I'll NEVER Die! (A Guide to the 5E Barbarian)

[Balor777]

As stated, the duelist style does not give you +2 to attack rolls. The only fighting style that grants bonuses to attack rolls is archery. Duelist gives +2 to damage. I don't know what you're talking about.

Wow ****!Ive been playing like this for 3 sessions!Both me and the DM lost it(others didnt get books yet)
Its strange tho.
1d8 +2 is almost equal (0.5 difference) to 1d12 with reroling 1-2s.
Anyway thanks for pointing out.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wow ****!Ive been playing like this for 3 sessions!Both me and the DM lost it(others didnt get books yet)
Its strange tho.
1d8 +2 is almost equal (0.5 difference) to 1d12 with reroling 1-2s.
Anyway thanks for pointing out.

Yes but it is weaker than 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s, and 1d12 will always be higher than 1d8+2 when you factor in crits.

[Aramis Rhett]

Which is why, me myself and I will use a Maul :)
More flavorful imo opinion for a Bear Totem Barbarian (weapon will essentially look like a "bear totem")
But I'll also have my trusty waraxe/shield for when more longevity is required.

[silveralen]

Yes but it is weaker than 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s, and 1d12 will always be higher than 1d8+2 when you factor in crits.

The critical feature is probably my least favorite part of barbarian, so I can see how some people would be wary of trusting it.

[NeoSeraphi]

The critical feature is probably my least favorite part of barbarian, so I can see how some people would be wary of trusting it.

Even without Brutal Critical, just comparing Duelist to Great Weapon Fighting, you deal more damage because of how crits work.

[silveralen]

Even without Brutal Critical, just comparing Duelist to Great Weapon Fighting, you deal more damage because of how crits work.

I mean... yes. An additional 2.7 (that is assuming you reroll crit damage using the style) damage on an average critical. Even accounting for barbarin's constant advantage that's a .27 increase to average damage. It's just not a significant difference. Even with the barbarian feature, it barely becomes a noticeable difference by the upper levels.

[NeoSeraphi]

I mean... yes. An additional 2.7 (that is assuming you reroll crit damage using the style) damage on an average critical. Even accounting for barbarin's constant advantage that's a .27 increase to average damage. It's just not a significant difference. Even with the barbarian feature, it barely becomes a noticeable difference by the upper levels.

I don't think you understand what a 'noticeable' difference is. The Brutal Critical feature is a textbook example of a noticeable difference, because it rarely occurs, but when it does, it is a huge power spike. It is a pitiful increase to your overall average damage not because it itself is a poor ability, but because of how rare it is.

When you Brutally crit, you notice it. Your damage increases from 1d12 to 2-5d12. You roll more dice, much more than you would at any other time, and much more than any other player would when they crit (unless they are a rogue or a paladin).

Now, perhaps the increase in your average damage is something you will fail to appreciate in the long run if you are theorycrafting, but that's not what the ability is for. It is specifically designed for thematic appreciation. The player at the table will not think about Brutal Critical when he's not rolling natural 20s, but when he does and he gets that devastating crit it will be the high point of his night. It is a hugely noticeable ability.

[silveralen]

I don't think you understand what a 'noticeable' difference is. The Brutal Critical feature is a textbook example of a noticeable difference, because it rarely occurs, but when it does, it is a huge power spike. It is a pitiful increase to your overall average damage not because it itself is a poor ability, but because of how rare it is.

When you Brutally crit, you notice it. Your damage increases from 1d12 to 2-5d12. You roll more dice, much more than you would at any other time, and much more than any other player would when they crit (unless they are a rogue or a paladin).

Now, perhaps the increase in your average damage is something you will fail to appreciate in the long run if you are theorycrafting, but that's not what the ability is for. It is specifically designed for thematic appreciation. The player at the table will not think about Brutal Critical when he's not rolling natural 20s, but when he does and he gets that devastating crit it will be the high point of his night. It is a hugely noticeable ability.

Again, a few points:

1. I was discussing the difference between a one handed weapon and two handed. A one handed weapon still spikes for a large chunk of damage, just not as much as greataxe.

2. Average damage is to help weigh how often those criticals occur and the helpful the damage difference they create is against the benefits of a one handed weapon, such as a shield.

3. One of the main problems with criticals as source of burst damage is they aren't controlled. You can easily get a critical in a situation where it benefits you little, if any. The average I gave is actually biased towards the greataxe, as it will often overkill the enemy, resulting in lost damage, and in many situations a one handed critical, or even a normal hit, would have finished the enemy off. It could even trigger when fighting an enemy so weak any hit would kill them. Or you could get two criticals in a row on the BBEG and barely kill him. It might be useless, it might be helpful, which is why we look at averages. And, on average, the difference between a greataxe and battle axe isn't going to be that significant from brutal critical alone.

