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2015-01-23, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2015-01-23, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
In Tolkien's work, Evil by its very nature diminishes. Mairon was more powerful, in some ways, than Sauron. Though he became more "powerful" in the sense that he could exert his influence on others more, he became lesser and lesser the more he did so. Power in Middle Earth is transitory, and by using power Sauron became weaker over time. Same with Balrogs. Same with Morgoth.
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2015-01-28, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Loving the direct quotes, that takes me back...
Yeah I do love it when folks talk about how "low magic" and "gritty" LotR was, and how Gandalf was like 5th-level at most. Then I just point to the first two quotes and say "no, badass god-wizards have been part of the genre since its codification and before."
As for Saruman beating him - yeah, I don't think it was as dramatic as the movie makes it out to be, I think Saruman simply turned his magic off (either by dominating him, some form of disjunction/AMF or something else.) As head of the Order he must have some way of bringing renegades in line, by force if necessary.
"They took me" seems to imply Saruman waved his hand and brought in some Uruks who were waiting outside to manhandle the poor geezer up to the roof, further lending credence to the "shut off my magic" theory. Though Gandalf's trick to escape by calling the Eagles was somehow overlooked, or not magical enough to be affected.Last edited by Psyren; 2015-01-28 at 09:46 AM.
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2015-01-28, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
I don't think it's necessarily that Saruman could turn off Gandalf's power, rather that due to the nature of his mission (to which he was faithful) he was unable to specifically resist against Saruman. There's a line from the Silmarillion that applies here, even if it may not be exactly be correct: "Those that represent authority cannot themselves rebel."
Also, if Saruman had used Uruks to subdue Gandalf, he'd have reported it to the Council of Elrond.i am going to make it through this year
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i am going to make it though this year
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2015-01-28, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Gandalf didn't call the Eagles. He had earlier told Radagast to have any bird or beast that had tiding to take them to Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard. Gwaihir came doing just that; reporting that the Nine were abroad and Gollum had escaped from the Elves of Mirkwood.
It's also worth noting that Orthanc is itself a place of significant power. The Ents are completely unable to damage it, and it's clear that Saruman is more or less safe from the outside while within it. Gandalf suggests that Saruman may be able to imprison a Nazgul using the power of Orthanc as well.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2015-01-30, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Point, but the fact still remains that Gandalf said "they took me" - so unless Saruman and Wormtongue hauled him up to the roof themselves I don't know who else he could have meant. (Maybe they were cloaked and hooded? And he didn't realize Saruman was breeding them?)
Yeah, the nullification could have come from the tower itself, I don't deny that. The point is that a guy who could take on the Nine (briefly) and live to tell the tale yet didn't even have a chance against Saruman must have had something working against him.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-01-30, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Gandalf commented on the orcs and wolves being in Saruman's service:
They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away. I looked on it and saw that, whereas it had once been green and fair, it was now filled with pits and forges. Wolves and orcs were housed in Isengard, for Saruman was mustering a great force on his own account, in rivalry of Sauron and not in his service yet. Over all his works a dark smoke hung and wrapped itself about the sides of Orthanc. I stood alone on an island in the clouds; and I had no chance of escape, and my days were bitter. I was pierced with cold, and I had but little room in which to pace to and fro, brooding on the coming of the Riders to the North.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2015-01-30, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Huh. You know, I never realized how tall Orthanc must be. If those thousands of steps are literal... perhaps a foot per step (or half a foot, if the stairs are rather flat), that makes these stairs probably a good Empire State Building tall.
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2015-01-30, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Wikipedia says "more than 500 feet tall" but it isn't sourced.
EDIT: After a quick search, it appears to be from The Road To Isengard chapter of The Two Towers:
"A peak and isle of rock it was, black and gleaming hard: four mighty piers of many-sided stone were welded into one, but near the summit they opened into gaping horns, their pinnacles sharp as the points of spears, keen-edged as knives. Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five hundred feet above the plain. This was Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, the name of which had (by design or chance) a twofold meaning; for in the Elvish speech orthanc signifies Mount Fang, but in the language of the Mark of old the Cunning Mind."Last edited by hamishspence; 2015-01-30 at 10:45 AM.
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2015-01-30, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Well, Orthanc was made by the Numenoreans, who were taught by the Eldar of Tol Eressea and were just generally 'more awesome' than other humans (for example, us).
So they knew how to manufacture a material that could take the strain, etc etc. Even the Ents couldn't begin to break it- instead, they were closer to breaking themselves.i am going to make it through this year
if it kills me
i am going to make it though this year
if it kills me
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2015-01-30, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
How many is "many" I wonder?
Discworld trolls count "one, two, three, many" so if you use that as precedent, then it could be as low as 4.
Still, 4000 steps to rise only 500 feet would mean 8 steps for a rise of only 12 inches - closer to a ramp than to a staircase.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2015-01-30, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
And that's only the stairs to get to that platform. Presumably, there's more rooms below it.
