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    Default Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    The OOTS is unlikely to find a 13th level cleric able to raise Durkon. Durkula is obviously counting on this.

    However, the Order has overcome this sort of obstacle before, thanks to V's quick and logical thinking.

    In #058, Elan is dying and Durkon is unconscious. V cast's Owl's Wisdom on Belkar to allow him to use a scroll of Cure Light scavenged from Durkon's pack.

    In #634, the IFCC indicates to V that Durkon has saved a scroll of Resurrection in case he needs to resurrect someone quickly.

    In #650, Durkon does NOT use the scroll to resurrect Roy. This is precisely the reason V leaves to fight Xykon without waiting for the rest of the Order.

    So how to get around the absence of 13th level NPC clerics? Obtain a scroll of resurrection, which the party already has, and V knows it. Whack Durkula, and take him to the temple with the highest level cleric (or to the artificer, perhaps). Buff the NPC with all resources available to enable him to make the caster level check to cast resurrection from the scroll.

    This plan is directly analogous to the plan that V came up with to save Elan in strip #058. V knows that a scroll of Resurrection exists, his logic is inexorable, and her memory practically photographic. Buffing a cleric to make that caster level check would be relatively easy if the party devoted effort to it.

    However, execution of such a plan would prematurely reveal Durkula as unwilling to be resurrected, which I think would change Roy's opinion significantly and cause problems for the storyline.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangenet View Post
    In #634, the IFCC indicates to V that Durkon has saved a scroll of Resurrection in case he needs to resurrect someone quickly.
    Potential flaw: That the IFCC claimed it does not necessarily mean it is true.
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Good point. Corroborating evidence would be necessary in order to validate the IFCC's statement. However, even if the IFCC lied, Durkon could scribe the scroll himself. Others have noted that the NPC cleric + scroll is a possibility.

    I think the most interesting thing here is that V has all the pieces and has put them together in this way before. This is not a story about what you can do with the rules, it's about the characters. Is there a reason that V would be reticent about this, given his/her experiences since Azure City? I'm not sure.

    Perhaps I should have titled the thread, "Durkon can be raised immediately, and V knows it", because I am very interested in V's ongoing internal struggle to understand and accept his/her own actions.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    The fatal flaw in this theory is finding a sucker NPC willing to take the chance. Even if you find one that is co-operative, narrative shenanigans come into play. As Haley and Celia discovered to their frustration when Roy was dead.

    Hell, might as well ask why they don't try to pump up Haley's UMD through the roof (they were planning/did have Haley use a scroll of Sending after all). Well, one might ask that if we hadn't just seen Haley UMD shenanigans this last strip.

    As for why V hasn't suggested it? Might be something as simple as him running the odds and deciding that they have a better chance at running into a level appropriate NPC once they reach a major town versus trying their luck with a scroll and a low level person. More to the point he might think the risk/reward at the moment isn't worth killing "Durkon". After all, Durkon seems "good" enough for right now. Why run the risk of killing him and have the scroll gambit fail?

    Furthermore, one of the points of his recent conversation with Belkar, I felt, was that he was uncomfortable with dealing with judgments about who deserves to live or die with limited information given his recent experiences.

    So maybe he just doesn't want to take the chance/make a decision when he doesn't have to.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangenet View Post
    In #634, the IFCC indicates to V that Durkon has saved a scroll of Resurrection in case he needs to resurrect someone quickly.
    In #634, they indicate that Durkon has a scroll of Sending, which also has a 10-minute casting time. Vaarsuvius knows about that cast time, unlike the cast time for Resurrection, because Sending is also a wizard spell.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangenet View Post
    Good point. Corroborating evidence would be necessary in order to validate the IFCC's statement. However, even if the IFCC lied, Durkon could scribe the scroll himself. Others have noted that the NPC cleric + scroll is a possibility.
    I would also like to point out that the IFCC simply dont strike me as the lying type. they manipulate the truth for sure, but i have yet to see any evidence of them outright lying to there prey. Also, even if they were to lie about this, they have nothing to gain, and they seem like the sort who would avoid lying outright over minutia when it could compromise there entire plan. they needed V to trust them (as much as you can trust powerful beings of pure evil) so lying to her simply wouldnt have served their purposes
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ridin'TheCrash View Post
    I would also like to point out that the IFCC simply dont strike me as the lying type. they manipulate the truth for sure, but i have yet to see any evidence of them outright lying to there prey. Also, even if they were to lie about this, they have nothing to gain, and they seem like the sort who would avoid lying outright over minutia when it could compromise there entire plan. they needed V to trust them (as much as you can trust powerful beings of pure evil) so lying to her simply wouldnt have served their purposes
    One thing they lied about was Durkon's presence on the ship, since Kazumi says that they hadn't seen him in days. In addition, I agree with theNater that it seems they were referring to a scroll of Sending. I think they main point of the IFCC's alternate plan was not to actually suggest a viable plan, but to show that Vaarsuvius's motives were not entirely honorable.

