PF - Warcraft Inspired Warlock

[Gwynfrid]

If I read this right, it is a method to modify Planar Binding in such way that the control exerted is absolute; while the regular spell is a form of imprisonment that gives negotiating leverage. With Planar Binding, when successful, the creature renders a single service. With this, it becomes a slave. So, this is a great boost in power.

Relative to this, cost seems paltry: 75gp per hit dice, plus a fight that shouldn't be a great problem, given the warlock has all the time in the world to prepare it, and shouldn't be so foolish as to pick too powerful a target in the first place. Poor die rolls can always derail the best of plans, but success seems fairly assured.

Note that among the three ways the creature can be set free, only one is a true limitation: Breaking the amulet. The other two are entirely under the control of the warlock, so they shouldn't be a factor. So, the protection of the amulet is pretty much the only caveat in the entire scheme. In most cases, I expect the only reason the creature would ever be set free is when the warlock, having gained a few levels, decides to seek a more powerful replacement for her slave. In effect the warlock gets full control of an outsider for 1 minute per level, per day (by the way, the type of action necessary to summon the creature from the amulet and send it back should be spelled out).

Conclusion: Add this to the long list of things that make the class unbalanced, in comparison to other arcane full casters.

[BananaPhone]

I can never make you happy, can I?

But, no, it's not 75g per hit dice. Making a wand costs 375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. So to make a Summoning Amulet to hold something like, a succubus, by a level 12 warlock needs the Planar Binding spell to conjure it. That's 375 x 6 x 12 = 27,000 gold. That's a serious chunk out of their WBL every two months for something that at some point will get free and turn against them.

[Gwynfrid]

Hey, you asked for opinions, I'm giving you an opinion. Nothing to do with my happiness. Except that I'm happy to offer an opinion

My calculation for the cost was off, though - my bad. I saw it this way : "Wand of Magic Jar, with only a single charge and caster level equal to the Hit Dice of the creature". Magic Jar is a level 5 spell, so this means 375 x 5 / 50 per hit dice, or 37.5 per hit dice (I said 75, but that's the price not the cost). However, this is wrong, since it's not possible to craft a wand with just 1 charge. So the cost is more like 1875 per hit dice, which is rather hefty. So, indeed, gold is a real limitation on this power.

[BananaPhone]

I put the "1 charge" thing in there as a bit of a brainfart mistake. I think I was of the mind that someone might try to twist it that one summoning amulet could be used multiple times for different demons, when that wasn't the intent. On reflection the mention of Charges isn't really needed.

[Gwynfrid]

Right. So, in order to compare power, we should simply see this as equivalent to a wand of Summon Monster, since summoned monsters are effectively slaves for a short while:
- Duration comparison: 1 minute per day per level for 2 months, that's a lot more than 50 times 1 round per level.
- Monster power comparison: Planar Binding will call 12HD outsiders, that's more than Summon Monster VI which offers 8HD to 10HD outsiders. For example, a glabrezu is much superior to a succubus.
- The only redeeming factor for the wand of Summon Monster is the flexibility to call the monster best adapted to the situation, but I don't think it compensates for the difference in raw power.
- Cost comparison: A wand of Summon Monster VI will cost 375x6x11 = 24750gp, while the warlock's summoning amulet for a 12HD outsider will cost 375x5x12 = 22500gp. That's more or less a wash. At higher levels however, for example for a 15HD outsider, the amulet will cost 375x5x15 = 28125gp, while a wand of Summon Monster VIII will cost 375x8x15 = 45000gp.
- Opportunity cost comparison: A sorcerer who wants a wand at cost needs to take the Craft Wand feat, while the warlock gets the summoning amulet as a class feature, i.e. for free.

My conclusion still stands, I'm afraid.

[BananaPhone]

No, it costs more because Planar Binding is needed to summon a 12HD creature and Planar Binding is a lvl 6 spell, not a lvl 5, meaning it cost 27,000, making it more expensive than a wand of summon monster VI (which the Sorc can get for 24,750 bucks from a level 11 wizard that's feeling nice, or make themselves).