It's a mediocre ability, due to the uncontrolled nature. It isn't awful, but it isn't stand out, for much the same reason crit range was more important than crit mulitplier. The best way to actually exploit it is to boost number of attacks, to spread it out more evenly. Without feats, I'd tend towards sword and board at low levels changing to duel wielding at higher levels.

[Balor777]

I mean... yes. An additional 2.7 (that is assuming you reroll crit damage using the style) damage on an average critical. Even accounting for barbarin's constant advantage that's a .27 increase to average damage. It's just not a significant difference. Even with the barbarian feature, it barely becomes a noticeable difference by the upper levels.

The point is to get it and forget it.Dont count on in.but WHEN it comes it is battle tied.
An average of 5 attacks per encounter gives 25% to apply.If you attack recklessly its 50%.If you are
playing with 2weapons its 50% to 100% with recless attack but with lower spike damage.
People think that champions 19-20 to crit at 3rd lvl is nice but Barbarian gets it at level 2 with the far superrior ability to attack with advantage.
As i said you should not count on it BUT, i would still get a greataxe to actualy make that enemy, hit by a crit, die.
At least when you get the first brutal critical bonus(1st level if half orc or 9 level if other race).
Every class has some +/-.You cant have it all.Fighter at 11 level gets the third attack, barbarian at 9 level deals 2 attacks with +3 damage each from rage.Has almost the same chances to deal crit(rec.att) with double the chances to hit(rec.att again) for increased crit damage.Plus effectively double hp with the bear resistance.

The game is balanced so brutal critical is one of many little things barbarian has.
EDIT: I agree with silveralen on the one handed weapon setup.If you combine it with rec.att you will probably hit everytime while higher AC helps you not beeing hit often as you would be without a shield.

[silveralen]

But, again, we are discussing whether the extra damage from multiple weapon dice justifies using a two handed weapon over a single handed, or as you mention two one handed weapons. The larger dice helps more when you crit, but is the larger damage worth the tradeoff elsewhere?

[Balor777]

But, again, we are discussing whether the extra damage from multiple weapon dice justifies using a two handed weapon over a single handed, or as you mention two one handed weapons. The larger dice helps more when you crit, but is the larger damage worth the tradeoff elsewhere?

The problem with barbarian lies in the "While raging, you gain the following benefits if you arent wearing heavy armor"
While a fighter can get 20 AC at 4-5 level with a shield and full plate,Barbarian will have to invest 18 at Dex and Con to get 20AC.
The soonest this would happen is at 8 level if my calculations are correct, but with the cost of haviing 16 STR.
Its not bad if you use recless attack for the advantage and you get the +2/3 damage from rage.,But still at the same setup
The fighter will have probably 20STR(+2 at rolls +2 damage more than the BArb) instead of 16 and 3 DR from heavy armor master without disadvantage VS the enemy attack rolls but with around 20 hp less and without the +4 from DEX to the reflexST.
It needs more time to do the math but it can happen and at the end barbarrian will deal a little less damage for more survivability.
Attacking with 2 weapons needs a 1lvl dip in fighter to get the style and one feat but you get your rage damage one more time.
Plus at 5th lvl+ you will have 30% to crit per round with recless attack.If your DM gives you magic 2 weapons TWF gets really good later with barbarian imo.

[Uthgar21]

The problem with barbarian lies in the "While raging, you gain the following benefits if you arent wearing heavy armor"
While a fighter can get 20 AC at 4-5 level with a shield and full plate,Barbarian will have to invest 18 at Dex and Con to get 20AC.
The soonest this would happen is at 8 level if my calculations are correct, but with the cost of haviing 16 STR.
Its not bad if you use recless attack for the advantage and you get the +2/3 damage from rage.,But still at the same setup
The fighter will have probably 20STR(+2 at rolls +2 damage more than the BArb) instead of 16 and 3 DR from heavy armor master without disadvantage VS the enemy attack rolls but with around 20 hp less and without the +4 from DEX to the reflexST.
It needs more time to do the math but it can happen and at the end barbarrian will deal a little less damage for more survivability.
Attacking with 2 weapons needs a 1lvl dip in fighter to get the style and one feat but you get your rage damage one more time.
Plus at 5th lvl+ you will have 30% to crit per round with recless attack.If your DM gives you magic 2 weapons TWF gets really good later with barbarian imo.

And that's why the Barbarian is a tank and the fighter an offtank!

