Pathfinder Tiers?

[Rakaydos]

Can someone link me to a pathfinder tier list, with mention of Architypes that modify tiers?

[Ssalarn]

Can someone link me to a pathfinder tier list, with mention of Architypes that modify tiers?

Don't have a refined list, but I'll pop a quick summation that will hopefully help and keep your post floating until someone with a more comprehensive guide jumps in:

Tier 1

• Arcanist
• Cleric
• Druid
• Witch
• Wizard

Tier 2

• Oracle
• Shaman
• Sorcerer
• Summoner - Master Summoner can potentially brute force to Tier 1 with the sheer number of creatures with good spell lists and SLA's it can field, Synthesist drops to Tier 3 due to loss of action economy and ready access to the SLA.

Tier 3

• Alchemist
• Bard
• Hunter - The Feral Hunter archetype is awful, trading away everything good about the class for fluffy but underpowered garbage. The Druid + Ranger 6 level casting and 6+INT skills may be enough to technically keep it in Tier3, but for me, Feral Hunter is a drop to Tier 5; you've got a bunch of garbage non-synergistic abilities that actually drag down your few decent remaining abilities instead of supporting them.
• Inquisitor
• Investigator
• Magus
• Ranger - Skirmisher drops you to Tier 4
• Skald
• Warpriest (just freaking barely, probably more of a very high Tier 4)

Tier 4

• Barbarian
• Bloodrager
• Brawler
• Cavalier
• Fighter - Martial Master + Mutation Warrior (they stack) could potentially bring you into the Tier 3 range due to the amount of flexibility they add in, but that would require substantial system mastery. In most instances they just solidify your standing in Tier 4. Dirty Fighter (half-orc racial archetype) + Dirty Trick Master from Bastards of Golarion can turn you into an incredible debuff/control specialist when combined with Whirlwind Attack and a polearm, also potentially helping you rise a tier. Lore Warden greatly improves your skills and gives you incredibly high scaling bonuses to combat maneuvers, and so also has the potential to help you rise a tier.
• Ninja
• Paladin - Sacred Servant can easily bump you to Tier 3 bordering on Tier 2, and they're probably the highest Tier 4 to begin with; many other builds can also jump to Tier 3 fairly easily.
• Samurai - People seem to love the Sword Saint archetype, but the reality is that the loss of the mount combined with the terrible action economy of his special abilities, probably drops the class to Tier 5.
• Slayer - The Vanguard archetype trades out one of your Slayer Talents for an improved version of Tactician, and gives you the option of trading more talents for additional uses. Given the supreme mediocrity of the Slayer Talents, this is strictly a buff. Combined with the force multiplication powers of a lot of the Teamwork feats and the big boost to initiative the class gets, a well built Vanguard can make the hop to Tier 3 (though just barely).

Tier 5

• Gunslinger - Pistolero or Musket Master make him really good at dealing reliable and consistent damage, bumping him to Tier 4.
• Monk - Qinggong + any of the following can bump you up one or more Tiers: Sensei, Sohei, Tetori, Zen Archer
• Rogue

Published Dreamscarred Press classes:

Tier 1
None- Psion can get here with some PrCs

Tier 2

• Psion
• Wilder - This is a technicality. They technically meet the requirements for Tier 2, but in actual play are so limited in their power selection that they're equivalent to a Tier 3.

Tier 3

• Cryptic
• Dread - The dread is... debatable. In campaigns where the bulk of foes are construcs, undead, or other creatures largely immune to mind-affecting and/or fear effects, the dread drops to Tier 5.
• Stalker
• Tactician
• Vitalist
• Vizier
• Warlord

Tier 4

• Aegis - clever use of Powerstones can quickly bump this class to a Tier 3.
• Marksman
• Psychic Warrior - high functioning Tier 4; feats and options that expand his power selection by pulling from other lists can help him cusp into Tier 3. There's a fair number of people that consider this class a Tier 3 in its own right.
• Soulknife - combining the Gifted Blade and Nimble Blade archetypes can give this class enough versatility to rise into Tier 3 status.
• Warder - grabbing an organization or archetype that allows you to swap in a discipline granting healing or teleportation can lift this high Tier 4 into Tier 3 territory.

