Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?

[Talakeal]

Has anyone else noticed that people make Gandalf out to be a huge badass? It seems like once they find out that the Istari are really Maiar in disguise they lose all sense of perspective.

My inspiration was asking was noticing a thread about The Hobbit stating that it was a shame that Gandalf had to leave Thorin's company before they got to the mountain, because if he was with them he could have easily slain Smaug singlehandedly and ended the quest right there.

To me this is a ridiculous statement, but I have heard very similar things.

For example, last week my DM stated that Gandalf was a god, and that he had single handedly defeated Sauron in personal combat on three previous occasions. Furthermore that he was only defeated (temporarily) by Durin's Bane because Durin's Bane was the king of all Balrogs and the most powerful of all Morgoth's minions.

My college roommate also insisted that Gandalf was an archangel and stated that it was kind of silly that the elves were even included on the White Council as even the weakest Maiar is orders of magnitude above the strongest elf.

I frequently see statements on the internet, including this forum, about how silly it is that the Witch King seemed to be getting the upper hand on Gandalf in the RoTK:EE, or that Gandalf needs Galadriel to save him in BoFA. I also see many statements that Gandalf alone could have ruled the world with the One Ring, and that anyone else, even Saruman, was deluded.

I have also heard people claim that, based on what he says to the Balrog before breaking the bridge, that he is the personal servant (or perhaps even incarnation) of Illuvatar and is thus stronger than even the Valar.

Where are people getting this overblown impression of Gandalf? The only thing I can figure is that they are taking his line of dialogue to one of the Hobbits about being the most dangerous person they are ever likely to meet too literally, or that they hold him in a sort of religious awe due to his "angelic" nature.

But I really don't see this backed up by either the books or the films. The Silmarillion certainly shows elves and even men who hold their own against or defeat Maiar, and sometimes even Valar, and Gandalf certainly faces his share of challenges and obstacles, including physical combat against mortals, where he seems to be outmatched, stumped, or put in danger.

Now don't get me wrong, Gandalf is certainly a major player in Middle Earth, and imo he easily makes the top 10 in both power and influence, and could even be argued to be in the top three or five, but that is not clear cut, and I would never say that he is the most powerful being in the world.

What do you think? Do you hold Gandalf in such high regard? If so why?

[LibraryOgre]

I remember a Dork Tower where it was pointed out that Gandalf was considered a bad-ass because he fought the Balrog... and we knew the Balrog was tough because it took down Gandalf.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, for starters your DM was either trying and failing to be funny or talking completely out of his arse, since every thing you quote him saying was wrong...

Other than that, I dunno. Your guess is as good as mine. I can't personally say I've seen anyone espousing the attitude you've obviously encountered yourself; so go figure. Perhaps merely the inevitable my-dad-can-beat-up-your-dad attitude some people take over things they like? I dunno.

[Talakeal]

Well, for starters your DM was either trying and failing to be funny or talking completely out of his arse, since every thing you quote him saying was wrong...
.

I figured as much, but I have not read the Silmarillion or the books of unfinished tales so I didn't want to outright call him on it. Regardless of whether it is true or not, he certainly believes it (or at least thinks it plausible enough to lie openly about it.)

[MLai]

Has anyone else noticed that people make Gandalf out to be a huge badass? It seems like once they find out that the Istari are really Maiar in disguise they lose all sense of perspective.
To me this is a ridiculous statement, but I have heard very similar things.

This is what happens when nerds take comic book logic and applies it to a novel.

[Tengu_temp]

People have preconceptions of what a god or an angel should be able to do, and then apply those preconceptions to the Maiar. Bonus points for thinking all fiction works by DND rules and thinking Gandalf should have the stats of a Solar or some other celestial.

[Zevox]

Well, for starters your DM was either trying and failing to be funny or talking completely out of his arse, since every thing you quote him saying was wrong...

