Results 121 to 144 of 144
Thread: Alignment changes [Belkar]
-
2014-12-31, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2014-12-31, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
I am indeed saying that, if you ignore all other posts I wrote after that which clarified my argument. Of course, this would be incredibly disingenuous, but you are free to do it.
I would as well. Which is why the timeline I am focusing on is before the Mark of Justice was imposed upon Belkar.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
-
2015-01-02, 03:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
-
2015-01-03, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
-
2015-01-03, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
-
2015-01-04, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
My argument is that what's important is that he does choose to stay with, and to the best of his ability help, the rest of the party. Pretty much all the way through. Despite several opportunities to do otherwise, even safely, even (arguably) quite profitably at times.
His reasons for doing so are immaterial. The fact is that he does, and he does so consistently. In light of that, I really don't see how it's even halfway reasonable to accuse him of "not being a team player".
And that's all I'm arguing about."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
-
2015-01-04, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
-
2015-01-04, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- The Chi
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
I agree, but if he started at pretending, he hasn't been for awhile.
There's plenty of examples of Belkar being a genuinely better halfling and not just pretending to be. The latest being with his latest appearance. The party isn't present so he has no reason to pretend...The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
-
2015-01-10, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Ukraine
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
Yep.
Belkar is unquestionably Evil regarding things he does and damage he inflicts, but it's not an important part of his identity the way it is for Xykon or Tarquin. It's more or less a side effect of his empathy-less outlook, and I agree that we are seeing that outlook changed before our eyes.
I think it makes sense for there to be two different alignment judgements - "in the moment" alignment that determines things like spell effects, and "sum total" alignment that determines your afterlife. Belkar is definitely going to Lower Planes after death, but I can see him not being hurt by that talisman by the end of his arc.
Not going higher than Chaotic Neutral, though - I actually see that as his "natural" alignment. He has no motivation to be anything else. His conscious view of his identity as I understand it is very Chaotic, which is how he relates to Shojo easier than to Tarquin. Being Good requires conscious trying and valuing the ideals of Good, which is something Belkar is not going to do in the limited timespan he has before he kicks the bucket. However, I can see his passive empathy, doing nice things to others on a whim, because he felt like it, being enough for Neutral alignment.
He doesn't derive pleasure from asserting his power over others - which might indeed be due to Roy being in charge of him. His comments on "satisfying thumps" and the like tell me more about his need for stimulation - he wants to hear, to see, to feel, to get that victory rush from overcoming an adversary much larger than him. He derives pleasure from 1) adrenalin rushes of danger, which is probably a common trait of all adventurers and not in any way Evil-specific, and 2) doing well what he does best. Which happens to be killing. Which, in the absence of any moral compass, leads his actions to be Evil. But given he is currently in a Good party doing the Good quest, does not have to.
I'm not saying the Giant will definitely give Belkar a character arc that leads to him changing alignment. I'm just saying if he does, it won't be completely illogical out of the blue.
PS Oh, and in that case I'm looking forward to a gag of Belkar activating his Protection from Evil talisman, being surprised at not being shocked, and saying that it must be broken. Cue it working and weird glances from the rest of the party as Belkar remains in steady denial.
PPS To clarify
People keep saying that high mental stats do not mean non-Evil alignment nor does empathy by itself
and they certainly don't
not for all characters
not being one-dismensional doesn't mean not being a villain
but SPECIFICALLY PERSONALLY Belkar's evil stems from his one-dismensionality
it won't work that way for pretty much any other villain we've seen in this comic (maybe Thog or Crystal, idk) but for Belkar, character development DOES mean moving up alignment-wise
and that early comic strip, while not necessarily fully canon, is evidence that Giant himself sees it this wayLast edited by Liliet; 2015-01-10 at 06:01 PM.
ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
-
2015-01-10, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
-
2015-01-10, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Ukraine
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
Well, obviously it was a gag. However, it's worth considering that it was a gag that actually worked and that Giant decided to go with. Character-based humor usually tells us things about characters. The effect of the spell was absolutely exaggerated for funnies in a decidedly non-canon way, but the general direction is there. I doubt a similar gag would have worked with Nale, Sabine, Xykon or Redcloak. Evil through ignorance is specifically Belkar's thing.
ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
-
2015-01-10, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
I don't know about "through" ignorance, specifically, as that seems to imply that he is not intentionally being evil. He absolutely is. He makes no secret of that. I know its probably not what you meant, but its as good as any a line for me to latch on to and add my own point.
