Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?

[hamishspence]

I don't recall reading that in Unfinished Tales - but I do recall reading it elsewhere. Maybe it was in his Letters, or one of the History of Middle Earth books?

[Shadow of the Sun]

I don't recall reading that in Unfinished Tales - but I do recall reading it elsewhere. Maybe it was in his Letters, or one of the History of Middle Earth books?

Lemme go look- I have the Kindle version, so the page numbers are a bit borked.

Ah, you're right. It's in the letter to Milton Waldman by JRR Tolkien that is provided in the preface of the edition of the Silmarillion I have.

[factotum]

I'm pretty sure that's already proven near the beginning of Fellowship--Frodo tries to throw the Ring into the fire, but finds he's put it back in his pocket. Gandalf says at that point, "You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not 'make' you--except by force, which would break your mind.".

That does raise a question, though: surely Gandalf knew his whole plan was a bust from the start? If Frodo couldn't will himself to throw the Ring into a fire which had already shown itself incapable of even *heating* it, much less damaging it, what chance he would be able to do so when standing at the Cracks of Doom?

[Eldan]

He planned on being there himself, though, along with the rest of the Fellowship, to urge Frodo on. Or, if they had to, take the ring by force somehow. Perhaps he hoped that Frodo could carry the ring to the cracks, then someone else could take it for a few seconds to throw it.

[Traab]

I'm pretty sure that's already proven near the beginning of Fellowship--Frodo tries to throw the Ring into the fire, but finds he's put it back in his pocket. Gandalf says at that point, "You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not 'make' you--except by force, which would break your mind.".

That does raise a question, though: surely Gandalf knew his whole plan was a bust from the start? If Frodo couldn't will himself to throw the Ring into a fire which had already shown itself incapable of even *heating* it, much less damaging it, what chance he would be able to do so when standing at the Cracks of Doom?

Well Frodo WAS able to bring himself to throw it into the fireplace in the end. Perhaps he thought that Frodo would be less likely to be taken in by the ring than anyone else. And even if he knew frodo couldnt throw it in, he also likely knew that frodo was the most likely being to be able to hold the ring without being taken over by it. Or, if he was, then he wouldnt be a threat someone like gandalf or galadriel would have been.

[pendell]

Not so in the book. In the book, he tries to throw it into the fire but finds that, instead, he had put it back in his pocket.

He couldn't even throw the ring in the fire in bag end. So clearly he's more likely to do it in Mordor after minimum weeks or months of hardship and travel, with the ring gnawing at his will all the while. Clearly a plan worthy of a brilliant master mind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[BannedInSchool]

Or, if he was, then he wouldnt be a threat someone like gandalf or galadriel would have been.

"The Ring is mine!"
*push*
"We'll say he slipped."
"Fine by me. I couldn't take his moping any more anyway."

[pendell]

"The Ring is mine!"
*push*
"We'll say he slipped."
"Fine by me. I couldn't take his moping any more anyway."

Pretty much. If Frodo wasn't able to throw the ring in unassisted the next plan would be to ... assist, up to and including throwing Frodo in with the Ring.

How fortunate for storybook tales that the author writes in creepies like gollum to do the dirty work the heroes won't do for themselves. It saves them having to make hard decisions and tarnish their oh-so-pearly white image.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

Not so in the book. In the book, he tries to throw it into the fire but finds that, instead, he had put it back in his pocket.

He couldn't even throw the ring in the fire in bag end. So clearly he's more likely to do it in Mordor after minimum weeks or months of hardship and travel, with the ring gnawing at his will all the while. Clearly a plan worthy of a brilliant master mind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well then how did they get to see the writing on the ring if frodo couldnt bring himself to do it? I could have sworn that happened in the book. But even so, the rest of my point still stands. He is inherently less corruptible than a representative of the other races, and is a far lesser threat if he DOES try to claim it.

[Divayth Fyr]

Well then how did they get to see the writing on the ring if frodo couldnt bring himself to do it? I could have sworn that happened in the book.

Gandalf did it. While the feats that were the basis for this thread never happened, he gets credit for throwing the ring into the fireplace ;)

[hamishspence]

Well then how did they get to see the writing on the ring if frodo couldnt bring himself to do it? I could have sworn that happened in the book. But even so, the rest of my point still stands. He is inherently less corruptible than a representative of the other races, and is a far lesser threat if he DOES try to claim it.

