Hearthstone 10: I am topdeck INCARNATE!

[otakuryoga]

i do not know how..but in arena today my priest was actually able to beat a warlock that summoned:
4 of the 6/6 do 1 damage to everyone when summoned (yeah..mindfarting on the name)
1 floating watcher
1 5/7 charger (which thankfully discarded ANOTHER 6/6 AND ANOTHER floating watcher)
2 6/7 ogres
and 1 force tank max(which i had to kill by running a yeti into and playing the holy hand grenade)

i was able to hold out til end..he had an ogre, his last 6/6 demon, and 4 other small guys
he had just killed my dancing sword(drawing his last card and playing the critter it gave him)
he is at 7
i had northshire cleric on board and holy fire in hand so i hit him for 1, holy fire'd him, and let him die to exhaustion

------
oh, and Hearthstone is down at the moment

[Anxe]

No one else has said anything on when they think the Tourney should start besides Rosstin and me, so I'm just gonna declare it starts on Friday January 9th. The rules are posted on the Google sheet, but I'll repeat them here again.

One deck for the whole tourney! No changing or modifying the deck once you've picked what you're using.
A match is a best of 3. You get points based on your record in a match.
4 points for winning 2-0.
3 points for winning 2-1.
2 points for losing 1-2.
1 point for losing 0-2.
You only get points for the first 5 matches you complete. You may continue to play matches after that, but you only get 0.1 point regardless of your record. This is intended to serve as a tiebreaker and to give opponents to people who don't complete their matches in the initial rush.
After two weeks on January 23rd, the four participants with the highest points will move on to the semi-finals. If points are an insufficient tiebreaker, the current record within this tournament will be used to decide who moves on. If the people in the tiebreaker have not played each other then they will play a best of three match with their deck to decide who moves on to the semi-finals.
The semi-finals used the same of format. Best of three using the same deck as before. Seed 1 plays Seed 3 and Seed 2 plays Seed 4 in the semi-finals.

Gandariel, Graymage, and myself are volunteering as commentators for the tournament (And anyone else is welcome to join in). If you'd like a match to be streamed over Twitch and uploaded to Youtube for people to watch later let me know. Skype is probably the best method. My username is Anxe322 on Skype. Say something about the tourney in your first message so I don't confuse you for spam. I won't be available 24/7 to stream games, but I'll do what I can.

Finally, if the Europe players want to start a tournament, feel free to add another page to the Google form Rosstin's made and just keep track there.

Good luck!

[Hamste]

Sounds good to me.

[Volthawk]

So ogres can attack the wrong target when they trigger Noble Sacrifice, leaving the 2/1 defender on the board. Didn't know that until it just happened.

[Xiander]

So, I just managed to reach 12 arena wins for the first time. It feels pretty good.
I got almost 500 gold and a pack for my troubles, add to that that the pack held Flame leviathan and Enhanceo mechanic.
I feel pretty good about the whole thing.

Not surpricingly my deck was a mage deck, with two lamestrikes, a blizzard, two fireballs and two polymorphs. No threat stayed on the board for long.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

I'll have to see if I want to join. My NA account doesn't have quite as much in terms of cards, so I'm not sure I could make a competent deck on the NA, and the Europe doesn't have the tourney. Though, I had an idea for a question.


Assuming in arena you were drafting a Mage deck and had the choice between a War Golem and a Flame Leviathan (assuming this was a possible choice), which would you pick?

[Anxe]

I'll have to see if I want to join. My NA account doesn't have quite as much in terms of cards, so I'm not sure I could make a competent deck on the NA, and the Europe doesn't have the tourney. Though, I had an idea for a question.


Assuming in arena you were drafting a Mage deck and had the choice between a War Golem and a Flame Leviathan (assuming this was a possible choice), which would you pick?

I typically draft heavily in the 2 and 3 mana region. Establishing early board presence is often what wins an Arena game. Thos minions often don't survive a Flame Leviathan, but neither do my opponent's. So... I guess it depends on how much I've focused on that 2-3 mana region up to that point in the draft. If I've got more 4 and 5 mana stuff then I'd feel much more comfortable taking the Leviathan. Plus the Leviathan is a mech and War Golem isn't. Triggers my Blastmage if I got one!

[Rosstin]

Thanks for taking charge, Anxe! I can't wait for the tourney.

I'm tweaking my Wailing Druid, this is my current list. I'd like to try and take it to Legend. My strategy is to generate really really tough minions that trade well as early in the game as possible, then close things out with the Savage Roar / Force of Nature combo.

In the latest incarnation, I'm testing a version where I remove the stealth minions (Raging Worgen and Gilblin Stalker) and replace them with Power of the Wild, King Mukla, and an Echoing Ooze. I took out one Ancient of Lore and replaced it with a Coldlight Oracle and Sea Giant.