Well, most of it. Calling Gandalf a god is accurate - even if a lesser one stuck in a mortal form during his time as an Istari. The rest though, yeah, very inaccurate. Exact differences in how powerful various superhuman beings in Arda are compared to each other are hard to come by, and Gandalf is not one who was known for being exceptionally powerful (rather it's his wisdom that gets commented on as his defining trait), so attributing all that power to him is very strange indeed.

I figured as much, but I have not read the Silmarillion or the books of unfinished tales so I didn't want to outright call him on it. Regardless of whether it is true or not, he certainly believes it (or at least thinks it plausible enough to lie openly about it.)

Since you don't know yourself, a quick rundown for you:

Spoiler

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My inspiration was asking was noticing a thread about The Hobbit stating that it was a shame that Gandalf had to leave Thorin's company before they got to the mountain, because if he was with them he could have easily slain Smaug singlehandedly and ended the quest right there.

Almost certainly untrue. While it's unclear how Dragons stack up to Maiar in terms of power, they're certainly portrayed as being right up there with Balrogs as far as Morgoth's most powerful servants go. Glaurung alone was a great force to be reckoned with in the First Age, and he was just the first Dragon, without even wings. In addition, being stuck in a mortal form limits Gandalf and the other Istari, and they were forbidden from using their full power anyway - see, when Ainur fight, it tends to destroy large chunks of land, and the Valar wanted to avoid that, so the Istari were very restricted in what they could do. Still, the power levels here are very unclear, so it's impossible to say for certain that Gandalf couldn't have defeated Smaug had it come down to that, but we can almost certainly say that it wouldn't have been easy for him to do so even in the best-case scenario.

For example, last week my DM stated that Gandalf was a god, and that he had single handedly defeated Sauron in personal combat on three previous occasions.

False. Gandalf and Sauron never directly fight. They are never said to encounter each other before Gandalf is dispatched as an Istari during the Third Age, and at that time the Istari are forbidden from confronting Sauron directly. The closest you get is when the White Council drives Sauron from Dol Guldur during the events of The Hobbit, and even then that was Sauron deliberately falling back because he was at that point prepared to return to Barad-Dur.

Furthermore that he was only defeated (temporarily) by Durin's Bane because Durin's Bane was the king of all Balrogs and the most powerful of all Morgoth's minions.

Very false. The Lord of the Balrogs was one called Gothmog, and he was killed near the end of the First Age, over six thousand years before then. Further, Sauron was Gothmog's peer as one of Morgoth's top lieutenants - in fact, he slightly outranked him, as it was Sauron who got left in charge when Morgoth would depart on his own, or when he was the Valar's prisoner, with Gothmog was simply the leader of Morgoth's armies. It's therefore likely the two were either similar in power or Sauron was the greater.

Also, Gandalf was killed by Durin's Bane. He was sent back by the Valar, but he was dead, as much so as it is possible for a Maia to be.

My college roommate also insisted that Gandalf was an archangel and stated that it was kind of silly that the elves were even included on the White Council as even the weakest Maiar is orders of magnitude above the strongest elf.

Archangel is another way to interpret the Ainur's status, generally favored by those who prefer to think of Eru as the only "god" of the setting - it is explicitly said that the mortal races of the world consider them gods, though. Exact power differences between Maiar and Elves are not really available, and though it is probably fair to assume that the weakest Maiar are more powerful than the strongest Elves to at least some extent, it's not clear how big the difference would be. As for the White Council, that sounds like the person is completely misunderstanding the purpose of it - the whole point was to bring together the wisest leaders of the world to guard against Sauron's return. It was the Istari's entire purpose to help those sorts of people and help them prevent Sauron's return to power, so of course they included them.

I frequently see statements on the internet, including this forum, about how silly it is that the Witch King seemed to be getting the upper hand on Gandalf in the RoTK:EE, or that Gandalf needs Galadriel to save him in BoFA.

