Iron Heroes - Like or Dislike?

[Tormsskull]

Hey all,

I recently had an opportunity to try out Iron Heroes and I absolutely loved it. I haven't had a chance to scour the campaign book of it, but I really like the idea of almost no magic, reserve points are great, and the token system seemed very intriguing.

What are your thoughts on Iron Heroes?

[EvilElitest]

Never played it, but i heard of it. What do people think?
from,
EE

[Morty]

From what I've heard, it's a low-magic system, and that's good. Never tried it, though.

[talsine]

The tokens go away too easily, take too long to aquire, and the abilities they power aren't really worth the effort of getting. I'm not a huge fan of the race "system" they introduced either. I'll pass,

[EvilElitest]

The tokens go away too easily, take too long to aquire, and the abilities they power aren't really worth the effort of getting. I'm not a huge fan of the race "system" they introduced either. I'll pass,

I don't understand the stuff you are complaing about. What "IS" the system?
from,
EE

[CharPixie]

The background and character "toogles" you select at character creation. The things you get two of. They seem like a decent idea, but in play seem to boil down to people minmaxing a lot.

I guess that's my biggest issue with the system; I loved the concept, but the amount of choice you have in character creation means if you optimize, your character is awesome, and if you don't, your character is way subpar.

On the whole, it feels written by a powergamer.

[selfcritical]

Fundamental rule of iron heroes is that casting is not the name of the game, skills and stabbing people is.

The various classes gain resources they can spend during an encounter by doing things appropriate to the class(the weapon master by focusing hits on a single target, the berserker by taking damage, seeing an ally fall or spending an action howling and stoking himself up) they get tokens they can spend to power class abilities. Some classes don't gather tokens nearly fast enough(the armiger and possibly the archer). The strategy and social manipulation feats share this structure(gain token whenever you succesfully decieve target x, cash in blah number of tokens to produce y mental effect).

[EvilElitest]

The background and character "toogles" you select at character creation. The things you get two of. They seem like a decent idea, but in play seem to boil down to people minmaxing a lot.

I guess that's my biggest issue with the system; I loved the concept, but the amount of choice you have in character creation means if you optimize, your character is awesome, and if you don't, your character is way subpar.

On the whole, it feels written by a powergamer.

What are the races and classes?
from,
EE

[WhiteHarness]

I like the mechanics used to represent armour in the game.

[GunMage]

What are the races and classes?
from,
EE

The races are human, and only human. The classes are archer, armiger, berserker, executioner, harrier, hunter, man-at-arms, theif, weaponmaster and arcanist.

I love the system, and I would say go for it, but watch out for powergamers.

[Hurlbut]

The races are human, and only human. The classes are archer, armiger, berserker, executioner, harrier, hunter, man-at-arms, theif, weaponmaster and arcanist.

I love the system, and I would say go for it, but watch out for powergamers.

You are allowed to use other LA +0 races in the ruleset though. They do not get the traits that the Humans do get since they already have their own racial abilities.

[PnP Fan]

Technically, I've never tried it, but I've read through the book, and I like some of the things I've read. The one thing that seems like it might get a bit dull is managing the tokens. Not that it seems over complicated, just well . . . another piece of paperwork to manage during the game. But I like the expanded feat trees and the concept behind some of the classes (esp. the Armor fighter, just 'cause it's different).

[Dausuul]

Hey all,

I recently had an opportunity to try out Iron Heroes and I absolutely loved it. I haven't had a chance to scour the campaign book of it, but I really like the idea of almost no magic, reserve points are great, and the token system seemed very intriguing.

What are your thoughts on Iron Heroes?

It's generally a solid system, and has some very good ideas. The skill system is vastly better than in D&D, and they did an excellent job making a variety of cool non-magical classes. I've been running an IH campaign for a few months now and have generally been pleased with it.