Tier 5
None - see note on Dread

[Rakaydos]

Can a rogue or gunslinger gestalt improve any of the tier 4s to tier 3? What tier does each of the Quigon monk Architypes belong to?

[deuxhero]

I don't think there is a full list, but the general consenus is:

Of the core classes, the only one that actually changed tiers was Paladin, which is at least +1. Ranger is much nicer, but not enough to put it up a tier. Early on Bard was hit a bit because it was really only tier 3 in 3.5 because of its massive splat support, but it now has comparable in Pathfinder.

New classes are

Tier 1: Arcanist.
Tier 1 or tier 2: All full casters, though which are 1/2 are open as nobody is sure if the Witch and Shaman have enough power in their lists to hit tier 1 and Oracle has at least 3 tricks to bypass spells known (Paragon Surge+Expanded Arcana, Dreamed Secret and Spirit Guide+Arcane Englightenment. The last two of which even give them Wizard spell access)
Tier 2 or tier 3: Summoner (can it really "break" the game before Healer could or is it just a really powerful tier 3?)
Tier 3: Magus, Alchemist, Warpriest, Inquisitor, Skald,
Tier 3 or 4: Bloodrager, Hunter, Investigator
Tier 4 or 5: Gunslinger, Cavalier, Slayer, Swashbuckler.

Archetypes considered potent enough to change tiers upward is limited to Zen Archer and some combinations of Qinggong/Sensei/Drunken Master/Hungry Ghost for Monk (tier 3/high tier 4) and Sacred Servant Paladin (Tier 2. Free Planar Ally breaks the game. Domain for less smites is also acceptable trade, especially when paired with Oath of Vengence). There are WAY too many downward archetypes to list.


What I gave as ACG tier listings should be taken with a grain of salt though, as their newness makes their tiers less discussed.

[Ssalarn]

Can a rogue gestalt improve any of the tier 4s to tier 3?

Possibly the Cavalier, Barbarian, and Bloodrager? Given how quickly skill relevance drops off without supporting spellcasting though, I doubt it for the Cavalier and Barbarian.

What tier does each of the Quigon monk Architypes belong to

Sensei - Tier 3, Sohei, Tetori, and Zen Archer - Tier 4. You could maybe finagle a Zen Archer up to Tier 3 with some smart choices, but Tetori and Sohei are too focused to really make the big jump.

[Petrocorus]

Here is a previous list on MinMax, does not include DSP classes.

Don't have a refined list, but I'll pop a quick summation that will hopefully help and keep your post floating until someone with a more comprehensive guide jumps in:

Published Dreamscarred Press classes:
Tier 4

• Psychic Warrior

Wait, the PsyWar is T4? Does that means he's worse than the 3.5 version?

[Ssalarn]

Here is a previous list on MinMax, does not include DSP classes.




Wait, the PsyWar is T4? Does that means he's worse than the 3.5 version?

Psychic Warrior is probably up for debate; I personally think he's very proficient at combat with some good ability to adapt, but I don't think he manages to make that final step into Tier 3. What is he good at besides combat? What roles can he fill in the group besides damage or tank (or alternatively, hammer or anvil)? The DSP PsyWar is probably a bit better than 3.5 PsyWar given that there's much more supporting material and options, but, in my opinion, there's a difference between being a really good Tier 4 and an actual Tier 3; for example, the Barbarian is probably the best and most self-reliant Tier 4 out there, head and shoulders above the Fighter with ready access to a built-in boost to Will saves, Pounce, meaningful DR, flight, and/or any number of useful skill or ability buffs, but none of that actually pushes him into Tier 3. Note that I placed the Slayer, which is essentially a Fighter/Rogue Gestalt, at the same Tier, primarily due to the poor scaling of skills if they're not magically supported. They're both really good Tier 4's with some ability to contribute outside of combat, but the only role I see them potentially filling other than combat specialist is skill-monkey, and that not nearly as well as an Inquisitor, Alchemist, or Bard. The skill-monkey role in general I think is worth much less in PF than 3.5, given the ubiquity of options for dealing with traps and the otherwise limited number and uses of really good, game-impacting skills.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "During the first quarter of the game the PsyWar and Slayer can be competent Tier 3's, but that drops off quickly at 6th level and every level thereafter, relegating them to Tier 4"?