Secondly the Sorc doesn't have to pay this same amount every 2 months. The warlock has to, lest what they've trapped comes back to eat their face. On an annual basis alone this costs 162,000 gold. In addition to this, the Sorc doesn't have to worry about their minion passing a couple of will saves and then turning on them, or that their wand will break causing their minion also turning on them (in the middle of a fight which was so unfavorable that their wand was broken, to boot). Finally, the lock also runs the risk of their grimoire being stolen before the 2 month expiry date on their summoning amulet thus disabling them from reaffirming the amulets magics (and thus, freeing the demon within), even if they do have the money for it.

Thus the Sorcs item is safer to use, cheaper, works for an amount of time that would be all that's necessary, has greater variety in what it can summon and doesn't have a minimum annual maintenance cost of 112,500 gold at least. Oh and the Sorc, if they so choose, could sell their wand if they wanted to to make back some money The Warlocks got the advantage of being able to typically bring in creatures of a few more HD than the comparable Summon Monster spell of the Sorcs wand.

[Gwynfrid]

No, it costs more because Planar Binding is needed to summon a 12HD creature and Planar Binding is a lvl 6 spell, not a lvl 5, meaning it cost 27,000, making it more expensive than a wand of summon monster VI (which the Sorc can get for 24,750 bucks from a level 11 wizard that's feeling nice, or make themselves).

Secondly the Sorc doesn't have to pay this same amount every 2 months. The warlock has to, lest what they've trapped comes back to eat their face. On an annual basis alone this costs 162,000 gold. In addition to this, the Sorc doesn't have to worry about their minion passing a couple of will saves and then turning on them, or that their wand will break causing their minion also turning on them (in the middle of a fight which was so unfavorable that their wand was broken, to boot). Finally, the lock also runs the risk of their grimoire being stolen before the 2 month expiry date on their summoning amulet thus disabling them from reaffirming the amulets magics (and thus, freeing the demon within), even if they do have the money for it.

Thus the Sorcs item is safer to use, cheaper, works for an amount of time that would be all that's necessary, has greater variety in what it can summon and doesn't have a minimum annual maintenance cost of 112,500 gold at least. Oh and the Sorc, if they so choose, could sell their wand if they wanted to to make back some money The Warlocks got the advantage of being able to typically bring in creatures of a few more HD than the comparable Summon Monster spell of the Sorcs wand.

Well, the amulet cost is pegged to Magic Jar, a level 5 spell. If you peg it to Planar Binding (and later, Great Planar Binding) the cost difference will shrink. The other differences remain, notably the difference in summoned creature power.

For your second point: Of course the warlock doesn't have to pay that cost every 2 months. It's only necessary if she's doing very active adventuring during that time. Presumably, the sorcerer would use up his wand within these 2 months if he was doing just as active adventuring. Now, in between two adventures, the warlock simply needs to get rid of the outsider. Easy enough, since she can decide exactly of the moment she wants to destroy the amulet and begin the fight that will send the slave back to whence it came. Anyway, for this whole thing the work in the first place, the warlock must first have won a fight against the minion with a reasonable safety margin, so I assume she will be able to do it again, especially with the benefit of surprise. Once that's done, a normal outsider doesn't have means to come to the Material Plane without being called there, so the risks of delayed revenge are rather low.

[BananaPhone]

The part about Magic Jar/Planar Binding I was mistaken, I did write Magic Jar as the spell it's based off, so I was wrong there.

But the lock does have to either renew the magic every 2 months (costing the same amount of money to do so), or build a new one for a new minion (costing the same amount of money to do so). That's how I've written it and if that is unclear then I'll edit it. Either way the locks option is far more expensive and carries more risks and is less versatile, but comes with the reward of potentially getting a higher HD minion (but that also has the risk that it'll turn on them at a lousy time).

[Gwynfrid]

But the lock does have to either renew the magic every 2 months (costing the same amount of money to do so), or build a new one for a new minion (costing the same amount of money to do so). That's how I've written it and if that is unclear then I'll edit it.

I just don't get why? As far as I can see, renewal is only necessary if the warlock has further use for a minion. In that case, the comparable sorcerer needs a new wand too: If we assume equally active adventuring where the summoning power would be used appx every day, he'll have exhausted the charges after less than 2 months. Now, if the warlock doesn't need the minion for some time, a quick fight, on her terms and at the time of her choosing, is all it takes to get rid of the problem.