I figure Power of the Wild is nearly as good as Savage Roar. Yeah, there's a slight chance I'll silence the buff off my minions and then weep uncontrollably, but I figure if I have a bunch of buffed minions running around I'm probably pretty happy.

I'm not sure Mukla will be good enough, getting stabbed in the back by your own minions sucks. In my weaker moments I was tempted to add Millhouse Manastorm with Loathab and Cho though, so Mukla can't be nearly that bad.

Ogre Brutes are downright amazing, by the way. They're random hit thing is a downside, but it's not a big downside. And if you really want precision for lethal or something you can silence them.

Spoiler: Rosstin Wailing Druid (Latest)

Show

Innervate
Innervate
Zombie Chow
Zombie Chow
Ancient Watcher
Ancient Watcher
Power of the Wild
Power of the Wild
Echoing Ooze
Ironbeak Owl
Ironbeak Owl
Coldlight Oracle
Savage Roar
Savage Roar
Dancing Swords
Ogre Brute
Ogre Brute
King Mukla
Swipe
Swipe
Keeper of the Grove
Keeper of the Grove
Wailing Soul
Wailing Soul
Fel Reaver
Fel Reaver
Force of Nature
Force of Nature
Ancient of Lore
Sea Giant

Spoiler: Rosstin Wailing Druid (Jan 1)

Show

Innervate
Innervate
Worgen Infiltrator
Zombie Chow
Zombie Chow
Ancient Watcher
Ancient Watcher
Gilblin Stalker
Gilblin Stalker
Ironbeak Owl
Ironbeak Owl
Savage Roar
Savage Roar
Dancing Swords
Dancing Swords
Ogre Brute
Ogre Brute
Swipe
Swipe
Keeper of the Grove
Keeper of the Grove
Spellbreaker
Wailing Soul
Wailing Soul
Fel Reaver
Fel Reaver
Force of Nature
Force of Nature
Ancient of Lore
Ancient of Lore

We have 7 people confirmed as registered for the Tourney, so we should be ready to go even if we don't get any more people. I think 7 is just enuff. But I'm sure we'll get some more applicants once the ball is rolling.

[Zevox]

Assuming in arena you were drafting a Mage deck and had the choice between a War Golem and a Flame Leviathan (assuming this was a possible choice), which would you pick?

War Golem. Flame Leviathan's effect is too much of a risk.

[Rosstin]

I dig this guy's style, he has weird RNGie decks

http://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveH..._synergy_mage/

[r2d2go]

War Golem. Flame Leviathan's effect is too much of a risk.

Depends on what I'm running, IMO. If I have a very control-y, late game Arena deck, Flame Leviathan. It's very unlikely to hurt, especially since you draw before you play, and sometimes it will save me. And even if it does reduce the advantage I have, I know it's in my deck, so it's very unlikely to take me from ahead to behind. And if I'm ahead, it probably won't hurt, because hey, control deck, all I need to do is survive the early game.

On the other hand, if I have a highly aggressive deck, War Golem. It's probably not going to do great, but Flame Leviathan is worse than a dead card in an aggressive arena deck, since it can bring me from ahead to behind, and probably will.

In general, for mid-range style stuff... Meh, I'd probably take Flame Leviathan anyway, but it depends on how much AoE I've drafted. The fact remains that you can play around it, while your opponent doesn't know it's in your deck. If I've already drafted a few AoEs, I'd probably chuck it, but most of the time it will be in your favor, since you know it's there and your opponent does not.

[Tectonic Robot]

I'd pick Flame Leviathan, easy. Its way flashier and you can play around it better than your opponent can.

[CantigThimble]

I'd base my decision on the number of 2 health minions I had or expected to have by the end. You simply need 2 drops no matter what and if flame leviathan will kill 5-6 cards in your deck it's probably not worth it.

[Zevox]

[...] most of the time it will be in your favor, since you know it's there and your opponent does not.

I'd argue just the reverse: if simply having it in your deck forces you to play around it, it's hurting you much more than your opponent unless it happens to get drawn at a great time, because you're constantly being forced to avoid plays that may otherwise be optimal, but leave you vulnerable to your own card. That is, if anything, one of the worst parts of Flame Leviathan.

[Gandariel]

I dig this guy's style, he has weird RNGie decks

http://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveH..._synergy_mage/

Interesting idea... but why two Kirin Tor Mages? Also, i'd ditch Bomb Lobber for something stronger, like Sylvanas or Belchers.

[efdf]

I'd argue just the reverse: if simply having it in your deck forces you to play around it, it's hurting you much more than your opponent unless it happens to get drawn at a great time, because you're constantly being forced to avoid plays that may otherwise be optimal, but leave you vulnerable to your own card. That is, if anything, one of the worst parts of Flame Leviathan.