Frodo gives it to Gandalf first (I figure Gandalf knows Frodo isn't giving him custody of the Ring - so it can't corrupt him in that moment)

Spoiler

Show

"You do not know the real peril yet; but you shall. I was not sure of it myself when I was last here; but the time has come to speak. Give me the ring for a moment."

Frodo took it from his breeches-pocket, where it was clasped to a chain that hung from his belt. He unfastened it and handed it slowly to the wizard. It felt suddenly very heavy, as if either it or Frodo himself was in some way reluctant for Gandalf to touch it.

Gandalf held it up. It looked to be made of pure and solid gold. "Can you see any markings on it?" he asked.

"No," said Frodo. "There are none. It is quite plain, and it never shows a scratch or sign of wear."

"Well then, look!" To Frodo's astonishment and distress the wizard threw it suddenly into the middle of a glowing corner of the fire. Frodo gave a cry and groped for the tongs; but Gandalf held him back.

"Wait!" he said in a commanding voice, giving Frodo a quick look from under his bristling brows.

No apparent change came over the ring. After a while Gandalf got up, closed the shutters outside the window, and drew the curtains. The room became dark and silent, though the clack of Sam's shears, now nearer to the windows, could still be heard faintly from the garden. For a moment the wizard stood looking at the fire; then he stooped and removed the ring to the hearth with the tongs, and at once picked it up. Frodo gasped.

"It is quite cool," said Gandalf. "Take it!" Frodo received it on his shrinking palm: it seemed to have become thicker and heavier than ever.

"Hold it up!" said Gandalf. "And look closely!"

[Traab]

Ah there we go. I knew it happened somehow. Though that was interesting. Its entirely possible that Gandalf intended to get Frodo to give him the ring at the crack of mt doom so HE could chuck it. A brief moment of ownership he should have enough will to reject its whisper. Heh, I can almost see it now, a sort of callback to the fireplace where he takes the ring from frodo, hurls it into the volcano without hesitating, then holds back frodo instead telling him to watch as it melts into slag. "That was quite cool, wasnt it?"

[pendell]

Heh, I can almost see it now, a sort of callback to the fireplace where he takes the ring from frodo, hurls it into the volcano without hesitating, then holds back frodo instead telling him to watch as it melts into slag. "That was quite cool, wasnt it?"

It wouldn't have worked that way. Robbing Frodo of the ring for any reason would have pushed his berserk button and probably broken his mind as well. Remember how Frodo reacted to Sam in the tower when Sam asked, politely, to carry the ring for his master.

If Frodo's ring were taken from him by force, even if necessary to save the world, then Frodo would have been a casualty. If he didn't force his friends to kill him on the spot, the psychological damage would have left him a wreck.

...

Come to think of it, that happened anyway. He could never find peace in the world again. But it would have been worse.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

It wouldn't have worked that way. Robbing Frodo of the ring for any reason would have pushed his berserk button and probably broken his mind as well. Remember how Frodo reacted to Sam in the tower when Sam asked, politely, to carry the ring for his master.

If Frodo's ring were taken from him by force, even if necessary to save the world, then Frodo would have been a casualty. If he didn't force his friends to kill him on the spot, the psychological damage would have left him a wreck.

...

Come to think of it, that happened anyway. He could never find peace in the world again. But it would have been worse.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It would have been worse than having the ring taken by force of being bitten off his hand? Lets face it, he was forced to give up the ring in the end and he survived without becoming a drooling wreck. Gandalf could have easily knocked his ass out if frodo went nuts, or otherwise restrained him. Same end effect as gollum and him fighting it out till gollum fell into the lava. Sure frodo might not have been able to forgive gandalf, but im pretty sure white boy would have been able to deal with the loss of his friendship in exchange for saving the damn world.