    Now, Durkon could write them another scroll. However, that would probably take several days that the Order doesn't have.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangenet View Post
    ...Durkon could scribe the scroll himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Now, Durkon could write them another scroll.
    Are we sure of that? It requires the Scribe Scroll feat; clerics don't get that automatically, the way wizards do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    However, that would probably take several days that the Order doesn't have.
    A little over 2 days, if my math is right. Theoretically, if he could do it at all, he could have done it during the airship trip.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Perhaps there's no need to find a cleric? Could not Haley read the scroll thanks to her Use Magic Device skill?

    But I continue to wonder which spirit would be resurrected, Durkon or Durkula/HPoH? Maybe the latter is sincere in his wish to be resurrected for this reason? If so, he doesn't know about the scroll.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Are we sure of that? It requires the Scribe Scroll feat; clerics don't get that automatically, the way wizards do.
    That's a good point. I've been assuming that he has it, but I can't find any solid evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    A little over 2 days, if my math is right. Theoretically, if he could do it at all, he could have done it during the airship trip.
    For some reason I thought it took longer.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Perhaps there's no need to find a cleric? Could not Haley read the scroll thanks to her Use Magic Device skill?
    The DC for casting the spell would be 33, and she'd have to succeed at a DC 38 roll to decipher it (probably not an issue if she can Take 20), but she'd also need Wis 17 to cast the spell. She likely does not have Wis 17, but if she has Wis 13+ V could cast Owl's Wisdom on her, or she would need to succeed at a DC 32 UMD check. I'm not sure if she could Take 10 or Take 20 on this.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Hell, might as well ask why they don't try to pump up Haley's UMD through the roof (they were planning/did have Haley use a scroll of Sending after all). Well, one might ask that if we hadn't just seen Haley UMD shenanigans this last strip.
    This. We know Haley put skill ranks into UMD last level, but how many? If they really wanted Durkon rezzed, they could have just had Haley put ALL her skill points from last level into UMD, and between that and an Eagle's Splendor spell, she might have enough to be able to have a 100% chance of using the scroll correctly.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    I think if they REALLY wanted Durkon resurrected above all other things, they would fly for Cliffport and post a sign on a tavern wall that they were looking for a cleric who could resurrect a vampire. Even if they couldn't find one on hand, they could certainly get directions to one.

    However getting Durkon resurrected is, at this point, not a pressing concern. They are trying it because the temples are conveniently located and theres little advantage to keeping him a vampire.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think if they REALLY wanted Durkon resurrected above all other things, they would fly for Cliffport and post a sign on a tavern wall that they were looking for a cleric who could resurrect a vampire. Even if they couldn't find one on hand, they could certainly get directions to one.

    However getting Durkon resurrected is, at this point, not a pressing concern. They are trying it because the temples are conveniently located and theres little advantage to keeping him a vampire.
    I don't think that's really a valid plan. The weeks it would take to fly to Cliffport and back would pretty much guarantee that Xykon gets to the gate and completes the ritual. We're trying to think of ways to resurrect Durkon that don't involve the BBEG taking over the world.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I don't think that's really a valid plan. The weeks it would take to fly to Cliffport and back would pretty much guarantee that Xykon gets to the gate and completes the ritual. We're trying to think of ways to resurrect Durkon that don't involve the BBEG taking over the world.
    Of course its not a practical plan, that's my point. Any plan that involves anything other than hoping they pass by someone who can help them at this point is a distraction from their larger goal. From Roy's perspective, there isn't any gain in allowing themselves to be distracted like that. Whether or not that's actually true due to the Vampire Spirit remains to be seen.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Agreed. They (well, most of the party) think Durkon is still Durkon. They don't see any reason to go out of their way to raise him when he's supposedly on their side and helping. Raising him can wait until after they defeat Xykon. That's why Haley picked up that wand for Elan so he can cover some of the healing ability they've lost now that Durkon can't spontaneously cast healing spells. We the readers know he's evil, but Roy, Haley, and Elan all think this is just Durkon with fangs and an aversion to sunlight, and that there is a more pressing concern of Xykon. It's not worth their time to go out of their way to attempt to raise him in a manner that might fail, leaving them short a cleric, instead of just having a cleric with a few downsides.