Again, exact powers levels are hard to come by. I'd say that while the Witch-King is more likely to be beneath the full power of a Maia, again, Gandalf wasn't allowed to use his full power anyway, not even once he was sent back as Gandalf the White (at which point he was allowed more than originally), so no, neither of those is ridiculous. Plus there's the Witch-King's unique fate as well - Gandalf was at the time embodied as a human man, so despite being a Maia he may have been subject to that.

I also see many statements that Gandalf alone could have ruled the world with the One Ring, and that anyone else, even Saruman, was deluded.

Either Gandalf or Saruman would likely have been much like Sauron had they taken the One Ring. There's never any indication that either of them was more powerful than Sauron or each other as Maia - though it's likely Sauron was the most powerful of the three, since there's more remarks about his strength throughout references to him than there is about Gandalf or Saruman's, but it is possible that's just because he was Morgoth's servant and thus tended to use that strength more.

I have also heard people claim that, based on what he says to the Balrog before breaking the bridge, that he is the personal servant (or perhaps even incarnation) of Illuvatar and is thus stronger than even the Valar.

What, the "I am a servant of the secret fire" bit? Most likely any Ainu who hadn't joined Morgoth could say the same. There's no indication that Gandalf is at all special in this respect - he's just a Maia who is known for his wisdom and his friendship to the mortal races.

Where are people getting this overblown impression of Gandalf? The only thing I can figure is that they are taking his line of dialogue to one of the Hobbits about being the most dangerous person they are ever likely to meet too literally, or that they hold him in a sort of religious awe due to his "angelic" nature.

Oh, Gandalf meant that literally, no doubt. There's few in Middle-Earth who were likely more individually powerful than him, especially once he was sent back as Gandalf the White - particularly since at that point Durin's Bane and Smaug were both dead and Saruman's staff was broken - and it's very unlikely any of the Hobbits would ever run into anyone else that powerful. But that still doesn't mean he was as strong as the descriptions you've given say.

But I really don't see this backed up by either the books or the films. The Silmarillion certainly shows elves and even men who hold their own against or defeat Maiar, and sometimes even Valar, and Gandalf certainly faces his share of challenges and obstacles, including physical combat against mortals, where he seems to be outmatched, stumped, or put in danger.

There aren't any instances I know of where the Valar fight any Elves or mortals - the closest is Morgoth's duel with Fingolfin, and at that point Morgoth's personal power was greatly diminished by how much he had put forth into twisting the world and his minions, and even then he wins with only a handful of wounds and a limp to show for it. And technically Morgoth is no longer considered one of the Valar past the very earliest days of pre-history anyway.

Nor really are there many direct confrontations between Maiar and Elves or mortals. Most of them are Balrogs, who are a strangely twisted form of Maiar, and it's not clear if they were more or less powerful for it - becoming Balrogs seems to have robbed them of their shape-shifting abilities, for instance, and left them vulnerable to death in a way Maiar normally are not, since none ever return from death the way Sauron and Gandalf do. The only other instances are when Sauron and Finrod have a duel of magic songs, which Sauron wins, and when Sauron fights Huan, which Huan wins due to his fate to die only by the hands of the greatest wolf ever to live, which was Carcharoth.

That said, you're correct that most everything you mentioned in the first post is not backed up by the books or films. Most likely it's a result of making big assumptions about how powerful a Maia must be because they're described as gods - although even that doesn't explain all of them. I have no clue where your DM got the idea that he'd beaten Sauron before, much less thrice, for instance.

[Winterwind]

Nor really are there many direct confrontations between Maiar and Elves or mortals. Most of them are Balrogs, who are a strangely twisted form of Maiar, and it's not clear if they were more or less powerful for it - becoming Balrogs seems to have robbed them of their shape-shifting abilities, for instance, and left them vulnerable to death in a way Maiar normally are not, since none ever return from death the way Sauron and Gandalf do. The only other instances are when Sauron and Finrod have a duel of magic songs, which Sauron wins, and when Sauron fights Huan, which Huan wins due to his fate to die only by the hands of the greatest wolf ever to live, which was Carcharoth.