*EDIT* Assuming of course things went as planned, and the ever strengthening whispers of corruption the ring was letting out didnt break gandalf himself. Lets face it, if that was gandalfs fallback plan all along, then the whispers would have had plenty to work with. "Frodo and I are close enough now, surely? Look at him, he cant hack it. He is falling apart at the seams. Im sure I could resist its call for a few more days till I can throw it in. Im gandalf the white after all, im the big bad chief wizard here! This is MY fate! I should be the one taking care of the ring! The ring should be MINE!"

[pendell]

So far as I can see, the only way to avoid being taken over by the ring would be to kill Frodo and push him, carrying the ring, into the fire. Taking the ring from Frodo .. I suspect that, the minute you take the ring, it takes you.

In any case, I would not bet on even Gandalf being able to get the ring off of Berserk Frodo without killing him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

That was one of the scenes that really annoyed me about the movie--because Jackson & Co had somehow got it into their heads that the Ring was some sort of super-heroin that would adversely affect you as soon as you touched it, they didn't allow Gandalf to touch it in that scene; which meant you had Gandalf, holding a ring he's just pulled from the fire with tongs, saying to Frodo, "It's quite cool.". Yeah, old man, I really believe that one...

[hamishspence]

It would have been worse than having the ring taken by force of being bitten off his hand? Lets face it, he was forced to give up the ring in the end and he survived without becoming a drooling wreck.

It's "forcing Frodo to try and damage/destroy the ring" that Gandalf thinks would break Frodo's mind:

He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket.
Gandalf laughed grimly. 'You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not "make" you - except by force, which would break your mind."

[Traab]

Doesnt gandalf also confess to aragron that the whole thing with frodo was a fools hope anyways? He basically knew it most likely would fail miserably but it had to be tried as it was the only option that didnt end with either sauron ruling the world, or his replacement doing it instead.

[veti]

Doesnt gandalf also confess to aragron that the whole thing with frodo was a fools hope anyways? He basically knew it most likely would fail miserably but it had to be tried as it was the only option that didnt end with either sauron ruling the world, or his replacement doing it instead.

I hadn't thought of it in quite these terms before, but really Gandalf's plan is based in nothing more than faith. He really doesn't know how it could work, or have any coherent plan to make it work, but he insists that everyone proceeds as if there were no doubt about these things. Even to the point of Aragorn's army marching to what should have been certain death at the Black Gate. He expresses something of the sort to Frodo right at the outset, when he talks about Bilbo being"meant" to find the ring.

His plan basically boils down to "if everyone does their very best, then somehow Destiny will step in just in time to paper over the hurling great holes in the plan". And as it turned out, he was right.

I suspect it's an expression both of religious faith, and of the sort of blind hopeless obedience demanded of soldiers in the trenches. But that's just a thought, psychoanalysing Tolkien is above my geek grade.

[Traab]

I hadn't thought of it in quite these terms before, but really Gandalf's plan is based in nothing more than faith. He really doesn't know how it could work, or have any coherent plan to make it work, but he insists that everyone proceeds as if there were no doubt about these things. Even to the point of Aragorn's army marching to what should have been certain death at the Black Gate. He expresses something of the sort to Frodo right at the outset, when he talks about Bilbo being"meant" to find the ring.

His plan basically boils down to "if everyone does their very best, then somehow Destiny will step in just in time to paper over the hurling great holes in the plan". And as it turned out, he was right.

I suspect it's an expression both of religious faith, and of the sort of blind hopeless obedience demanded of soldiers in the trenches. But that's just a thought, psychoanalysing Tolkien is above my geek grade.

Well Gandalf DOES have more reason for religious faith than most. But its like I said before, he also was clear headed enough to realize that this, literally THIS PLAN, and ONLY that version of this plan, had any possibility of true victory. The chances it WOULD work were slim to none, and slim is packing for a long trip away, but every other option would have resulted in either someone powerful claiming the ring and replacing sauron, someone weak claiming it and being brought back to sauron, or even trying to hide the ring would have done nothing but delay at best the end of the world, because ring or not, sauron was ready to move and noone on middle earth could have stopped him.

To put it another way, Gandalf was playing a game of wheel of fortune. There was one tiny little portion that said jackpot. The rest of the wheel says bankrupt. He has no choice but to spin the wheel, and there is only one outcome that will achieve victory. Everything else spells the total loss of everything he has worked for to that point.