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    confused Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    This is ambiguous. Does Durkon have a scroll of Sending or a scroll of Resurrection? Personally, a scroll of Sending would make more sense to me.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathund View Post
    This is ambiguous. Does Durkon have a scroll of Sending or a scroll of Resurrection? Personally, a scroll of Sending would make more sense to me.
    It is definitely sending. In the comic in question you can see Durkon casting from a scroll after V has been resurrected. V would certainly not be alive if that were the resurrect scroll.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Of course its not a practical plan, that's my point. Any plan that involves anything other than hoping they pass by someone who can help them at this point is a distraction from their larger goal. From Roy's perspective, there isn't any gain in allowing themselves to be distracted like that. Whether or not that's actually true due to the Vampire Spirit remains to be seen.
    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    Agreed. They (well, most of the party) think Durkon is still Durkon. They don't see any reason to go out of their way to raise him when he's supposedly on their side and helping. Raising him can wait until after they defeat Xykon. That's why Haley picked up that wand for Elan so he can cover some of the healing ability they've lost now that Durkon can't spontaneously cast healing spells. We the readers know he's evil, but Roy, Haley, and Elan all think this is just Durkon with fangs and an aversion to sunlight, and that there is a more pressing concern of Xykon. It's not worth their time to go out of their way to attempt to raise him in a manner that might fail, leaving them short a cleric, instead of just having a cleric with a few downsides.
    Right, but if you look at the OP of this thread, he is attempting to discuss ways of resurrecting Durkon WITHOUT going out of the Order's way. Like finding a way to have an NPC cleric in their town successfully read a scroll. Or, like I suggested, spamming Haley's UMD score until she can successfully read it. Flying to Cliffport is an incredibly self-defeating waste of time. Spending a few hours to search for an NPC cleric or train using a wand is not.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2015-01-06 at 11:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Right, but if you look at the OP of this thread, he is attempting to discuss ways of resurrecting Durkon WITHOUT going out of the Order's way. Like finding a way to have an NPC cleric in their town successfully read a scroll. Or, like I suggested, spamming Haley's UMD score until she can successfully read it. Flying to Cliffport is an incredibly self-defeating waste of time. Spending a few hours to search for an NPC cleric or train using a wand is not.
    The OP is based on the assumption that Durkon has a scroll of resurrection burning a hole in his pocket. That is pretty definitely not the case.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    That comes from misreading the comic with the IFCC fiends, where they say he has a scroll of sending AND can ressurrect Vaarsuvius (but no mention of scrolls is made in that regard). So I guess that's it for this theory.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Right, but if you look at the OP of this thread, he is attempting to discuss ways of resurrecting Durkon WITHOUT going out of the Order's way. Like finding a way to have an NPC cleric in their town successfully read a scroll. Or, like I suggested, spamming Haley's UMD score until she can successfully read it. Flying to Cliffport is an incredibly self-defeating waste of time. Spending a few hours to search for an NPC cleric or train using a wand is not.
    But it's ignoring the chance that the plan could fail. That would be a pretty major part of the calculations. Raise Dead would work 100% of the time. Haley trying to use a scroll could fail, leaving them without a cleric at all. That's not worth the risk when Roy, Haley, and Elan all think Durkon is the same old Durkon with fangs. They have no reason to risk losing him before the final battle when they think he's on their side still.

    That's assuming they could even find a scroll. Assuming they can find the neccesary magical item for a plan to work, you could also assume they find the teleporation scroll/wand Vaarsuvius needs, which would allow them to teleport to Cliffport and find a cleric to raise Durkon without any risk or wasted time, because we know there are clerics out there and that Roy knows their location, Eugene was raised several times, and they attempted to raise Eric several times.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Time is not an issue. The Mechane will arrive in the nick of time. Not before, and not later.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    I think that one can fairly easily deduce from this strip that the Order didn't have a spare scroll of Resurrection lying around. Durkon would have/should have mentioned having a scroll instead of talking about the material component cost of casting the ten minute spell.

    Moreover, since casting from a scroll in OotsWorld canonically does NOT take the same time that it does to cast a spell normally (yes, I know what the official clarified 3.5 rules say - unimportant ), one might think that Durkon would have used his handy spare scroll rather than cast it "fresh" as it were. And even if one ignores the casting time debate (please please ignore it ) the fact that the supposed scroll already had the cost of the 10,000 gp diamond [dust] in it makes one think that they should have used that rather than a fresh diamond [dust].

    Yeah, yeah. Optimal play. I know. Still.

    I think the fact that this scroll hasn't been mentioned by anyone other than the IFCC makes me doubt it exists.

    *suddenly remembers*

    Especially since the lack of a diamond became a throw away joke plot point during the attempt to get Roy rezzed.