So, discussion of annual cost isn't relevant: This situation is not the same as your cellular phone contract

Now, this is a fun debate, but I think it leads to the same conclusion as before: Let's agree to disagree, OK? Anyway, the summoning amulet isn't the biggest of the class' balance issues in my opinion - just a minor contributor to the larger problem.

[BananaPhone]

I don't really get why you're comparing a sorcerer with a wand to this ability either .

It's gone from being a minion-mancy aspect of the class that definitely boosted its power to just a fun, flavorful ability that costs money and takes time but comes with a lot of risk for the reward, and that frankly most players probably wouldn't bother with. I think the idea of a warlock strolling about with their little demon-infested pokemon ball that could turn on them in a stroke of bad luck is pretty funny. I don't see how a Sorc player could look at it and think oO(Damn those locks have it good).

I mean, if someone wants to point out something I can't see, like some tricky trick that can get pulled with it, or how it has some unseen consequence I'm not aware of like having a pet pit fiend by level 10 or something, then awesome, tell me, because so far everyone in this thread has convinced me to change something.

[Gwynfrid]

I don't really get why you're comparing a sorcerer with a wand to this ability either .

It's gone from being a minion-mancy aspect of the class that definitely boosted its power to just a fun, flavorful ability that costs money and takes time but comes with a lot of risk for the reward, and that frankly most players probably wouldn't bother with. I think the idea of a warlock strolling about with their little demon-infested pokemon ball that could turn on them in a stroke of bad luck is pretty funny. I don't see how a Sorc player could look at it and think oO(Damn those locks have it good).

I mean, if someone wants to point out something I can't see, like some tricky trick that can get pulled with it, or how it has some unseen consequence I'm not aware of like having a pet pit fiend by level 10 or something, then awesome, tell me, because so far everyone in this thread has convinced me to change something.

Well, it gives you a hezrou by your side in more or less every fight at level 10, with near total control (there's Will saves if you make it do things that are against its nature, but it's not like fighting was against its nature, right?) That's not earth-shattering; it's just, more than most characters of that level will be able to do. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not a huge deal. It doesn't compare with what happens when you use Corruption along with regular spells at level 1, for example.

[BananaPhone]

Again with the Corruption dislike . I've explained my idea behind it, now I need to see it in play-testing to see how it goes.

[BananaPhone]

So, the thing remaining on the "to do" list is to review and revise the rituals. After that I'll be relatively happy with where the class stands, and will just need to play test it at various levels to see how well my idea/hopes translates into practical applications.

In the mean time I'm working on my first adventure module - hooray . It's called "Along the Smokey River" and it features insane cannibal gnomes, pathfinder hillbillies, riverboats and party acid trips! All it needs now is a sliding guitar theme. Hopefully I can get a pdf together in a few months time and hand it out to see if people like it.

*rubs hands together*

[BananaPhone]

So, christmas and new years and a stupidly huge work week meant I got nothing done on this. Such as the saying - if you want to see gods sense of humor, make plans!

But, I've managed to find a game in which the DM is willing to let me test the class. Excellent.

I'll update as I find the time to do so.

[JackPhoenix]

Just an advice for playtesting: You shouldn't be player or GM doing the testing. Why? You have a certain idea how this class SHOULD work, and propably won't try different ways to play it. You can see results of this attitude in 3e/3.5e D&D, which was tested with assumption that wizards should be blasting with fireballs and clerics should be healbots.

[Gwynfrid]

Is your playtest over PbP, and if so, would you mind giving us a link? I'd be interested to see the outcome.

(Good point by JackPhoenix, btw.)

[BananaPhone]

I have to be one of the ones who'll play it...no one else will . Getting a homebrew class approved by a GM when the class looks pretty strong is like getting blood from a stone as it is, but at least as the creator of the class I can express to any prospective DM my idea's, concerns and area's of interest.

If other people want to test it then hellyeah, tell me how it goes, please.

And I shall be logging fights and events here, dear Gwynfrid!

[Almarck]

Hm, I actually think that demon summoning should be more like it is in MMO games, like an animal companion like effect or ability which summons a permanent, but unkillable (sent to the amulet) companion creature.

