[3.5 Base Class], [Mythos] "Make us Whole Again"

[Quarian Rex]

Taking a slight break from PEACHing the rest of the abilities (mainly since the Legendary and Exalted abilities can be so far-reaching and involved I keep thinking of new implications and so revising my opinions) I'll comment on some of your responses/changes made. Probably for the best since those changes are still (relatively) fresh and such.

Spoiler

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CLASS SKILLS

I see that you added Diplomacy. Good call. An argument could be made for its exclusion but in the end the Kyniteros is about trying to bring itself together so having the ability to do this on a social level makes sense.

many of the other mythos classes lack the Profession skill, I always thought the whole 'town doctor' angle could be covered by the heal skill. as for disguise i'm not to sure, mundane disguises doesn't seem that related to the narrative of the Kyniteros, but I can wait for a second opinion or mull the die over.

I recommended the Disguise skill because it's essentially Craft (Fleshsculpting) when used with Structure shifting alterations. While the the Craft skill sounds better (Flesh is the medium of my art! Muwahahaha!), it is the Disguise skill that covers the mechanical effects of cosmetically altering someones appearance (something that most Kreikiri will probably be doing a lot of). As for mundane disguises, don't think of it as an infiltration skill (the Bard pretending to be a courtier or somesuch), think of it as a necessary survival skill. From a very early level this character will be making themselves, and others, appear to be quite monstrous. If they don't want to be chased out of town and burned at the stake then precautions will need to be taken. How to lash down those tentacles so that when cloaked you still present a human silhouette? Disguise skill. How to wear that veil/scarf so it doesn't look like you have a dragon muzzle? Disguise skill. Considering the physical changes that come with the grafts this skill might be required for basic human interaction. Just think about it is all I ask.

As for the Profession skill, remember, it's a catch-all skill for things that might not fit elsewhere, not just a pitifully small source of income. Profession (General) is usefull if you breed an army, and should that army conquer you may need to make rolls for Profession (Flesh Emperor). And if this class doesn't get Profession (Flesh Emperor) as a class skill who should? Who, I ask you? WHO?!? I'm joking. I'm half joking. I'm not joking at all. When eventually a roll for Flesh Emperor is made it cannot be lacking a class bonus. What are we, peasants?

Seriously though, these are two normally underused skills that have great utility with this class specifically. To not include them would be a bleeding shame.

Proficiencies

Even upon further reflection I still think that adding light armor proficiency and one martial or exotic weapon proficiency of choice is a good idea. Don't forget about these. If you have other thoughts on it I'd like to hear.

Meat shearing butchers scalpel

I'm not quite following what you mean int he first paragraph about upgrading being cheaper at lower levels

When enchanting magic weapons each '+' (whether enhancement bonus or special ability) on the weapon is more expensive than the one before. A +1 weapon is 2,000 gp, a +2 is 8,000 gp (the second '+' cost 6,000 gp), a +3 is 18,000 (the third '+' cost 10,000 gp), etc. The effect here is that over the life of the class you will provide six free '+'s. The cost of adding more will depend on when they are added. If the character adds another +4 to the weapon (so that 18th level it will be a +10 weapon) before he gets to 3rd level (before it has it's first +1) it will cost him 32,000 mythos points (gp). If he waits till 18th level (when the weapon is already +6) it will cost 128,000 mythos points (200,000 gp for a +10 weapon minus 72,000 gp for the free +6). That was why I said that it should be limited to enchantments with a flat cost.

as for the secondary attacks they were to be treated as all seconder natural attacks are. most things iv seen that offer two natural attacks are like this while a single attack is primary.

The thing here is that when given the choice between a single and multiple attacks, the single attack is usually given a bigger damage die and specified to have x1.5 Str to damage, while the multiple attacks have the advantage of, well, multiple attacks. In all cases both options are considered to be primary attacks (ie. do not suffer -5 on attack rolls). I cannot think of a single feat/power/racial ability/spell/etc. that gives you a pair of claws but makes them secondary attacks. The only time I can think of seeing a single (primary)/dual (secondary) setup like you describe is on a 3.5 bear, and even this is an anomally. Usually the claws are primary and bite is secondary (see tigers, Trolls, etc.).

Either way, the point here was that you introduced a new ruleset for natural attacks in this mythos that goes against everything else in the class. Every other natural attack provided by the class (through grafts) adds them through Ozodrin features, and all natural attacks made through Ozodrin features are considered to be primary (ie. no -5 attack penalty and no x1/2 Str bonus on damage). Actually, I think that this is the only place in the entire class that specifies an attack as being secondary.

I understand that you want to skew the cost/benefit ratio to not make multiple natural attacks be the obvious choice but I think that this is the wrong way to do it. You are allowing a signature weapon to become a signature natural attack(s). A signature ability should never be considered secondary. And how do these additional attacks interact with the limit on number of natural attacks in Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker? This is unspecified and another point of balance that needs to be considered.

I think the problem here isn't with the base ability (adding creepy magical surgical tool power to a natural weapon) but with you trying to reinvent the wheel and balance yet another natural atack power. You already have a source of natural attacks (grafts, the heart of the class) that is already quite well balanced (features from Ozodrin limited in number by Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker). Have this mythos be about empowering what is already there, not about adding more of the same, especially when Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker does it far better.

Also, the wording should be cleaned up a bit. You want to make it sound like the single attack option is getting a bonus, not like the multiple attacks are getting penalized. You could go with something like...

"at the cost of an equivalent +1 of enchantment bonus you may apply the effects of this mythos (including the increase in damage die and bonus to Heal checks) to any two existing natural attacks. If applied to a single natural attack the damage increases as if gaining a size level (this is cumulative with the previous damage die increase) and Str bonus on damage becomes x1.5. These bonuses apply only to the affected natural attacks and not to similar attacks or features."

This does what you want it to do without the headache of trying to balance the inclusion of even more attacks on a class that can already be choked on them.

Think about adding an additional advanced manifestation that would allow the Kreikiri to add this mythos bonus to any weapon he is proficient with. It would add a good counterpoint to Hunter’s claw and allow people to do things like sprout serrations on the string of a shortbow to saw through a limb, or have the end of a mancatcher hold someones head still while the haft digs into the torso and works it like a chest-spreader. This would also provide an option for those who want to have a relatively unchanged Kreikiri (mad scientist type of thing) while being surrounded by freaks.

I have now spent way to much time on a relatively minor ability, but as-is it just sticks out and seems... jumbled maybe. Out of place. It just needs to be better integrated into the systems of this class instead of seeming like it was copied out of some other class that you never quite finished. Moving on.

True Surgeon’s Skill

Was good before, still is. Adding limb reattachment to Flesh reknitting mastery is niche but useful. Nice.

I'm adding to 'Limb-shredding graft-taker' that on a failed heal check you may not attempt to attach that graft to any creature for 24 hours (a bit arbitrary, I know, but it seems fair to me).

This is actually really good. This provides functionally unlimited out of combat healing that can still hit a snag and so requires back-up plans. Double nice.

Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker

Very happy to see the clarification on vivisection but I question this...

... and makes them unsuitable for all future harvesting...

Creatures that can recover from the most grievous of wounds, going so far as to grow back limbs (and sometimes even heads), should be able to replenish the bits of muscle, ligament, and viscera that was removed from them. Tie this to the ability drain. A creature cannot be harvested for graft points again till the Con Drain has been healed. Because it is Drain it cannot be healed naturally (so normals cannot be re-harvested) but regenerating trolls or those affected by powerful magic (ie. Restoration) are valid targets once again.

I'm aware that you are concerned about this becoming a fountain of free Graft points but don't. The rate of Drain healing for regenerating creatures (1 point/week) is low enough that a troll harvest can only happen once every 1d6 weeks. That is a long time for the DM to screw with the players troll farm operation. Other options are either expensive (Restoration costs 100gp a cast, using that money to buy cattle would probably get a better gp/Graft point ratio) or high enough level to not be a real concern (Regenerate is a 7th ot 9th level spell after all, and you need to specify that this spell can heal all of the Con Drain from graft harvesting since healing ability drain is beyond the normal scope of the spell).

Perhaps if the wording were something like...

"Vivisecting a creature (and leaving it alive at the end) causes it to be considered one size category smaller for the amount of Graft points received. The surviving creature takes d6 constitution drain and is left alive at zero HP. The constitution drain may be cured normally or with a Regenerate spell or similar effects (Regenerate heals all constitution drain from this ability but has no effect on any other form of ability drain), and creatures with regeneration heal from the drain at one point/week. Surviving a vivisection in this way makes a creature unsuitable for future harvesting until their constitution drain has been healed completely."

That clears things up a bit. What do you think?

You may limit the magic item’s use to 50 charges for only half the normal point cost, or to a maximum uses per day equal to X, where X is cost of magic items divided by the desired maximum uses per day.

Just change this to, "You may limit the magic item’s use to 50 charges for only half the normal point cost, or use other such modifiers as per magic item creation in the DMG with DM permission", or something like that. The charges per day thing needs the full formula to make actual sense and doesn't add anything to the sentence. You now have a concrete example and a reference to further options. No need for more. Also note that if a graft duplicates a magic item that would normally need a UMD check to activate the check is comnsidered to be automatically successful. Unless you want a roll. Either way, spell it out.

To create a graft that grants a 20ft swim speed...

Minor correction, each Fin feature provides 10ft swim speed, so the graft should give 40ft swim speed.

Any creature may be given no more natural attacks from grafts than 2+ ¼ of the HD of the Kreikiri Appling the graft, increasing to ¾ their HD at level 15 and the limit being removed at level 20.

This is important enough that you should remove it from this paragraph and leave it seperate. Each time I look for it I keep skipping past it due to placement. I like how you did the limit, with a big jump at 15th and then letting them go nuts at 20th (level 20 is crazytown anyway). I think the rate needs some tweaking though. Going from 1/4 to 3/4 is... awkward. What about 2+ 1/3 levels goint to 2+ 2/3 levels at 15th. Gives a slight boost to the early levels, easier math, less ponderous progression, and, most importantly, gives an even number of attacks at 12th (last change before the big boost at 15).

A graft on a dead creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed on the creature’s death should the body be in a suitable state to be resurrected and may not be recovered if the body is destroyed, e.g. a disintegrate spell was used.

Just specify what happens to grafts on a Raised/Resurrected character. Dose each graft have a 50% chance of being destroyed (since he died) or is the return to life strong enough magic to restore the grafts as well? How about Raising has a 50% chance of restoring destroyed grafts, Resurrection restores automatically, and Regeneration can restore any grafts lost to death if used within 24hrs of returning to life? Something like that? Let me know what you think.

I would also suggest that you add a caveat under graft creation saying that a graft can be broken down into its component graft points with a minutes work or something like that. Over the life of the character he will be upgrading a lot of grafts. This will reward them for using grafts early and often, instead of saving up for just the right one.

One last thing...

Have the base ability able to harvest from all the "normal" stuff, including corporeal undead (flesh is flesh, right?) but exclude Constructs, Plants, and Elementals (and maybe Outsiders too? I don't know, I'm on the fence about that one). Add a basic manifestation to be able to harvest them (call it Reap the Neverborn perhaps?).

I mentioned this in my first post. Reconsider it. Not only does it provide a nice progression but it also helps DMs choke down the homebrew. This way, if a DM balks at the thought of you harvesting the 'organs' of a sentient bonfire he can delay or ban a single manifestation instead of the base mythos of the class. Doesn't really change the capabilities of the class, just provides some flexibility and lets it have a better chance of being allowed at the gaming table.

Stable implement of empowerment

This right here...

By spending four (+2 per time this manifestation is applied to a graft, so 4,6,8,10,12,ect.) points you may form...

... is still ambiguous. Is the cost cumulative or not? The way it is worded it is not clear. Do three mutations added to the same graft cost 8 Graft points (4+2+2) of 18 (4+6+8)? This needs to be spelled out. For the record, I think it should be the more expensive option.

I mentioned in my first post that I think you should add something like this...

"For the purpose of placing mutations in grafts the graft maker is considered to have a mutator level equal to his Kreikiri level. The mutations granted by this ability use the Kreikiri’s mutator level to determine the limit for how many times they can be taken, but use the target's hit dice as his mutator level to determine the power of the mutations. These limitations are applied to the host of the grafts so any mutations in excess of the normal limit (having multiple identical grafts with the same mutations applied to the same creature) simply go dormant, though other aspects of the graft will remain active as normal."

... and it is still desperately needed. While adding Ozodrin features and augments without regard for level limitations was a good call (I always found that staggering out the features and such of the Ozodrin just for the sake of progression was the main weakness of the class. It takes too long to be able to change into something interesting), doing the same with mutations raises some massive balance problems. I don't think unrestricted access was your intention, but this point needs to be spelled out. The bolded part is a new bit that I think should be added to cover the nature of grafts.

An exception to the mutations that may be taken is the spell-like abilities and psi-like abilities mutations. Instead these mutations grant a single spell or psi (as appropriate) like ability useable once a day with a graft point cost of 2 per level of the spell but only adds an amount equal to the level of the spell/power to the implantation DC, instead of its normal value.

For the love of the baby Jebus H. Cristos, please no. This is a gamebreaker right here and throws balance right out the window. These mutations only work with the Evolutionist because once chosen they are more or less static (can only be changed on level-up). Having them as an option on grafts (even with the minor nerfing you have done here) makes the Kreikiri the premier spellcaster in the game. They have grater spell access than Wizards (no need for a spellbook, automatic access to Psionic Powers, and then eventually they can select from Cleric, Druid, Artificer, etc lists once the other mutation lists open up). They can create grafts for new spells in minutes and implant in only an hour (or a single full atack if using Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry). Most damning of all, this can be done cheaply.

This class already has access to a wealth of powers and special abilities through normal grafts and now mutations. They even have access to spell-likes and such if they can find a creature to harvest them from, but at least that is under the control of the DM (what monsters you can find) and even then you have to pry those abilities from their steaming corpse. If they really need access to a specific spell then it can already be done through the much more expensive (and therefore much more balanced) existing mechanic of incorporating magic items.

Allowing the use of the Spell-like/Psi-like mutations in grafts does not add any new capabilities to the class whatsoever. It just removes all barriers to use and so shatters the (damn fine) existing balance of the class. Let spellcasters do the spellcasting. Please, please reconsider.

Skill-of-the-flesh

The creature does not need to meet the perquisites of the feat.

Perhaps change this to, "The creature does not need to meet perquisites of the feat other than feat prerequisites.". Skipping to the end of a feat chain to cherry-pick the best one, or worse yet grabbing a feat that builds on mechanics of a pre-req that the character does not have, fills me with dread. This is a minor inconvenience for the grafter but prevents things from becoming a train-wreck later on.

Monster-Making Beast-Lord

The changes you made have really cleaned things up. There are still a couple of points of wording and such but good.

... or the creature may instead be immortal for +5 points...

Perhaps 'unaging' would be better than immortal, no questions of whether the creature can actually be killed or not. Also, +5 points? In reality this is more of a flavour thing (most campaigns would not go on long enough for it to make a difference), but do you want it to be that cheap? Just wondering.

... you spend your graft points to produce any number of grafts... grafts created at this time cease to be considered grafts in any way...

Seriously, just remove reference to the added features being grafts. It just muddies things. Saying something like...

"During creation you may spend Graft points to add capabilities (and limbs, sensory organs, etc.) to a creature just as you would to a graft and these become natural parts of the creatures’ anatomy, making up the basic appearance and form of the creature, as well as that of any offspring it may produce. The graft point cost for any features and augmentations contained within the creature is increased by five times its base cost, and magic items have their base cost tripled (for a net cost of x5 for features and augmentations, and x3 for magic items). The creature counts as a single graft for the purposes of stacking features and such."

This way the language clarifies that any upgrade to your grafting abilities (can add mutations, etc.) apply to creatures, and also that the creature is considered to be a single graft for feature stacking purposes. Previously you could add Skill-of-the-flesh once each to however many grafts to get around the stacking penalty. Wording like this negates that kind of shenanigans.

Enhanced Potential

You might want to specify that the cost becomes cumulative when applied again to the same ability. Want general improvements and to fill any weaknesses? No problem. Want to add +30 to Str? That should be expensive.

Advanced form

The cost example just needs to be corrected to a base cost of 25. Currently still using 5.

Hidden Power

Just replace 'graft' with 'feature' and you'll be fine.

Cascade of Life

I still think that double cost would be better, but this is something that will need some playtesting, so I'll defer to your judgement. I think that in an earlier version of this you had it that immortal creatures could not breed. I think you should bring that back. It's a small thing but saying something like, "A creature that is created as unaging is not eligibe to receive Cascade of Life.", could prevent a Malthusian catastrophe and provide a sharp line between an eternal servitor and a new addition to the circle of life. You also have enough options in this class to provide extended lifespans to crestures that it should not be a problem if you want to reward the best breeders with more life.

Man-is-monster restoration

Holy crapsnacks, what a turnaround! This is good. This is interesting. The chance to lose limbs, racial abilities (but not ability modifiers, size, etc.), and even subtype so that they can come back (mechanicaly) not quite human is very good. It combines to make a perfect homage to the Frankenstien thing you seem to be going for. Even the ability loss (with a chance of no loss) is now within reason (and potential recuperation).

The only real comments I have are that you just need to say how long the Heal check takes and remove the reference to grafts as I suggested above. In fact, just make this an additional option when harvesting Graft points. Say that the harvesting always counts as a vivisection (reduces graft points even on an already dead creature) that can retain the creatures mind on a Heal check of etc., etc.

Also, this is a manifestation of Monster-Making Beast-Lord, let it use those rules (remove reference to grafts as I mentioned above), it's more consistent. As for cost, just make it all half the cost of a normal creature. You are still, essentially, adding new racial features so it shouldn't be as cheap as a graft, but not as costly as making a creature whole-cloth.

Lastly, do you need to make the creation check as with a created creature? It isn't specified. Considering the time, costs, potential drawbacks, and initial harvesting check, I would say let it succeed automatically. Thoughts?

Beastmaster's Coiled Lash

Beast Mastering Hand

See my first post for comments. They still stand, especially for the activation time. How do you see this ability being used at the game table, and on what targets? Right now it just seems like it would break down in actual play.

Anatomy-twisting bestial-genesis

You have done some interesting work on this one but it does bring up some more questions both about what you have said and what you have not said. The main thing I have to ask is, what do you see this ability as being? Is it a boosted animal companion with some extra options? Is it a general companion/bodyguard/henchman replacement? Is it the chance to make a single creature with the class' signature ability that you don't have to worry about turning on you/DM dickery? Right now you seem to be sitting on the fence about what this can do and I think that the ability is suffering for it. You say that it is created like a creature (good) but then limit the types of creature it can be (no Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Magical Beast, Outsider, or Vermin, despite vermin being used in a later example). You allow selecting different creature types then say that the creature type has no effect on most of its characteristics (HD size, BAB, skills, saves, etc.). This seems... like a mistake.

If you are going to be straddling the line between Animal Companions and Henchmen (which, for the record, I think is a pretty brilliant idea) then you need to sharply define where it crosses from being one to being the other. That and bring it more in line with the rules for each.

Start with changing the base HD to Kreikiri levels -2 (as with henchmen) instead of equal to your level. This way it starts slightly worse than the equivalent animal companion (so not completely overshadowing another PCs class ability) but is infinitely more versatile. The HD catch up with Animal Companions at 11th and wind up being higher by 15th. This provides a nice pregression, not destroying the competition when you first get it bit staying relevent at higher levels. Say that HD size, BAB, saves, skill points, feats, and normal attribute increases (once every 4 HD) progress as per normal for their HD and creature type (adjusting alternate creature type costs to compensate) but that they gain Natural Armor Bonus, Str/Dex Bonus, Bonus Tricks (if of animal intelligence), and Special abilities as per the Animal Companion class ability of a Druid of the Kreikiri's level. Say that the companions Intelligence must be lowered to animal levels (1 or 2) using Decreased Potential (granting extra points as usual), is automatically considered to be unaging and so cannot select Cascade of Life (no breeding for you!).

As an option (or even as an advanced manifestation), the Kreikiri could grant the Companion sapience. For the cost of 100 Graft points (maybe more, maybe less?) the Intelligence limit may be removed. Should this option be chosen the Kreikiri may convert one HD into a class level of chouce at the cost of 25 Graft points. This option may me chosen multiple times with the cost doubling for each additional HD converted (25 for the first, 50 for the second, 100 for the third, 200 fourth, etc). Any requirements for these class levels (in the case of PRC's and such) must be met by the creature before they can be selected. The costs for these two options (sapience and HD conversion) must be paid from the Kreikiri's Graft point reserve, not with the points provided by this mythos, representing the additional effort required to uplift his fleshy experiment.