Even so, it should be pointed out that elves fought Balrogs frequently - and won. Gothmog was slain by Ecthelion (even though Ecthelion died as well). It took a whole band of Balrogs to bring down Feanor, and Feanor's sons were able to drive that entire band of Balrogs back. Glorfindel slew a Balrog, too. This, right there, aught to demonstrate that First Age elves could, absolutely, match or surpass Gandalf in power - though admittedly, that tells us nothing about how Third Age elves compare to him.

And yeah, add another voice to "Everything the OP's DM is claiming is nonsense". My favourite counterpoint would be that in the Hobbit, Gandalf is driven into desperation and is about to die in one last heroic move when the party is chased down by goblins riding wolves, before they are rescued by eagles. That doesn't exactly say "undefeatable warrior who could easily bring down a dragon" to me.

[Hopeless]

Here I was thinking he's one of a small handful of Wizards.

Remarkably he tries to avoid expending all of his spells, made me wonder if he used that ring for those pyrotechnic effects but when he fell with the Balrog I kind of ignored the Peter Jackson version and simply assumed the much heavier monster hitting the water at the bottom first and Gandalf landing after managing to recover his sword and staff so he could continue the fight against the now sodden monstrosity who was understandably unable to reignite itself and probably more hurt by the fall than the Wizard with the Feather Fall spell.

Yes I'm d&ding it I heard about the Maiar bit but for me this is a trifle much.

Still haven't finished watching the Hobbit 2 Extended Edition and haven't watched the third released movie although I also still haven't made my way through the LOTR extended edition trilogy and I actually like the Extras on those!

Gandalf love?

Well yes his fireworks are impressive!

[factotum]

Yes, Gandalf is a Maia, and Maia are very powerful--Melian was able to single-handedly protect the whole of Doriath from harm against anything Morgoth could throw at it. That doesn't really tell us anything about his effective power, though, because when he and the other Istari were sent to Middle-earth they were only allowed to use the natural powers that any mortal could acquire (although them being immortal did help a lot in allowing them to become the most powerful wizards ever, of course). The Valar had already seen what happened when beings of their power directly contested with each other in Middle-earth--the whole of Beleriand drowned beneath the ocean and who knows how many hapless mortals and elves killed? Therefore they forbade such a direct battle between the Istari and Sauron.

It's therefore nonsense to say Gandalf could have defeated Smaug single-handed. The Maia Olorin could probably have done that, but Gandalf was locked away from that power.

[Traab]

See, I always looked on gandalf as being the wise old sage with some minor powers. This is because I hadnt heard of the similarion for years after reading the initial stories. His big badass moment happens off screen, and lets face it, there are a lot of non angelic characters throughout fiction that have badass moments off screen. Bruenor battlehammer has a near identical match when he solos a fricking dragon named shimmergloom off camera, and he doesnt have a damn god bring him back to life. He trundles his way on through an underground enemy held fortress and makes his own way out. He isnt an angel, he isnt a super wizard, he is a damn dwarf with a couple magic items and is like a honey badger in that he flat out doesnt give a **** that a dwarf cant solo a dragon. He does it anyway.

Digression aside, other than that, his main powers include lighting pine cones on fire, using his staff as a flashlight, and keeping trolls arguing till they turn to stone in the daylight. So I never really bought into the godlike gandalf thing.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

"Servant of the Secret Fire" almost certainly refers to his possession of Narya, the Ring of Fire.

[pendell]

"Servant of the Secret Fire" almost certainly refers to his possession of Narya, the Ring of Fire.

I believe this is incorrect. It refers to the Flame Imperishable of Eru Illuvatar, the life-giving force placed into all beings that says: Ea! Let these things be! It's the thing that separates a living soul from inanimate matter.