[Balor777]

And that's why the Barbarian is a tank and the fighter an offtank!

I highly believe barbarian will deal more damage from the fighter with the -5attack+10damage attacking reclessly.
Lets see withouth the "power attack"
Both 20STR at 8 level with Maul attacking a Chain devil(CR8 AC16)
Both attack with +8 to attack roll +5 to damage(barb +2 from rage)
They miss for rolls 1 to 8 on the D20(at 8 level).
For the sake of math both have silvered weapons. :)
Barbarian attacks with recless attack.
Barbaian:
1-(8/20)x(8/20)=84% to hit and deals 2d6+7 for average 14 damage per swing -16% miss chance= 11.7per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 23.5 damage per round.
At 11 level 88% to hit +1 extra damage from rage -...->26.4 per round

Fighter: 1-8/20=60% to hit dealing 2d6 +5 reroling 1-2s for ~14 damage per swing -40% miss chance= 8.4 damage per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 16.8 damage per round.
At 11 level 65% to hit +1 extra attack -...->27.3 per round



The Chain Devil now:
+8 to hit 2 attacks per round for 2d6+4 damage.
Fighter has 18AC(full plate) barbarian has 16AC.

Vs the barbarian who has disadvantage(reckless attack)
1-(8/20)x(8/20)=84% to hit and deals 2d6+4 for average 11 damage per swing -16% miss chance= 9.25 per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 18.5 damage per round - 50% from rage ressistance 9.25 per round suffered.

Vs the fighter
1-10/20=50 to hit and deals 2d6+4 for average 11 damage per swing -50% miss chance= 5.5 per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 11 damage per round suffered.

Without power attack barbarian deals AND suffers less damage.Till fighter gets extra attack.
Now with power attack at 11 level
Barbarian:
1-(13/20)x(13/20)=58% to hit and deals 2d6+18 for average 25 damage per swing -42% miss chance= 14.5per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 29 damage per round.
Fighter 1-13/20=35% to hit and deals ~24 damage per swing - 65% miss chance = 8.4 per swing.
3x attacks per round =25.2 damage.

Im not taking into accound Action surge( and criticals) cause its once per short rest for one attack or frenzy that is 1 minute per day.
In fact 8lvl barbarian on Frenzy will take out that CR8 chain devil solo at 3 rounds EASY while the rest of the party can tie their shoe laces or fix their hair etc.

[CrusaderJoe]

So at what level would one suggest giving a Frenzy Barbarian an ability or magic item which can reduce levels of exhaustion for free, a limited times per day of course.

I absolutely hate Frenzy because of all the reasons stated by others. I figured if I ever get around to DMing again then doing something with the Frenzy barbarian might make it more appealing.

[silveralen]

So at what level would one suggest giving a Frenzy Barbarian an ability or magic item which can reduce levels of exhaustion for free, a limited times per day of course.

I absolutely hate Frenzy because of all the reasons stated by others. I figured if I ever get around to DMing again then doing something with the Frenzy barbarian might make it more appealing.

lvl 8-12 personally.

The idea being that, by that point, other classes have a chance to get their bonus action attack from a feat, if they choose, so barbarian getting to do it a few times per day seems fine.

Personally I'm inclined to simply let him use frenzy when raging for free at some point. You still have a cap on the free usage due to the cap on rages. Bit powerful to get at lvl 3, I might outright replace the level 10 feature with this. Or let him make a relentless rage check (which does increase DC, so not too powerful) at the end of a rage to avoid exhaustion. Just some spitball ideas.

[CrusaderJoe]

lvl 8-12 personally.

The idea being that, by that point, other classes have a chance to get their bonus action attack from a feat, if they choose, so barbarian getting to do it a few times per day seems fine.

Personally I'm inclined to simply let him use frenzy when raging for free at some point. You still have a cap on the free usage due to the cap on rages. Bit powerful to get at lvl 3, I might outright replace the level 10 feature with this. Or let him make a relentless rage check (which does increase DC, so not too powerful) at the end of a rage to avoid exhaustion. Just some spitball ideas.

Oh yeah, eventually free frenzy would be nice. Of course level 20 means they never run out of frenzies... But by that level something that powerful would be fine...

[Balor777]

To add in your guide if you like.
A question i made to MikeMearls via twitter:

QUESTION: @mikemearls If the weapon is one size larger from the creature using it the attack has disadvantage.(DMG)This applies for for PCs? Thanks!


ANSWER:@KasapisLefteris I'd use that rule, but also stipulate that the PC cannot gain advantage with that weapon.

We have Green light on the barbarian for 2d12 Large Greataxe using recless attack.