This covers everything that you seem to be trying to do, initially working within the limits of a creepy Animal Companion and then providing the (costly) option to exceed those limits. An interesting side effect is that due to the mounting cost of converting HD to class levels this also acts as a reasonable limit on the capabilities of the characters henchman (some DMs don't like the idea of a player essentially having two full PCs).

You might want to add a limitation that once this Mythos is taken any existing Animal Companion, Familiar, Mount, or Henchman (from the Leadership feat or similar abilities, but not hirelings, loyal creatures, etc.) immediately leaves the character. Not allowing the stacking of uber-loyal minions is probably a good idea.

The creature type costs might need some treaking. Things like Animal and Humanoid should be listed as a 0 cost, Monstrous Humanoid and Magical Beast (both having full BAB, better HD, 2 good saves, Darkvision, etc.) should be 50, Dragons and Outsiders maybe 100. Balancing the costs of the others will need some thought. This also brings me to...

... as undead increase their HP using their CHA modifier which is relatively simple to buff...

This is a Pathfinder thing, not 3.5. Granted, I actually prefer Pathfinder (quite a bit) but the capabilities of the base creature types can be suprisingly different. While Undead have a host of immunities they also lose all bonus Hp (in 3.5), have the worst BAB, poor saves, and can be Turned/Destroyed by Clerics. Similar story with constructs. And both get a little screwed for additional grafts (no +Con bonus). In short, I think the costs need heavy retooling. Ask yourself how many levels of customization are these creature traits worth? Currently, a 7th level Kreikiri who takes this as a mythos and wants an undead minion (character concept, backstory, creepy fetish, whatever) would have 5 points to spend on senses and maybe a limb (nope, a limb would be too expensive) after he pays for a torso. That doesn't seem right.

Another thought, you might want to include a seperate value (with an '*' or something and a note) for Pathfinder. While 3.5 to 3.P is usually a pretty straightforward conversion these costs may need some tweaking. I'll have to give this some more thought before I can provide any really constructive criticism on creature type costs.

Continued experimentation

The benefits of this seem somewhat bland. What if the graft capability of the Companion was standard +1 (a little under the Kreikiri himself) but this provided an extra 2+1/4 level grafts? Same resulting total but this is a little more attractive and not an automatic skip in favour of Re-genesis gambit.

Also, were these always Basic manifestations? They are both significant enough upgrades that are not intrinsic to the base ability that I think you should make them Advanced manifestations. Just seems a better fit.

Organ-tearing freakish-overlord

Lord of warped flesh

Change ododren ->Ozodrin. Might want to restrict it to non-epic prestige classes. Already stole a big prize from one. Best not to push ones luck.

Looks like this got overlooked.

Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry

... always dealing nonleathal damage, up to a maximum amount of such damage equal to their maximum HP (and thus sufficient to leave them unconscious).

This is a good limiter on the graft power that can be added and is easy math, so quick to resolve at the table. Nice.

Additionally at his time you may consider them a creature you made for the purposes of applying instincts from the ‘Mental-lords’ unity’ mythos,,,

This part needs to go. Creatures created with Mental-lords’ unity do not get saves. Adding Mental-lords’ unity as a graft does allow saves. Do not confuse the two. The wording here is pointless and then immediately contradicts itself. Besides, with the great changes you've made to Man-is-monster restoration you now have an option to make an existing creature/character into a created creature with all the changes that entails. This is the quick and dirty option.

... the target must pass a will save or be subject to an effect identical to a non-magical confusion spell that lasts for 2d6 rounds, to which you may add or subtract a number of rounds duration up to your wisdom modifier...

This is odd. In my previous recomendation I meant that the duration should be modified by the victims Wis modifier. That way the max-Wis Cleric will be able to come to terms with his new predicament relatively quickly but the low-Wis Renfield type will be gibbering like a madman for extra time.

You might want to change it to something like...

"... identical to a non-magical confusion spell that lasts for 2d6 rounds, to which you subtract a number of rounds duration up to the victims wisdom modifier (note that a negative wisdom modifier will result in a longer duration), and you may use the handle animal skill..."

Unless you're going for something else. Thoughts?

Once the creatures intelligence becomes zero it is replaced with ‘-‘and the mindless special quality, but retaining any bonus feats and skill bonuses the creature has, including those from grafts.

I get that you want mindless minions to retain something of what they were but this is worded oddly. As is, it sounds like they lose their level feats but retain bonus feats (like from being a fighter) and retain all of their skill ranks. This seems off and problematic. A mindless creature should not retain all of its previous sage-like knowledge, and as for feats, what if it loses a prereq? How about changing it to something like...

"Once the creatures intelligence becomes zero it is replaced with ‘-‘ and the mindless special quality, but retaining any feats it has, and skill ranks are modified as if the creature had an Intelligence of 1."

This way there are no feat paradoxes and a mindless Rogue can still be useful in a couple of ways thanks to muscle memory. Thoughts?

You may allow a creature to be left with an intelligence score by paying mythos points equal to 150 per point of intelligence you desire a creature to have (up to their starting level), for example 150 for an intelligence of 1, or 1500 for an intelligence of 10, etc.

This is good. A scaling cost based on how much you want to preserve is so nice.

Once the creature stops taking intelligence drain it is treated as a creature you created for being release for mythos points...

Interesting little perk. I quite like it.

... and it becomes zealously loyal to you, and its entire personality warps to consider what you did to it an improvement.

This I see as problematic. With this line you can walk into a villiage, give everyone in town a 'makeover', and then leave them in gibbering chaos. Since you're not around they stop taking Int drain (indeed, they never even start) and when you swing back in a week ot a month you have an entire villiage full of minions. This just doesn't work, and actually goes against the spirit of the class since at 7th level you can now have perfect mind-control over your minions.

This line also steps all over the toes of Mental-lords’ unity. You have a good balance of having to carefully choose limited wording for limited instincts, leaving open all kinds of opportunities for roleplaying, creative interpretation, and shenanigans. That's even part of the basic balance of the class. You can make cool minions but it is really hard to make them into perfect mind-slaves. That one line throws all that right out the window. Please reconsider.

Mental-lords’ unity

Dropping it down so that each purchase of this feature provides only a single instinct seems like a good call. It forces the player to prioritize instructions and/or get creative with them.

Grafts: you may add a single instinct to a graft, the instinct effects the creature the graft is implanted into. The target is entitled to a will save to resist the instinct on the grafts initial implantation, with a +5 bonus if the instinct would force them to do something significantly against their nature, for example if forced to assist follow a cause they do not believe in. the creature must retake the save should the graft be removed and re-implanted. Each identical instinct the creature possesses (i.e. from implanting additional grafts with the same instinct) increases the DC of the save by +2.

Boosting the DC for multiple implants of the same instinct? Great idea. The wording of the rest? We need to talk. You should probably treat this as a long-term Charm/Dominate hybrid. You want the control from a graft to be shakey but not all-or-nothing so having them make a save on implantation doesn't really work. The +5 bonus to save is a little nuts (you may have pulled this from the Charm Person spell, but that is only there if you're trying to convince someone that you're their friend after you've stabbed them). And you haven't clearly defined the effects of a successful save. Is the instinct now useless? Do they only have a temporary reprieve?

How about no initial save. They had to be rendered helpless for at least an hour to have the instinct graft implanted so lets just let it take effect. The saves should be against individual triggerings of the instinct, not to permanently nullify the entire graft feature. Mindless and animal level intelligence creatures will follow the instinct automatically, no save, but creatures of intelligence 3 or higher can, as a Standard Action, roll a Will save to temporarily resist the instinct.

Success means that they can act without regard to the instinct for a number of rounds (not counting the current round) equal to their Wisdom bonus (min. 1). Might have to think of better wording here. I think that it's important that the voluntary attempt to reject the instinct should cost an action but that on a success they should be able to take some actual action (ie, their next full action).

If they fail the Will save then they must follow the Instinct for the next minute without getting any further saves. This would allow a would-be mind-slave to have those moments of conscience ("Leave before I kill you, I can't stop myself for long...") with the gamble that failure results in complete submission to the instinct.

A subject forced to take actions against its nature (a parent about to kill its offspring, a Drow forced to protect an elf villiage) receives a saving throw with a +2 bonus (similar to the Dominate spells) without having to use an action. If this occurs within a minute of a previously failed Will save against the instinct then no save is allowed, as per above. Subjects are aware of this and can make choices accordingly.

This way a creature (or player) always has the option to resist but at the potential cost of being unable to resist should they really need to resist. I think this would be much more interesting when used in actual play allowing the DM some options with NPCs, and even the players should this be turned on them.

The rest, limit on unsavable instincts in created creatures, description of instincts, conflicting instincts, all good. Only thing that I would add clarification on is the cost of this ability in a creature. You have already specified different effect for grafts and creatures, might as well list the creature cost as well for clarity. This is also an interesting balance point, do you want it to cost 250 or 150?

Mind-warping restructuring

I like the setup as an additional option on an existing instinct. I like the seperate duration option instead of trying to fit it into the wording. I like that the creature knows what triggered the condition. Only two things that I would tweak. The first is put a 10 word limit on the triggering statement. Currently it is unlimited and that can get nuts. The second is this...

... should the creature save against the instinct they are also immune to the application of that mythos tied to that instinct.

Keep these seperate. Let Mind-warping restructuring be used as a failsafe (Condition of 'Nauseated', trigger of 'resists instinct', duration of 5 rounds, etc.). Resisting one should not provide immunity to the other. And since you can only add one Mind-warping restructuring to each instinct the Kreikiri needs to decide whether he wants an instinct failsafe or some other trigger. This leads to some great choices for the player and some fun things for the DM to exploit.

Illusionary land-realignment

This is great and seems like it can be stacked with Mind-warping restructuring above, so double great. Only thing that I would add would be that the new perception would need to be described in 10 words or less as per normal.

Stitched nightmare

The language is cleaned up and it is now an extremely solid ability. Just...

Unlike a normal graft the one gained from this mythos does not have to be a single structure but rather its effect may be anywhere on your body (essentially your entire body is this graft).

... take this line out. It no longer has a purpose considering the changes you made to the previous wording.

Also, I can't remember if the features of the Mythos carying over after Reincarnation and such was there before but if not, that change is pure gold.

I'll finish off the rest shortly™. I haven't lost interest, just been busy/lazy.

[Necroticplague]

Um, I think Paralystic Barb had some autocorrect issues while being written, because it seems like all instances of 'multiple' have 'mutable' instead. A lot of 'you may take this manifestation mutable times'.

Edit: Skill of the Flesh and Resculpting the Flesh also have this issue.

Edit Edit: Also, the title says this is a 3.5 class, but it references pathfinder things, like CMD, CMB, Bleed effects,and the Grab ability.

[ThreadNecro5]

Um, I think Paralystic Barb had some autocorrect issues while being written, because it seems like all instances of 'multiple' have 'mutable' instead. A lot of 'you may take this manifestation mutable times'.

Edit: Skill of the Flesh and Resculpting the Flesh also have this issue.

Edit Edit: Also, the title says this is a 3.5 class, but it references pathfinder things, like CMD, CMB, Bleed effects,and the Grab ability.

I'll get around to fixing these errors. as for the accidental pathfinder mechanic references, those are an accidental inclusion that came about as I generally play pathfinder, and my experience with 3.5 is actually mainly limited to translating mechanics and such over, so a few rule differences I missed must have worked their way in. I usually check things over to make sure the mechanics are correct with 3.5 rules.

Taking a slight break from PEACHing the rest of the abilities (mainly since the Legendary and Exalted abilities can be so far-reaching and involved I keep thinking of new implications and so revising my opinions) I'll comment on some of your responses/changes made. Probably for the best since those changes are still (relatively) fresh and such.

I recommended the Disguise skill because it's essentially Craft (Fleshsculpting) when used with Structure shifting alterations. While the the Craft skill sounds better (Flesh is the medium of my art! Muwahahaha!), it is the Disguise skill that covers the mechanical effects of cosmetically altering someones appearance (something that most Kreikiri will probably be doing a lot of). As for mundane disguises, don't think of it as an infiltration skill (the Bard pretending to be a courtier or somesuch), think of it as a necessary survival skill. From a very early level this character will be making themselves, and others, appear to be quite monstrous. If they don't want to be chased out of town and burned at the stake then precautions will need to be taken. How to lash down those tentacles so that when cloaked you still present a human silhouette? Disguise skill. How to wear that veil/scarf so it doesn't look like you have a dragon muzzle? Disguise skill. Considering the physical changes that come with the grafts this skill might be required for basic human interaction. Just think about it is all I ask.

As for the Profession skill, remember, it's a catch-all skill for things that might not fit elsewhere, not just a pitifully small source of income. Profession (General) is usefull if you breed an army, and should that army conquer you may need to make rolls for Profession (Flesh Emperor). And if this class doesn't get Profession (Flesh Emperor) as a class skill who should? Who, I ask you? WHO?!? I'm joking. I'm half joking. I'm not joking at all. When eventually a roll for Flesh Emperor is made it cannot be lacking a class bonus. What are we, peasants?

you Make a good point for disguise with the whole 'needed for human interaction' thing, I never considered that as it seems I am a rather lenient GM in that regard. as for profession, Well I'm now adding it just so that roll may be made one day.

Even upon further reflection I still think that adding light armor proficiency and one martial or exotic weapon proficiency of choice is a good idea. Don't forget about these. If you have other thoughts on it I'd like to hear.

I meant to add those proficiency, must have got distracted.


as for all the stuff with 'Meat shearing butchers scalpel' I will clean it up and work in your idea for an additional advanced manifestation, thinking of causing 'Hunter’s claw' to instead transfer your weapon enchantments to a natural attack.

Creatures that can recover from the most grievous of wounds, going so far as to grow back limbs (and sometimes even heads), should be able to replenish the bits of muscle, ligament, and viscera that was removed from them. Tie this to the ability drain. A creature cannot be harvested for graft points again till the Con Drain has been healed. Because it is Drain it cannot be healed naturally (so normals cannot be re-harvested) but regenerating trolls or those affected by powerful magic (ie. Restoration) are valid targets once again.

I'm aware that you are concerned about this becoming a fountain of free Graft points but don't. The rate of Drain healing for regenerating creatures (1 point/week) is low enough that a troll harvest can only happen once every 1d6 weeks. That is a long time for the DM to screw with the players troll farm operation. Other options are either expensive (Restoration costs 100gp a cast, using that money to buy cattle would probably get a better gp/Graft point ratio) or high enough level to not be a real concern (Regenerate is a 7th ot 9th level spell after all, and you need to specify that this spell can heal all of the Con Drain from graft harvesting since healing ability drain is beyond the normal scope of the spell).

I like your ideas for this. will use them.

This is important enough that you should remove it from this paragraph and leave it seperate. Each time I look for it I keep skipping past it due to placement. I like how you did the limit, with a big jump at 15th and then letting them go nuts at 20th (level 20 is crazytown anyway). I think the rate needs some tweaking though. Going from 1/4 to 3/4 is... awkward. What about 2+ 1/3 levels goint to 2+ 2/3 levels at 15th. Gives a slight boost to the early levels, easier math, less ponderous progression, and, most importantly, gives an even number of attacks at 12th (last change before the big boost at 15).

will do. also the simpler math is probably a goods idea,as for my logic for removing the limit a level 20, well... the wizard is probably rewriting reality almost at will.


as dealing with resurrected characters and their grafts, I'l probably work it similarly to your suggestion.

as for the ability to 'break down' grafts i've intentionally not done that as I don't want graft point to become too cheep, but I might work it into a manifestation.

as for needing a manifestation to harvest particular creatures iv already added that you need something to touch the creature with first, so you already need to expend some resources for it.

i'll begin some alterations now, and reply to the rest of your comments tomorrow when I can think better (got a bit frustrated earlier when writing a mythos for something else).

[Quarian Rex]

as for the ability to 'break down' grafts i've intentionally not done that as I don't want graft point to become too cheep, but I might work it into a manifestation.

The "too cheep" concern is an odd one. The key is trying to find the sweet spot where the player has enough to experiment with (particularly at low levels) so that the capabilities of this class can be used right out of the gate without destabilizing the game economy (this can be used to make magic items after all). I think a lot of the balance is cooked right into the rules that you already have. For the most part the cost of the graft is equal to the DC of implantation, limiting the ability of large Graft point pools to unbalance things too much.

By the time the player can start making truly disruptive grafts (duplicating magic items that are significantly better that mundane options) he will already have to have arranged an excessively large Graft point income/pool since useful magic items cost thousands of Graft points (at least). Once the Kreikiri has a farm of collossal sized, self-replicating, limbless, flesh-beasts at his disposal many of the limitations of his craft will fall away. Until then he will be trying to scrape the resources he needs off of the carcasses of the last low-level orc encounter.

Due to the way you have Graft point harvesting set up the lower levels will be especially starved. One or two HD medium sized creatures (or even small if your DM likes goblins and kobolds) and limited combat encounters will result in an extremely limited resource pool probably for the first few levels at least. I'm not complaining here, I think the values for Graft point harvesting are probably bang-on, just pointing out that it is going to be a slow start for this class to get into its schtick. And this class is about experimentation. Adding tentacles/claws/fangs/wings/hooves/eyes to oneself/fellow PCs/the town drunk may turn out to be a bad idea (for whatever reason) and the ability to correct the mistake and have the ability to try again is paramount, even with limited resources (especially with limited resources). After all, you want to encourage players to make mistakes (they can be soooo much fun for all envolved) and that won't happen if they get into the habit of thinking of every graft as an irrecoverable investment.

As you may have guessed, I think this needs to be an option. That said, the thought of having it as a manifestation is damn good. If it's a basic manifestation of Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker then there is the added opportunity cost of choosing it over the other options. Forcing the player to choose between versatility and utility is always interesting.

as for needing a manifestation to harvest particular creatures iv already added that you need something to touch the creature with first, so you already need to expend some resources for it.

I did notice that but it only applies to incorporeal creatures and that isn't really the concern. My main concern here is providing the gaming group (specifically the DM) some options. I have DM'd games with homebrew where things went way off the rails because the PCs had abilities (homebrew) that could take what I was throwing at them and then use it against me. That wasn't a problem with most encounters but sometimes you want the PCs to go up against something just a little out of their league, let them feel like they're punching above their weight class. When those mid-boss type abilities are now available to the PCs (in this class it would be due to Stable implement of empowerment) then either future combat encounters are trivialized or it forces an escalation of arms that will eventually only empower the PCs even more.

What I'm saying here is that having unrestricted harvesting access complicates the DMs job and so makes it even less likely for this particular homebrew to be accepted (it already allows the creation of permanent buffs and actual, permanent, creature creation). Give the DMs a break and give them the opportunity to decide which encounters can enhance the PCs abilities and which will not. Drawing a line between harvesting flesh, and harvesting the flesh of the fleshless, is a logically consistent option is all. Consider it is all I ask.

... reply to the rest of your comments tomorrow when I can think better (got a bit frustrated earlier when writing a mythos for something else).

Take your time good sir. Frustration is a side effect of trying to squeeze cool ideas onto a page. I can find if frustrating trying to organize my thoughts into something vaguely coherent just for these PEACH's and I'm not even the one who came up with any of it. There is a reason I tend to be a better editor than a writer.

[ThreadNecro5]

now for the second part of my reply, i'll probably also need a third as iv little time.

as for your suggestion to limit the harvesting of certain creatures, iv added that, with the 'Organ tearing freakish overlord' mythos removing the limitation. seems an appropriate time considering what the manifestations could allow.

For the love of the baby Jebus H. Cristos, please no. This is a gamebreaker right here and throws balance right out the window. These mutations only work with the Evolutionist because once chosen they are more or less static (can only be changed on level-up). Having them as an option on grafts (even with the minor nerfing you have done here) makes the Kreikiri the premier spellcaster in the game. They have grater spell access than Wizards (no need for a spellbook, automatic access to Psionic Powers, and then eventually they can select from Cleric, Druid, Artificer, etc lists once the other mutation lists open up). They can create grafts for new spells in minutes and implant in only an hour (or a single full atack if using Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry). Most damning of all, this can be done cheaply.

it seems that this ability has implications I did not realize, also I suppose the use of wands would work for getting spells, I personally always forget about them.

Perhaps 'unaging' would be better than immortal, no questions of whether the creature can actually be killed or not. Also, +5 points? In reality this is more of a flavour thing (most campaigns would not go on long enough for it to make a difference), but do you want it to be that cheap? Just wondering.

as you said it is unlikely to come up, and if it is going to be needed, then it is probably something that is fundamental to the creature's function. as for the name, generally isn't unageing what immortality usually refers to in the game?