The down sides:

First, it's sort of a beta version. Lots of stuff is clunky and needs streamlining, a couple of classes are distinctly underpowered and/or just not fun (Weapon Master and Armiger, I'm looking at you), and the Arcanist needs to be scrapped completely and replaced--major balance and design issues. (I actually designed two completely new caster classes and a system of magic feats to go with them.)

Second, the lack of magic items is a bit of a problem. At first I thought it was great--I hate trying to keep track of WBL and all that stuff--but I've been coming to realize that a certain amount of magic stuff is very valuable for helping to motivate players and making treasure hoards seem "cool." These days, if my players happen across a dragon hoard, they just shrug, fill their pockets, and leave the rest where it is, because they already have way more money than they can ever spend and none of the equipment is any better than what they already have. (The wealth feats just don't do very much for a party on an epic quest.) Possibly I should just start using the "items with horrific drawbacks" approach from Mastering Iron Heroes, but it would be nice to have a small amount of magic mojo going on.

Third, as you get into the higher levels, balance with the standard monsters becomes increasingly shaky. High-level D&D monsters are built on the assumption that they will be facing high-level casters; as a result, they have many abilities that Iron Heroes characters just have no way to cope with. How do you deal with a high-end dragon when you can't buff with protection from energy? How do you catch and kill a fiend who can teleport at will, when you don't have dimensional anchor? Et cetera. And damage reduction is a killer.

Finally, as with any d20 system, the modifiers start to really pile up as you gain levels. Heroics give way to number-crunching. Thieves are especially annoying in this regard. Still, it's no worse than a D&D campaign with a caster who specializes in debuffs.

[Rainspattered]

I love the primitive feeling of Iron Heroes, and the grittier story feeling it gives; a Berserker's power is strengthened by the deaths of those he cares for. The system is, as Dausuul pointed out, in its first run/beta stage of creation. It has some kinks. That aside, I love it from a fluff and gameplay standpoint.
The other two points Dausuul gave as weaknesses I actually like, from an RP perspective. The idea that some monsters are still horrifically powerful, no-matter how strong you get, is something that really isn't there in D&D. When facing a dragon, high-level characters just seem to think that it's something they can handle. It's not a horrible monster that has slain countless adventurers, it's a simple obstacle the wizard can take care of without too much effort. You can just get handy magical protection from its flame, boosts to your armour from its claws. It becomes dull and routine. In Iron Heroes, you've got to use every trick up your sleeve, band together with a mass of allies, and even then, there is a good chance you will not survive, and your comrades will fail. Welcome to adventuring, Population: the foolish and the lucky. Don't like it? Roleplay a blacksmith next time.
As for the lack of treasure, I like this, too. In Iron Heroes, the idea is that you are the forces shaping the face of a world. Eventually, adventuring just doesn't pay any more. You can raid dungeon after dungeon and not get much you don't already have. One thing you don't have is power and influence. A tyrant or a champion of freedom who prevents any government from coming to a collection of anarchic, agricultural people. Adventuring becomes a matter not of wanting better items and more experience, but of actually wanting to make a difference.

[storybookknight]

I can't agree. It needed to have been finished, rather than interrupted mid-production because somebody got hired at Wizards. As it stands, the incomplete rule system is just too much of a hassle for me to want to play games in it.

[Rainspattered]

On the other hand, the player's handbook is in a much sorrier state and makes the claim of being completed.

[Amphimir Míriel]

On the other hand, the player's handbook is in a much sorrier state and makes the claim of being completed.

Ouch!!

Bring out the asbestos underwear!

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

I'm sure this will come as a shock to Tormy, but I really dig Iron Heroes. Once they get the revised ruleset pdf out, a lot of that bugginess is going to go away. Adam Windsor is very much dedicated to making IH a viable, profitable product, so things are going to keep getting better.

[Varen_Tai]

I think it's darn cool, for one reason in particular - the HUNTER. How cool is a warrior class who's prime stat is Int? That freaking rocks. My fav class by far.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

I think it's darn cool, for one reason in particular - the HUNTER. How cool is a warrior class who's prime stat is Int? That freaking rocks. My fav class by far.