As related in the Silmarillion, it is called the Secret Fire because none possess it save Illuvatar himself. It is related that Morgoth who was Melkor sought long and hard for the imperishable fire but could neither find it nor duplicate it -- how could he? It proceeds from Illuvatar and cannot be found anywhere else but with him.

He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Illuvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the fire, for it is with Illuvatar. But alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren."

Perhaps it was this desire for the fire that made him put such emphasis on seducing fire-spirits to his cause. But instead of the secret fire he could only create the "flame of Udun" -- powerful and destructive, yes, but it could not give life.

As towards Gandalf -- he was a messenger from the Valar to men, not a hero and not a general. Thus he was never allowed to use more than the most meager portion of his original strength.

That's is the fundamental difference between LOTR and D&D. D&D , at least at the epic levels, is about superheroes. They may have come from ordinary origins, but after a certain point you have fighters who can be shot as full of arrows as a pincushion, wizards who can create entire new worlds, and priests who could easily supplant their own gods in the pantheon.

LOTR is not a story about superhuman beings or heroes. It is a story about ordinary men and women thrust into extraordinary situations. Those few times when these ordinary people may become superhuman -- these are temptations from the Enemy. The desire of Boromir to seize the ring, the temptation of Samwise to use the ring to turn Mordor into a garden.

The desire for superhuman power is precisely the desire by which Sauron lured the ringwraiths into his service, and Galadriel faces the same temptation at Frodo's hand -- to take the ring and use it to become a Queen, fair and terrible.

She passes the test. She chooses to diminish and remain Galadriel, ordinary, rather than the super-elvish immortal Queen she might otherwise be.

That is a focus and underlying theme of the Lord of the Rings -- how ordinary people are thrust into extraordinary situations beyond their strength, yet find the grace to not only survive but overcome. And yet still remain ordinary.

It's a theme addressed in "Wrinkle in Time" by L'engle -- the choosing of the weak things, the despised things, the things that are not, to nullify the things that are.

Since it is the pleasure of the powers governing Middle-Earth and Leguin's world to use the weak things to nullify the things that are, it therefore follows that superhero-gandalf would diametrically contradict this ideal. So Gandalf and all the wizards are sent to provide counsel and encouragement, not to be walking artillery pieces. Saruman forgets this, and becomes a villain because of it.

Because of this, although D&D may be inspired to some extent by LOTR, at this level of theme epic-D&D diametrically contradicts this fundamental theme of LOTR.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

LOTR is not a story about superhuman beings or heroes. It is a story about ordinary men and women thrust into extraordinary situations.

I'd have to disagree there--the things these "ordinary men and women" do is still way beyond what 99.999% of people would consider reasonable; for instance, when Legolas and Gimli are fighting at the Battle of Helm's Deep, one of them kills 42 orcs and the other 41, which is an absurdly good kill ratio. Similarly, Boromir kills more than 20 orcs before being brought down in his final battle.

If by "ordinary men and women" you mean the Hobbits, well, in that case you're correct--but it doesn't really say much about the other people in the setting, and the story is at least partially about them.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Has anyone else noticed that people make Gandalf out to be a huge badass? It seems like once they find out that the Istari are really Maiar in disguise they lose all sense of perspective.

Most nerds never quite loose that 13-year-old-trying-to-be-cool urge. So everybody that's even a little badarse is suddenly Neo from the Matrix sequels or something. Or Goku from DBZ. Or is playing Exalted. Or any number of video game protags.

Its all the power fantasy urge that everything is better when you go over the top so take even a whiff of plausibility (or not) and they're all over it.

And to be fair it is kinda implied that's not an entirely inaccurate assessment of the First Age heroes, a continent did sink afterall and the black enemy of mankind challenged more then once. Its just that since Tolkien had you class he had better things to do then talk about Fingolfin's bulging thews hewing orcs ten at a time to get to Morgoth and chuck mountains at him or whatever. And thinking that omg the Maiar are so much better is then that is still ignoring quite a bit of the facts on the ground.