Seriously, just remove reference to the added features being grafts. It just muddies things. Saying something like...

"During creation you may spend Graft points to add capabilities (and limbs, sensory organs, etc.) to a creature just as you would to a graft and these become natural parts of the creatures’ anatomy, making up the basic appearance and form of the creature, as well as that of any offspring it may produce. The graft point cost for any features and augmentations contained within the creature is increased by five times its base cost, and magic items have their base cost tripled (for a net cost of x5 for features and augmentations, and x3 for magic items). The creature counts as a single graft for the purposes of stacking features and such."

This way the language clarifies that any upgrade to your grafting abilities (can add mutations, etc.) apply to creatures, and also that the creature is considered to be a single graft for feature stacking purposes. Previously you could add Skill-of-the-flesh once each to however many grafts to get around the stacking penalty. Wording like this negates that kind of shenanigans.

will work this in then., also will make the other changes for the augments.

Holy crapsnacks, what a turnaround! This is good. This is interesting. The chance to lose limbs, racial abilities (but not ability modifiers, size, etc.), and even subtype so that they can come back (mechanicaly) not quite human is very good. It combines to make a perfect homage to the Frankenstien thing you seem to be going for. Even the ability loss (with a chance of no loss) is now within reason (and potential recuperation).

The only real comments I have are that you just need to say how long the Heal check takes and remove the reference to grafts as I suggested above. In fact, just make this an additional option when harvesting Graft points. Say that the harvesting always counts as a vivisection (reduces graft points even on an already dead creature) that can retain the creatures mind on a Heal check of etc., etc.

Also, this is a manifestation of Monster-Making Beast-Lord, let it use those rules (remove reference to grafts as I mentioned above), it's more consistent. As for cost, just make it all half the cost of a normal creature. You are still, essentially, adding new racial features so it shouldn't be as cheap as a graft, but not as costly as making a creature whole-cloth.

will make it work more along the same line as everything else when doing the changes.

See my first post for comments. They still stand, especially for the activation time. How do you see this ability being used at the game table, and on what targets? Right now it just seems like it would break down in actual play.

will make the previously suggested changes. as for the targets that it would be used on, I was intending it to be used on any sort of suitable creature the player wanted to acquire for grafitng and such, or for taking control of a creature in a dungeon crawl situation.

You have done some interesting work on this one but it does bring up some more questions both about what you have said and what you have not said. The main thing I have to ask is, what do you see this ability as being? Is it a boosted animal companion with some extra options? Is it a general companion/bodyguard/henchman replacement? Is it the chance to make a single creature with the class' signature ability that you don't have to worry about turning on you/DM dickery? Right now you seem to be sitting on the fence about what this can do and I think that the ability is suffering for it. You say that it is created like a creature (good) but then limit the types of creature it can be (no Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Magical Beast, Outsider, or Vermin, despite vermin being used in a later example). You allow selecting different creature types then say that the creature type has no effect on most of its characteristics (HD size, BAB, skills, saves, etc.). This seems... like a mistake.

i'll be making a number of clarifications with this ability. as for creature types, it does allow any type, its just that the ones shown in the table have an additional cost. as for the creature types not changing the characteristics that's intended to have the different creature types only offer the traits of their type, and to help balance the creature types.

If you are going to be straddling the line between Animal Companions and Henchmen (which, for the record, I think is a pretty brilliant idea) then you need to sharply define where it crosses from being one to being the other. That and bring it more in line with the rules for each.

Start with changing the base HD to Kreikiri levels -2 (as with henchmen) instead of equal to your level. This way it starts slightly worse than the equivalent animal companion (so not completely overshadowing another PCs class ability) but is infinitely more versatile. The HD catch up with Animal Companions at 11th and wind up being higher by 15th. This provides a nice pregression, not destroying the competition when you first get it bit staying relevent at higher levels. Say that HD size, BAB, saves, skill points, feats, and normal attribute increases (once every 4 HD) progress as per normal for their HD and creature type (adjusting alternate creature type costs to compensate) but that they gain Natural Armor Bonus, Str/Dex Bonus, Bonus Tricks (if of animal intelligence), and Special abilities as per the Animal Companion class ability of a Druid of the Kreikiri's level. Say that the companions Intelligence must be lowered to animal levels (1 or 2) using Decreased Potential (granting extra points as usual), is automatically considered to be unaging and so cannot select Cascade of Life (no breeding for you!).

i'm not sure what you mean by a henchman, do you mean something like a cohort?, Iv searched for a feat for something that references a henchmen but cant find one. as for the later changes you suggested i'll add them, with the specification of if the creature is INT 3 or more they are fully sapient.

[QUOTE=Quarian Rex;18936783]As an option (or even as an advanced manifestation), the Kreikiri could grant the Companion sapience. For the cost of 100 Graft points (maybe more, maybe less?) the Intelligence limit may be removed. Should this option be chosen the Kreikiri may convert one HD into a class level of chouce at the cost of 25 Graft points. This option may me chosen multiple times with the cost doubling for each additional HD converted (25 for the first, 50 for the second, 100 for the third, 200 fourth, etc). Any requirements for these class levels (in the case of PRC's and such) must be met by the creature before they can be selected. The costs for these two options (sapience and HD conversion) must be paid from the Kreikiri's Graft point reserve, not with the points provided by this mythos, representing the additional effort required to uplift his fleshy experiment.

now this here is interesting, i'll ad it in.

will also amend creature type costs.

The benefits of this seem somewhat bland. What if the graft capability of the Companion was standard +1 (a little under the Kreikiri himself) but this provided an extra 2+1/4 level grafts? Same resulting total but this is a little more attractive and not an automatic skip in favour of Re-genesis gambit.

will use this then

Ill do the remainder of your comment at a later date, probably after all the changes here are done.

[Quarian Rex]

as for your suggestion to limit the harvesting of certain creatures, iv added that, with the 'Organ tearing freakish overlord' mythos removing the limitation. seems an appropriate time considering what the manifestations could allow.

Nice. Good place to add it. Just make sure that it's a basic manifestation instead of part of the base ability. It forces more choices and seems like a comparable option to the other manefestations.

it seems that this ability has implications I did not realize, also I suppose the use of wands would work for getting spells, I personally always forget about them.

Me so happy.

as for the name, generally isn't unageing what immortality usually refers to in the game?

Kind of. Immortality isn't usually a term used outside of fluff. Since it implies immunity to mortality some think it includes immunity to death effects and death in general. If you say unageing there is no argument about whether Finger of Death will take effect. If you say immortality (without then stating concrete game mechanics as to exactly what you mean) then you open a can of worms. I have had these arguments at the game table. They are frustrating. I try to avoid them.

i'll be making a number of clarifications with this ability. as for creature types, it does allow any type, its just that the ones shown in the table have an additional cost. as for the creature types not changing the characteristics that's intended to have the different creature types only offer the traits of their type, and to help balance the creature types.

I understand where you're coming from as far as trying to balance the stats, but if you are going to be assigning costs based on creature type you might as well adjust the costs based on all of the types characteristics. The main thing here is having consistency across the class. You can already make creatures of all kinds of types (with the full stats of the creature type) as a basic ability of this class. Now, as a higher level ability, you can finally make a single creature that is completely loyal to you but there are wierd, unintuitive, limitations. Want to balance types with a full BAB? Increase the cost of that type. Want to balance types with three good saves? Increase the cost.

All these things can already be created. For the cost of a Fantastic Mythos you are allowing one of these creations to get a buff and have baked in loyalty. I think that's a fair trade. No need to stack on additional limitations.

i'm not sure what you mean by a henchman, do you mean something like a cohort?, Iv searched for a feat for something that references a henchmen but cant find one.

Yup, I meant exactly a Cohort. Not sure why I was saying henchmen so much. Sorry to confuse things.

Looking forward to seeing the changes.

[ThreadNecro5]

will now finish my reply, I have completed the changes I mention in prior posts. if I have missed any please point them out.

This is odd. In my previous recomendation I meant that the duration should be modified by the victims Wis modifier. That way the max-Wis Cleric will be able to come to terms with his new predicament relatively quickly but the low-Wis Renfield type will be gibbering like a madman for extra time.

You might want to change it to something like...

"... identical to a non-magical confusion spell that lasts for 2d6 rounds, to which you subtract a number of rounds duration up to the victims wisdom modifier (note that a negative wisdom modifier will result in a longer duration), and you may use the handle animal skill..."

used your wording. the original idea behind my wording is that if you wanted to you could lengthen the duration if you used the mythos to just, for example, grab a villager or guard or someone to that effect and use them as an expendable distraction.

I get that you want mindless minions to retain something of what they were but this is worded oddly. As is, it sounds like they lose their level feats but retain bonus feats (like from being a fighter) and retain all of their skill ranks. This seems off and problematic. A mindless creature should not retain all of its previous sage-like knowledge, and as for feats, what if it loses a prereq? How about changing it to something like...

fixed the wording.

This I see as problematic. With this line you can walk into a villiage, give everyone in town a 'makeover', and then leave them in gibbering chaos. Since you're not around they stop taking Int drain (indeed, they never even start) and when you swing back in a week ot a month you have an entire villiage full of minions. This just doesn't work, and actually goes against the spirit of the class since at 7th level you can now have perfect mind-control over your minions.

This line also steps all over the toes of Mental-lords’ unity. You have a good balance of having to carefully choose limited wording for limited instincts, leaving open all kinds of opportunities for roleplaying, creative interpretation, and shenanigans. That's even part of the basic balance of the class. You can make cool minions but it is really hard to make them into perfect mind-slaves. That one line throws all that right out the window. Please reconsider.

I forgot to specify that this only effects creatures whom you payed mythos points to have retain their intelligence.

Dropping it down so that each purchase of this feature provides only a single instinct seems like a good call. It forces the player to prioritize instructions and/or get creative with them.

by this to you mean limit the instinct to one/time you pay for instincts on creatures?

Boosting the DC for multiple implants of the same instinct? Great idea. The wording of the rest? We need to talk. You should probably treat this as a long-term Charm/Dominate hybrid. You want the control from a graft to be shakey but not all-or-nothing so having them make a save on implantation doesn't really work. The +5 bonus to save is a little nuts (you may have pulled this from the Charm Person spell, but that is only there if you're trying to convince someone that you're their friend after you've stabbed them). And you haven't clearly defined the effects of a successful save. Is the instinct now useless? Do they only have a temporary reprieve?

How about no initial save. They had to be rendered helpless for at least an hour to have the instinct graft implanted so lets just let it take effect. The saves should be against individual triggerings of the instinct, not to permanently nullify the entire graft feature. Mindless and animal level intelligence creatures will follow the instinct automatically, no save, but creatures of intelligence 3 or higher can, as a Standard Action, roll a Will save to temporarily resist the instinct.

Success means that they can act without regard to the instinct for a number of rounds (not counting the current round) equal to their Wisdom bonus (min. 1). Might have to think of better wording here. I think that it's important that the voluntary attempt to reject the instinct should cost an action but that on a success they should be able to take some actual action (ie, their next full action).

If they fail the Will save then they must follow the Instinct for the next minute without getting any further saves. This would allow a would-be mind-slave to have those moments of conscience ("Leave before I kill you, I can't stop myself for long...") with the gamble that failure results in complete submission to the instinct.

A subject forced to take actions against its nature (a parent about to kill its offspring, a Drow forced to protect an elf villiage) receives a saving throw with a +2 bonus (similar to the Dominate spells) without having to use an action. If this occurs within a minute of a previously failed Will save against the instinct then no save is allowed, as per above. Subjects are aware of this and can make choices accordingly.

This way a creature (or player) always has the option to resist but at the potential cost of being unable to resist should they really need to resist. I think this would be much more interesting when used in actual play allowing the DM some options with NPCs, and even the players should this be turned on them.

will make your suggested changes. what you are saying was what I originally wanted to do, but couldn't find a wording that I was satisfied with.

will also make the changes to the manifestations.

The language is cleaned up and it is now an extremely solid ability. Just...

... take this line out. It no longer has a purpose considering the changes you made to the previous wording.

will corect this.

Also, I can't remember if the features of the Mythos carying over after Reincarnation and such was there before but if not, that change is pure gold.

thats new wording, I realized that would be an important thing to be specific about as it is a one-time procedure, so it would be rather crippling if you could loose it.

edit:
also slightly altering how 'Ever-shifting protean-mastery' works to better work with how graft production works (Limb-shredding graft-taker has went through a few different variation since Ever-shifting protean-mastery was written). as you may have noticed it still references a roll to create grafts instead of to attach them. making it so that you immediately make a roll to attack the graft to yourself as an internalized graft with a +4 bonus, and if you fail you may not attempt to make another internalized graft for 24 hours.

[Quarian Rex]

Apologies for slow-posting. I've been getting distracted by shiny things in the real world but I do really want to see this class finished. To that end...

Great job so far. Everything is much more clear. I'll just go through a quick rundown of some of the changes made. This should be quick, most issues I found just seem to be spelling/copy-paste errors.

On that note, when you get some time you should do a Ctrl+f search for the letter 'k'. You seem to have a habit of hitting 'k' instead of 'h' when typing, leading to fun things like such->suck and attach->attack.

Spoiler

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Meat shearing butchers scalpel
Hunter’s claw

Should you somehow loose access to this natural attack (suck as through the limb being severed), the required parts to use it (including any limb it may be attacked to).

This sentence just needs to be finished.

Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker

Any creature may be given no more natural attacks from grafts than 2+ 1/3 of the level of the Kreikiri Appling the graft, increasing to 2/3 their HD at level 15 and the limit being removed at level 20.

Just a clarification here. Did you want the progression to go from 6 attacks at level 12 (2+1/3 per level) to 12 attacks at level 15 (2+2/3 per level) or to 10 attacks at level 15 (2/3 per level)? Whichever you decide, just put in an example of how many at 15 to remove any confusion.

A graft on a dead creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed on the creature’s death should the body be in a suitable state to be resurrected...

Just change resurrected to raised. Raising requires a mostly whole body, while resurrection only needs a toe. I think the raise option is more what you're going for here.

Also, just remove the bolded parts of this line...

Should a creature with grafts be resurrected, if the spell is capable of resurrecting a creature with a destroyed body, destroyed grafts are restored.

While True Resurrection is the spell that restores a destroyed body (disintegrate and such), even standard Resurrection can heal everything from only the smallest scrap of flesh. Clarify the difference between raising and resurrecting and the spells do the rest of the work for you.

Monster-Making Beast-Lord
Created creature

You do not control the actions of the Created creature, although nothing stops you from creating an initial personality that wants to serve you (see Mental-lords’ unity for more information).

Try adding the bolded part, or something like it. Current wording makes it sound like you can just make them subservient and loyal automatically which really shouldn't be the case.

Cascade of Life

For +50 points the created creature may gain the ability to reproduce with a specific type of creature (or specific subtype in the case of Humanoids and Outsiders) within one size category and of the same type. The offspring will always breed true, sharing the characteristics of the created creature.

Bolded parts are needed here as well. Humanoid and Outsider types are too broad to allow total access and so should be specified a bit (same as what is done with a Ranger's Favored Enemy). Also, this is a feature paying to expand the breeding options for your created creature, not to force the DM to figure out rules for half-breeds. The last part makes sure the DM knows where to stand on this.

Man-is-monster restoration

To do this you make a heal check on a dead or dying creature with a DC of 20 + 1 per point the targets hit points are below zero (dead targets add + 10 to the DC), +1 per day the creature is dead.

Need to clarify the DC here. Is the +10 to DC for being dead an additional modifier of just a reflection of the creature being at -10 Hp to achieve death? With the current wording the DCs cover a range that I don't think you intend.

For example, current language results in...
Harvesting someone stabilized at -3 Hp would be DC 23 (20 + 3 for negative Hp)
Harvesting someone recently dead from Hp damage would be DC 40 (20 + 10 for neg. Hp + 10 for being dead)
Harvesting someone dead for 2 days from a death effect (no Hp damage) would be DC 32 (20 + 10 for being dead + 2 for time)

Perhaps change the wording to something like...

"To do this you make a heal check on a dead or dying creature with a DC of 20 + 1 per point the targets hit points are below zero (up to a max. of + 10 to the DC, or if the target is dead), +1 per day the creature is dead. "

This would provide a non-Epic DC and cover any niche cases that would do weird things to the DC (like someone using Delay Death spell, or if the group was using Pathfinder up-to-minus-Con-score death and dying rules)

Beastmaster's Coiled Lash
Beast Mastering Hand

The creature becomes under your control and will attempt to follow your commands (as per a Dominate Animal spell) for a number of minutes equal to how much you exceeded the DC of the handle animal check (or only one round should you have rolled equal to the DC)

Add the bolded part. I think you had that in an earlier version but it seems to have gotten lost in a rewrite.

Paralytic Barb
Venom Squirt

• Or it may be fired directly as a ranged touch attack with a 10ft range increment.
In either case the target(s) hit by the venom have a percentage chance of being unaffected equal to 10+ double their armour bonus + their shield bonus. Additionally your venom now permanently becomes a contact poison.

This odd percentage miss chance is combersome. If you want that effect, just say that anyone wearing armour that covers their entire body (including face) gets concealment against the attack. Or, if you want armour to be effective against the attack just make it a ranged attack instead of a ranged touch attack.

Either option is far better than the DM having to break down the AC totals on every target.

Anatomy-twisting bestial-genesis

Great changes overall, though I'd just suggest reversing this...

This mythos grants you an animal companion, counting your Kreikiri level -2 as your druid level. Additionally instead of selecting a normal animal to use you instead create a creature for free with ‘Monster-making beast-lord’ that always has a number of hit dice equal to your Kreikiri level.

The abilities and bonuses for an Animal Conpanion are fine at counting your Kreikiri level as your druid level. The HD of the companion are the important part and the real balance point and should be at -2. Just a change to ...

"This mythos grants you an animal companion, counting your Kreikiri level as your druid level. Additionally instead of selecting a normal animal to use you instead create a creature for free with ‘Monster-making beast-lord’ that always has a number of hit dice equal to your Kreikiri level -2."

... would balance the power of the creature.

As for the creature type costs... looks good. The only thing I keep coming back to is the cost for Undead/Constructs. It seems a little high considering how bad most of their features are (Wizard BAB, crap saves, limited Hp, etc.) but even with that I would only recomend going down to 80, and even that I'm not sure about. This is one of those things that will need some playtesting. The key thing is that the Kreikiri can now afford to give an Undead/Construct minion a full set of limbs when he first picks up the mythos.

Power-stealing aberrant-liege

It's been a while since I took a look at this one and it has gotten me thinking. Specifically this...

Creatures that have been effected by an effect that empowers someone using a mythos are classed as having an amount of mythos points equal to 1/4th of the amount of mythos points it would cost to purchase the mythos used, unless some other points-based medium is used in the mythos, using the value of points used instead, e.g. a creature with a Kreikiri–granted graft counts as having an amount equal to the amount of points used to make the graft. Once all the equivalent amount of MP possessed by the target is drained by the effects of this mythos, the target becomes unable to benefit from the mythos they were effected by for 3d10 hours after which it again becomes useful. You may not gain mythos points with this mythos from a subject you caused to become an eligible target unless outside sources were involved, such as if you created a creature that later became a teramach or Kreikiri itself, without your involvement, e.g. you cannot use this on someone who is only eligible through a graft you gave them.

... the bolded parts in particular. I think you should remove that limitation. Now hear me out. If grafts can be drained, let them be drained regardless of where they are from. Trying to put these kinds of limitations on things only forces the players to pull some convoluted plan out of their butt (like doing all of their grafting through a proxy) that will get them those MP, and will annoy the DM. You might as well balance around this fact.

I realize your concern about an infinite river of Mythos Points but this is similar to Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry vs. the cutlery smashing Teramach. The return on investment here is going to be relatively small and with some minor adjustments it should be well within the realms of balance.

Just make it known that this is an assault upon the targets very being, that the Kreikiri is scraping off a piece of their essence, consuming it as they watch, and that it feels just like it sounds. State that continued use of this on someone (and it will have to be used continually on a target, considering the relatively small amount of MP siphoned per use) is equivalent to being tortured and will have a suitable effect on the targets disposition towards the Kreikiri. This way he can't enhance minions/henchmen/party members and then harvest MP without consequence.

The Mythos Points available should be adjusted a bit as well. Currently you can siphon 1/4 the MP value of an empowering ability and the full Graft Point cost of grafts and such. I would suggest a change to 1/5 value for each. This way Leach of legends allows the Kreikiri to essentially get full access to the potential power. Also, the ability to 'double-dip' needs to be addressed. Specify that the MP harvested from empowered creatures is finite and does not regenerate with time. Further, any grafts that have been fully drained should be incapable of being re-harvested, crumbling into useless dust should it be attempted. This way you have a one-way Graft Point -> Mythos Point conversion method of varying efficiency. A last thought on the base ability is that you should probably state that created creatures are not considered to be empowered for the purposes of this ability. The Graft Points used in their creation are now their racial abilities, no more empowering than stonecunning on a dwarf.

