Durkon sacrificing himself for Belkar. Belkar is suddenly understanding what his actions do to people, and he isn't necessarily comfortable with that.

[Liliet]

I think a good analogy is that Belkar is a little boy playing with some Legos or action figures. Sometimes its fun to smash things together, especially when you don't have the attention span to take the time to actually build anything. But you don't consider that maybe you shouldn't be breaking your toys like that, because the toys cant care. Theyre interchangeable and replaceable. Belkar is treating people like his toy chest, not realizing the impact that his actions have on people.

But slowly, he is experiencing some of that impact himself. His bond with Mr Scruffy. Durkon sacrificing himself for Belkar. Belkar is suddenly understanding what his actions do to people, and he isn't necessarily comfortable with that.

I guess I'm just really not comfortable with your preferred way of describing this...
but yeah, overall, we don't disagree. Belkar's Evil comes from lack of awareness, char dev => more awareness => less Evil.

I think this talisman appearing makes it much more likely that Belkar WILL switch alignments. Not because he'll decide to, but because it's a perfect setup for /revealing/ his alignment change in an off-handed, easy-to-miss, not cheesy, but unambiguous way.

[Keltest]

I guess I'm just really not comfortable with your preferred way of describing this...
but yeah, overall, we don't disagree. Belkar's Evil comes from lack of awareness, char dev => more awareness => less Evil.

I think this talisman appearing makes it much more likely that Belkar WILL switch alignments. Not because he'll decide to, but because it's a perfect setup for /revealing/ his alignment change in an off-handed, easy-to-miss, not cheesy, but unambiguous way.

Indeed, although I think it will stand out when he uses it without burning because any circumstance that warrants its use it going to be immediately visible to us as such, and he wont be on fire when he uses it.

[Liliet]

Indeed, although I think it will stand out when he uses it without burning because any circumstance that warrants its use it going to be immediately visible to us as such, and he wont be on fire when he uses it.

I think it was pretty clearly shown that "on fire" was an audience-only visual effect - the gnome seemed to only have Belkar's reactions to go by.
And the situation of him activating it without pain is
a) likely to be a part of an intense action sequence (my guess here);
b) expressed in something NOT happening. Him not being successfully dominated, him not being in pain. In the middle of intense action sequence? Even Belkar himself might not take notice beyond "huh" of that. I mean, the forumites certainly would notice, and that's why I said "unambiguous".
But by "cheesy" and so on I meant something like Grand Judgement Heaven Scene or Belkar sacrificing his life to save a teammate (not saying it won't happen, I just think the change of alignment should be before and separate from that) or pretty much any scene (unobstructed Detect Evil?) that warrants immediate reactions from the whole party a la "GASP! Belkar not Evil?! Drama!"

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think it was pretty clearly shown that "on fire" was an audience-only visual effect - the gnome seemed to only have Belkar's reactions to go by.

Has there ever been an audience-only visual effect?

[Liliet]

Has there ever been an audience-only visual effect?

Giant said that he intended swirly eyes to be audience-only, but shot himself in the foot with 4th wall breaking jokes.

Note how the gnome asked what was wrong after Belkar activated the amulet, and he had to explain that it hurt. You'd think with fire starting around him it would be visually obvious for her, but either fire is an effect that is there regardless of whether it is actively hurting someone (which I doubt), or she didn't perceive it.
Then, Belkar pretended to /not/ be in pain any more on the third fire panel. It's pretty obviously fake, but the gnome seems to have bought it and thought it was the amulet being broken and not Belkar being Evil - which requires that she not see the fire. I doubt Belkar's Bluff check is Haley-with-potion-of-Glibness levels.

Also, all movement lines are I think audience-only, for example? Like Crystal punching Elan off-panel in the latest strip.

[Keltest]

I think it was pretty clearly shown that "on fire" was an audience-only visual effect - the gnome seemed to only have Belkar's reactions to go by.
And the situation of him activating it without pain is
a) likely to be a part of an intense action sequence (my guess here);
b) expressed in something NOT happening. Him not being successfully dominated, him not being in pain. In the middle of intense action sequence? Even Belkar himself might not take notice beyond "huh" of that. I mean, the forumites certainly would notice, and that's why I said "unambiguous".
But by "cheesy" and so on I meant something like Grand Judgement Heaven Scene or Belkar sacrificing his life to save a teammate (not saying it won't happen, I just think the change of alignment should be before and separate from that) or pretty much any scene (unobstructed Detect Evil?) that warrants immediate reactions from the whole party a la "GASP! Belkar not Evil?! Drama!"

Oh, I see, youre referring to not obvious in the in-comic sense, not to us as an audience.

[Liliet]

Oh, I see, youre referring to not obvious in the in-comic sense, not to us as an audience.

Given the number of questions I saw regarding why Belkar wasn't burned by the clasp the second time?
I'm pretty sure it won't be obvious to the entirety of the audience, either

[Darth Paul]

I think a good analogy is that Belkar is a little boy playing with some Legos or action figures. Sometimes its fun to smash things together, especially when you don't have the attention span to take the time to actually build anything. But you don't consider that maybe you shouldn't be breaking your toys like that, because the toys cant care. Theyre interchangeable and replaceable. Belkar is treating people like his toy chest, not realizing the impact that his actions have on people.

But slowly, he is experiencing some of that impact himself. His bond with Mr Scruffy. Durkon sacrificing himself for Belkar. Belkar is suddenly understanding what his actions do to people, and he isn't necessarily comfortable with that.

In real life, someone with this level of "lack of empathy" would probably be considered a sociopath, and in fact I think Belkar has been described as that at least a few times in the comic. Since his pathology was 1) in a comic strip, 2) played for laughs 99% of the time, and 3) aimed at appropriate targets 99% of the time, we were generally untroubled by it, as were his teammates. But as you point out, Belkar is now something of a recovering sociopath, due to his fake character development becoming real character development via his relationship with Mr. Scruffy. True sociopaths usually never genuinely care about anyone other than themselves and experience no empathy, ever (and for an example, we need turn no further than Xykon); somehow, Belkar seemingly found the beginnings of a cure.

[Liliet]

In real life, someone with this level of "lack of empathy" would probably be considered a sociopath, and in fact I think Belkar has been described as that at least a few times in the comic. Since his pathology was 1) in a comic strip, 2) played for laughs 99% of the time, and 3) aimed at appropriate targets 99% of the time, we were generally untroubled by it, as were his teammates. But as you point out, Belkar is now something of a recovering sociopath, due to his fake character development becoming real character development via his relationship with Mr. Scruffy. True sociopaths usually never genuinely care about anyone other than themselves and experience no empathy, ever (and for an example, we need turn no further than Xykon); somehow, Belkar seemingly found the beginnings of a cure.

Are you qualified to talk about mental illness?

I'm not, I only feel comfortable discussing the effects I directly see in characters' actions on-panel, not their root causes in brain chemistry or controversial definitions.

[GM_3826]

I seriously doubt that Belkar will become anything more than a very dark shade of Chaotic Neutral. Then again, I suppose most of you feel the same way.
Belkar doesn't necessarily have to always be evil, but as a generalization he will always be dangerously close.