Then you should've seen Tormsskull in action. He was easily the most brilliant Hunter I've ever seen. The King Must Die! doesn't have a lot in the way of difficult terrain for him to use his tokens on, so he spent I'd guess 3/4 of the module racking up tokens and giving them to other party members. It was great, because it suddenly turned them into horrendous killing machines even within just the first round or two, which is exactly what the Hunter is supposed to do.

[Tormsskull]

Then you should've seen Tormsskull in action. He was easily the most brilliant Hunter I've ever seen.

hehe. Yeah, I was like a token-seller at the bus station. Except I gave them for free. I gave quite a few at Alarra (she was playing the archer) which helped her arrows a bit. Overall the hunter was a very interesting & fun class to play.

[Thiel]

I like it for the sheer coolness factor and the level mastery system.

[DomarSaul]

I haven't played it, but I had been hearing really good things. However, I get the impression from this thread that there are some kinks still to be worked out? Is this something that is likely to happen in the near future - that is to say, might it be worth it to hold off on investigating it until balance issues have undergone the necessary errata?

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

I haven't played it, but I had been hearing really good things. However, I get the impression from this thread that there are some kinks still to be worked out? Is this something that is likely to happen in the near future - that is to say, might it be worth it to hold off on investigating it until balance issues have undergone the necessary errata?

There is a very extensive set of errata that have been worked out in the year-and-a-half since IH was released, including a major overhaul of the Armiger class, tweaks and clarifications to several of the classes and feats, and general playtesting. According to the Iron Heroes boards an edited pdf is coming soon, with a full book possibly appearing at GenCon. So if you're interested I'd strongly encourage you to hold off until the new pdf comes out, it'll be worth the wait.

[Starsinger]

I like parts of it, like, what's the class who's fighter, but has a couple of Wild Card feats?

I'm also a big fan of how everyone but the arcanist rolls HD 1d4+X is much better on the barbarian than 1d12

[storybookknight]

With revisions I might be more inclined to like it - the arcanist is the worst of the offenders (as far as incompleteness and imbalance go) in the IK ruleset, and I'm not entirely ready to remove magic from my games as heavily as Iron Kingdoms seems to intend.

That said, part of my distaste is no doubt due to the fact that my DM decided it would be a good idea to run an IK game in the Midnight campaign setting, where weapons and armor are widely held to be illegal. :-/

[Varen_Tai]

hehe. Yeah, I was like a token-seller at the bus station. Except I gave them for free. I gave quite a few at Alarra (she was playing the archer) which helped her arrows a bit. Overall the hunter was a very interesting & fun class to play.

His WarLeader feats along with the other set of feats for him that allow him to use his Int mod as his To Hit mod make him totally excellent. Someone was running an IK game on the board and I was playing a Hunter - didn't last long, and that depressed me because I was having fun already. Low Cha, but maxed out Int (18 +2 for the extra Int ability that also takes -2 to your Str I think) so he was smart and really abrasive. Lots of fun.

I'm very jealous...

[squishycube]

Playing it and loving it. No magic for the players, some supernatural things going on which the characters are freaking out on.
Some clunkiness in the rules, but those are largely fixed by the errata and a very active designer on the IH boards. What remains is fixed by my sane GM.
What I like very much about the system are the Mastery Feats and stunts.
Combat is so much more interesting now.

So far there is not really anything I really dislike about the system, apart from the rushed feel it has. (Which is fixed gradually by the community.)

[Thiel]

What I like very much about the system are the Mastery Feats and stunts.
Combat is so much more interesting now.

Seconded.
I especially like the ladder thingy the archer can make.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

I like parts of it, like, what's the class who's fighter, but has a couple of Wild Card feats?

Man-at-Arms. Gotta love a character who gets a feat every single level. Generating like a 10th-level NPC MaA is like a whole afternoon, just looking over feats and making choices.