Legend-burnout ash harvester

An amount of HP equal to your Kreikiri level multiplied by five is the maximum amount of HP that the target may lose per use of this mythos. If this manifestation’s use results in the loss of hit points in the target, you may not use this mythos again, on any target, for 1d4 rounds.

I think you should remove these limitations. Both are kind of pointless due to how this mythos already works. Anything with saves so bad to let you inflict that much damage will be low HD enough to never get close to the limit. Anything with enough HP to make the limit useful will have good enough saves to limit the damage actually done (even after Leach of legends).

As for the 1d4 round wait period, not necessary. Under just about every combat situation using this ability is sub-optimal. It is a standard action (so no full attacks on a character who probably has a boat-load of natural attacks) with very limited damage potential (the only way to increase it is by boosting the DC, not an easy thing to do). Waiting between attacks is done to space out powerful abilities that can unbalance combat (like breath weapons). That does not apply to this ability, even after the heavy investment of Leach of legends. If the player wants to limit combat output for small long-term gains (remember, it takes thousands of MP to actually be useful) then that is a decision that I think they should be free to make.

Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry

Once a creature whom you spent mythos points on to leave with an intelligence score stops taking intelligence drain, it becomes zealously loyal to you, and its entire personality warps to consider what you did to it an improvement.

I didn't realize that you had limited it to creatures that you spent MP on but it doesn't change the reason it's bugging me. It's the perfect control aspect that is a game-breaker. And it's cheap perfect control. Walk up to a troll/giant/dragon/whatever, give it a scratch, attach a horn or something, and hang arount till it's stupid. Spend enough MP to have a useful Int (3 or higher to understand language) and you now have a perfectly controlled chassis for further augmentation. Rinse and repeat. No saves, no HD limits, just a growing army of perfect minions. This is the problem.

I see where you want this to go though, and I think you can do a better job with the mechanics you already have. How about once a creature whom you spent mythos points on to leave with an intelligence score stops taking intelligence drain, it is considered to be a created creature for the purpose of grafts containing instincts from the Mental-lords’ unity mythos added during the use of Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry. Specifiy that instances of Mental-lords’ unity mythos added during Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry do not count toward the maximum that can be applied to a created creature. This adds a beautiful risk vs reward dynamic, integrates your existing systems, and avoids the problem of perfect control. As an added kicker you can say that once Int drain has stopped (and been paid for etc.) the Kreikiri can still "Handle" or “Push” them using the Handle Animal skill regardless of current Int or creature type. When around the one who remade them a victim will always feel, and respond, as little more than a beast.

You should also address the mindless option. Currently there isn't too much reason to spend MP for low Int when you can just leave them mindless for free, following whatever instincts you managed to give them with Mental-lords’ unity. How about saying that any creature that gets to the mindless state due to this Mythos is overcome with the pain of its transformation and violently lashes out at anything animate around it, including the Kreikiri. This way you can have cages filled with kill-crazy death-beasts that can be sicked on ones foes, via Handle Animal, but are just as dangerous to their master if they do not have something else to chew on.

Ever-shifting protean-mastery

The more I think about it, the more I think that you need to get rid of the attachment roll for grafts in this Mythos. The limitations of the mythos, the limited number active at once and especially the Graft Point limits, are strong (yet interesting) enough to remove the need for any further limits. Consider the Graft Point limit. At 10 point/level this gives 70+ point grafts by the time this mythos can be chosen, resulting in DCs of 70+ (unachievable by anything within reason) for standard feature grafts, yet the point limit is far too low to allow any kind of magic item to be added.

Let these grafts, and only these grafts, be used to their full potential. Due to their limited number and high feature limit it will greatly encourage hyper-specialization of the grafts and therefore create interesting choices for the Kreikiri, rather than becoming the more general jack-of-all-trades that the external grafts would otherwise encourage.

As a balance point to the automatic attachment of these Grafts I suggest you change the combined creation/attachment time to something like 8 or 24 hrs so that the hyper-specialization requires some forethought.

I'll see if I can get a PEACH on the Excellency’s in the next few days and then on to the higher Mythos.

[ThreadNecro5]

Apologies for slow-posting. I've been getting distracted by shiny things in the real world but I do really want to see this class finished. To that end...

Great job so far. Everything is much more clear. I'll just go through a quick rundown of some of the changes made. This should be quick, most issues I found just seem to be spelling/copy-paste errors.

On that note, when you get some time you should do a Ctrl+f search for the letter 'k'. You seem to have a habit of hitting 'k' instead of 'h' when typing, leading to fun things like such->suck and attach->attack.

good to see your back, and yes hitting the wrong Keys tends to be a problem of mine, I usually relay on spell check to sort these things so stuff like that tends to leak through, I'l get to work on the errors.

This sentence just needs to be finished.

will fix this, must have gotten distracted.

Just a clarification here. Did you want the progression to go from 6 attacks at level 12 (2+1/3 per level) to 12 attacks at level 15 (2+2/3 per level) or to 10 attacks at level 15 (2/3 per level)? Whichever you decide, just put in an example of how many at 15 to remove any confusion.

whenever I try the math myself it always breaks down and I cant calculate it (I have one of those brains that just sort of turns of when math is involved). I think adding wording along the lines of 'recalculated with 2/3 their HD instead of 1/3 at level 15.' should sort out any confusion while preventing me form having to do any math that is likely to be incorrect and thus causing more confusion.

Just change resurrected to raised. Raising requires a mostly whole body, while resurrection only needs a toe. I think the raise option is more what you're going for here.

will fix this. my old gaming group's only resurrection was a reincarnate spell so these spells are not something I am familiar with terminology wise.

Also, just remove the bolded parts of this line...

While True Resurrection is the spell that restores a destroyed body (disintegrate and such), even standard Resurrection can heal everything from only the smallest scrap of flesh. Clarify the difference between raising and resurrecting and the spells do the rest of the work for you.

this was another manifestation of my lack of familiarity with resurrection spells. will fix this as well.

Try adding the bolded part, or something like it. Current wording makes it sound like you can just make them subservient and loyal automatically which really shouldn't be the case.

will correct this, its leftover wording from what the feature was based off. will remove this part.

Bolded parts are needed here as well. Humanoid and Outsider types are too broad to allow total access and so should be specified a bit (same as what is done with a Ranger's Favored Enemy). Also, this is a feature paying to expand the breeding options for your created creature, not to force the DM to figure out rules for half-breeds. The last part makes sure the DM knows where to stand on this.

will add this in. by type I originally meant that in the general usage, rather than mechanical, definition.

Need to clarify the DC here. Is the +10 to DC for being dead an additional modifier of just a reflection of the creature being at -10 Hp to achieve death? With the current wording the DCs cover a range that I don't think you intend.

For example, current language results in...
Harvesting someone stabilized at -3 Hp would be DC 23 (20 + 3 for negative Hp)
Harvesting someone recently dead from Hp damage would be DC 40 (20 + 10 for neg. Hp + 10 for being dead)
Harvesting someone dead for 2 days from a death effect (no Hp damage) would be DC 32 (20 + 10 for being dead + 2 for time)

Perhaps change the wording to something like...

"To do this you make a heal check on a dead or dying creature with a DC of 20 + 1 per point the targets hit points are below zero (up to a max. of + 10 to the DC, or if the target is dead), +1 per day the creature is dead. "

This would provide a non-Epic DC and cover any niche cases that would do weird things to the DC (like someone using Delay Death spell, or if the group was using Pathfinder up-to-minus-Con-score death and dying rules)

will do this.

Add the bolded part. I think you had that in an earlier version but it seems to have gotten lost in a rewrite.

I think I did, will re-add the wording.

This odd percentage miss chance is combersome. If you want that effect, just say that anyone wearing armour that covers their entire body (including face) gets concealment against the attack. Or, if you want armour to be effective against the attack just make it a ranged attack instead of a ranged touch attack.

Either option is far better than the DM having to break down the AC totals on every target.

will fix with the first sugstion.

Great changes overall, though I'd just suggest reversing this...

The abilities and bonuses for an Animal Conpanion are fine at counting your Kreikiri level as your druid level. The HD of the companion are the important part and the real balance point and should be at -2. Just a change to ...

"This mythos grants you an animal companion, counting your Kreikiri level as your druid level. Additionally instead of selecting a normal animal to use you instead create a creature for free with ‘Monster-making beast-lord’ that always has a number of hit dice equal to your Kreikiri level -2."

... would balance the power of the creature.

As for the creature type costs... looks good. The only thing I keep coming back to is the cost for Undead/Constructs. It seems a little high considering how bad most of their features are (Wizard BAB, crap saves, limited Hp, etc.) but even with that I would only recomend going down to 80, and even that I'm not sure about. This is one of those things that will need some playtesting. The key thing is that the Kreikiri can now afford to give an Undead/Construct minion a full set of limbs when he first picks up the mythos.

will adjsut the costs and add the HD reduction.

It's been a while since I took a look at this one and it has gotten me thinking. Specifically this...

... the bolded parts in particular. I think you should remove that limitation. Now hear me out. If grafts can be drained, let them be drained regardless of where they are from. Trying to put these kinds of limitations on things only forces the players to pull some convoluted plan out of their butt (like doing all of their grafting through a proxy) that will get them those MP, and will annoy the DM. You might as well balance around this fact.

I realize your concern about an infinite river of Mythos Points but this is similar to Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry vs. the cutlery smashing Teramach. The return on investment here is going to be relatively small and with some minor adjustments it should be well within the realms of balance.

Just make it known that this is an assault upon the targets very being, that the Kreikiri is scraping off a piece of their essence, consuming it as they watch, and that it feels just like it sounds. State that continued use of this on someone (and it will have to be used continually on a target, considering the relatively small amount of MP siphoned per use) is equivalent to being tortured and will have a suitable effect on the targets disposition towards the Kreikiri. This way he can't enhance minions/henchmen/party members and then harvest MP without consequence.

The Mythos Points available should be adjusted a bit as well. Currently you can siphon 1/4 the MP value of an empowering ability and the full Graft Point cost of grafts and such. I would suggest a change to 1/5 value for each. This way Leach of legends allows the Kreikiri to essentially get full access to the potential power. Also, the ability to 'double-dip' needs to be addressed. Specify that the MP harvested from empowered creatures is finite and does not regenerate with time. Further, any grafts that have been fully drained should be incapable of being re-harvested, crumbling into useless dust should it be attempted. This way you have a one-way Graft Point -> Mythos Point conversion method of varying efficiency. A last thought on the base ability is that you should probably state that created creatures are not considered to be empowered for the purposes of this ability. The Graft Points used in their creation are now their racial abilities, no more empowering than stonecunning on a dwarf.

will add in your thoughts

Legend-burnout ash harvester

I think you should remove these limitations. Both are kind of pointless due to how this mythos already works. Anything with saves so bad to let you inflict that much damage will be low HD enough to never get close to the limit. Anything with enough HP to make the limit useful will have good enough saves to limit the damage actually done (even after Leach of legends).

As for the 1d4 round wait period, not necessary. Under just about every combat situation using this ability is sub-optimal. It is a standard action (so no full attacks on a character who probably has a boat-load of natural attacks) with very limited damage potential (the only way to increase it is by boosting the DC, not an easy thing to do). Waiting between attacks is done to space out powerful abilities that can unbalance combat (like breath weapons). That does not apply to this ability, even after the heavy investment of Leach of legends. If the player wants to limit combat output for small long-term gains (remember, it takes thousands of MP to actually be useful) then that is a decision that I think they should be free to make.

will remove the limitations then.

I didn't realize that you had limited it to creatures that you spent MP on but it doesn't change the reason it's bugging me. It's the perfect control aspect that is a game-breaker. And it's cheap perfect control. Walk up to a troll/giant/dragon/whatever, give it a scratch, attach a horn or something, and hang arount till it's stupid. Spend enough MP to have a useful Int (3 or higher to understand language) and you now have a perfectly controlled chassis for further augmentation. Rinse and repeat. No saves, no HD limits, just a growing army of perfect minions. This is the problem.

I see where you want this to go though, and I think you can do a better job with the mechanics you already have. How about once a creature whom you spent mythos points on to leave with an intelligence score stops taking intelligence drain, it is considered to be a created creature for the purpose of grafts containing instincts from the Mental-lords’ unity mythos added during the use of Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry. Specifiy that instances of Mental-lords’ unity mythos added during Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry do not count toward the maximum that can be applied to a created creature. This adds a beautiful risk vs reward dynamic, integrates your existing systems, and avoids the problem of perfect control. As an added kicker you can say that once Int drain has stopped (and been paid for etc.) the Kreikiri can still "Handle" or “Push” them using the Handle Animal skill regardless of current Int or creature type. When around the one who remade them a victim will always feel, and respond, as little more than a beast.

You should also address the mindless option. Currently there isn't too much reason to spend MP for low Int when you can just leave them mindless for free, following whatever instincts you managed to give them with Mental-lords’ unity. How about saying that any creature that gets to the mindless state due to this Mythos is overcome with the pain of its transformation and violently lashes out at anything animate around it, including the Kreikiri. This way you can have cages filled with kill-crazy death-beasts that can be sicked on ones foes, via Handle Animal, but are just as dangerous to their master if they do not have something else to chew on.

I like your ideas here, still on the fence of the final paragraph's suggestions.

The more I think about it, the more I think that you need to get rid of the attachment roll for grafts in this Mythos. The limitations of the mythos, the limited number active at once and especially the Graft Point limits, are strong (yet interesting) enough to remove the need for any further limits. Consider the Graft Point limit. At 10 point/level this gives 70+ point grafts by the time this mythos can be chosen, resulting in DCs of 70+ (unachievable by anything within reason) for standard feature grafts, yet the point limit is far too low to allow any kind of magic item to be added.

Let these grafts, and only these grafts, be used to their full potential. Due to their limited number and high feature limit it will greatly encourage hyper-specialization of the grafts and therefore create interesting choices for the Kreikiri, rather than becoming the more general jack-of-all-trades that the external grafts would otherwise encourage.

As a balance point to the automatic attachment of these Grafts I suggest you change the combined creation/attachment time to something like 8 or 24 hrs so that the hyper-specialization requires some forethought.

will do this.

as a final thing to ad, iv also changed 'Flesh-altering monstrosity masterpiece' I wound up posting an older version of they mythos and accidentally deleted the correct version, which is slightly different and fixes a few pathfinder/3.5 rule mix-ups that worked their way in.

and thanks again for the continuation of your PEACH.

[Yasahiro]

Here is what I wonder about.

• The creature possess a larval stage that it stays in for at least half of its childhood, designed by you as a creature with a number of graft points spend on it equal to half of what the creature itself cost + however many additional points you wish to spend (at the time of selecting this option). For at least the last 10% of the creatures’ childhood it is in some form of a developmental stage such as a pupa or growing limbs for its adult form, you determine any limitations of this development form e.g. immobile. This costs 4 points

Why is this a cost? It sounds more like a thing that makes the creature's offspring weaker, thus it should be reduction of the cost, methinks

[Necroticplague]

Here is what I wonder about.



Why is this a cost? It sounds more like a thing that makes the creature's offspring weaker, thus it should be reduction of the cost, methinks

There isn't a requirement for the adult and child forms to have the same grafts, so there's an increase in versatility from having different uses an adult and child. So you might have children that are practically invisible being scouts for their considerably more magical adults.

[Yasahiro]

That makes sense.

Another question. Assume a player wants to play as Keikiri created creature. What is their LA? Can they replace one HD with HD of class level as some can? How do you determine the CR?

[Quarian Rex]

On to the Excellencies.

Spoiler

Show

Resculpting the flesh

This is all kinds of interesting. Love what it does and the options for taking it multiple times. Only two things need to be done. First, replace 'took' with 'taken' in the first two sentences of the third paragraph. Second, state whether racial stat penalties are considered to be racial weakneses. I think that you should probably let them be removed, either with the initial purchase or with taking it a second time. Whatever you decide, just spell it out.

As an afterthought, how about adding some synergy with Man-is-monster restoration? Perhaps if the Kreikiri has this Excellency when harvesting a creature with Man-is-monster restoration he has the option to remove/retain any racial traits that survive/are lost the initial purge with an appropriate Heal check. Remaking a Drow or Orc? Make sure that that pesky light-blindness doesn't make it to the New-Flesh (we can make him better, we have the technology...). Trying to re-engineer some Trolls into appropriate bodyguards? Better keep that Regeneration or you might as well scrap this one. Maybe a DC 15 + HD of the harvested creature for each ability to be retained and DC 10 + HD for each trait removed? Just some thoughts. Tell me what you think.

Legend-hungering (titan)-devourer

This is interesting and I like what it does but I think that the prerequisite is off. This is really an extension of Power-stealing aberrant-liege and should be treated as such. Also, the benefits of this Excellency are nice, though limited, enough that it does not have to be delayed to Legendary level. This does grant a bonus feat, but one that does little other than unlock more low-level options (most racial mythos are Exceptional or Fantastic) that have to be paid for seperately. Just change it to...

'Perquisite: Power-stealing aberrant-liege with either Legend-burnout ash harvester or Feast of mortal flesh Advanced manifestations.'

Specify the Advanced manifestation requirements to avoid someone legally purchasing this and being unable to use it.

Adapted (ability) evolution

Only thing I'd do here is add Wisdom to the mix. Tis standard to be able to upgrade the Mythos modifing ability score and its lack here is quite noticable.

Magic-manipulating fleshcrafting

The small bonus and extremely niche application make this very underwhelming. What if you gave a -2 to DC for all Graft/Creature-making rolls? Maybe change the name to Fleshcrafting Prodigy or something? Nothing show stopping but now it has enough general utility to actually be appealing.

As an afterthought, if you agree with me about changing this to Fleshcrafting Prodigy or somesuch, how about add an option that if this ability is taken by a Kreikiri who does not have Limb-shredding graft-taker (gasp!) then they gain the ability to harvest Graft Points as if they did. I know it's a bit a niche thing but I think it could be quite useful. Granting minions a level of Kreikiri to gather resources but lacking the ability to challenge their master seems to be a good option to provide a future Flesh Emperor.

All-knowing master of beasts

Interesting, useful, I quite like.

Conversion chambers

You have no idea how much I like this ability. With this single Excellency you usher in an industrial revolution of gooey war-beasts. You ensure that long after the Flesh Emperor is defeated/deposed/consumed the Flesh Empire will continue. That said, the wording needs a bit of a clean-up.

You need to change the prereq to Monster-Making Beast-Lord. The Kreikiri should know how to make creatures before he creates such a specialist creature. When giving the stats, just spell it out. Going through the long division of what features you were thinking about when stating up the chamber is an excercise in aggravation. For instance, the default Mouth feature provides a bite attack one size smaller than the creature it is on (small in this case, doing 1d4 damage) but the Chambers' does damage as a creature one size even smaller (tiny, doing 1d3) and has grab and swallow whole (again, on a tiny mouth). You then say that the Chamber is considered to be one size larger for the purposes of swallow whole (which normally allows swallowing of creatures one size smaller) without saying whether that is applied to the chamber itself or the mouth (a DM could easily, and reasonably, assume that medium creatures cannot fit through a tiny mouth). In the end, you have the player/DM scrambling through multiple books and homebrew to find info that should be presented in the stat block. And at the end of that search, the most logical interpretation of your wording is that the default Conversion Chambers can affect nothing larger than cats (not what I think you were going for).

Have something like...

'At the cost of 100 graft points as per the ‘Monster-Making Beast-Lord’ mythos you may produce a ‘Conversion Chamber’, this is a structure that uses the statistics of a 4 HD medium sized aberration with no movement ability, a 10 in all physical stats, a 1 in charisma and wisdom, and the mindless special quality. The Chamber has a single bite attack dealing 1d4 nonlethal damage with the grab and swallow whole (d6 nonlethal untyped damage, unable to inflict any lethal damage, and stomach HP is equal to half the chambers) abilities and with a +15 Racial bonus to grappling. Additionally the creature has the powerful build special ability, grappling as a large creature and allowing its swallow whole ability to affect medium sized creatures.'

This is just a slight rewording of what you had but there is no longer any confusion about what can and cannot be done.

... or have an identical copy of the graft attached to them, should a sufficient number of graft points be available within the chamber to produce it. More Graft Points may be added to the Chamber by the Kreikiri (or anyone else) at any time to allow further graft production.