[Elricaltovilla]

I don't want to involve myself in a tier debate, but I gotta disagree with your rating of the warder. Their skill list and skill points allow them to fill social roles in a party with surprising effectiveness, and with the leftover skill points they've got that can fill out knowledge skills and other utilities.

They may not have the class features that facilitate out of combat stuff to the same level as Stalkers, but I've played several and never really lacked for something to add to a situation.

[Ssalarn]

I don't want to involve myself in a tier debate, but I gotta disagree with your rating of the warder. Their skill list and skill points allow them to fill social roles in a party with surprising effectiveness, and with the leftover skill points they've got that can fill out knowledge skills and other utilities.

They may not have the class features that facilitate out of combat stuff to the same level as Stalkers, but I've played several and never really lacked for something to add to a situation.

Along the same vein as the PsyWar, I think there's a difference between "Does one thing well and can competently cover 1 or more additional roles" and "Does one thing well and isn't useless elsewhere". I've played the Warder pretty extensively myself, and you're right, he usually does have something to contribute. I wouldn't say he can fill in for a real skill-monkey (or healer, or controller, etc.) even temporarily though, which is a requirement of the Tier 3 rating.

An Inquisitor is, to me, the quintessential Tier 3; he's got great skills and a solid skill list, well supported by his class spell list, and you've got to have pretty poor system mastery to make one who isn't a solid combatant. He's also got enough healing potential to step in and cover down while the "real" healer is out of commission, or you could split healing with another back-up healer like the Paladin and forego having a dedicated healer altogether. Note that I could say the exact same thing about a Bard or Alchemist. The Warder, while great at tanking and not incompetent at those skills he chooses to pursue, just doesn't fit that Tier 3 dynamic of adequately covering multiple roles, IMHO.

Now, if you're of the opinion that something like 6+INT skills or the equivalent is enough to step a class that's good at combat into Tier 3 all by itself, than PsyWar, Slayer, Gunslinger (not 6+INT, but 4+ with some no save debuffs and skill replacement options), and Warder should probably all be bumped up a Tier.

[Elricaltovilla]

Tier 3 isn't "can contribute to multiple roles effectively" though, its "can do one thing well and can contribute in other situations."

Part of the issue is how you define "roles." Is combat effectiveness a role? If it is, does that mean tank or damage dealer isn't?

The second part is the whole discipline swapping thing. You can make a warder who heals, teleports, flies, creates illusions or a bunch of other things just by trading out a discipline or two. But is this the same as changing to an archetype or less so?

In the end I think the warder is a tier three still. Its THE tank class, a good damage dealer, has a great skill list and can trade around disciplines to become a healer, get teleportation for utility, or pick up other tricks from various disciplines. All of that makes for a varied class with lots of options and ways to contribute.

[Ssalarn]

Tier 3 isn't "can contribute to multiple roles effectively" though, its "can do one thing well and can contribute in other situations."

Part of the issue is how you define "roles." Is combat effectiveness a role? If it is, does that mean tank or damage dealer isn't?

The second part is the whole discipline swapping thing. You can make a warder who heals, teleports, flies, creates illusions or a bunch of other things just by trading out a discipline or two. But is this the same as changing to an archetype or less so?

In the end I think the warder is a tier three still. Its THE tank class, a good damage dealer, has a great skill list and can trade around disciplines to become a healer, get teleportation for utility, or pick up other tricks from various disciplines. All of that makes for a varied class with lots of options and ways to contribute.