[CrusaderJoe]

To add in your guide if you like.
A question i made to MikeMearls via twitter:

QUESTION: @mikemearls If the weapon is one size larger from the creature using it the attack has disadvantage.(DMG)This applies for for PCs? Thanks!


ANSWER:@KasapisLefteris I'd use that rule, but also stipulate that the PC cannot gain advantage with that weapon.

We have Green light on the barbarian for 2d12 Large Greataxe using recless attack.

Not really.

Mike has already stated for rules questions the main head hancho is The Sage. So if The Sage agrees with Mearles then yeah but if the Sage doesn't then the Sage overrides Mearles by Mearles own words.

2d12 Greataxe sounds fun

[Balor777]

Mike has already stated for rules questions the main head hancho is The Sage. So if The Sage agrees with Mearles then yeah but if the Sage doesn't then the Sage overrides Mearles by Mearles own words.

Who is this Sage?

[NeoSeraphi]

If you can't gain advantage with the weapon then you can't use Reckless Attack with it.

Also where would you even get a Large greataxe? No one could craft one reliably.

[CrusaderJoe]

Who is this Sage?

Jeremy Crawford (I keep forgetting his real name haha).

[Balor777]

If you can't gain advantage with the weapon then you can't use Reckless Attack with it.

Also where would you even get a Large greataxe? No one could craft one reliably.

I dont think thats what he meant.At the end you dont get advantage with rec.att. when you are attacking with disavantage.You are canceling the disadvantage.He probably mentioned you cannot gain advantage at attacking.

At he end its more like a RP rule cause if you look at my post yesterday the same STR same LVL fighter/Barbarian
Barbarrian has a good 25% more chances to hit from the fighter due to advantage.When you will be using large weapon you will attack WITHOUT advantage anymore. To actualy make the same barbarrian (20str 8lvl) to attack with 85% probability without advantage that chain devil (16AC) you need to be at least 17 level with a +2 weapon...Actualy attacking with recless attack eaquals roughly a +4/+5 to attack bonus.Its PERFETLY balanced to loose 4/5 attack roll to get +~7 damage on hit.Its actualy less powerfull from the -5+10 you get from the feat as it should cause its not a feat.

It is not a buff rule.It an RP/fluff rule.

[QUOTE]

Jeremy Crawford (I keep forgetting his real name haha).

I asked Jeremy to but he didnt answered :)


About the weapon sizes 1d4->1d6->1d8->1d12/2d6->2d12/4d6 you cant equip bigger than Large size weapons.
You allways equip 1 damage size larger.You wont wield a large 2d8 longsword in one hand probably the biggest you will wield onehand is GSword/GAxe.And double that two handed.Like the usual 1d6+1d6 TWF equals 1d12 or 2d6 2handed.You MAY let players to wield a large 2d8 battleaxe in each hand with the dual wielder feat.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's not how it works. If you always have disadvantage you can never gain advantage anyway. Two advantages and one disadvantage always cancel each other out. His rule about not being able to gain advantage sounds more to me like you can never cancel the disadvantage.

[Balor777]

He replied again:

Q:@mikemearls Im sure you undestood that i had Barbarian in mind. :)
So Large longsword(2d8) or Maul as biggest one-hand?
Big thank you.


A:@KasapisLefteris i think that's reasonable - keep in mind that's not an official rule, just what i'd use at my table.

His opinion and the reality of math make this rule work in my table aAlltho i highly believe you could still
do better loosing that +4/+5 extra chance you get from recless attack by using -5+10 from the feat.Its a better use.

As i said its more like a fluff/style/RP rule :)

[Uthgar21]

A:@KasapisLefteris

Ela mwri patrida! :P

[Balor777]

Χαχα απιστευτο!

[NeoSeraphi]

He replied again:

Q:@mikemearls Im sure you undestood that i had Barbarian in mind. :)
So Large longsword(2d8) or Maul as biggest one-hand?
Big thank you.


A:@KasapisLefteris i think that's reasonable - keep in mind that's not an official rule, just what i'd use at my table.

His opinion and the reality of math make this rule work in my table aAlltho i highly believe you could still
do better loosing that +4/+5 extra chance you get from recless attack by using -5+10 from the feat.Its a better use.

As i said its more like a fluff/style/RP rule :)

It's not a rule, period. It's not in the DMG or the PHB, and thus I will not encourage players to bug their DMs about it. That's against the spirit of this new game, which is Rule 0 over Player Agency. If it works at others' tables, that's fine, but this handbook is for everyone.