Add the bolded part or something like it. You need to state that this puppy can be refueled (not just imply it), and done so by the Kreikiri, his minnions, or others. Hmm, just thought of something. How about if a living creature is swallowed whole, but there's not enough Graft Points for the required graft, the Chamber will then vivisect an eligible creature as if it were a 1st level Kreikiri to aquire the needed Graft reserve. The limitation of living targets would parallel the initial limits on a starting Kreikiri, and the vivisection ensures both that a PCs first encounter with a hungry Chamber is not a fatal one, and to make sure that the Chamber is a somewhat inefficient source of Graft Points (corpses are easier to manage and provide more GP). Perhaps allow a DC 15 Knowledge (Dungeoneering) roll (because Aberration) to tell if the Chamber is 'hungry' or not.

This would provide all kinds of gaming goodness on both sides of the table. Not only having logistical options for the rising Flesh Emperor, but also for the sucessors of a once great Empire. Can you imagine dozens, if not hundreds, of living sacrifices to the ancient Conversion Chambers (perhaps under the guise of a rite of passage?) to empower a single Priest-King or proven warrior?

This is the kind of thing that I love about this class. Not only does it make a fascinating PC, but every second ability inspires a new bloody campaign.

Back to the crunch. The 24 hr implant time is equivalent to a Kreikiri taking 20 so that is fine, and the Fort save is an interesting balance point to a manual implantation. Nice job.

Should you possess ‘Mental-lords’ unity’ mythos you may place a single instinct within the chamber upon creation. Should you do so, the target gets an additional will save at a -4 penalty to not be afflicted with the instinct you selected. The target makes this second save after determining whether they got the graft. If they do not obtain the graft they do not need to make this save and do not gain the instinct.

Just remove this entirely. It no longer applies since the re-write of Mental-lords’ unity. If the Kreikiri wants to affect a target with Mental-lords’ unity then he can just add the feature to the graft. No need to complicate things.

For an additional 100 points the chamber may be huge sized (and swallowing up to huge sized targets)...

Add the bolded part for clarity. Also, any reason why you skipped large?

You may convert a stomach feature on a creature or graft that you create into a chamber for +50% cost for the chamber. In such a case the creature must be at least one size larger than the chamber and the chamber may not be targeted separately from the creature.

The bolded part makes absolutely none of the sense. The Stomach feature creates an extradimensional space that has no relation whatsoever to the size of the host creature. I think I see where you're going here but this needs some heavy rewording. Maybe something like...

'You may add the abilities of a Conversion Chamber to a stomach feature on a creature or graft that you create for +50% of the total cost of the chamber, Increasing the implantation DC by +10 as if it were a magic item. The Stomach feature must be large enough to contain a creature of the Chambers size and the size of the Mouth attached to this Stomach limits the size of creature that can access the Chamber (ie. the basic Stomach feature can fit a huge Conversion Chamber, accomodating up to 16 medium creatures so long as it was attached to a large mouth feature, or a small mouth if equipped with the Entryway augment to allow access for medium creatures). The Conversion Chamber/Stomach uses the hosts HP and abilities as per a normal graft (rather than the 4 HD of a standard Conversion Chamber) with the limitation that the +15 Racial bonus to grapple only applies within the affected Stomach.'

This is a little more wordy but it spells everything out and gives a concrete example, which I think is necessary. Considering the sheer cost of the chamber it should be treated like a magic item for graft DC purposes.

Building a better beast

Everything is good about this. The bonuses, the progression, the jump in utility. All good.

Fresh meat

Solid ability. A small bonus that will be used continually, leading to a larger impact.

No escape for the hunted

One of those abilities that looks out of place till you remember that the Kyniteros was a hunter before it was fractured. A good ability that ties the fluff together nicely while providing a unique capability. Good work.

Tongue of the savage

Another suprisingly useful ability that seems to further imply that the Kreikiri might be the Druids disgusting, bastard, step-brother or something. That amuses me greatly.

Structure shifting alterations

This is a great ability, the reason I wanted Disguise as a class skill, and on the short list of Excellencies to get early for any Kreikiri.

Unbound by tales of others

This is a fascinating and unique example of the Kreikiri's ability to transcend the limits of others. Though it is tied heavily to Eternal-legends-defeated supremacy returned and I'll probably come back to this when I discuss that Mythos in another post.

Weakness-sheering revivification

See above. Will get back to this.

Abominable Sewn-Flesh Displacement

This is both cool and useless at the same time. The base Limb-shredding graft-taker already lets you replicate any magic item with a graft. Not by making a magic item, but by making a graft that does the exact same thing. Right now, all this ability does is provide the ability to spend gold or Mythos points (not needed) to create a niche item (magic item grafts) apparently using a system that the Kreikiri doesn't usually have access to (standard magic item creation), all without benefiting from any other class abilities (any enhancements he has for grafting).

If you want something like this to work you need to incorporate it into the existing graft system. Perhaps say that you select one type of magical graft normally acessible through the Graft Flesh feat (Fiendish, Undead, Abloeth, etc.) without regard to racial prerequisites. When making grafts through Limb-shredding graft-taker that duplicate a selected magical graft (including any limitations, if any) then the Graft Point cost of this magic item component is halved. This is cumulative with any other enhancements/atlerations to the Kreikiri's graft making capabilities (such as Eldritch Living-Weapon).

This can help balance the overpriced nature of magical grafts, provide what you seem to be going for, and avoids introducing a new system (magic item creation) that is already covered by grafts.

Masterful body control

This is an ok ability, just seems a little weak. Maybe boost the save bonus to +3 or +4. This is a niche ability that will not apply all that often. Let it have an impact when it does.

Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration

This is another ability that has some extremely complex implications and so is in desperate need of some clarification/elaboration.

You have a four stage system to turn grafts into inherited traits. It's relatively simple (which is good) and easy to resolve on paper. Due to the way it is presented though, it will become a bookkeeping nightmare in actual play. Why? Because players, that's why. No one will wait till F4 before re-augmentation. As soon as they reach F1 any grafts that did not carry forward will be reattached and/or rebred with a more complete specimen (there is no incest when it comes to hermaphroditic, force-grown, tentacled, warbeasts). By the time F4 is achieved for all the desired grafts you will have to set up a genealogy website to track all of the seperate F-strains.

Keep the mechanics, just simplify the application. Instead of having the F1-4 classifications apply to the breeding generations, have them apply to the individual grafts themselves. Tracking the changes becomes so much easier. And try changing the F- designations to something more flavourful/meaningful. How about something like Retained->Tumorous->Inherited->Natural. Something like that will provide a clear mental picture of the progress and so is much easier to keep track of. Wording on something like this can be a bitch, so let me see if I can suggest something...

Spoiler

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'A Kreikiri can now allow the gifts of his craft to spread through the generations. When creating a graft the Kreikiri may add an free augmentation to make it a Legacy graft. When a creature to which you have attached a Legacy graft (including grafts from the graft flesh feat should you possess it) reproduces, its offspring each have a 50% chance of possessing an identical copy of the graft(s) of that parent (roll individually for each graft, and for both parents should both have grafts) that loses the Legacy augment and gains an augment called Retained. For each Retained graft the offspring receive a further d4 is rolled to determine when the grafts effects become available (1- from birth, 2-a week to a year after birth, 3- early-mid childhood, 4-upon puberty). Grafts available from birth can cause potential problems for the mother should her race produce live young. A Retained graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Retained augment and gaining Legacy) and attached to another creature as per normal.

Should a creature bearing a Retained graft then continue on to reproduce, each of their offspring in turn have a 50% chance of inheriting the parents Retained graft, and gain access to them at the same time as the parent (i.e they share the equivalent result from the d4 roll). Grafts inherited in this way lose the Retained augment and gain the Tumorous augment. A Tumorous graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Tumorous augment without a replacement augment) and attached to another creature as per normal. After having bonded to this degree with it`s host the graft is no longer capable of breeding through with another, or restarting the process should it be reattached.

Should the host of a Tumorous graft reproduce their children behave as above but have a 75% chance of inheriting Tumorous grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts should she herself possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Tumorous augment and gain the Inherited augment. An Inherited graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft, but cannot be attached to another creature. They can then be reconverted to Graft Points if the Kreikiri is capable of doing so (with the Meat Reprocessing manifestation for example) but are otherwise useless after being torn from their host.

If an Inherited graft is passed on to one more generation the offspring have a 100% chance of gaining the Inherited grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts even if she herself does not possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Inherited augment and gain the Natural augment. A Natural graft does not count against the graft limit and cannot be removed as a normal graft. The abilities of a Natural graft are now considered to be racial traits in all respects and no longer counts as a graft in any real way (ie. it can no longer be siphoned for Mythos Points by Power-stealing aberrant-liege and similar) and will always breed true in any further offspring. The host of a Natural graft is essentially the progenitor of a new strain of his former race.

A creature can have multiple grafts all at different levels of integration and each graft is tracked seperately.'

Spoilered because it's long. That covers just about every potential conflict that I can think of and still follows the basis of your original system. Let me know what you think.

Modified gestation

Fascinating ability but in desperate need of some clarification and elaboration.

The time reproduction takes for the young to be born/hatch/whatever is unaltered. Once this time has occurred the young are born and develop as a normal infant of their race (besides possible grafts)

This has to be clarified and should be placed before listing options for change. The base rules for gestation need to be clearly stated before you start saying how they will be modified. Also, you seem to be using reproduction and gestation interchangably. Do not do this thing. In almost all cases you are refering to the gestation period of the young, nothing else. Use gestation exclusively. It avoids all confusion. This is the kind of ability where you want to remove all ambiguity. To that end try something like...

'The time gestation takes for the young to be born/hatched/whatever is standard for the mothers race. Once this time has occurred the young are born and develop as a normal infant of their race (besides possible alterations due to Modified development, see below). Should gestation periods for a creature not be known, assume 9 months for a medium sized creature. Double this time for each size above medium, and halve it for each size below. For game purposes, assume that the mother cannot become pregnant again for a period of half the gestation time after birth.'

Now you have a baseline to modify, a baseline that covers unknowns as well. The change in gestation time based on size seems to hold up pretty well for the smaller things (cats, a tiny creature, have an actual gestation time of @63 days, which is pretty bang on), but tends to get long for the bigger stuff. Consider it a balance point if you want to breed dragons.

Live young

This is good as the default. Might want to add that this can be used to make alterations to the hosts natural reproduction process, making them marsupials, or tri-sexual parasitic breeding diads (don't look at me like that, you're the one who started this). The means could be whatever, so long as the end result is a live birth.

Laying eggs

This is one that needs some serious elaboration. How strong is the egg? This is something that will come up. How about 5 Hp and Hardness 2? Half Hp (round up) for each size below medium and double Hp for each size larger. An egg needs to be kept in a safe place and at a constant temperature to mature properly, thus limiting mobility. A trade-off is that egg-layers usually produce a large number of eggs at a time (chickens can squeeze one out a day, crocodiles usually drop 40-60 during mating season...) to ensure survival of the young. While that would be logistically insane to allow in the hands of a PC, how about saying that egg-layers require half normal recovery time before another egg can be laid (so 1/4 normal gestation time) and that recovery begins at the moment of laying, not hatching. This way the penalties of immobility and vulnerability are countered with much more rapid production.

Mitosis

This requires so much more info. This is not just making a clone of yourself (that's just asexual reproduction really) but instead making an individual into a multiple. Also, there would really be no 'parent', just more (and maybe smaller?) of them. Do all of the copies share the same memories/experience/levels up to the point of Mitosis? I think that they probably should. Does a PC get to control them all if they came from him? Nope. Pick one and the rest diverge. This is where any backstabbing/antisocial tndencies shown by the PC will come back to bite him.

Since instant maturation is a paid option under Modified development then default mitosis should probably split into children. Children with the memories/experience of adults. The act of reproduction would simultaneously be an act of rejuvenation. That is interesting.

This could also lead to a form of serialized immortality. Imagine a kingdom watching their Emperor/priest caste/royalty/what-have-you enter the Temple once a generation to ritually battle their dark half/sins/guilt to regain their youth, little knowing that it is a death duel between complete equals as only one is allowed to leave (getting flashbacks to Hugh Jackman in The Prestige here as well).

A balance here might be that recovery until another bout of mitosis can be initiated will take triple normal gestation time (possibly longer if the copies need to reach adulthood first). Another consideration is that the mitosis option will probably need the greatest investment in Modified development to be functionally useful in an actual game. Either way, this needs much more consideration than it has currently recieved. Let me know what you think.

• The creature may be made to reproduce asexually for 15 graft points (unless it reproduces using mitosis the creature must be biologically female). Such creatures may reproduce whenever they chose, either a minimum wait time of twice the gestation period.

Replace the bolded part with something like...

'Such creatures may reproduce whenever they chose, subject to the gestation and recovery times of their method.'

The asexual portion already has a graft cost. The gameplay value of the feature is negligible (telling a creature to breed with a mate, or to initiate asexual reproduction are functionally identical) and so should not have any penalties to recovery time.

• The time needed to reproduce may be lengthened; this reduces the cost of applying this quality by -1 for every additional month added (shorter increases may be added but grant no discount) and does not stack with reducing the time needed for gestation. Any excess reduction may be spending towards the modified development quality.

This just needs to be expanded in some logical ways and have the stacking penalty removed. There is no benefit to both extending and reducing gestation time at once, so if a player wants to extend gestation 3 weeks at the cost of 9 Graft points, let them. How about something like...

'• The time needed to gestate may be lengthened; this reduces the cost of applying this quality by -1 for every additional month added (shorter increases may be added but provide no points), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the penalty may be doubled (to 2 months) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any excess reduction may be spent towards the modified development quality.'

Similarly for the next one...

'• The time needed to reproduce may be reduced; this increases the cost of applying this quality by +10 for every week you reduce it by (smaller reductions may be added but grant no discount to the cost), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the benefit may be doubled (to 2 weeks) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum gestation/recovery time of 1 day).'

This is just a minor extension of your original balance but provides many more options.

Modified development

The costs and options for playing with the age categories seem good. Though this...

These alterations may never reduce an age category to shorter than five years for a creature of intelligence three or higher.

Should be removed and incorporated into the previous options. You already have an option for instant maturation so there really is no reason to have a minimum maturation time. Just make sure that below a certain point it has a cost. To that end...

'Reducing the lifespan reduces the cost of this quality by -5 for every two years you remove, which may be from any age category, including their childhood (the time anywhere below their races adulthood). Smaller reductions may be made but do not provide any Graft points. For a creature of intelligence three or higher these reductions may never shorten their childhood to shorter than five years.

Altering their age categories costs five points for every year altered, which may be removed from one age category and added to any other. Any alterations that would result in a creature of intelligence three or higher reducing their childhood to shorter than five years have their cost doubled.

Any reduction below one year would then become an appropriate reduction measured in months. Any reduction below one month would then become an appropriate reduction measured in weeks. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum of 1 day). '

That should cover everything. Let me know what you think.

• The creature may stop ageing upon reaching adulthood for 25 points.

Just specify that the creature no longer accrues bonuses for aging either. It is implied, just spell it out so there is no confusion.

The option for insta-growth seems to be exactly where it needs to be. Clear, concise, and the cost seems about right.

• The creature possesses a larval stage...

Bloody hell, is this ever a great ability. Remember what I said about every second ability making me spew out a new campaign world? This is definitely one of those. So many possibilities that it makes me twitchy. With a little creativity you could make a creature that approaches the reproductive weirdness of a Xenomorph from Alien. I don't care who you are, that spells fun.

The only recomendation I have is to open up the options a little bit. Perhaps for double the cost (8 Graft points) you could have a seperate larval form apply to another age category, following the same restrictions as above. This would allow things like the Neogi (becoming grotesque breeders in old age) and other such fun.

whenever I try the math myself it always breaks down and I cant calculate it (I have one of those brains that just sort of turns of when math is involved). I think adding wording along the lines of 'recalculated with 2/3 their HD instead of 1/3 at level 15.' should sort out any confusion while preventing me form having to do any math that is likely to be incorrect and thus causing more confusion.

Just make sure that you add the example at level 15. Either 12 attacks at level 15 (2+2/3 per level) or 10 attacks at level 15 (2/3 per level). Going with 10 attacks using just 2/3 levels is probably a bit more balanced, but in that case you really need to add the example because it may not be obvious that the change in math was intended. When seeing you go from X + [A Fraction] to just [Some Other Fraction] there can be confusion as to whether the missing 'X +' was a typo or not. The example removes all of that confusion.

I like your ideas here, still on the fence of the final paragraph's suggestions.

As far as the mindless death-beast ideas, think of it as a safeguard against abuse. Int drain only occurs when they are kept as minions (essentially) so if this were used to quickly graft the Royal Kingsguard or somesuch (where the resulting minions belong to another) then this is just a particularly brutal form of quick augmentation. The Kingsguuard can be used to arrest the Kreikiri at a later date or whatever. This sort of thing is not a problem.

The problem occurs when the Kreikiri gains access to a large number of bodies (given temporary control of a section of the King's army, finds a secluded villiage, left in charge of POWs after a large battle, etc.). While maintaining a creatures' inteligence at the cost of 150 Mythos points per point does not sound like a lot (and indeed it isn't) it is a limiter on what can be controlled.

Think about getting ahold of just 500 soldiers. Even just by hiring mercenaries this is quite achievable. Insuring loyalty through Mental-lords’ unity and maintaining Intelligence 3 so they can be directed with language would cost 225,000 Mythos points. That's a harsh sum. Want to economize? Specifically directing their actions with Mental-lords’ unity (added either with Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry or with later grafts) would allow a minimum intelligence of 1 to be sufficient for most purposes and that would cost 75,000 Mythos points. Still a large amount but might be worth it in some circumstances. Now, what is the difference between Int 1 and a docile Int '-' mindless creature? Behaviour-wise the mindless one would be easier to control, wouldn't wander around, and wouldn't get distracted. Ability-wise the mindless trait also provides immunity to all mind-affecting effects. These are some pretty large advantages over Int 1. How much do these advantages cost? Nothing. The cost of doing this to 500 mercenaries? Nothing. 1,000? Nothing. 10,000? Nothing.

A Kreikiri can convert 5,000+ creatures in a 10 hour period (and that's giving generous lunch/stretching breaks) using Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry. It would take about a week to lobotomize an average person (faster for less intelligent subjects or if the Kreikiri was also using another form of Int drain to accelerate the process) then you have instinct driven flesh-bots. Docile mindlessness results in cheap, nigh-infinite minion control. This is all of the bad.

If, on the other hand, mindlessness results in murder-fueled-hate-machines who attack any animate object that isn't a product of Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry, unless following some very specific instincts or directly being handled/pushed by their 'master', then things become much more interesting. Can they be used as a disciplined army? Nope, they'll break ranks and attempt to murderize anything that moves. Can they be an occupying force? Nope, they'll turn on the population as soon as you look away. Can they take watch while you sleep? Nope, as soon as someone has an eye-twitch from REM sleep they get a face full of death-beast. Are they useless? Nope. Being pursued by an army because you are a walking abomination? Move fast, get a few days lead on them and find yourself a villiage. Start the conversion/lobotomy process. By the time the army gets there you can open the holding pit and release your horde of Reavers (ala Firefly) and/or Necromorphs with a Push to 'get Them!'. Chaos/anihilation ensues. Escape/vengence is assured. Surviving Reavers/Necromorphs are now a plague upon the country-side, perhaps even being a threat to their creator at some inconvenient later date. Such fun!

You still get to horribly disrupt the game to get out of desperate situations but now the DM has interesting story hooks and beasties to use against you, instead of an instant player controlled army that he has to figure out how to counter.

From a gameplay perspective the Mindless-Murder-Beast of interesting consequence option has far more advantages over the Mindless-Docile-Minion of cheap freeness.

Just my attempt to push you off that fence. Thoughts?

iv also changed 'Flesh-altering monstrosity masterpiece'...

Cool. It's been a while since I looked at the ability so I'll essentially be coming at it fresh anyway. The Legendary and Exalted Mythos are next on my list.

[ThreadNecro5]

On to the Excellencies.

This is all kinds of interesting. Love what it does and the options for taking it multiple times. Only two things need to be done. First, replace 'took' with 'taken' in the first two sentences of the third paragraph. Second, state whether racial stat penalties are considered to be racial weakneses. I think that you should probably let them be removed, either with the initial purchase or with taking it a second time. Whatever you decide, just spell it out.

not sure weather to class racial statistic penalties as a weakness, I'll have a look at some creatures with level adjustment before I make a choice here (as a lot of the monsters have more penalties than average in some scores the potentially significant increase they may receive may be unbalancing, at least to do so all at once. as an idea what to you think about each purchase of the Excellency allow one -2 of racial penalties to be removed.