That doesn't make any sense. The way you have it set up, your opponent is not playing around Flame Leviathan, and you are, therefore your opponent has an advantage. However, if you accept this as true, you could simply not play around Flame Leviathan too, and your opponent's advantage is gone. You're not avoiding optimal plays - optimal plays shift because of the presence of Flame Leviathan, and you get to have this information while your opponent is in the dark.

You can of course make the argument that Flame Leviathan is not worth playing around until there's only a few cards left in your deck or drawing the Flame Leviathan in the board state you have planned makes you instantly lose from a possibly winning position. It definitely doesn't change priorities much in the early game. More importantly though, as other players have mentioned, Flame Leviathan hurts certain types of decks much worse than others, and this should be your primary consideration when picking Flame Leviathan.

[thirsting]

Echo of Medivh and three Duplicates in arena. So many minions! And so much conceding after they gauge their mostly empty hand against my almost full one...

[Zevox]

That doesn't make any sense. The way you have it set up, your opponent is not playing around Flame Leviathan, and you are, therefore your opponent has an advantage. However, if you accept this as true, you could simply not play around Flame Leviathan too, and your opponent's advantage is gone. You're not avoiding optimal plays - optimal plays shift because of the presence of Flame Leviathan, and you get to have this information while your opponent is in the dark.

Except that those plays are only actually optimal if you draw Flame Leviathan, which is always a 1/however many cards are still in your deck chance, which is typically pretty low. And if you don't, they may well have been sub-optimal plays. It's a card that forces you to play around your own deck and the chance of it being drawn, inherently hampering your options by its very presence in your deck - that's terrible.

[Tectonic Robot]

Except that those plays are only actually optimal if you draw Flame Leviathan, which is always a 1/however many cards are still in your deck chance, which is typically pretty low. And if you don't, they may well have been sub-optimal plays. It's a card that forces you to play around your own deck and the chance of it being drawn, inherently hampering your options by its very presence in your deck - that's terrible.

I think you're wrong here, Zevox. You can choose to not play around Flame Leviathan, if you want to. Then you won't be playing off the low low chance that Flame Leviathan will be drawn, and his effect won't matter because it'll be symmetrical--either good or bad. Same as a War Golem.

Or you could, and try to make it so when his effect does go off, its a plus for your game.

[Zevox]

I think you're wrong here, Zevox. You can choose to not play around Flame Leviathan, if you want to. Then you won't be playing off the low low chance that Flame Leviathan will be drawn, and his effect won't matter because it'll be symmetrical--either good or bad. Same as a War Golem.

Or you could, and try to make it so when his effect does go off, its a plus for your game.

You choosing not to play around it doesn't mean that the effect won't matter - it could very well put you in a position where it going off will be terrible for you. Which is exactly the problem. Either you play around it and risk those altered, likely otherwise-weaker plays hampering you throughout the game or you don't and risk the Flame Leviathan screwing you over.

That is why Flame Leviathan is terrible. That is why I would never take it over War Golem. I only want to have to worry about my opponent defeating me, not my own card, thanks.

[Hircine]

So I finally caved and crafted Sylvanas, but I still have a sizable amount of dust to use and am uncertain what to do with it.

1) Craft Ragnaros and Cairne (Though I've been hearing that Cairne isn't good anymore.)

2) Craft Jaraxxus and giants for handlock.

3) Craft Cenarius, FON, and Ancient of War for ramp druid..

[Hamste]

Go handlock I would say (Mostly because I love handlock).

[Zevox]

Personally, I would always favor crafting legendaries over lower-rarity cards when I had enough dust for it, since it's so much easier to get the lower-rarity cards out of packs or shorter-term dust saving. Rag, Cairne, and Jaraxxus are all well worth grabbing I can say from experience. I do love Jaraxxus in particular. Rag can be frustrating though, with his RNG-dependency.

[Gandariel]

@Zevox

I'm with the others too.

Setting aside the " is your deck good or bad for a Leviathan to be in" argument, Leviathan is better than War Golem.

Simply, you have two options.

You can ignore it, and play it like any other deck. In this case, it's neither positive or negative. It's just a more RNG game (which obviously you loathe, but doesn't hamper you more than it hampers your opponent).

IF you acknowledge the fact that it exists, you *may* slightly alter your plays and this *may* improve your performance with the deck.
Of course, you might just alter your plays too much and end up losing because you were hoping too much for the Leviathan or something, but that goes under playing wrong.

Assuming a good player, Flame Leviathan is nothing but a plus.