Granted, I understand why this was done. Such a thing would arguably be harder to balance since it means A. writing up a ministat block for each demon and B. define a universal progression all demons share.

It would also limit the types of demons the player can interact with and summon, since not providing stats would remove the option to take a creature as a companion. But isn't necessarily a bad thing from a game balance stand point.

I would offer assistance in this area if you'd desire it.
In theory, it shouldn't be hard, but practice may say otherwise.
I do understand if you do not like this option.

Now, onto the things I actually like. Well, I liked Warcraft's Warlocks and this does a good job of representing them. Ritual magic is also always a plus in my book and I quite like having the option to have long to conduct cememonies to have some big effect rather than just waving a wand around. I love that part of magic.

[BananaPhone]

Thanks Almarak .

Sorry about being late to reply but I've been distracted elsewhere on strange and arcane lands (a.k.a other boards).

Glad you like the flavor, that's definitely a big part of it for me as personally I'm often turned off by classes that I just don't get "into", if that makes sense, because their characterization is bizarre, weak or meh.

With the summons, ultimately it's about trying to retain a semblance of balance. I'd love for this class to be able to have a permanently summoned minion, but it's already a full caster with a chunky hit die, good skills and 2 good saves and some good in-class abilities. Having a permanent summon on top of that would either be over-kill if the summons were worth having around, or it would be a waste of time because the summonable demons would be nerfed for the sake of balance. So at the moment, the best bet I've gone for is having summonable pet that costs a ****-load to get (money that could be better spent elsewhere, such as a mercenary army lol) and will ultimately turn on you.

What are your thoughts?

[Almarck]

So in other words, it's the animal companion dilemma? I can see your point, especially since demons are not the primary focus of the class. And well, animal companions are kinda a poor choice for druids most of the time, since the druid needs to then buy gear for the pet....

Granted, I do think I most people might accept some nerfing if it meant having a companion that can do more than just be usable for a few minutes. Certainly, I wouldn't mind a void walker to act as a body guard for me in a group that lacks a fighter and healing.

Hm, so what about 2 modes?

A "fettered" state usable all day where the demon is usable for longer, but weaker and only capable of using weak ability. You can even then justify putting summon amulet down earlier level and treating it a demon companion with some scaling.

Contrast with "unfettered" which unshackles the demon and allows it to run rampant. Once a demon has been unfettered though (or maybe if you run out of time?), you lose his service for the rest of the day. This should be part of the level 10 advancement in this proposed model.

To display the difference in stat changes, give an "unfettered" stat block.

Have the other rules, particularly for upkeep and replacing the amulet the same?

[BananaPhone]

Woop, sorry! Did not seen you had replied .

Hmm, I'm thinking of what you're saying and ways to keep a 'summonable demon' pet in outside of the Summon Monster spell-line, but the more I think about the benefits of such on top of the goodies that the Warlock already gets, the more I think it'd probably be a better idea to just scrap the whole idea. Or maybe just nerf it so that it's a passive bonus to the warlock and their interactions with demons, particularly when they use Planar Binding or something. That probably might be better than adding in different stat blocks and more rules on top of an already goodies-rich class.


It makes me chuckle now thinking that, at one point, I was thinking of ways for lvl 13 or so to be a level where the warlock gets their own keep/castle/cave as a class feature with men at arms, just like the Warrior in AD&D because I was concerned whether the class would have enough going for it.

Do you hear that sound? That's the sound of Gwynfrid bursting out into laughter .

[Gwynfrid]

Do you hear that sound? That's the sound of Gwynfrid bursting out into laughter .

You, Sir, have keen ears

The cake is already crumbling under the 3 layers of frosting and the many cherries. Add anything more and it becomes a black hole

[BananaPhone]

Haha, I think by that point it would pretty much just be a solo class , because I can just hear other players chiming in as the levels progress.

"Oh you're a full caster with demon pets above your CR that are your slaves huh...groovy..."

"Oh, you can conduct a cool ritual that gives you a flying horse locked inside a gem huh..."

"Oh, and you get your own castle with a free army huh...of course you do..."

"Shutup already and just give me the application to warlock school!"

[Almarck]

So, I guess maybe you should drop the summoning amulet all together then? I feel it comes too late for my tastes. I'm thinking that maybe it would make sense. I mean, Demon summoning at least in the WoW sense is specific to WoW, and that's a whole beast of its own that probably needs its own archetype.