As an afterthought, how about adding some synergy with Man-is-monster restoration? Perhaps if the Kreikiri has this Excellency when harvesting a creature with Man-is-monster restoration he has the option to remove/retain any racial traits that survive/are lost the initial purge with an appropriate Heal check. Remaking a Drow or Orc? Make sure that that pesky light-blindness doesn't make it to the New-Flesh (we can make him better, we have the technology...). Trying to re-engineer some Trolls into appropriate bodyguards? Better keep that Regeneration or you might as well scrap this one. Maybe a DC 15 + HD of the harvested creature for each ability to be retained and DC 10 + HD for each trait removed? Just some thoughts. Tell me what you think.

I like the synergy idea.

This is interesting and I like what it does but I think that the prerequisite is off. This is really an extension of Power-stealing aberrant-liege and should be treated as such. Also, the benefits of this Excellency are nice, though limited, enough that it does not have to be delayed to Legendary level. This does grant a bonus feat, but one that does little other than unlock more low-level options (most racial mythos are Exceptional or Fantastic) that have to be paid for seperately. Just change it to...

'Perquisite: Power-stealing aberrant-liege with either Legend-burnout ash harvester or Feast of mortal flesh Advanced manifestations.'

Specify the Advanced manifestation requirements to avoid someone legally purchasing this and being unable to use it.

ok, make the change.

Only thing I'd do here is add Wisdom to the mix. Tis standard to be able to upgrade the Mythos modifing ability score and its lack here is quite noticable.

will add Wisdom. never noticed that in the other classes.

The small bonus and extremely niche application make this very underwhelming. What if you gave a -2 to DC for all Graft/Creature-making rolls? Maybe change the name to Fleshcrafting Prodigy or something? Nothing show stopping but now it has enough general utility to actually be appealing.

As an afterthought, if you agree with me about changing this to Fleshcrafting Prodigy or somesuch, how about add an option that if this ability is taken by a Kreikiri who does not have Limb-shredding graft-taker (gasp!) then they gain the ability to harvest Graft Points as if they did. I know it's a bit a niche thing but I think it could be quite useful. Granting minions a level of Kreikiri to gather resources but lacking the ability to challenge their master seems to be a good option to provide a future Flesh Emperor.

I like the suggestion for change, I never considered the idea of passing around graft points. What if I caused the excellency to grant an additional augment augment for created creatures that allows them to harvest graft points, while also adding wording to Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker that allows creatures capable of harvesting graft points to give them to one another?

on an unrelated note, I am now wanting to add a graft point based economy run by a Nation of Kreikiri' to my home game.

You have no idea how much I like this ability. With this single Excellency you usher in an industrial revolution of gooey war-beasts. You ensure that long after the Flesh Emperor is defeated/deposed/consumed the Flesh Empire will continue. That said, the wording needs a bit of a clean-up.

You need to change the prereq to Monster-Making Beast-Lord. The Kreikiri should know how to make creatures before he creates such a specialist creature. When giving the stats, just spell it out. Going through the long division of what features you were thinking about when stating up the chamber is an excercise in aggravation. For instance, the default Mouth feature provides a bite attack one size smaller than the creature it is on (small in this case, doing 1d4 damage) but the Chambers' does damage as a creature one size even smaller (tiny, doing 1d3) and has grab and swallow whole (again, on a tiny mouth). You then say that the Chamber is considered to be one size larger for the purposes of swallow whole (which normally allows swallowing of creatures one size smaller) without saying whether that is applied to the chamber itself or the mouth (a DM could easily, and reasonably, assume that medium creatures cannot fit through a tiny mouth). In the end, you have the player/DM scrambling through multiple books and homebrew to find info that should be presented in the stat block. And at the end of that search, the most logical interpretation of your wording is that the default Conversion Chambers can affect nothing larger than cats (not what I think you were going for).

Have something like...

'At the cost of 100 graft points as per the ‘Monster-Making Beast-Lord’ mythos you may produce a ‘Conversion Chamber’, this is a structure that uses the statistics of a 4 HD medium sized aberration with no movement ability, a 10 in all physical stats, a 1 in charisma and wisdom, and the mindless special quality. The Chamber has a single bite attack dealing 1d4 nonlethal damage with the grab and swallow whole (d6 nonlethal untyped damage, unable to inflict any lethal damage, and stomach HP is equal to half the chambers) abilities and with a +15 Racial bonus to grappling. Additionally the creature has the powerful build special ability, grappling as a large creature and allowing its swallow whole ability to affect medium sized creatures.'

This is just a slight rewording of what you had but there is no longer any confusion about what can and cannot be done.

yes that wording is better than my currant one and I will also provide a pre-written stat block for a chamber during my edit to make things easier at the table.

Add the bolded part or something like it. You need to state that this puppy can be refueled (not just imply it), and done so by the Kreikiri, his minnions, or others. Hmm, just thought of something. How about if a living creature is swallowed whole, but there's not enough Graft Points for the required graft, the Chamber will then vivisect an eligible creature as if it were a 1st level Kreikiri to aquire the needed Graft reserve. The limitation of living targets would parallel the initial limits on a starting Kreikiri, and the vivisection ensures both that a PCs first encounter with a hungry Chamber is not a fatal one, and to make sure that the Chamber is a somewhat inefficient source of Graft Points (corpses are easier to manage and provide more GP). Perhaps allow a DC 15 Knowledge (Dungeoneering) roll (because Aberration) to tell if the Chamber is 'hungry' or not.

This would provide all kinds of gaming goodness on both sides of the table. Not only having logistical options for the rising Flesh Emperor, but also for the sucessors of a once great Empire. Can you imagine dozens, if not hundreds, of living sacrifices to the ancient Conversion Chambers (perhaps under the guise of a rite of passage?) to empower a single Priest-King or proven warrior?

am liking the above ideas, will ad them in.

Just remove this entirely. It no longer applies since the re-write of Mental-lords’ unity. If the Kreikiri wants to affect a target with Mental-lords’ unity then he can just add the feature to the graft. No need to complicate things.

will do that.

Add the bolded part for clarity. Also, any reason why you skipped large?

the reason large seems to be skipped was that the chambers were originally going to be large sized and the wording here got left in.

The bolded part makes absolutely none of the sense. The Stomach feature creates an extradimensional space that has no relation whatsoever to the size of the host creature. I think I see where you're going here but this needs some heavy rewording. Maybe something like...

'You may add the abilities of a Conversion Chamber to a stomach feature on a creature or graft that you create for +50% of the total cost of the chamber, Increasing the implantation DC by +10 as if it were a magic item. The Stomach feature must be large enough to contain a creature of the Chambers size and the size of the Mouth attached to this Stomach limits the size of creature that can access the Chamber (ie. the basic Stomach feature can fit a huge Conversion Chamber, accomodating up to 16 medium creatures so long as it was attached to a large mouth feature, or a small mouth if equipped with the Entryway augment to allow access for medium creatures). The Conversion Chamber/Stomach uses the hosts HP and abilities as per a normal graft (rather than the 4 HD of a standard Conversion Chamber) with the limitation that the +15 Racial bonus to grapple only applies within the affected Stomach.'

This is a little more wordy but it spells everything out and gives a concrete example, which I think is necessary. Considering the sheer cost of the chamber it should be treated like a magic item for graft DC purposes.

will use the wording here, says what I want the ability to do in a way that makes sense. I really must thank you for all the example wordings you give really helping out editing the class, so thanks.

This is both cool and useless at the same time. The base Limb-shredding graft-taker already lets you replicate any magic item with a graft. Not by making a magic item, but by making a graft that does the exact same thing. Right now, all this ability does is provide the ability to spend gold or Mythos points (not needed) to create a niche item (magic item grafts) apparently using a system that the Kreikiri doesn't usually have access to (standard magic item creation), all without benefiting from any other class abilities (any enhancements he has for grafting).

If you want something like this to work you need to incorporate it into the existing graft system. Perhaps say that you select one type of magical graft normally acessible through the Graft Flesh feat (Fiendish, Undead, Abloeth, etc.) without regard to racial prerequisites. When making grafts through Limb-shredding graft-taker that duplicate a selected magical graft (including any limitations, if any) then the Graft Point cost of this magic item component is halved. This is cumulative with any other enhancements/atlerations to the Kreikiri's graft making capabilities (such as Eldritch Living-Weapon).

This can help balance the overpriced nature of magical grafts, provide what you seem to be going for, and avoids introducing a new system (magic item creation) that is already covered by grafts.

will go for this idea. the original idea behind this excellency was simply to give the class some way to access the prior-existing system for the magical grafts (when I wrote this I was running out of ideas).

This is an ok ability, just seems a little weak. Maybe boost the save bonus to +3 or +4. This is a niche ability that will not apply all that often. Let it have an impact when it does.

aye, will do so.

This is another ability that has some extremely complex implications and so is in desperate need of some clarification/elaboration.

You have a four stage system to turn grafts into inherited traits. It's relatively simple (which is good) and easy to resolve on paper. Due to the way it is presented though, it will become a bookkeeping nightmare in actual play. Why? Because players, that's why. No one will wait till F4 before re-augmentation. As soon as they reach F1 any grafts that did not carry forward will be reattached and/or rebred with a more complete specimen (there is no incest when it comes to hermaphroditic, force-grown, tentacled, warbeasts). By the time F4 is achieved for all the desired grafts you will have to set up a genealogy website to track all of the seperate F-strains.

Keep the mechanics, just simplify the application. Instead of having the F1-4 classifications apply to the breeding generations, have them apply to the individual grafts themselves. Tracking the changes becomes so much easier. And try changing the F- designations to something more flavourful/meaningful. How about something like Retained->Tumorous->Inherited->Natural. Something like that will provide a clear mental picture of the progress and so is much easier to keep track of. Wording on something like this can be a bitch, so let me see if I can suggest something...

Spoiler

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'A Kreikiri can now allow the gifts of his craft to spread through the generations. When creating a graft the Kreikiri may add an free augmentation to make it a Legacy graft. When a creature to which you have attached a Legacy graft (including grafts from the graft flesh feat should you possess it) reproduces, its offspring each have a 50% chance of possessing an identical copy of the graft(s) of that parent (roll individually for each graft, and for both parents should both have grafts) that loses the Legacy augment and gains an augment called Retained. For each Retained graft the offspring receive a further d4 is rolled to determine when the grafts effects become available (1- from birth, 2-a week to a year after birth, 3- early-mid childhood, 4-upon puberty). Grafts available from birth can cause potential problems for the mother should her race produce live young. A Retained graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Retained augment and gaining Legacy) and attached to another creature as per normal.

Should a creature bearing a Retained graft then continue on to reproduce, each of their offspring in turn have a 50% chance of inheriting the parents Retained graft, and gain access to them at the same time as the parent (i.e they share the equivalent result from the d4 roll). Grafts inherited in this way lose the Retained augment and gain the Tumorous augment. A Tumorous graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Tumorous augment without a replacement augment) and attached to another creature as per normal. After having bonded to this degree with it`s host the graft is no longer capable of breeding through with another, or restarting the process should it be reattached.

Should the host of a Tumorous graft reproduce their children behave as above but have a 75% chance of inheriting Tumorous grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts should she herself possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Tumorous augment and gain the Inherited augment. An Inherited graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft, but cannot be attached to another creature. They can then be reconverted to Graft Points if the Kreikiri is capable of doing so (with the Meat Reprocessing manifestation for example) but are otherwise useless after being torn from their host.

If an Inherited graft is passed on to one more generation the offspring have a 100% chance of gaining the Inherited grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts even if she herself does not possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Inherited augment and gain the Natural augment. A Natural graft does not count against the graft limit and cannot be removed as a normal graft. The abilities of a Natural graft are now considered to be racial traits in all respects and no longer counts as a graft in any real way (ie. it can no longer be siphoned for Mythos Points by Power-stealing aberrant-liege and similar) and will always breed true in any further offspring. The host of a Natural graft is essentially the progenitor of a new strain of his former race.

A creature can have multiple grafts all at different levels of integration and each graft is tracked seperately.'

Spoilered because it's long. That covers just about every potential conflict that I can think of and still follows the basis of your original system. Let me know what you think.

ok, will use the adjusted wording. not entirely happy with the concept of 'farming grafts' but I can see the logic in doing so and it is an interesting ability to work with.

Fascinating ability but in desperate need of some clarification and elaboration.

This has to be clarified and should be placed before listing options for change. The base rules for gestation need to be clearly stated before you start saying how they will be modified. Also, you seem to be using reproduction and gestation interchangably. Do not do this thing. In almost all cases you are refering to the gestation period of the young, nothing else. Use gestation exclusively. It avoids all confusion. This is the kind of ability where you want to remove all ambiguity. To that end try something like...

'The time gestation takes for the young to be born/hatched/whatever is standard for the mothers race. Once this time has occurred the young are born and develop as a normal infant of their race (besides possible alterations due to Modified development, see below). Should gestation periods for a creature not be known, assume 9 months for a medium sized creature. Double this time for each size above medium, and halve it for each size below. For game purposes, assume that the mother cannot become pregnant again for a period of half the gestation time after birth.'

Now you have a baseline to modify, a baseline that covers unknowns as well. The change in gestation time based on size seems to hold up pretty well for the smaller things (cats, a tiny creature, have an actual gestation time of @63 days, which is pretty bang on), but tends to get long for the bigger stuff. Consider it a balance point if you want to breed dragons.

I intended exactly how long gestation took to be the sort of thing the GM would decide. the inclusion of a default is a good idea however. I will also correct the terminology.

This is good as the default. Might want to add that this can be used to make alterations to the hosts natural reproduction process, making them marsupials, or tri-sexual parasitic breeding diads (don't look at me like that, you're the one who started this). The means could be whatever, so long as the end result is a live birth.

will add the suggested ability.

This is one that needs some serious elaboration. How strong is the egg? This is something that will come up. How about 5 Hp and Hardness 2? Half Hp (round up) for each size below medium and double Hp for each size larger. An egg needs to be kept in a safe place and at a constant temperature to mature properly, thus limiting mobility. A trade-off is that egg-layers usually produce a large number of eggs at a time (chickens can squeeze one out a day, crocodiles usually drop 40-60 during mating season...) to ensure survival of the young. While that would be logistically insane to allow in the hands of a PC, how about saying that egg-layers require half normal recovery time before another egg can be laid (so 1/4 normal gestation time) and that recovery begins at the moment of laying, not hatching. This way the penalties of immobility and vulnerability are countered with much more rapid production.

will make the added suggestions. the HP and harness seem about right and I can add the option to increase the hp and hardness.

This requires so much more info. This is not just making a clone of yourself (that's just asexual reproduction really) but instead making an individual into a multiple. Also, there would really be no 'parent', just more (and maybe smaller?) of them. Do all of the copies share the same memories/experience/levels up to the point of Mitosis? I think that they probably should. Does a PC get to control them all if they came from him? Nope. Pick one and the rest diverge. This is where any backstabbing/antisocial tndencies shown by the PC will come back to bite him.

Since instant maturation is a paid option under Modified development then default mitosis should probably split into children. Children with the memories/experience of adults. The act of reproduction would simultaneously be an act of rejuvenation. That is interesting.

This could also lead to a form of serialized immortality. Imagine a kingdom watching their Emperor/priest caste/royalty/what-have-you enter the Temple once a generation to ritually battle their dark half/sins/guilt to regain their youth, little knowing that it is a death duel between complete equals as only one is allowed to leave (getting flashbacks to Hugh Jackman in The Prestige here as well).

A balance here might be that recovery until another bout of mitosis can be initiated will take triple normal gestation time (possibly longer if the copies need to reach adulthood first). Another consideration is that the mitosis option will probably need the greatest investment in Modified development to be functionally useful in an actual game. Either way, this needs much more consideration than it has currently recieved. Let me know what you think.

I will clarify the details of this. will also point out that the original creature is effectively destroyed and several copies are made (1d4+1, or a number based on a graft point cost?). will probably also make a point in noting that, should the original creature be a PC, one of the new creatures retains sufficient Emery to grant it the originals class levels (and functions as the replacement character).

Replace the bolded part with something like...

'Such creatures may reproduce whenever they chose, subject to the gestation and recovery times of their method.'

The asexual portion already has a graft cost. The gameplay value of the feature is negligible (telling a creature to breed with a mate, or to initiate asexual reproduction are functionally identical) and so should not have any penalties to recovery time.

will add the wording

This just needs to be expanded in some logical ways and have the stacking penalty removed. There is no benefit to both extending and reducing gestation time at once, so if a player wants to extend gestation 3 weeks at the cost of 9 Graft points, let them. How about something like...

'• The time needed to gestate may be lengthened; this reduces the cost of applying this quality by -1 for every additional month added (shorter increases may be added but provide no points), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the penalty may be doubled (to 2 months) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any excess reduction may be spent towards the modified development quality.'

Similarly for the next one...

'• The time needed to reproduce may be reduced; this increases the cost of applying this quality by +10 for every week you reduce it by (smaller reductions may be added but grant no discount to the cost), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the benefit may be doubled (to 2 weeks) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum gestation/recovery time of 1 day).'

This is just a minor extension of your original balance but provides many more options.

will add in your wording.

The costs and options for playing with the age categories seem good. Though this...

Should be removed and incorporated into the previous options. You already have an option for instant maturation so there really is no reason to have a minimum maturation time. Just make sure that below a certain point it has a cost. To that end...

'Reducing the lifespan reduces the cost of this quality by -5 for every two years you remove, which may be from any age category, including their childhood (the time anywhere below their races adulthood). Smaller reductions may be made but do not provide any Graft points. For a creature of intelligence three or higher these reductions may never shorten their childhood to shorter than five years.

Altering their age categories costs five points for every year altered, which may be removed from one age category and added to any other. Any alterations that would result in a creature of intelligence three or higher reducing their childhood to shorter than five years have their cost doubled.

Any reduction below one year would then become an appropriate reduction measured in months. Any reduction below one month would then become an appropriate reduction measured in weeks. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum of 1 day). '

That should cover everything. Let me know what you think.

I like the flexibility that is offered by this.

Just specify that the creature no longer accrues bonuses for aging either. It is implied, just spell it out so there is no confusion.

will point that out.

Bloody hell, is this ever a great ability. Remember what I said about every second ability making me spew out a new campaign world? This is definitely one of those. So many possibilities that it makes me twitchy. With a little creativity you could make a creature that approaches the reproductive weirdness of a Xenomorph from Alien. I don't care who you are, that spells fun.

The only recomendation I have is to open up the options a little bit. Perhaps for double the cost (8 Graft points) you could have a seperate larval form apply to another age category, following the same restrictions as above. This would allow things like the Neogi (becoming grotesque breeders in old age) and other such fun.

[/SPOILER]

nice idea, did not consider allowing additional life cycle stages. will add.

Just make sure that you add the example at level 15. Either 12 attacks at level 15 (2+2/3 per level) or 10 attacks at level 15 (2/3 per level). Going with 10 attacks using just 2/3 levels is probably a bit more balanced, but in that case you really need to add the example because it may not be obvious that the change in math was intended. When seeing you go from X + [A Fraction] to just [Some Other Fraction] there can be confusion as to whether the missing 'X +' was a typo or not. The example removes all of that confusion.

clarified, but open to removing the '2+' part and leaving it just 2/3.

I am also using your ideas with Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry, they've inspired a mythos for the epic level prestige class.

[Quarian Rex]

not sure weather to class racial statistic penalties as a weakness, I'll have a look at some creatures with level adjustment before I make a choice here (as a lot of the monsters have more penalties than average in some scores the potentially significant increase they may receive may be unbalancing, at least to do so all at once. as an idea what to you think about each purchase of the Excellency allow one -2 of racial penalties to be removed.

I understand the concern here, but I would counter that Excellencies themselves are not cheap (additional purchases become more and more expensive with each purchase) so getting rid of a -2 penalty per purchase seems too minor. How about getting rid of all the penalties associated with a single attribute per purchase? That way a character of questionable ancestry will still need multiple purchases to account for racial/template deficits but can free up key attributes (like Wisdom on a Kreikiri) without massive investment.

I like the suggestion for change, I never considered the idea of passing around graft points. What if I caused the excellency to grant an additional augment augment for created creatures that allows them to harvest graft points, while also adding wording to Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker that allows creatures capable of harvesting graft points to give them to one another?