[pendell]

Or, in American football terms , this is a Hail Mary play, lobbing the ball as far into the backfield as possible in the hopes that a receiver can get there in time to grab it and pull out a last-minute touchdown.

This kind of willingness to go for the desperate chance, even when it has almost no opportunity for success, must be a survival trait. After all, given that 100% of humans die, why else do we get up in the morning for another go at living?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

Or, in American football terms , this is a Hail Mary play, lobbing the ball as far into the backfield as possible in the hopes that a receiver can get there in time to grab it and pull out a last-minute touchdown.

This kind of willingness to go for the desperate chance, even when it has almost no opportunity for success, must be a survival trait. After all, given that 100% of humans die, why else do we get up in the morning for another go at living?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That works too, the other option is the full court heave ho shot in basketball. Your team is down 91-90, there is a second on the clock and you are about to get tossed the ball. The odds of sinking that shot are miniscule. But you will lose anyways, so there is no reason to NOT try for the slim to none chance. So you grab the ball, hurl it as hard as you can at the tiny little target some distance away, and pray it beats the odds and goes through. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Throwing the shot doesnt cost you anything, if you dont, you lose, if you do and miss, you lose, if you do and land it, you win. Thats what gandalf faced.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Gandalf's plan in The Hobbit (to take out Smaug, that is) also had fairly unlikely odds. I guess that's just the way he operates.

[grolim]

So, if Fortune favors the foolish...let's try something so outlandish she will positively adore me?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Small chance of success, certainty of death was practically Tolkien's motto. I get the feeling he adored that trope, considering how often the Rohirrim seem to hurl themselves into the enemy. "We're boned, but if we do something stupidly suicidal, even the blasted Orcs will have to admit we kicked ass!"

[SiuiS]

While he made the mistake of assuming anyone would be willing to try to destroy the Ring, instead of using it and wielding it against him, he was correct that no-one would have been able to muster the force of will to throw it into Orodruin. It's expressly mentioned in Tolkien's notes (See Unfinished Tales) that no-one in Middle-Earth who'd possessed the ring for any amount of time would have been able to muster the will to harm it- not even Sauron, if he were even inclined to do so.

Not even? You mean especially. Sauron isn't special. Sauron is in fact the greatest example of the ring's corruption. His focus is so much on the ring that he slows his eventual conquest. The ring is his Obssession.

I'm pretty sure that's already proven near the beginning of Fellowship--Frodo tries to throw the Ring into the fire, but finds he's put it back in his pocket. Gandalf says at that point, "You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not 'make' you--except by force, which would break your mind.".

That does raise a question, though: surely Gandalf knew his whole plan was a bust from the start? If Frodo couldn't will himself to throw the Ring into a fire which had already shown itself incapable of even *heating* it, much less damaging it, what chance he would be able to do so when standing at the Cracks of Doom?

Gandalf believed in the providence of the Song.

[turkishproverb]

Not even? You mean especially. Sauron isn't special. Sauron is in fact the greatest example of the ring's corruption. His focus is so much on the ring that he slows his eventual conquest. The ring is his Obssession.



Gandalf believed in the providence of the Song.

Or he'd expected someone to push the little guy in.

[miner3203]

Has anyone else noticed that people make Gandalf out to be a huge badass? It seems like once they find out that the Istari are really Maiar in disguise they lose all sense of perspective.

My inspiration was asking was noticing a thread about The Hobbit stating that it was a shame that Gandalf had to leave Thorin's company before they got to the mountain, because if he was with them he could have easily slain Smaug singlehandedly and ended the quest right there.

According to the Silmarillion, Gandalf probably could have slain Smaug, but not easily. It is very probable that he would have died in the process, something that would be better if it could be avoided. Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black, Mightiest of Dragons, so it wouldn't be ridiculous to suggest that Gandalf could do the same, if he ended up using his full power (which he was instructed not to do by the Valar).

To me this is a ridiculous statement, but I have heard very similar things.

For example, last week my DM stated that Gandalf was a god, and that he had single handedly defeated Sauron in personal combat on three previous occasions. Furthermore that he was only defeated (temporarily) by Durin's Bane because Durin's Bane was the king of all Balrogs and the most powerful of all Morgoth's minions.