Belkar finds amusement in evil, which is why he does it. Per the Giant's insights in BRITF though, I think I agree with him that Belkar is slowly coming to realize that most people don't consider the pain and suffering funny, and that he is doing horrible things to people. In other words, he is learning that maybe evil isn't a toy.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2015-01-10, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Ukraine
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
I don't remember who, but /someone/ pointed out that Evil doesn't seem to have quite the same stigma as IRL attached to it in OotSworld. There are folks like Miko who consider it enough for summary execution, but those are the extremist weirdos not representing even their own alignment.
So yeah, Belkar was doing Evil knowing that it was Evil, but not knowing what Evil was. If this makes sense? He did not think about / realize the implications of his actions, actually consider the fact that other people are more than just objects. Tarquin, Xykon, Nale, etc consider it and use it to their advantage and glee. Belkar has this entering his awareness, and suddenly "bad enough I was..." enters his lexicon.ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
-
2015-01-10, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
I think a good analogy is that Belkar is a little boy playing with some Legos or action figures. Sometimes its fun to smash things together, especially when you don't have the attention span to take the time to actually build anything. But you don't consider that maybe you shouldn't be breaking your toys like that, because the toys cant care. Theyre interchangeable and replaceable. Belkar is treating people like his toy chest, not realizing the impact that his actions have on people.
But slowly, he is experiencing some of that impact himself. His bond with Mr Scruffy. Durkon sacrificing himself for Belkar. Belkar is suddenly understanding what his actions do to people, and he isn't necessarily comfortable with that.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2015-01-10, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Ukraine
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
I guess I'm just really not comfortable with your preferred way of describing this...
but yeah, overall, we don't disagree. Belkar's Evil comes from lack of awareness, char dev => more awareness => less Evil.
I think this talisman appearing makes it much more likely that Belkar WILL switch alignments. Not because he'll decide to, but because it's a perfect setup for /revealing/ his alignment change in an off-handed, easy-to-miss, not cheesy, but unambiguous way.ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
-
2015-01-10, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2015-01-10, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Ukraine
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
I think it was pretty clearly shown that "on fire" was an audience-only visual effect - the gnome seemed to only have Belkar's reactions to go by.
And the situation of him activating it without pain is
a) likely to be a part of an intense action sequence (my guess here);
b) expressed in something NOT happening. Him not being successfully dominated, him not being in pain. In the middle of intense action sequence? Even Belkar himself might not take notice beyond "huh" of that. I mean, the forumites certainly would notice, and that's why I said "unambiguous".
But by "cheesy" and so on I meant something like Grand Judgement Heaven Scene or Belkar sacrificing his life to save a teammate (not saying it won't happen, I just think the change of alignment should be before and separate from that) or pretty much any scene (unobstructed Detect Evil?) that warrants immediate reactions from the whole party a la "GASP! Belkar not Evil?! Drama!"ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
-
2015-01-11, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- empty space
-
2015-01-11, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Ukraine
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
Giant said that he intended swirly eyes to be audience-only, but shot himself in the foot with 4th wall breaking jokes.
Note how the gnome asked what was wrong after Belkar activated the amulet, and he had to explain that it hurt. You'd think with fire starting around him it would be visually obvious for her, but either fire is an effect that is there regardless of whether it is actively hurting someone (which I doubt), or she didn't perceive it.
Then, Belkar pretended to /not/ be in pain any more on the third fire panel. It's pretty obviously fake, but the gnome seems to have bought it and thought it was the amulet being broken and not Belkar being Evil - which requires that she not see the fire. I doubt Belkar's Bluff check is Haley-with-potion-of-Glibness levels.
Also, all movement lines are I think audience-only, for example? Like Crystal punching Elan off-panel in the latest strip.ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
-
2015-01-11, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2015-01-11, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Ukraine
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
-
2015-01-12, 12:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2014
- Location
- A Michigan Far, Far Away
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
In real life, someone with this level of "lack of empathy" would probably be considered a sociopath, and in fact I think Belkar has been described as that at least a few times in the comic. Since his pathology was 1) in a comic strip, 2) played for laughs 99% of the time, and 3) aimed at appropriate targets 99% of the time, we were generally untroubled by it, as were his teammates. But as you point out, Belkar is now something of a recovering sociopath, due to his fake character development becoming real character development via his relationship with Mr. Scruffy. True sociopaths usually never genuinely care about anyone other than themselves and experience no empathy, ever (and for an example, we need turn no further than Xykon); somehow, Belkar seemingly found the beginnings of a cure.
-
2015-01-12, 04:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Ukraine
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
Last edited by Liliet; 2015-01-12 at 04:28 AM.
ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
-
2015-01-16, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
- Location
- The United States
- Gender
Re: Alignment changes [Belkar]
I seriously doubt that Belkar will become anything more than a very dark shade of Chaotic Neutral. Then again, I suppose most of you feel the same way.
Belkar doesn't necessarily have to always be evil, but as a generalization he will always be dangerously close.