[Hircine]

Personally, I would always favor crafting legendaries over lower-rarity cards when I had enough dust for it, since it's so much easier to get the lower-rarity cards out of packs or shorter-term dust saving. Rag, Cairne, and Jaraxxus are all well worth grabbing I can say from experience. I do love Jaraxxus in particular. Rag can be frustrating though, with his RNG-dependency.

Won't Jaraxxus be worthless without the giants since he's only used in Handlock and Demonlock decks? Also for reference I won't be getting anymore classic packs for sometime since my gold goes into arena.

[Zevox]

Assuming a good player, Flame Leviathan is nothing but a plus.

I could not disagree more. Flame Leviathan is always a risk, and forces you to make plays you otherwise wouldn't or to accept the possibility of it showing up at the wrong time and screwing you over. It doesn't matter who the player is, that's a problem. That's why you'll never see it getting used in constructed at any serious level - it's not worth the risk. An uncontrollable effect like that is not a plus unless you get lucky.

It's actually significantly worse than every other form of RNG in the game. With other RNG cards you at least control when you play them - what the board state is at the time you drop your Mad Bomber, or Ragnaros, or whatever it may be. With Flame Leviathan you don't even have that much control.

Won't Jaraxxus be worthless without the giants since he's only used in Handlock and Demonlock decks? Also for reference I won't be getting anymore classic packs for sometime since my gold goes into arena.

I suppose, if you don't want to experiment with anything else yourself.

[Gandariel]

I could not disagree more. Flame Leviathan is always a risk, and forces you to make plays you otherwise wouldn't or to accept the possibility of it showing up at the wrong time and screwing you over. It doesn't matter who the player is, that's a problem. That's why you'll never see it getting used in constructed at any serious level - it's not worth the risk. An uncontrollable effect like that is not a plus unless you get lucky.

It's actually significantly worse than every other form of RNG in the game. With other RNG cards you at least control when you play them - what the board state is at the time you drop your Mad Bomber, or Ragnaros, or whatever it may be. With Flame Leviathan you don't even have that much control.

Ok, let me try to rephrase that.

YOU CAN IGNORE IT.
Since its effect completely symmetrical and noone is taking any steps to ward from it, the effect is completely neutral.
It's like having a War Golem, plus having a chance of this random event happening. This is neither better or worse. It's just more random.

So we've established that the BASELINE for this card is neutral. If you ignore it, it's neither better or worse than War Golem.
So, whatever you do, (assuming you are a good player) you can't get worse than this.

Now the question is, is there any situation in which knowing Leviathan is in your deck could benefit you?

The answer to that is clearly yes (and i could give you examples if you want).

So, the value of the card fluctuates between War Golem and War Golem +.

Unless you value completely neutral RNG as negative, or take into account how your deck might be "good" or "bad" for Leviathan, i still say it's a pick over War Golem

[Zevox]

Ok, let me try to rephrase that.

YOU CAN IGNORE IT.
Since its effect completely symmetrical and noone is taking any steps to ward from it, the effect is completely neutral.
It's like having a War Golem, plus having a chance of this random event happening. This is neither better or worse. It's just more random.

That's like saying that Hellfire never benefits one player over the other, because the effect is symmetrical. It's simply wrong. Ignoring it is a risk, just as playing around it constantly is a risk. Its mere presence in your deck is a risk. War Golem's is not.

[Silfir]

Most cards are drawn at the beginning of your turn. At that time, it's slightly more likely for your opponent to have minions on the board, simply because clearing your opponent's board while establishing board presence of your own is usually the optimal play. The only time that's not the case is if you're ahead, and since you know Flame Leviathan is in your deck, you can play around it a bit when trading by leaving 3+ health minions around.

With all that in mind I'd say Flame Leviathan averages out to slightly better than neutral. Whether or not it would make Constructed decks is a pretty useless distinction to make when evaluating Arena picks. (On the other hand, to some extent so is comparing cards of a different rarity. If you compare Flame Leviathan to other legendaries, it falls very much behind.) There are tons of fine Arena cards that never see Constructed play as well as Constructed staples that are poor to terrible Arena picks.

EDIT: The mere presence of Flame Leviathan is a risk, sure. But at the same time the mere presence of Flame Leviathan in your deck offers the potential of beneficial outcome. Imagine going first, passing the turn, and your opponent coins out two Flame Imps in an attempt to rush you down. Now drawing Flame Leviathan doesn't just not hurt you, it all but wins you the game outright, whereas War Golem would merely drive another nail into the coffin since it's a crappy early game draw.

A proper risk-benefit analysis would take all the potential cases of good and bad outcomes into account; it wouldn't amount to "it's risky, therefore it's bad".

[efdf]

That's like saying that Hellfire never benefits one player over the other, because the effect is symmetrical.

It's nothing like that actually, and that's a pretty bad misinterpretation of Gandariel's post.