But I am thinking, perhaps it'd be a smart idea to have Rituals specific to summoning in a manner similar to summon monster I to IX, but with its own list of demons or other creatures that break the traditional mold of summoning.

It'd all be rituals still, but the summoning amulet is more of a focus item that store's the ritual's effects for until the next day or whatever rather than a permanent magic item that holds a demon hostage but needs upkeep.

Mostly, this is to address 2 things. That campaign time scales are variable and keeping warlock day to day for the amulet might make it easier for campaigns that have yearly breaks.

The other is that, well, technically, Warlocks summoned more than demons. If I recall, warlocks also did necromancy and in WoW, they summoned other people to them, not just demons.


Hm, that's an idea. A reverse teleport ritual. Summon someone you know to your position.

Well, I guess if we do nothing about summoning amulets, I think we should have Summon other person within the plane ritual.

I think I'll just drop conversation about summoning amulet from here on out if you don't want it. I feel I may be overly fixated on adjusting it.

[BananaPhone]

Had a RL mid-level game session recently to test this out recently and during that 1 session the results were...less than impressive. As I had previously believed, the myth of this class having so many goodies that it's OP didn't really stand up to reality.

It didn't help that 90% of the enemies were undead and devils. That meant that both the 'locks core abilities only did half damage (i.e got crippled by damage mitigation, just like I thought they would), but against the devils they fared even worse - the cold resistance once again crippled their main abilities and all of their blasty spells deal only in fire damage, against which devils are immune. This sidelined the class as a spectator during these fights.

In early levels the Macabre Thesis I proved a very valuable decision to make. Going with Soul Collector proved the superior choice, as enemies dealing 30+ damage per hit became more common, thus making its damage cap more valuable compared to the 1/2 of the damage of 3d6 per turn returned as hp (so getting an average of 5 hp back per corruption tick at lvl 12).

Furthermore the lack of defensive spells meant the lock had to really rely on their team-mates for support. The D10 hit die only amounts to, on average, 2 extra hp per level - an advantage which evaporates in 1 hit from enemies at around the lvl 12+. Combine that with having to pay large chunks of hp to even use metamagic (and only being able to use metamagic 3-5 times a day), damage mitigation being a constant thorn in the side and the one-flavor-blasty-spells and very few defensive spells and so far the class has under-performed. Much as I had originally pontificated on earlier, the spell versatility of the wizard or sorcerer would've helped them contribute to the party, while the lock just got sidelined. I think the only thing they could do is throw out a Summon Monster.

If I was going on this session alone (which I'm not) then this class would be one of those classes that looks awesome, but once you actually play it the adamantium Abrams tank turns out to be a good looking paper mace replica. This has been caused by enemies gaining, around lvl 8+ or so, more inherent resistances and immunities to things like cold and fire (two really common element resistances/immunities), which really **** this class in the ass.

However, making this call right now would be like putting up a rogue relying on sneak attack damage against enemies against which sneak attacks can't be used and declaring from the predictable results that the Rogue sucks. So I'll see how it fares next session as I think we'll be encountering less Scissor enemies to the warlocks paper.

[BananaPhone]

Oh my poor warlock, how I have neglected thee...

*squats near the broken corpse of the Warlock*

I ran many simulations with you and found that while you were solid and strong in the early levels, once enemy resistances/immunities came along you dropped faster than the fat man that sat down too fast. You had one blasty element, fire, against which immunities/resistances are more common than chlamydia on spring break. Your stock spells did half negative and half cold damage, yet guess what resistances demons/undead/devils/dragons have in mid-to-later levels...yes. You did indeed turn out to be a paper tiger in the end.

No matter. When I have time in the coming months, after I have established a good rhythm in my solo game, I will tend to your wounds. I can rebuild you. I have the technology.

*gathers up corpse in arms and flies away into the heavens*

[BananaPhone]

Took me a while, but I spent a couple of hours and changed things about.


Changes I made:

• Cut their number of spells-per-day in half.
  
  
• Removed Diplomacy from their skill list.
  
  
• Bumped their HD back up to D12.
  