Nope. As previously stated, that was Gothmog, who was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain in the Battle of Gondolin

My college roommate also insisted that Gandalf was an archangel and stated that it was kind of silly that the elves were even included on the White Council as even the weakest Maiar is orders of magnitude above the strongest elf.

The example of Fingolfin and Morgoth, also previously stated, proves this wrong. Also, the fact that the Istari were forbidden to "rule the inhabitants of Middle-Earth by force or fear" probably put limits on how many executive decisions they could make

I frequently see statements on the internet, including this forum, about how silly it is that the Witch King seemed to be getting the upper hand on Gandalf in the RoTK:EE, or that Gandalf needs Galadriel to save him in BoFA. I also see many statements that Gandalf alone could have ruled the world with the One Ring, and that anyone else, even Saruman, was deluded.

Gandalf was not all-powerful. He could have been one of the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth, yes, but (a) using his true power was forbidden, and (b) even his true power would not be able to defeat Sauron, who was the Lieutenant of Morgoth. Whether he would be able to take down the Witch-King is questionable.

I have also heard people claim that, based on what he says to the Balrog before breaking the bridge, that he is the personal servant (or perhaps even incarnation) of Illuvatar and is thus stronger than even the Valar.

"I am a servant of the Secret Fire" - simply a reference to the fact that he, among others, serves the Valar
"Wielder of the Flame of Anor" - referencing the powers he has as a servant of the Valar, or the fact that he carries the Ring of Fire
"The dark fire will not avail you here, flame of Udun" - I can't figure out how this could suggest that Gandalf has immense power
"Go back to the Shadow" - See above
"You cannot pass!" or "YOU! SHALL NOT! PASS!" - epic, yes, but hardly more than a battle-cry

Where are people getting this overblown impression of Gandalf? The only thing I can figure is that they are taking his line of dialogue to one of the Hobbits about being the most dangerous person they are ever likely to meet too literally, or that they hold him in a sort of religious awe due to his "angelic" nature.

But I really don't see this backed up by either the books or the films. The Silmarillion certainly shows elves and even men who hold their own against or defeat Maiar, and sometimes even Valar, and Gandalf certainly faces his share of challenges and obstacles, including physical combat against mortals, where he seems to be outmatched, stumped, or put in danger.

Now don't get me wrong, Gandalf is certainly a major player in Middle Earth, and imo he easily makes the top 10 in both power and influence, and could even be argued to be in the top three or five, but that is not clear cut, and I would never say that he is the most powerful being in the world.

What do you think? Do you hold Gandalf in such high regard? If so why?

While Gandalf is certainly a power player, he is not the all-powerful god some make him out to be. If I had to rank him, I would put the list like this:

1. Eru Iluvatar
2. Morgoth Bauglir
3. Manwe Sulimo
4. The Valar
5. The Maiar at full power
6. Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Beren, and other powerful warriors - also most Balrogs and Dragons
7. Elrond, Gil-galad, Elendil, and other Second/Third age warriors
8. The Istari in their physical Third Age forms. They were excellent advisers, strategists, negotiators, leaders, and sages, and were deadly in combat, but lacked the power to directly combat the more powerful beings in Middle-Earth at the time.

[Traab]

Not even? You mean especially. Sauron isn't special. Sauron is in fact the greatest example of the ring's corruption. His focus is so much on the ring that he slows his eventual conquest. The ring is his Obssession.



Gandalf believed in the providence of the Song.

He was right to be obsessed with the ring, there were a handful of beings in middle earth that, had they gotten the ring, would have supplanted him with its power. Yes they in turn would have been corrupted, but that wouldnt have helped sauron.

[hamishspence]

Gandalf was not all-powerful. He could have been one of the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth, yes, but (a) using his true power was forbidden, and (b) even his true power would not be able to defeat Sauron, who was the Lieutenant of Morgoth.

In Unfinished Tales, there's an outline of a meeting of the Valar where they're discussing who they're going to send to Middle Earth to deal with Sauron. It's said that those they send "must be peers of Sauron" but also that they may not use that level of power.

Olorin AKA Gandalf, is initially reluctant to go - saying he fears Sauron. The Valar say that's all the more reason why he should go.