I think (and my opinion is by no means the final arbiter) that the various organizations that allow you to swap in disciplines that are not part of the core class are essentially just non-class specific archetypes. Someone who owns just the Warder .pdf cannot heal, teleport, etc. any better than any other class, so those would qualify as archetypes that can potentially change your Tier rating. The monk doesn't jump up a Tier because the Sensei, Zen Archer, Qinggong, etc. exist, because the core monk is still terrible. Those particular archetypes however, are a Tier (or more) higher. Similarly, the fact that dwarves who happen to be Fighters can get Spell Sunder and Spell Resistance doesn't reflect on the potential of Fighters, but on the superiority of the dwarven race.

[deuxhero]

Expanded Knowledge and Advanced Study are "core" to Psionics/Path of War.

It's actually something that shows up pretty often in PF tiering: With traits that give class skills and change around the important attributes of skills, a lot of characters can use SOME skills if they work for it and don't have many mandatory skills (While not strictly mandatory you're going to need a good reason why your cleric knows jack about his god, their servants or his faith) with low SP/int focus .

[sonofzeal]

Having played a Druid in Pathfinder, I have to say I think they've been dropped a tier. SNA is just abysmal now, and Wildshape was barely worth it even when I was building my whole character for it and was actually more of a liability at lower levels. I figured "oh I'll go Orc with high Strength and stack Druid buff spells with Wildshape stat boosters", but since the DM didn't approve of using manufactured weapons in Wildshape, it actually reduced my combat ability. There's also far fewer long-duration buffs, and as I said, SNA has been nerfed to oblivion. It used to be that SM got you utility creatures while SNA got you combat brutes, but the SNA lists have been dropped until they're even worse than SM at the one thing they were supposed to be good at. There's still some utility uses for it, and there's still some good things on the Druid list, but everything that made them special has been clobbered with the nerfbat. The only bright point is the ability to trade Animal Companions for a Domain, and that's mostly just borrowed thunder from the Cleric at the cost of even more distinctive Druid-ness.

Admittedly, Druids rather needed some work to bring them back into line, but they definitely took a big hit.

[Mehangel]

I would just like to say that soulknife with the gifted blade archetype is probably a low tier 3 or very high tier 4. This becomes especially true when the soulknife has the nimble blade archetype also (allowing the soulknife to have access to almost all bladeskills and gifted blade powers and effectively making every power he manifests cost 2 less). Just saying.

[Ssalarn]

I would just like to say that soulknife with the gifted blade archetype is probably a low tier 3 or very high tier 4. This becomes especially true when the soulknife has the nimble blade archetype also (allowing the soulknife to have access to almost all bladeskills and gifted blade powers and effectively making every power he manifests cost 2 less). Just saying.

I don't have the book in front of me or access to the PFSRD right now. Are we sure those stack? If so, I'll add that note to the list I'm assembling.

Also- Added a note to Warder indicating that archetypes or organizations granting access to additional disciplines can bump him from high Tier 4 to Tier 3.

[Elricaltovilla]

I don't have the book in front of me or access to the PFSRD right now. Are we sure those stack? If so, I'll add that note to the list I'm assembling.

Also- Added a note to Warder indicating that archetypes or organizations granting access to additional disciplines can bump him from high Tier 4 to Tier 3.

According to the PFSRD they stack.

[Ssalarn]

According to the PFSRD they stack.

Cool. Updated Soulknife, and added a note to PsyWar.

[Red Fel]

I think one of the key things is that archetypes, as a whole, have a tendency to move classes towards Tier 1. That's not to say they could move a Tier 4 to Tier 1, but they might lift it up to Tier 3, or at least higher in Tier 4. Now, yes, some may not influence a class' Tier ranking, and some may even make it worse, but the ultimate metric of the Tier System is versatility. By definition, adding more options to a class increases versatility, overall, even where a single option does not.

When you consider that the Tier System measures a given class, essentially, by the ceiling of its core abilities, you have to decide whether to even include archetypes. Because they change the dynamic, oftentimes increasing that ceiling. And if you do include archetypes, will you rank each one individually? Or will you rank the core class based upon its most versatile archetype, even though that might present a disproportionate Tier ranking?