[Bulldog Psion]

Sometimes I think the mortals are more powerful in the Lord of the Rings than the supernatural beings:

Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: ‘Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!’ Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them.

70 trolls ... I think that this is a fair refutation of the idea that Tolkien only wrote about ordinary people.

Gandalf's account of the fight between himself and the Balrog sounds fairly epic as well:

Spoiler: Spoilered for length

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'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.

So, although the OP's DM is an obvious and embarrassing fanboy fantastico, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Gandalf was just an ordinary guy with wisdom. His wisdom mattered, but he clearly had some sort of magical power as well.

Remember his battle with the Ringwraiths on Weathertop, too:

Spoiler: Spoilered for length

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As Frodo lay, tired but unable to close his eyes, it seemed to him that far away there came a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off.

'What is the light?' he said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night.

'I do not know,' Strider answered. 'It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops.'
...

“They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.”

The Lord of the Rings makes it clear he wields some pretty spectacular combat magic. It's just that Tolkien declines to show it "on-screen" because he was trying to keep it mysterious and legendary-seeming, IMO.

(Incidentally, that's always been a major and rather annoying plot-hole for me in the books. He kills several goblins with some kind of flash in the Hobbit, uses a fire spell when fighting the wargs, some sort of fire/lightning combination defending himself on Weathertop, kills a Balrog, yet he surrenders without a peep to Saruman. Mr. Tolkien, that does not compute.)

So, I guess my points are:

1. The guy in the first post just sounds weird. Gandalf was a badass, but nowhere near that much of a badass.

2. I seriously doubt Gandalf would have had a chance against Sauron. The Balrog actually killed him, though it was mutually assured destruction, and Sauron is surely more powerful than a Balrog.

3. I definitely like the fact that Gandalf is someone whose main power is good counsel and lifting up the hearts of the foes of darkness, rather than just a superhero.

4. However, there is ample evidence in the books that he wielded a lot of magical might, even though Tolkien generally described it obliquely.

5. Why on Arda did he surrender so meekly to Saruman, then? Though I hate that scene of them fighting in the movie, wouldn't it have been logical for him to at least attempt to fry Saruman with his fire/lightning/storm magic, rather than just pulling a long face and going up to the rooftop to be locked up there? This is something that's bugged me about the books since I was a tiny guy and first read them so many decades ago.

6. Yes, I know I'm weird and am waaaay overthinking this.

7. Of course, Tolkien could have fixed it easily by inserting something like this in Gandalf's explanation:

Spoiler: Bulldog Psion's solution:

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"I put forth my power and the chamber was blasted with fire and lightning. But Saruman was still the White, and stronger than the Grey. I hurt him, I think; yet he swept aside my veils of fire and laid his power upon me, so that I could move no limb, and my tongue clave to the roof of my mouth. Then he put his binding upon me, so that I could work no sorcery, and had me cast onto the high roof of Orthanc...."

Something like that would have made his almost casual mastering of Saruman's will during the parlay even more impressive. IMO, of course.

[Yora]

Why do people generally love good villains more than most heroes? Because good villains do things and most heroes have things happen to them.

And in The Lord of the Rings (as well as The Hobbit), Gandalf is constantly russhing from one place to another to talk to important people and get things organized. Now almost all he does is to talk people and convince them do to something, but that's actually a lot more direct action he takes that pretty much everyone else in the story. Frodo and Sam go to Mount Doom while avoiding contact with anyone if in any way possible (step 1), and then have to drop the ring (step 2). Merry and Pippin spend the entire story following behind other people without really knowing what's going on, except for one moment where they manage with great effort to convince Treebeard to do something. Legolas and Gimli are Aragorns sidekicks who, as far as I can remember, don't make any participation in planning and descision making. Aragorn does some things, but generally plays a second fidle in Gandalfs plans, from what I can remember. But Gandalf is really the one who is running the whole show.