  
• Completely changed how life tap works. It is now used to restore spells-per-day at a hefty cost of HP, thus justifying the bigger HD and making the life-draining siphon life/corruption/harvest life more appealing.
  
  
• Got rid of rituals entirely and reworked it so that they are normal Wizard/Sorcerer spells that can be acquired, scribed into their grimoire and cast as a lengthy ritual that requires hit point sacrifice and lots of time and a Caster Level check.
  
  
• Changed Shadow damage. It's now straight Negative damage and beings normally healed by Negative damage are damaged as normal. This was a major drawback of the class, as Corruption/Siphon Life/Agony are this classes main damage dealers, yet any type of damage mitigation against Cold damage or negative damage (and god help you, immunity) royally screwed this class in this ass, and their fall-back Fire-based spells came up against even more resistance/immunities. This way, the clas can do what it was supposed to do - long term DoT damage with reserve fire-spells. If someone is on the receiving end of shadow damage and they get wise to what type of damage it is, they could throw up a Resist (negative) damage ward or protection, which would royally burke the Locks damage, but can't have everything.
  
  
• Added Teleport, Greater Teleport, Teleportation Circle, Overland Flight and Mirror Image to their spell list. During playtesting this class was in desparate need of some defensive spells. Though I don't want to give them the whole shebang, Mirror Image at least was a small mercy and fit in with their warping of reality. The Teleportation spells were originally Rituals, but given how much I changed them, I gave them in as base spells.

And that's about all the changes I can think of at the moment. As usual feedback is loved, while I try to find some place to field test this.

[Gwynfrid]

It's interesting to see the evolution of your design ideas. I see you edited your OP, so it's not possible to fully track the changes, but, when reading my initial list of objections, I can see that the majority of them don't apply anymore. It means you have had to deeply nerf the class to get it back to a more comparable power level to standard classes. It take it that playtesting or comments by others ended up supporting the points I and others were making on this thread.

I also note you had to add a couple of defensive spells, thus confirming the risk we had identified early on: That the warlock would be a glass cannon.

What's left after all these changes? The class can no longer claim to be everything the sorcerer is plus a lot more. For one thing, the extras have been reduced, and you have cut the number of spells per day, not quite revoking the full caster status, but still reducing it considerably. In spite of the d12 HD, Life Tap is only a very partial compensation for that amount of nerfing, since it corresponds to an average 3 extra HP per level (compared to sorcerer), allowing to pay for only one spell level per class level.

This, of course, changes radically at level 6 when Siphon Life comes in play, allowing restoration of spent spells with impunity, as long as there are enemies around. When no enemy is around, summoned monsters will do the trick. All you have to do is sacrifice 3 HP to restore Monster Summoning I, cast it, use Siphon Life to drain the monster of its HP, restoring more than what the spell cost (siphoning a dog will get you 6 HP for example). Repeat until at max hit points, then use Life Tap to restore any other spell cast that day. Repeat until at max hit points, and max spells slots.

Level 6 is also when Soul Leech becomes available, meaning that the warlock between fights will now automatically restore himself to full spell slots and full + 4/level hit points. Nice.

So, as far as spellcasting is concerned, my conclusion is that the class is much less rich than it was, until level 6. After level 6 it is still a lot stronger than any sorcerer, with the limited drawback of needing a few minutes between each fight to restore himself to max power (yes, it's theoretically possible to use all spells in a single fight, but that situation should be rather rare; I have played a sorcerer all the way to level 18, and from mid-levels, needing more than half my spells in a single fight was exceptional).

Then, there's the matter of the iconic class features. On those, my earlier comments are unchanged. You still have several at-will, unfaillible abilities (meaning that they succeed automatically, no roll of any kind needed: No attack roll, no save and no SR), that deal a type of damage against which 95% of enemies have no defense (constructs, and pretty much nothing else until Death Ward comes into play at level 9), and these abilities take only a move action to use. I understand the intent, but this remains fundamentally unfair to the rest of the game.

[BananaPhone]

Well if it isn't my old friend Gwyn!

I was curious if you were going to show up or not .

[Gwynfrid]

I subscribed to the thread long ago, because I thought the debate was interesting. As you can see, I still do...

I also am under the impression that your changes vindicate a lot of my past remarks. That's always good for the ego