PrCs and ACFs are generally excluded from the Tier System, if memory serves, unless worthy of particular note. Should archetypes be treated the same way?

[Ssalarn]

I think one of the key things is that archetypes, as a whole, have a tendency to move classes towards Tier 1. That's not to say they could move a Tier 4 to Tier 1, but they might lift it up to Tier 3, or at least higher in Tier 4. Now, yes, some may not influence a class' Tier ranking, and some may even make it worse, but the ultimate metric of the Tier System is versatility. By definition, adding more options to a class increases versatility, overall, even where a single option does not.

When you consider that the Tier System measures a given class, essentially, by the ceiling of its core abilities, you have to decide whether to even include archetypes. Because they change the dynamic, oftentimes increasing that ceiling. And if you do include archetypes, will you rank each one individually? Or will you rank the core class based upon its most versatile archetype, even though that might present a disproportionate Tier ranking?

PrCs and ACFs are generally excluded from the Tier System, if memory serves, unless worthy of particular note. Should archetypes be treated the same way?

I think archetypes are a little trickier than that. What they really tend to do, is allow a class to specialize. The value of that thing you're specializing into determines whether you move up or down a Tier, or not at all. Tier 5's tend to get the most benefit from archetypes - they don't really have a lot of room to go down and often they've got enough going on that they could be Tier 3 if they just had one thing they were actually good at, so Monks and other classes with diverse abilities can see a 1-2 Tier bump very easily. Tier 3 tends to be a glass ceiling; you've got to get something pretty freaking amazing from an archetype to cross that line from Tiers 3-5 into Tiers 1-2, since Tiers 1-2 are almost exclusively defined by the kind of effects normally exclusive to 9 level casters.

I would say a class' Tier is defined by the core class, and then archetypes would be kind of their own separate entry, like I've been doing above. It's too hard to codify otherwise, since many archetypes skew very far apart. If I tell someone the Monk is Tier 3, it's super misleading without the added "assuming you take the Qinggong archetype and at least one of the following...".

[Elricaltovilla]

My biggest issue with tiering is that it talks about "roles" the class can fill but doesn't actually define these roles. I said it above, but really that's a big issue. How different is tanking from DPR or BFC? I know 4e took a stab at defining class roles, but Defender, Leader, Striker and Controller don't get into enough detail in my opinion, especially since there are both in class and out of class roles.

[Rakaydos]

Possibly the Cavalier, Barbarian, and Bloodrager? Given how quickly skill relevance drops off without supporting spellcasting though, I doubt it for the Cavalier and Barbarian.

What about Gunslinger gestalt, or non-quigon monk gestalt? can they improve a tier 4?

[Ssalarn]

What about Gunslinger gestalt, or non-quigon monk gestalt? can they improve a tier 4?

You mean like gestalting a Cavalier or Barbarian with a Gunslinger or a core Monk? Hmmm... Gunslinger, probably not- the core class itself is Tier 5 so it's probably not going to improve a class that has the same basic amount of skills/level and better combat facility. Also, Barbarians and Cavaliers really want to leverage their abilities in melee (generally), so giving them an unreliable ranged mechanic is probably going to mean they've got a bunch of abilities that don't get used. I suppose a smart player could grab a blunderbuss and/or AoE alchemical cartridges to expand the range of threats they can deal with, but I just don't see it changing the Tier.

The Monk.... quite possibly. The Monk's biggest issue is that he has all of these non-synergistic abilities, like a combat mechanic that wants him to stand still and a bunch of mobility based class features. Since you'd be grafting all of those situational abilities onto a class that's already Tier 4 with its own reliable combat mechanic, it'd probably be enough of a bump to give them the leg up into Tier 3, depending on the core class it's altering. A Barbarian allowed to gestalt Monk (with a waived alignment requirement) could probably bring it all together in a pretty beneficial way; the Cavalier is going to have a harder time leveraging thsoe monk abilities.