    So, yeah, no. There is no Scroll of Resurrection here. Not at the moment at least. Now asking Durkon to make one could be interesting to see from a Calling His Bluff standpoint. But that's a whole separate argument.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2015-01-06 at 03:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    So, yeah, no. There is no Scroll of Resurrection here. Not at the moment at least. Now asking Durkon to make one could be interesting to see from a Calling His Bluff standpoint. But that's a whole separate argument.
    Agreed.

    Also, that conversation would likely go "I dinna have Scribe scroll laddie" and V shrugging since he never learned how to cooperate with divine casters to scribe anything. (Not "real magic.") Roy would swallow it and the plot would keep going.

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    I think that one can fairly easily deduce from this strip that the Order didn't have a spare scroll of Resurrection lying around. Durkon would have/should have mentioned having a scroll instead of talking about the material component cost of casting the ten minute spell.

    Moreover, since casting from a scroll in OotsWorld canonically does NOT take the same time that it does to cast a spell normally (yes, I know what the official clarified 3.5 rules say - unimportant ), one might think that Durkon would have used his handy spare scroll rather than cast it "fresh" as it were. And even if one ignores the casting time debate (please please ignore it ) the fact that the supposed scroll already had the cost of the 10,000 gp diamond [dust] in it makes one think that they should have used that rather than a fresh diamond [dust].

    Yeah, yeah. Optimal play. I know. Still.

    I think the fact that this scroll hasn't been mentioned by anyone other than the IFCC makes me doubt it exists.

    *suddenly remembers*

    Especially since the lack of a diamond became a throw away joke plot point during the attempt to get Roy rezzed.

    So, yeah, no. There is no Scroll of Resurrection here. Not at the moment at least. Now asking Durkon to make one could be interesting to see from a Calling His Bluff standpoint. But that's a whole separate argument.
    Sending also takes 10 minutes to cast. I think that is the scroll the IFCC was talking about.

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    wink Re: Durkon can be resurrected [not immediately].

    I have misread #634, as a number of posters have observed. The scroll referred to is a scroll of Sending, not of Resurrection. Since the party does not have that scroll, I retract the "immediately" part of my argument.

    I (reluctantly) accept that Durkula is going to be with us for a long time to come, even if a technically feasible solution to the resurrection problem does exist.

    Really, the question is: does V want to raise Durkon? Roy is trying - will V?

    Even though V is biased towards balance, and the party is now balanced between Good and Evil, and V is inclined to be tolerant of others' alignments, I don't see V tolerating this change.

    V developed some respect for Durkon when he apologized after V returned from fighting Xykon. V also knows that the living Durkon would never have tolerated a creature like a vampire; so it boggles the mind that V would remain neutral about what has happened to him.

    Being superficially "neutral" in this case means V ignoring everything V knows about Durkon as a person.

    Thanks all for your observations about the meanings of some of the details in these strips. It's hard to recognize assumptions one doesn't realize that one has made

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected [not immediately].

    Quote Originally Posted by dangenet View Post
    I have misread #634, as a number of posters have observed. The scroll referred to is a scroll of Sending, not of Resurrection. Since the party does not have that scroll, I retract the "immediately" part of my argument.

    I (reluctantly) accept that Durkula is going to be with us for a long time to come, even if a technically feasible solution to the resurrection problem does exist.

    Really, the question is: does V want to raise Durkon? Roy is trying - will V?

    Even though V is biased towards balance, and the party is now balanced between Good and Evil, and V is inclined to be tolerant of others' alignments, I don't see V tolerating this change.

    V developed some respect for Durkon when he apologized after V returned from fighting Xykon. V also knows that the living Durkon would never have tolerated a creature like a vampire; so it boggles the mind that V would remain neutral about what has happened to him.

    Being superficially "neutral" in this case means V ignoring everything V knows about Durkon as a person.

    Thanks all for your observations about the meanings of some of the details in these strips. It's hard to recognize assumptions one doesn't realize that one has made
    "Durkon" has expressed a desire to be resurrected. If V is able to quickly solve that problem, he would likely do so.
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    There is nothing more emblematic of this forum than three or four pages of debate between people who, as it turns out, pretty much agree with each other.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected [not immediately].

    Quote Originally Posted by dangenet View Post
    stuff
    Dude, as far as forum theories go, that was pretty good comparatively.
    DZ-4049 in the 501st Legion! Silver Dragon avatar by the awesome Cuthalion!

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Durkon can be resurrected [not immediately].

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dude, as far as forum theories go, that was pretty good comparatively.
    That is true. It merely suffered a misreading of text, otherwise it was well-thought out.
    How vampires work in OOTS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    There is nothing more emblematic of this forum than three or four pages of debate between people who, as it turns out, pretty much agree with each other.

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