[CrusaderJoe]

It's not a rule, period. It's not in the DMG or the PHB, and thus I will not encourage players to bug their DMs about it. That's against the spirit of this new game, which is Rule 0 over Player Agency. If it works at others' tables, that's fine, but this handbook is for everyone.

Well I agree that something like that shouldn't be in a guide (a tweet on a obscure meh ruling). I mean it isn't like the tweet is about changing frenzy to something... Good. Then yeah that would need to be in a guide.

Anyways I'm about to go into the pages of math but I figured I would ask my question before doing so but...

What about Fighter 2/Barbarian 18 (or whatever). Take twf from the fighter style and take the Duel Wielder feat (say from human varient).

You will get three attacka per turn. All three will gain all modifiers to damage (rage and modifier) 3d8+27 each round (not including crits) for when you wield two battle axes... 33 - 51 dmg.

I know there was math on Dex versus Str but did anyone do the math on this?

[Balor777]

What about Fighter 2/Barbarian 18 (or whatever). Take twf from the fighter style and take the Duel Wielder feat (say from human varient).

He deals awesome damage actualy.I just would only dip 1 level in fighter so i wont delay by another level ASI/FEATS rage damage etc.

Look at the math i did because ive read many times that barbarian is mediocre at damage dealing.
You will be surprised by the results.I calculated also critical change(19-20 for the fighter)+brutal crit(non half orc)+damage+miss chance.
At character level 11 when the fighter gets the extra attack.The dual wielder combinations have the feat for D8 weapons.The GS fighter has
the great weapon style calculated.Barbarian with GS/GA does not have this.But the dual wielder/duelist barbarian has 1 lvl dip for these styles.
Average hit chance is +24% for the recless attack.
Check the average damage per round(all attacks) for each class combination.

Spoiler: Formulas i put in the Anydice.com If you find mistakes tell me.

Show

output (6d{1..2:2,3..6:8}+15+d6*30/100)*60/100 named "Great Sword w/ GWF lvl 11 fighter 19-20 CRIT"
output (4d8+20+d8*40/100)*60/100 named "DUAL WIELDER lvl fighter 11 19-20 CRIT"
output (4d6+16+2d6*20/100)*84/100 named "GS barbarian 11 +rage+recless attack"
output (2d12+16+2d12*20/100)*84/100 named "Great Axe barbarian lvl 11+rage+recless attack "
output (3d8+24+2d8*30/100)*84/100 named "DUAL WIELDER 1LVLFighter(TWF)/10lvlbarbarian+rage+recless attack "
output (2d8+20+2d8*20/100)*84/100 named "DUELIST STYLE1LVLFighter(DS)/10lvlbarbarian+rage+recless attack"
output (3d8+30+2d8*30/100)*84/100 named "DUELIST STYLE Frenzy 1LVLFighter(DS)/10lvlbarbarian+rage+recless attack"
output (3d12+24+2d12*30/100)*84/100 named "GrAxe frenzyBerzerker 11lvl+reclessatt"
output (6d{1..2:2,3..6:8}+24+2d6*30/100)*84/100 named "GreatSword w/GWF lvl1fighter LVL10BARB +FRENZY +RAGE +RECATTACK"

http://postimg.org/image/liijs1iud/

Edit: the last one with "GreatSword w/GWF lvl1fighter LVL10BARB +FRENZY +RAGE +RECATTACK" deals massive damage.Almost double(~95%) from the fighter at the same level with the same style/weapon.
Its 42.1 damage per round for the SUPER 421 damage per frenzy duration,again misses/crits included. Frenzy is not bad at all.Its like an insurance against that "final boss-i may die battles".What could you ask more?
The same goes for the totem TWF barbarian.He deals VERY good damage.Its actualy the best DPR non Berzerker setup you can make

[Ralanr]

I've been thinking on my character build lately and I'd like some manly advice. I just hit level 6 on my barb and I'm not liking my sword and board style. I decided at level 8 I'd pick my first feat and it'd be a weapon specialty feat. Problem is that I can decide to go two handed (and if that should be great axe or greatsword/maul) or dual wielding. Dual wielding gives me a bit more freedom to grapple people (or put a weapon away and draw a throwing weapon) but two handed gives my more reasons to use reckless attack (I'm playing it safer than I should).

Here are my stats: I'm a white dragonborn
Str:18
Dex:16
Con:18
Int:12
Wis:14
Cha:16

Totem barbarian, bear and aspect of bear.

My feat plan is:
8: weapon feat
12: max strength
16: resilient or savage attacker
19: opposite of 16

I have no desire to use a polearm.

Also, think it's ok to shove a guy with the handle of the weapon?