The note on Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker is a great idea (Graft points are described as meat and viscera anyway) but I have reservations about the augment. Harvesting is the keystone of the Kreikiri, do not lessen that. Currently, you already have an augment that allows harvesting, Transient Skill adding a level of Kreikiri. It's expensive but it works. It also has the associated danger of a creature gaining more levels and becoming a possible rival. That is interesting and seems to fit the theme of the class. Having a cheaper alternative to add to a creature, allowing it to harvest the appropriate bits of flesh from a target without knowing what to do with it 'just because' seems to go against the grain. If you make the addition to Fleshcrafting Prodigy (or whatever name you might go with) then you have a new specialized role within the Flesh Economy. This also allows you to have an actual economy. If harvesting is cheap, then everyone would be able to do it and that is essentially allowing people to print their own money if you ever wanted to do something like...

I am now wanting to add a graft point based economy run by a Nation of Kreikiri' to my home game.

Just some thoughts. You already have the option, and don't really gain anything by providing a cheaper alternative. Also, care to share any details about the Kreikiri nation? It would be fascinating to see how you have it set up and the implications of state sponsored fleshcrafting.

yes that wording is better than my currant one and I will also provide a pre-written stat block for a chamber during my edit to make things easier at the table.

You probably don't need a full stat block so long as things are spelled out clearly. Stat-wise it is an extremely simple organism and may not be worth the time to format to look right on the forums.

will use the wording here, says what I want the ability to do in a way that makes sense. I really must thank you for all the example wordings you give really helping out editing the class, so thanks.

Not a problem. If I point out an issue with something I usually try to offer a solution if I can see one. That, and when I write I often have a hard time with revisions. It looked good the first time so it can be difficult trying to shoehorn in a correcton. Hell, I've given up on projects because I couldn't figure out the phrasing for a needed change. If I can reshuffle what you have already said to save you some similar brain pain then I am happy to oblige.

ok, will use the adjusted wording. not entirely happy with the concept of 'farming grafts' but I can see the logic in doing so and it is an interesting ability to work with.

I understand your concern and share it, which is why I put in the increasing limitations for reharvesting. What if you increased the opportunity cost? By that I mean lower the chance to breed from Legacy->Retained to 30%. That way it's a much harder choice. Harvest for use elsewhere or allow further breeding for a more successful harvest of Tumorous grafts? That would also give a nicer progression of breeding success with integration (30% -> 50% -> 75% ->100%). What think?

will make the added suggestions. the HP and harness seem about right and I can add the option to increase the hp and hardness.

I might vote against the increased Hp/Hardness options. I think that the relative fragility is an interesting balance point. If the player really wants tougher eggs, then he can breed bigger monsters.

I will clarify the details of this. will also point out that the original creature is effectively destroyed and several copies are made (1d4+1, or a number based on a graft point cost?). will probably also make a point in noting that, should the original creature be a PC, one of the new creatures retains sufficient Emery to grant it the originals class levels (and functions as the replacement character).

If that's the direction you are looking I think that this could be a missed opportunity. Mitosis type things are something you really don't see in the game (it's rare even for oozes) and applying it to a sapient creature opens up all kinds of fun questions. This really should be a more unique option, it just doesn't have to be a particularly great option.

I really like the idea of them being copies, not just offspring. That leads to retaining memories/levels. This also leads to chaos since no DM wants a player to re-enact Agent Smith from the third Matrix movie. How about when the character divides it results in two identical copies of the character but each suffers two levels/HD of level loss that cannot be restored by any means (other than normal Xp gain of course). This way you have all the fun of instant shared-memory twins, and questioning what it truly means to be an individual, but facing severe diminishing returns should a character decide to populate a country with himself.

You also need to figure out what to do with the various biological resources. Mythos points chould be split evenly, with odd amounts going to the PC. Graft points are technically actual gooey bits and so would be dealt with like any other posession. Grafts, though, need special attention. Baseline grafts should be assigned randomly to either creature. The Legacy and integrated grafts have to be treated differently though. The Retained through to Natural grafts were all something the creature was born with and so should be grown on each copy creature, but still have a chance of further integration. Legacy grafts would be like baseline grafts in that they are not automatically kept, but still provide a chance for integration.

What would this look like in play? Lets have a 13th level character named Robert get a Mitosis graft. Robert currently has 3 grafts, a normal graft, a Legacy graft, and a Retained graft. After coming to terms with becoming asexual, Robert decides to initiate Mitosis. After the gestation period (9 months since it wasn't modified, and during which he put on a few pounds but not much) he enacts a scene straight out of a Cronenberg movie. In his place are two teenage versions of himself covered in gore (teenage because I can't see a grown, viable, organism splitting into pre-mature, non-viable, organisms). We will call them Bob and Bobby, and both are 11th level and retain all of their prior memories and experiences. The normal graft can only go to one so Bob randomly gets it. The Legacy graft gives both a chance to inherit it (30% chance for each of them), going to whoever does not inherit, or rolled randomly as a normal graft if neither inherit. In this case, Bobby inherited a Retained copy but Bob did not, so the Legacy graft automatically goes to Bob. Lastly, the Retained graft is checked for inheritance on both (50% chance). In this case both failed the roll (so neither gets a Tumorous version) but both keep the retained versions of the graft. They can't initiate another Mitosis for 15 years (until they reach adulthood since their development was not modified), and even if they had instant maturation they would still need to wait 27 months due to recovery time.

The end result is that Mitosis would be extremely efficient for graft integration but have a horrible, unavoidable, cumulative cost (level loss) on the affected character. This is a unique opportunity and I think it is very capable of being balanced. What do you think?

A though about your mentioning the 1d4+1 copies and such. Think hard about allowing twins/litters and that sort of thing. That will be heavily abused. It is a significant force multiplier when breeding a new army. During early drafts of my PEACH for Modified Gestation I was going to recomend an option to allow multiple births but no matter how I worked it I came back to the conclusion that I (or someone like me) would use that option to break the game.

clarified, but open to removing the '2+' part and leaving it just 2/3.

Much as I hate to nerf things, I think goinf from 6->10 natural attacks is easier to deal with balance-wise than 6->12. Consider that a vote for the removal od the '2+' at level 15.

I am also using your ideas with Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry, they've inspired a mythos for the epic level prestige class.

Perstige class for the Kreikiri (epic or otherwise)? Me so very excited.

[Yasahiro]

Here are some comments from happy buyers.

I, being a fun guy, used the Graft and Monster-creating Mythos, turning them into a feat for a character in my campaign. Of course, my DM is keeping me busy so I don't use it much... Though it could also be because it IS level 1. It is nice to play as Ozodrin doctor... kek.

I have slightly changed the rules of it but the main idea remains the same, except it requires having access to the features or studying the organs, limbs and creature Types and subtypes.

Yes, it will shape up to quite a high power game later on, but it is only because this ability... IS SO FUN! I would have played Keikiri itself... But I don't want to force the whole might of Mythos class on my unprepared DM, it would make him go crazy.

I must thank you plenty for creating this class, it's idea and its mythos.

[ThreadNecro5]

I understand the concern here, but I would counter that Excellencies themselves are not cheap (additional purchases become more and more expensive with each purchase) so getting rid of a -2 penalty per purchase seems too minor. How about getting rid of all the penalties associated with a single attribute per purchase? That way a character of questionable ancestry will still need multiple purchases to account for racial/template deficits but can free up key attributes (like Wisdom on a Kreikiri) without massive investment.

ok, the removing penalties by source is a good idea that fixes my worries about the idea, so will use that.

The note on Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker is a great idea (Graft points are described as meat and viscera anyway) but I have reservations about the augment. Harvesting is the keystone of the Kreikiri, do not lessen that. Currently, you already have an augment that allows harvesting, Transient Skill adding a level of Kreikiri. It's expensive but it works. It also has the associated danger of a creature gaining more levels and becoming a possible rival. That is interesting and seems to fit the theme of the class. Having a cheaper alternative to add to a creature, allowing it to harvest the appropriate bits of flesh from a target without knowing what to do with it 'just because' seems to go against the grain. If you make the addition to Fleshcrafting Prodigy (or whatever name you might go with) then you have a new specialized role within the Flesh Economy. This also allows you to have an actual economy. If harvesting is cheap, then everyone would be able to do it and that is essentially allowing people to print their own money if you ever wanted to do something like...

will include your idea of adding the ability to harvest points to the excellency.

Also, care to share any details about the Kreikiri nation? It would be fascinating to see how you have it set up and the implications of state sponsored fleshcrafting.

i've just thought of some basic details on how to add it to the campaign and some degree of structure. I will put some of the mental notes and ideas I have in a spoiler box below.

Spoiler

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campaign details: will be using in my solo pathfinder campaign with my nephew, playing an orc fighter/ranger gusalt (or however you spell it) who has the highest body count of a LV2 non-caster you've ever seen, and is one murder away from becoming CE.

planning to set it underground (for campaign simplicity as that's where my player(s) are. will mainly be an immense cavern system containing about four city's (and maybe a few towns). one city will be beside an underground lake.

main population will be mongrelmen (or beings who might as well be) with a significant number of inherited grafts, but will have a wide number of creatures, created and natural (I like the variety it will allow). in a society with the number of weird creatures it would support race, as well as appearance, deformity and other such body issues would be a non-issue.

each city is lead by a Kreikiri of about 10-15th level, and the main 'capital' city is a Kreikiri of 19th level (perhaps the original founder of the nation who created the other leaders).

may include some conflict with stuff from the abyss as I currently have the player facing two rival demon lord cults.

a lucrative business could likely be found in hunting creatures for the Kreikiri' to convert into graft points

in terms of life for the commoners it would likely be that cosmetic grafting would be common (treated like ear piercings, or perhaps even as mundane as hair dye), as well as more practical grafting being used my most members of society. working would be mandatory (as someone who is not otherwise useful could in theory find themselves used as spare parts), with people sorted into what jobs they would be good at (and potently modified as necessary/desired)

money would likely be traded as pure graft points between Kreikiri', while the common people would probably use simple common-use grafts as trading material, with banking and basic grafting being carried out by a caste of level 1-3 Kreikiri overseers.

legal issues would probably also be handled by the overseers. I could see being vivisected for graft points a rather common punishment for a major crime. all corpses would likely be sent away for graft point conversion.

food would likely be confined to fungi and cavern-dwelling plants, meat being too valuable to be eaten when it could instead become graft points (it could even be seen as a somewhat scandalous action by some). obligate carnivores would subsist on a diet of specially-created meat-beasts who would likely also be a main graft-point source.

that's all my ideas so far, most of these were though of as I typed them..

You probably don't need a full stat block so long as things are spelled out clearly. Stat-wise it is an extremely simple organism and may not be worth the time to format to look right on the forums.

i'd already added it when I noticed this was written. I think its correct and decently formatted (used the formatting style of the 3.5 SRD).

I understand your concern and share it, which is why I put in the increasing limitations for reharvesting. What if you increased the opportunity cost? By that I mean lower the chance to breed from Legacy->Retained to 30%. That way it's a much harder choice. Harvest for use elsewhere or allow further breeding for a more successful harvest of Tumorous grafts? That would also give a nicer progression of breeding success with integration (30% -> 50% -> 75% ->100%). What think?

I am going for your suggestions in the prior post, I simply stated I was a tad worried about breeding grafts, but see no reason to nerf the idea or reduce the chance of inheritance.

I might vote against the increased Hp/Hardness options. I think that the relative fragility is an interesting balance point. If the player really wants tougher eggs, then he can breed bigger monsters.

ok.

If that's the direction you are looking I think that this could be a missed opportunity. Mitosis type things are something you really don't see in the game (it's rare even for oozes) and applying it to a sapient creature opens up all kinds of fun questions. This really should be a more unique option, it just doesn't have to be a particularly great option.

I really like the idea of them being copies, not just offspring. That leads to retaining memories/levels. This also leads to chaos since no DM wants a player to re-enact Agent Smith from the third Matrix movie. How about when the character divides it results in two identical copies of the character but each suffers two levels/HD of level loss that cannot be restored by any means (other than normal Xp gain of course). This way you have all the fun of instant shared-memory twins, and questioning what it truly means to be an individual, but facing severe diminishing returns should a character decide to populate a country with himself.

You also need to figure out what to do with the various biological resources. Mythos points chould be split evenly, with odd amounts going to the PC. Graft points are technically actual gooey bits and so would be dealt with like any other posession. Grafts, though, need special attention. Baseline grafts should be assigned randomly to either creature. The Legacy and integrated grafts have to be treated differently though. The Retained through to Natural grafts were all something the creature was born with and so should be grown on each copy creature, but still have a chance of further integration. Legacy grafts would be like baseline grafts in that they are not automatically kept, but still provide a chance for integration.

What would this look like in play? Lets have a 13th level character named Robert get a Mitosis graft. Robert currently has 3 grafts, a normal graft, a Legacy graft, and a Retained graft. After coming to terms with becoming asexual, Robert decides to initiate Mitosis. After the gestation period (9 months since it wasn't modified, and during which he put on a few pounds but not much) he enacts a scene straight out of a Cronenberg movie. In his place are two teenage versions of himself covered in gore (teenage because I can't see a grown, viable, organism splitting into pre-mature, non-viable, organisms). We will call them Bob and Bobby, and both are 11th level and retain all of their prior memories and experiences. The normal graft can only go to one so Bob randomly gets it. The Legacy graft gives both a chance to inherit it (30% chance for each of them), going to whoever does not inherit, or rolled randomly as a normal graft if neither inherit. In this case, Bobby inherited a Retained copy but Bob did not, so the Legacy graft automatically goes to Bob. Lastly, the Retained graft is checked for inheritance on both (50% chance). In this case both failed the roll (so neither gets a Tumorous version) but both keep the retained versions of the graft. They can't initiate another Mitosis for 15 years (until they reach adulthood since their development was not modified), and even if they had instant maturation they would still need to wait 27 months due to recovery time.

The end result is that Mitosis would be extremely efficient for graft integration but have a horrible, unavoidable, cumulative cost (level loss) on the affected character. This is a unique opportunity and I think it is very capable of being balanced. What do you think?

i'm liking your idea here, whenever I write about ideas for the mitosis option i'm always being caught between 'proper' mitosis and something more like budding.

Perstige class for the Kreikiri (epic or otherwise)? Me so very excited.

glad to hear, as far as what it is its basically the natural evolution of Living-world shintai combined with some psionic ability. by the end of the class you should be becoming something akin to the brethren moons from the dead space games (yes: moons, plural). as expected the class will have the side effect of breaking your campaign setting.

[ThreadNecro5]

Here are some comments from happy buyers.

I, being a fun guy, used the Graft and Monster-creating Mythos, turning them into a feat for a character in my campaign. Of course, my DM is keeping me busy so I don't use it much... Though it could also be because it IS level 1. It is nice to play as Ozodrin doctor... kek.

I have slightly changed the rules of it but the main idea remains the same, except it requires having access to the features or studying the organs, limbs and creature Types and subtypes.

Yes, it will shape up to quite a high power game later on, but it is only because this ability... IS SO FUN! I would have played Keikiri itself... But I don't want to force the whole might of Mythos class on my unprepared DM, it would make him go crazy.

I must thank you plenty for creating this class, it's idea and its mythos.

good to hear your enjoying playing around with stuff from the class, I can say that it has came to reflect my GMing mindset quite well of giving players a load of toys to play around with, so between that, it being fun to play, and having someone (more or less) actually play the thing, the Kreikiri can now officially be called successful homebrew .

[Yasahiro]

Spoiler

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campaign details: will be using in my solo pathfinder campaign with my nephew, playing an orc fighter/ranger gusalt (or however you spell it) who has the highest body count of a LV2 non-caster you've ever seen, and is one murder away from becoming CE.

planning to set it underground (for campaign simplicity as that's where my player(s) are. will mainly be an immense cavern system containing about four city's (and maybe a few towns). one city will be beside an underground lake.

main population will be mongrelmen (or beings who might as well be) with a significant number of inherited grafts, but will have a wide number of creatures, created and natural (I like the variety it will allow). in a society with the number of weird creatures it would support race, as well as appearance, deformity and other such body issues would be a non-issue.

each city is lead by a Kreikiri of about 10-15th level, and the main 'capital' city is a Kreikiri of 19th level (perhaps the original founder of the nation who created the other leaders).

may include some conflict with stuff from the abyss as I currently have the player facing two rival demon lord cults.

a lucrative business could likely be found in hunting creatures for the Kreikiri' to convert into graft points

in terms of life for the commoners it would likely be that cosmetic grafting would be common (treated like ear piercings, or perhaps even as mundane as hair dye), as well as more practical grafting being used my most members of society. working would be mandatory (as someone who is not otherwise useful could in theory find themselves used as spare parts), with people sorted into what jobs they would be good at (and potently modified as necessary/desired)

money would likely be traded as pure graft points between Kreikiri', while the common people would probably use simple common-use grafts as trading material, with banking and basic grafting being carried out by a caste of level 1-3 Kreikiri overseers.

legal issues would probably also be handled by the overseers. I could see being vivisected for graft points a rather common punishment for a major crime. all corpses would likely be sent away for graft point conversion.

food would likely be confined to fungi and cavern-dwelling plants, meat being too valuable to be eaten when it could instead become graft points (it could even be seen as a somewhat scandalous action by some). obligate carnivores would subsist on a diet of specially-created meat-beasts who would likely also be a main graft-point source.

that's all my ideas so far, most of these were though of as I typed them..

I like this setting a lot. I am actually planning on setting up such a city or similar to such a thing in MY own campaign.

i'm liking your idea here, whenever I write about ideas for the mitosis option i'm always being caught between 'proper' mitosis and something more like budding.

Speaking of budding...

glad to hear, as far as what it is its basically the natural evolution of Living-world shintai combined with some psionic ability. by the end of the class you should be becoming something akin to the brethren moons from the dead space games (yes: moons, plural). as expected the class will have the side effect of breaking your campaign setting.

I started laughing at this.

[ThreadNecro5]

that is me made the changes to the excellencys.

I am also announcing that I will be unable to check back in here for a few days, about three or so, due to staying with a relative.

[Quarian Rex]

Just a quick review of some of the recent changes. Everything looks great and most of what I have to say is basically nitpicking, but hopefully useful nitpicking.


Excellency's

Spoiler

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Resculpting the flesh

Each time you take this Excellency you lose all the permanent negative statistic modifiers you possess form a single source, for example race, template, etc.

I suggest you change the bolded part to ability score. Current wording means that things like to-hit/AC penalties for size can be removed, and I don't think that was the intention.

Fleshcrafting Prodigy

Remember to bump up the font on this one to match the others.

Structure shifting alterations

This Excellency can create essentially any alteration to the humanoid form, but any unnatural...

Replace humanoid with 'creature's' and you're good. Current wording implies a limitation that does not seem to be intended.

Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration

If you're going with Genetic as a label (I'm still partial to Tumorous but I am full of bias) then you might want to switch the name with Inherited so there is a more clear progression. Genetic sounds like a deeper bond than Inherited. After all, crack addiction and AIDS can be inherited yet are not genetic.

Also, a note should be made about the DCs of Modified gestation and Modified development. While both options can become quite expensive they do not add any real mechanical advantage (other than a strategic one, which doesn't apply in a combat encounter) and so should probably not modify the implantation/creation DC much. Perhaps say that Modified gestation and Modified development each count as a CL 2 magic item (regardless of the number of graft points spent within each augment) for the purposes of implantation/creation.

Modified gestation
Laying eggs

The HP of the egg is halved per size the parents are smaller than medium (rounded up) and doubled for each...

Just add the bolded part to prevent the eggs from almost immediately losing all Hp and removing the question of whether a Diminutive egg has zero Hp.

Mitosis

I see that you doubled-down and just had the mitosis auto-progress the graft integration. Good call. That's actually a really good counterpoint to the automatic level loss. It provides the player with yet another difficult choice to make and results in clear, concise language. Nice.

Kreikiri Fantastic Mythos

Spoiler

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Power-stealing aberrant-liege

... having an amount of mythos points equal to 1/5th of the amount of mythos points it would cost to purchase the mythos used, unless some other points-based medium is used in the mythos, using 1/5th the value of points used instead, e.g. a creature with a Kreikiri–granted graft counts as having an amount equal to 1/5th the amount of points used to make the graft.

Just add the bolded parts, otherwise the Graft Point -> Mythos Point conversion rate will be way too high.

Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry

Once the creature becomes mindless it is also driven onto a feral state in which it will violently lash out at anything animate around it that is not itself another creature in this state, including the Kreikiri who caused its suffering. Mindless creatures created in this way can still be 'Pushed' (as per the Handle Animal skill, regardless of creature type) by the Kreikiri who initiated this Mythos at any time, and it can be applied to multiple creatures in the same area (so long as the Kreikiri can be percieved). These mindless creatures, being Mindless, have trouble focusing on a task for long.