[Zevox]

See, I always looked on gandalf as being the wise old sage with some minor powers. This is because I hadnt heard of the similarion for years after reading the initial stories. His big badass moment happens off screen, and lets face it, there are a lot of non angelic characters throughout fiction that have badass moments off screen. Bruenor battlehammer has a near identical match when he solos a fricking dragon named shimmergloom off camera, and he doesnt have a damn god bring him back to life. He trundles his way on through an underground enemy held fortress and makes his own way out. He isnt an angel, he isnt a super wizard, he is a damn dwarf with a couple magic items and is like a honey badger in that he flat out doesnt give a **** that a dwarf cant solo a dragon. He does it anyway.

Digression aside, other than that, his main powers include lighting pine cones on fire, using his staff as a flashlight, and keeping trolls arguing till they turn to stone in the daylight. So I never really bought into the godlike gandalf thing.

Even if you ignore anything beyond The Hobbit and LotR, Gandalf does fry several goblins with a lightning bolt at one point in the former (probably the most D&D-esque thing he ever does), and his display when rescuing the Dwarves and Bilbo from the goblins of the Misty Mountains is pretty spectacular. He just rarely does things like that because he doesn't want to let on how powerful he is - if memory serves there's mention in LotR that he makes it a rule that the Hobbits in particular only get to see his parlor tricks.

"Servant of the Secret Fire" almost certainly refers to his possession of Narya, the Ring of Fire.

No, it's definitely the Flame Imperishable. There's no sense in which Gandalf is a servant of his ring, but as an Ainu who hadn't joined Morgoth, he is a servant of Eru.

But instead of the secret fire he could only create the "flame of Udun" -- powerful and destructive, yes, but it could not give life.

I'm pretty certain "flame of Udun" is a reference to the Balrog's origins. Udun was another name for Utumno, Morgoth's first great fortress, where presumably the Balrogs were first made, since they already existed when he returned from captivity after its fall. So the Balrog, as a being of fire, is itself the "flame of Udun."

[Traab]

I had forgotten about the goblin thing. Probably because This is the only part of that whole set of scenes I ever remember.

[Bulldog Psion]

Even if you ignore anything beyond The Hobbit and LotR, Gandalf does fry several goblins with a lightning bolt at one point in the former (probably the most D&D-esque thing he ever does), and his display when rescuing the Dwarves and Bilbo from the goblins of the Misty Mountains is pretty spectacular. He just rarely does things like that because he doesn't want to let on how powerful he is - if memory serves there's mention in LotR that he makes it a rule that the Hobbits in particular only get to see his parlor tricks.

^ Take a look at my post above for a list, with quotes, of Gandalf using a lot more power than using his staff as a flashlight or lighting pinecones on fire.

[The Glyphstone]

I was always under the impression Gandalf went to Saruman because he was still hoping to sway him back to the side of Good.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In my opinion, Gandalf is fairly impressive and powerful, considering who he is and what he has done. However, he is certainly not as powerful as some people claim, especially when working as Gandalf and not Olorin.

[factotum]

5. Why on Arda did he surrender so meekly to Saruman, then?

Saruman's main power is in commanding others to do his bidding, why would you assume Gandalf would not also be susceptible to that power at that time? He obviously isn't still susceptible to it when they meet Saruman after the Ents destroy Isengard, but then, Saruman is defeated and reduced in power at that point and Gandalf has been reborn after fighting the Balrog, so the situation is entirely different.

[Bulldog Psion]

Saruman's main power is in commanding others to do his bidding, why would you assume Gandalf would not also be susceptible to that power at that time? He obviously isn't still susceptible to it when they meet Saruman after the Ents destroy Isengard, but then, Saruman is defeated and reduced in power at that point and Gandalf has been reborn after fighting the Balrog, so the situation is entirely different.