[Elricaltovilla]

What about Gunslinger gestalt, or non-quigon monk gestalt? can they improve a tier 4?

Gestalting isn't really accounted for in the Tier System. It can fundamentally change a class and is a very optional ruleset anyway.

Specifically speaking though, gestalting with those classes probably wouldn't make a big difference, since they're already Tier 4-5 and are really only good at combat (barely in the case of the monk). Moving up a tier isn't about adding power, its about adding new options, new ways to solve problems and ways to solve problems the class couldn't solve before.

[squiggit]

I don't see how you can put Gunslinger down a tier from Fighter. Both have comparable DPR but the gunslinger has better skills and can deal its damage way more reliably than a fighter.

[Ssalarn]

I don't see how you can put Gunslinger down a tier from Fighter. Both have comparable DPR but the gunslinger has better skills and can deal its damage way more reliably than a fighter.

Gunslinger DPR is way lower than a Fighter's unless you take the Pistolero or Musket Master archetypes. Misfire mechanics also have a big negative impact on the core class' ability to maintain its performance. Outside of the archetypes, unless you're playing a dwarf GS exclusively burning his racial favored class bonus to reduce misfire chance, using exclusively one-handed firearms, and with ranks in Craft (Alchemy) to control the cost of all the alchemical cartridges you'll need, you don't even get into the same ballpark as the Fighter. Due to the steep cost of the firearms under the base assumption of the game, you're also almost always notably behind every other class in the value of your WBL. You can upgrade your own battered firearm to masterwork and enhance it from there to mitigate that a little bit, but you can't turn your battered pistol into a double-barreled pistol, which is where much of the class' damage comes from as the game progresses. It's part of the reason the class is such design garbage; it's not even internally consistent with its own performance.

[Kurald Galain]

PrCs and ACFs are generally excluded from the Tier System, if memory serves, unless worthy of particular note. Should archetypes be treated the same way?

Actually there is a list of 3.5 prestige classes that list whether they make their most common entries better or worse.

What about Gunslinger gestalt, or non-quigon monk gestalt? can they improve a tier 4?

The thing is that pretty much everybody plays with archetypes, and pretty much nobody plays gestalt. So practically speaking, neither tiers-without-archetypes or tiers-with-gestalt have much of a bearing on actual gameplay.

[Psyren]

PrCs and ACFs are generally excluded from the Tier System, if memory serves, unless worthy of particular note. Should archetypes be treated the same way?

Absolutely - some archetypes fundamentally change the power of a class, just like some ACFs do. Lore Warden is the classic example.

[Ssalarn]

Absolutely - some archetypes fundamentally change the power of a class, just like some ACFs do. Lore Warden is the classic example.

Ooh yeah. Lore Warden takes the Fighter from a Tier 4 sitting on the line that separates them from Tier 5 to a solid Tier 3 with built-in maneuver mastery, decent skills, and basically all the core Fighter advantages that you actually want. It's technically bad design due to some archetyping no-no's (like trading defensive abilities for faster scaling offensive ones), but it's just such a solid option for using the Fighter chassis to actually make a character who could be the star of a story, instead of the dumb muscle secondary character.

[Elricaltovilla]

Ooh yeah. Lore Warden takes the Fighter from a Tier 4 sitting on the line that separates them from Tier 5 to a solid Tier 3 with built-in maneuver mastery, decent skills, and basically all the core Fighter advantages that you actually want. It's technically bad design due to some archetyping no-no's (like trading defensive abilities for faster scaling offensive ones), but it's just such a solid option for using the Fighter chassis to actually make a character who could be the star of a story, instead of the dumb muscle secondary character.

It also stacks with Martial Master for floating bonus feats. That's a tier 3 fighter.

[Psyren]

It also stacks with Martial Master for floating bonus feats. That's a tier 3 fighter.

Yeah I definitely think Lore Warden + Martial Master is what Fighter needed to be. I'd even give them back the armor proficiencies for free.