Pushing such a creature to preform any trick other than 'Attack' will only work for 1d3 rounds before the creature forgets what it was doing and seeks something to maul (including the Kreikiri). Even the 'Attack' trick will only hold the creatures attention until its current target is incapacitated, after which it will attack those who have injured it/are closest (again, including the Kreikiri). The duration of the creatures attention is not known by the Kreikiri. Further sucessful attempts to push the creature reset the duration of the control.

Try adding the bolded parts (or something like it). As much as I go on about the lack of control being a balance point, I think it is entirely appropriate to allow the Kreikiri to direct the hate-flood of a tsunami of death-beasts. Why? Because 'Pushing' is a full-round action and a DC 25 skill check. With a 1d3 rnd duration on anything but an attack action he will need to be making that check every round to make sure he stays in control of the pack/herd/whatever. And if he blinks? If he stutters? They pounce.

That sounds like all kinds of fun.

Mental-lords’ unity

Creature:
you may add up to a number of instincts equal to ¼ of your Kreikiri level. These are added during construction and may not be changed later. The instincts serve in part form the core of the personality and temperament of the creature and, should they breed, their offspring. A creature is unable to resist these inborn instincts in any way, though further instincts added through grafts may be resisted as normal

Add the bolded or somesuch. It is implied, just spell out the mechanical effect of that implication.

Mind-warping restructuring
Conditions:
Helpless

Just remove Helpless from the list. This is usually a side-effect of other conditions (like unconsciousness, or paralysis), not an inflictable condition in and of itself.

Ever-shifting protean-mastery

The kyniteros was not bound by piecing itself out of harvested flesh, it was able to manifest its power at a moment’s notice, unbound by form.

This mythos grants the Kreikiri the ability to store a number of grafts internally and withdraw them into itself.

Looks like you double posted these sentences. Just get rid of one of the sets.

*Campaign Notes*

Nice. The founder of the nation becoming the capital? Double nice. Also, using Mongrelmen as the end result of generations of unrestricted graft breeding is a good touch.

This part did get me thinking though...

food would likely be confined to fungi and cavern-dwelling plants, meat being too valuable to be eaten when it could instead become graft points...

One thing that I noticed right away when first reading this class was that harvesting was a very selective process. By that I mean that a base Kreikiri harvesting a human can only get enough Graft points to make a single limb on a perfect roll (getting 4 Graft points), but is far more likely to only be able to get enough for a mouth or an eye. It looks like only the very best bits are useful for grafting.

That leaves a lot of leftover meat. I mean a lot. This could have some interesting implications for your society. While the peasantry might be told that meat is far too precious for them, those in power (and anyone involved in harvesting) will know better. This could later be an interesting plot point, potentially leading to uprising, when the population realizes that they are being kept weak/hungry not out of necessity, but due to choice. Interesting.

as far as what it is its basically the natural evolution of Living-world shintai combined with some psionic ability. by the end of the class you should be becoming something akin to the brethren moons from the dead space games (yes: moons, plural). as expected the class will have the side effect of breaking your campaign setting.

Nice. I always loved the lore behind those games. I am looking forward.

[Yasahiro]

To me, Bestal Shedding Blur still makes no sense. So if I want to attack two more times with my bite, I get a -4 penalty? Or does it stack with iterative attack penalty so it would be -4/-9/-14 ?

[ThreadNecro5]

Just a quick review of some of the recent changes. Everything looks great and most of what I have to say is basically nitpicking, but hopefully useful nitpicking.


Excellency's

I suggest you change the bolded part to ability score. Current wording means that things like to-hit/AC penalties for size can be removed, and I don't think that was the intention.

will fix this, I personally usually refer to the ability scores as statistics.

Remember to bump up the font on this one to match the others.

will do

Replace humanoid with 'creature's' and you're good. Current wording implies a limitation that does not seem to be intended.

will correct this, I said humanoid originally as my original thought behind the excellency was 'well someones going to ask how they could do plastic surgery and iv been looking to add an option for minor surgery, so this idea should work'

If you're going with Genetic as a label (I'm still partial to Tumorous but I am full of bias) then you might want to switch the name with Inherited so there is a more clear progression. Genetic sounds like a deeper bond than Inherited. After all, crack addiction and AIDS can be inherited yet are not genetic.

makes sense, will make the swap.

Also, a note should be made about the DCs of Modified gestation and Modified development. While both options can become quite expensive they do not add any real mechanical advantage (other than a strategic one, which doesn't apply in a combat encounter) and so should probably not modify the implantation/creation DC much. Perhaps say that Modified gestation and Modified development each count as a CL 2 magic item (regardless of the number of graft points spent within each augment) for the purposes of implantation/creation.

good idea.

Just add the bolded part to prevent the eggs from almost immediately losing all Hp and removing the question of whether a Diminutive egg has zero Hp.

will add.

I see that you doubled-down and just had the mitosis auto-progress the graft integration. Good call. That's actually a really good counterpoint to the automatic level loss. It provides the player with yet another difficult choice to make and results in clear, concise language. Nice.

thank you.

Just add the bolded parts, otherwise the Graft Point -> Mythos Point conversion rate will be way too high.

will correct this.

Try adding the bolded parts (or something like it). As much as I go on about the lack of control being a balance point, I think it is entirely appropriate to allow the Kreikiri to direct the hate-flood of a tsunami of death-beasts. Why? Because 'Pushing' is a full-round action and a DC 25 skill check. With a 1d3 rnd duration on anything but an attack action he will need to be making that check every round to make sure he stays in control of the pack/herd/whatever. And if he blinks? If he stutters? They pounce.

That sounds like all kinds of fun.

nice idea, it should like it could make for some tense moments on the table.

Add the bolded or somesuch. It is implied, just spell out the mechanical effect of that implication.

will do.

Just remove Helpless from the list. This is usually a side-effect of other conditions (like unconsciousness, or paralysis), not an inflictable condition in and of itself.

ok.

Looks like you double posted these sentences. Just get rid of one of the sets.

must have got left in when I pasted in new information.

Nice. The founder of the nation becoming the capital? Double nice. Also, using Mongrelmen as the end result of generations of unrestricted graft breeding is a good touch.

another idea I have had is the founder-city itself using a graft with the puppet feature to act as its 'face' to the public, as well as others to act as an additional 'face in the crowd' option to interact with the people.

One thing that I noticed right away when first reading this class was that harvesting was a very selective process. By that I mean that a base Kreikiri harvesting a human can only get enough Graft points to make a single limb on a perfect roll (getting 4 Graft points), but is far more likely to only be able to get enough for a mouth or an eye. It looks like only the very best bits are useful for grafting.

That leaves a lot of leftover meat. I mean a lot. This could have some interesting implications for your society. While the peasantry might be told that meat is far too precious for them, those in power (and anyone involved in harvesting) will know better. This could later be an interesting plot point, potentially leading to uprising, when the population realizes that they are being kept weak/hungry not out of necessity, but due to choice. Interesting.

well the people in the cities wouldn't be kept weak due to how a Kreikiri could not want weak servants. outside of cities could still be possible with the forgotten peoples of the society beginning a political rebellion. in the main creator-city it would certainly be interesting as the city itself would be making natural attacks and altering itself in battle. not to mention that forming a rebellion inside the city would be impossible as the walls and streets are literally listening in on you (and probably visibly watching too).


also to reply to yasahiro I will specify in that mythos.

[qazzquimby]

You should make it clear to new readers what the theme of the class is. The name says nothing, the fluff is a wall of text that is mostly background, and the banner just looks like kind of gross people.

[Yasahiro]

I realized a dumb.

What is the DC for Will save a creature has to make if you use Power-stealing mythos on them?

[Quarian Rex]

I realized a dumb.

What is the DC for Will save a creature has to make if you use Power-stealing mythos on them?

Save DC for just about everything is 10 + 1/2 Kreikiri level + Wis mod. It's mentioned under The kyniterosis' Mythos.

[ThreadNecro5]

You should make it clear to new readers what the theme of the class is. The name says nothing, the fluff is a wall of text that is mostly background, and the banner just looks like kind of gross people.

perhaps something like 'mythic fleshwarper' could work? It sums up the basic abilities of the class. I could also add a note as to whom each banner character is.

edit:
Without a reply, I have decided that I may as well include a note as to the identities of the banner characters to help people gain a feeling of the class.

[Quarian Rex]

Continuing with the first of the Legendary mythos.

Spoiler

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Kreikiri Legendary mythos

Eternal-legends-defeated supremacy returned {Whole}

This is an interesting, if incredibly niche, ability. The chances of getting homebrew into most games? Slim. The chances of said homebrew being the basis of a campaign (or even having a presence outside of the PC)? Slim to none. Despite that, this can be a great ability in the right situation. Just loosen up with the penalties a bit. Only giving access to exceptional mythos and charging an extra 50%? Ok, harsh, maybe unnecessary. Having the price go up 10% every time you take one? That's just petty. And requires excessive bookeeping and annoying math (as opposed to the fun math). Just to gain access to the most basic abilities of another class. Some of those abilities are pretty sweet, don't get me wrong, but none are game-changers at this point in the game.

As for getting it multiple times, stop the madness, don't double the costs. This is an extremely niche ability that provides no actual powers or abilities by itself (it only allows the further purchase of additional powers). No need to charge through the nose for it.

Also, have you seen this... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...76&postcount=1
Specifically the feats at the bottom. That feat chain, available starting at level one, is more flexible and offers greater access than this Legendary Mythos. I think that is a problem. This mythos just seems like too little, too late.

I like the idea behind this mythos, consuming and using the powers of other mythos users, but the mechanics need a retooling. You need something that seems like it is worthy of a Legendary Mythos.

How about whenever you kill a Mythos user with Legend-burnout ash harvester you may gain one of their Mythos or Excellencies, of no higher level than the Kreikiri can already access. Upon purchase of this power the Kreikiri may store one Mythos and one Excellency. Either of these powers may be replaced every time a suitable target dies due to Legend-burnout ash harvester. Add two Advanced manifestations, one allowing you to store one additional Mythos, and another allowing 2 more Excellencies.

State that so long as the Kreikiri has access to a mythos from a specific class they also have any needed class abilities specific to those mythos. For example, gaining a Monster's Mythos from a Teramach would grant the Monstrous Rage class ability (but not the Scarred Flesh or Primitive Brutality class abilities), while gaining any of The Abomination's Mythos from an Olethrofex would also grant Death's Torn Tapestry (but not Horror Manifest). This way the stolen powers are fully functional.

Something along these lines will provide enough versatility and use to be worthy of its level. What do you think?

Disassociated undying-flesh {Splintered}

Great ability. Flavourful and useful. You just need to address some of the staggering implications and need to clean up some of the language. Specifically...

In the case of full round actions all relevant parts must be within 5ft of point of interaction with the action space and only a single one may be made.

This uses ill defined terms and I'm still not quite sure what you mean. I think you mean that all attacks in a full attack action must be on the same target, even if made from different detached body parts. I still have no idea what you mean by, "only a single one may be made".

Since dismemberment is so rare in actual gameplay you need to say what happens when the character tears off one of their own limbs. Once a Kreikiri gets this power they will be leaving bits of themselves around. How will this be accomplished?

Also, explain what happens if a significant portion of your body is destroyed (burned at the stake, Disintegrated, dropped into lava, etc.). As it currently stands you may be playing a sentient thumb for a full level till you can get Regenerative Restorations. In fact, you might just want to turn all of the advanced manifestations into basic manifestations. That gives the user an immediate opportunity to deal with any life-as-a-thumb type situations.

You might want to add the option to eat yourself a new body (similar to Re-genesis gambit) so long as you have a mouth. If you don't have a mouth? That's what Mutagenic mutilation is for.

The more I think about it, you need to think of this as a fleshy Lich transformation, because that's kind of what it is. The problem with that is that the base ability gives you a phylactery (your entire body) but no way to reform yourself. This really needs all of the manifestations to be Basic.

Advanced manifestations
Mutagenic mutilation (requires Ever-shifting protean-mastery)

Interesting ability. So many possibilities. I really like it.

Regenerative restorations

Almost required for pseudo-immortal regenerative goodness. Two things though. Change...

Whenever you heal naturally you gain an additional two hit points.

to...
'Whenever you heal naturally you heal an additional two points of damage (hit point or Ability damage).'

That, conbined with healing every hour, makes this the true recovery option. The boost to only Hp healing was just too lackluster.

The second point is that regrowth times are just way too long. When it comes to downtime a lot of it is hand-waived but (in my experience) most of it isn't. That is almost a month of game-time where the character is out of action. Speed this up and make it more intuitive. How about 24 hrs to get the shrunken parts version and another 48 hrs to fully recover, three days total. Long enough to have bodypart loss become meaningful, not so long that the entire campaign needs to come to a grinding halt.

Division of fragments

Another good option for the power. Seriously consider making these all basic manifestations though. Seriously.

Horror raising mutant master {Splintered}

Ensuring that even if trapped in a prison that cannot be escaped monsters will still be born. I like this very much. The only problem that I have is that it is quite 'meh' for the level. This is a very simple, relatively minor, ability that seems out of place among the Legendary mythos. Strongly consider moving this to Fantastic instead. This is a good ability and has it's place, just as a much earlier option.

Advent manifestations
Endless meat

Good name. Does exactly what it says on the tin. No complaints.

Also, Advent->Advanced.

Flesh flowing like the tide

This is a must have ability. This is also something that seems like it should be an earlier option. I strongly suggest making this entire mythos Fabtastic.

Will continue soon. Things are busy and Creeping flesh-fortress is deserving of much consideration.

[ThreadNecro5]

Continuing with the first of the Legendary mythos.

This is an interesting, if incredibly niche, ability. The chances of getting homebrew into most games? Slim. The chances of said homebrew being the basis of a campaign (or even having a presence outside of the PC)? Slim to none. Despite that, this can be a great ability in the right situation. Just loosen up with the penalties a bit. Only giving access to exceptional mythos and charging an extra 50%? Ok, harsh, maybe unnecessary. Having the price go up 10% every time you take one? That's just petty. And requires excessive bookeeping and annoying math (as opposed to the fun math). Just to gain access to the most basic abilities of another class. Some of those abilities are pretty sweet, don't get me wrong, but none are game-changers at this point in the game.

As for getting it multiple times, stop the madness, don't double the costs. This is an extremely niche ability that provides no actual powers or abilities by itself (it only allows the further purchase of additional powers). No need to charge through the nose for it.

I suppose you are right here, I did set the cost rather high.

Also, have you seen this... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...76&postcount=1
Specifically the feats at the bottom. That feat chain, available starting at level one, is more flexible and offers greater access than this Legendary Mythos. I think that is a problem. This mythos just seems like too little, too late.

I like the idea behind this mythos, consuming and using the powers of other mythos users, but the mechanics need a retooling. You need something that seems like it is worthy of a Legendary Mythos.

How about whenever you kill a Mythos user with Legend-burnout ash harvester you may gain one of their Mythos or Excellencies, of no higher level than the Kreikiri can already access. Upon purchase of this power the Kreikiri may store one Mythos and one Excellency. Either of these powers may be replaced every time a suitable target dies due to Legend-burnout ash harvester. Add two Advanced manifestations, one allowing you to store one additional Mythos, and another allowing 2 more Excellencies.

State that so long as the Kreikiri has access to a mythos from a specific class they also have any needed class abilities specific to those mythos. For example, gaining a Monster's Mythos from a Teramach would grant the Monstrous Rage class ability (but not the Scarred Flesh or Primitive Brutality class abilities), while gaining any of The Abomination's Mythos from an Olethrofex would also grant Death's Torn Tapestry (but not Horror Manifest). This way the stolen powers are fully functional.

Something along these lines will provide enough versatility and use to be worthy of its level. What do you think?

really like your idea here, more manageable than what I already have and work in like with several of the design themes I've used for the mythos. will use.

Great ability. Flavourful and useful. You just need to address some of the staggering implications and need to clean up some of the language. Specifically...

This uses ill defined terms and I'm still not quite sure what you mean. I think you mean that all attacks in a full attack action must be on the same target, even if made from different detached body parts. I still have no idea what you mean by, "only a single one may be made".

I will clarify this. what I meant by this was (I think, i'm sure it was late when I wrote this) that all parts involved in the full round action must be within 5ft of the save being acted upon/what the action is effecting. your full attack example being the most common of such cases.

Since dismemberment is so rare in actual gameplay you need to say what happens when the character tears off one of their own limbs. Once a Kreikiri gets this power they will be leaving bits of themselves around. How will this be accomplished?

perhaps I could just make it a full round action? maybe add a little damage if you recommend some cost to doing so.

Also, explain what happens if a significant portion of your body is destroyed (burned at the stake, Disintegrated, dropped into lava, etc.). As it currently stands you may be playing a sentient thumb for a full level till you can get Regenerative Restorations. In fact, you might just want to turn all of the advanced manifestations into basic manifestations. That gives the user an immediate opportunity to deal with any life-as-a-thumb type situations.

You might want to add the option to eat yourself a new body (similar to Re-genesis gambit) so long as you have a mouth. If you don't have a mouth? That's what Mutagenic mutilation is for.

The more I think about it, you need to think of this as a fleshy Lich transformation, because that's kind of what it is. The problem with that is that the base ability gives you a phylactery (your entire body) but no way to reform yourself. This really needs all of the manifestations to be Basic.

will make the manifestations basic. as for the eat-yourself a new body idea I could make that a manifestation, or include it as a part of another manifestation or the base ability (personally I think add to base ability as its simple to add and adds that regenerating yourself feature), what would you recommend?

Almost required for pseudo-immortal regenerative goodness. Two things though. Change...

to...
'Whenever you heal naturally you heal an additional two points of damage (hit point or Ability damage).'

That, conbined with healing every hour, makes this the true recovery option. The boost to only Hp healing was just too lackluster.

The second point is that regrowth times are just way too long. When it comes to downtime a lot of it is hand-waived but (in my experience) most of it isn't. That is almost a month of game-time where the character is out of action. Speed this up and make it more intuitive. How about 24 hrs to get the shrunken parts version and another 48 hrs to fully recover, three days total. Long enough to have bodypart loss become meaningful, not so long that the entire campaign needs to come to a grinding halt.

will make the suggested changes.

Ensuring that even if trapped in a prison that cannot be escaped monsters will still be born. I like this very much. The only problem that I have is that it is quite 'meh' for the level. This is a very simple, relatively minor, ability that seems out of place among the Legendary mythos. Strongly consider moving this to Fantastic instead. This is a good ability and has it's place, just as a much earlier option.

will make the change then.

Also, Advent->Advanced

autocorrect dun goofed again...

Will continue soon. Things are busy and Creeping flesh-fortress is deserving of much consideration.

don't worry, take your time. and tanks again for the PEACH.

[Quarian Rex]

I will clarify this. what I meant by this was (I think, i'm sure it was late when I wrote this) that all parts involved in the full round action must be within 5ft of the save being acted upon/what the action is effecting. your full attack example being the most common of such cases.

I see where you're going here but I might urge you against it. This is a high enough level ability that I don't think you need any unintuitive proximity based limit on how these bits can interact. At this point in their career, if a Kreikiri wants to tear off their own arm, throw it across the room to grapple someone, while he bites the head off of a mook, I think that is a perfectly appropriate form of multitasking. So long as you are clear about what can be done with an individual part (need the actual natural weapon on the severed limb to attack with it, need an entire arm to grapple, not just a thumb, etc.). Actually, you might want to allow some options with this sort of thing as well.

Say that if an attack is being made with less than the required amount of flesh then it suffers a -5 to hit/manuver check (kind of like a secondary natural attack) and does half damage. That way you can still have someone grapple with just your severed hand (hello Evil Dead), or have a single severed claw finger furiously gouging into some poor buggers' eye. Optimal? No. Fun/flavourful? Yup. You are still limited by the characters' actual action economy so there is no real way for this to be broken. Thoughts?

perhaps I could just make it a full round action? maybe add a little damage if you recommend some cost to doing so.

How about a full round action for clean removal with the option to pull it off as a move action but you need to make a DC25 Heal check or take 2d6 damage? With this level of body control it makes sense that they could detatch without trauma, yet embracing a quick and dirty method for the sake of expedience fits the theme as well.

will make the manifestations basic. as for the eat-yourself a new body idea I could make that a manifestation, or include it as a part of another manifestation or the base ability (personally I think add to base ability as its simple to add and adds that regenerating yourself feature), what would you recommend?

Adding it to the base ability seems like the best bet. It's flavourful and allows the Kreikiri to select any of the manefestations without being at a severe disadvantage. As for mechanics, you might just want to refer to Re-genesis gambit, saying that this uses the same mechanics (regrow without the grafts on missing bodyparts unless you eat their cost in Graft points as well), but that the cost of the body is prorortional to what is missing.