Yes, I suppose that it can be interpreted as his being under the mental domination of Saruman. Doesn't matter if he has all that fire, lightning, etc. at his command if he lacks the will to use it.

[Aotrs Commander]

As I recall, though, don't we learn about what happened by Gandalf retelling it in the books, rather than being shown? It is VERY possible he just skipped over retelling the part about where he got his arse kicked (a Wizard has a reputation to maintain after all...!) or didn't think it was important to the Fellowship (or the council...? To my shame I've not read LotR in a while) needed to hear that part. (Especially is if was some kind of will-verses-will conflict hard to explain or something, which given the way magic works in Middle-Earth is also a possibility.)

[TheThan]

I always thought that Gandalf represented the supernatural aid aspect of the hero’s Journey. You know the wise old sage that spouts wisdom and advice and occasionally gets the hero out of a tough jam.

[hamishspence]

It is VERY possible he just skipped over retelling the part about where he got his arse kicked (a Wizard has a reputation to maintain after all...!) or didn't think it was important to the Fellowship (or the council...? To my shame I've not read LotR in a while) needed to hear that part.

The Council. He tells of the conversation in which Saruman revealed himself to be a traitor, and of how it ends:

"You were head of the Council, but you have unmasked yourself at last. Well, the choices are, it seems, to submit to Sauron, or to yourself. I will take neither. Have you others to offer?"
He was cold now and perilous. "Yes," he said. "I did not expect you to show wisdom, even in your own behalf; but I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, and so saving yourself much trouble and pain. The third choice is to stay here, until the end."
"Until what end?"
"Until you reveal to me where the One may be found. I may find means to persuade you. Or until it is found in your despite, and the Ruler has time to turn to lighter matters: to devise, say, a fitting reward for the hindrance and insolence of Gandalf the Grey."
"That may not prove to be one of the lighter matters," said I. He laughed at me, for my words were empty, and he knew it.
They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away.

The underlined part seems like it could be a hint that Gandalf knew that violence at this point was pointless, so he didn't try.

However, one could also go with the movie approach (which even includes the line "I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly") of having a fight at this point.

[Aotrs Commander]

The underlined part seems like it could be a hint that Gandalf knew that violence at this point was pointless, so he didn't try.

Right. Thank you.

That could be taken as Gandalf realising that fighting was not worth the risk (either because Saruman was more powerful than him - which I think is stated, him being the head of the order - or the gap is close enough it would have been touch-and-go and pyhrric even if he won), because he figured he'd be able to escape (as he did) and didn't want to risk a fight that might mean he might be more injured (or lose access to his staff or Narya) and cripple his remaining power. Picking your battles and all that. It may have been that they both knew knew that Saruman could easily do to Gandalf the whole "your staff is broken" thing Gandalf the While did to Saruman later, if things fell to violence.

[VincentTakeda]

Why all the Gandalf love?

Maybe its just because he's like... a nice guy... He cares, man...

[Rockphed]

See, I always looked on gandalf as being the wise old sage with some minor powers. This is because I hadnt heard of the similarion for years after reading the initial stories. His big badass moment happens off screen, and lets face it, there are a lot of non angelic characters throughout fiction that have badass moments off screen.

Here I thought Gandalf's big moment was when he showed up at Helm's Deep with an army to relieve the weary defenders. Of course he shows up to find the king and Aragorn leading a charge that is driving Saruman's army before it, but I don't think the charge would have held long enough to completely route the orcs without the reinforcements. Alternatively, his big moment is calling Saruman to heel and snapping his staff with his voice.

And while I understand where people get the "Gandalf died" idea, I'm not sure he died from his wounds in destroying the Balrog. I think his death was more of a "well, I'm stuck up here and I'm tired. I'll just lay down in this nice soft snow and sleep a bit." He woke up to a giant eagle pecking his back and asking, "Are you dead? Can I eat you?"