So, probably not literal, then.Resident Vancian Apologist
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2015-01-30, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
I thought the "narrow stair" ran around the outside of the tower - with Gandalf being unable to go down the inside because there's no way in, from the platform.
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2015-01-30, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
But that flips back around; it's only because of that obsession that this is an issue. Sauron's wickedness undid him.
I'm of the opinion that if God tells Guardian Angel Johnny "no full power for you", then it's actually harmful to discussion to keep bringing up that full power G.A. Johnny is literally forbidden from touching by divine mandate. It's a technicality that isn't relevant and only serves to dilute discussion and cause the very same misunderstandings that started this thread.
Anyway. Peers doesn't mean equal, necessarily. It means similar grouping. The silmarillion made it clear that there were different levels of power within those groupings, even some lower magnitude spirits who could compete with (or trifle with, if you prefer) the upper magnitude.
Although I couldn't say for certain. Only morgoth got any reference about personal power that I remember clearly.
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2015-01-30, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Yes his wickedness was his undoing, I just wanted to point out that his fears were justifiable. There were a number of beings out there capable of using the ring against him. And considering he was right to believe noone would actually intentionally destroy the ring, that not even entering his head was at least somewhat forgivable. It was pure luck the ring was destroyed instead of claimed by frodo or gollum (or even sam if it came down to it) and then swiftly returned to its true master because none of them have the power to resist its corruption or use it properly.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2015-01-30, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
I thought the exterior of Orthanc was described as smooth and unmarked for the entire height of the tower? I certainly never recall any mention of stairs on the outside, and since the tower was built as a defensive structure, having an external staircase would be a terrible idea--it just provides nice targets for archers when you want to send someone up to see what's happening!
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2015-02-03, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-02-03, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
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2015-02-03, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Thats because nobody COULD bring themselves to destroy it. To take the ring is to let it take you in turn. Its entirely possible that if sam frodo and gollum all died at the edge of mt doom and gandalf flew in on an eagle to finish the job, that he wouldnt be able to bring himself to pick up the ring and throw it over the edge. By all measures the plan was a total failure with no hope for victory. 999 times out of 1000 the story would have ended with the nazgul flying to mt doom, picking up the ring from where it fell and bringing it back to his master. Or sauron absolutely crushing frodo or whoever claimed the ring and forcing him to walk all the way from mt doom to his tower to hand it over in person and be tortured for an eternity for daring to challenge him. This wasnt a brilliant plan, it was an unimaginably stupid plan that only worked through the rawest amount of pure luck ever seen.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2015-02-03, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
So his assumptions, in order, were:
1) Someone strong enough to use the ring will end up supplanting me, so those are the biggest threat and the target of my armies. (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel etc.)
2) Someone too weak to use the ring will end up discovered by me eventually and crushed, letting me retrieve it.
3) Anyone from groups 1 or 2 who actually makes it to Mount Doom will not be able to go through with it.
The glaring flaw in his assumptions, which I hope is also obvious to you, is that he didn't anticipate that they'd send more than one person in group 2, thus nullifying assumption 3. If the ring can only corrupt one person (i.e. the guy carrying or wearing it), and said person is too weak to use it offensively, all it takes is for their companion to give them a push once they're at the edge. Even if Gollum wasn't there, Sam likely would have tackled Frodo and they'd both go over. Hinging his entire safety on "no companions" is a ridiculous risk.
It was not the good guys who got "the rawest amount of pure luck" - it was Sauron himself. Elrond could have shoved Isildur and prevented all of this from happening had he been willing and fast enough. That glaring flaw with the ring - that it can only corrupt one person at a time - that is what could have proved to be his undoing back then, and ended up sealing the deal in LotR.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-02-03, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
I think the isildur and elrond thing is movie only. But aside from that, first off, only the freaking hobbits showed any real resistance to the blandishments of the ring. Did sauron even know hobbits were a race that existed before his people tortured gollum? Had anyone else other than sam been with frodo, they would have bashed him over the head long ago and taken the ring themselves. Even with sam there, I really dont see sam hurling his beloved mister frodo into lava to destroy the ring. Personal feeling aside, the ring works on tempting you, and whispering to sam that there is another way would have likely brought the whole house of cards down.
The ring DOESNT just corrupt one person at a time. During the fellowship it was poking at frodo, boromir AND aragorn at various points. It not only corrupts the one wearing it, it whispers to everyone around it to come and claim it themselves. You can see it happen during the meeting at rivendell when they start fighting over what to do with the ring. It nearly turns into a blood bath because of the ring whispering to everyone, inflaming old hatreds, inspiring new ones, poking at the greed and lust for power and distrust of everyone there. The same thing happened when smeagol and his friend found the ring themselves, they fought to the death over it. And the closer they get to mordor, the stronger the whispers become."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2015-02-03, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
The book version:
'Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.
‘”This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother,” he said; and therefore whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it. But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the North Isildur’s Bane. Yet death maybe was better than what else might have befallen him.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2015-02-03, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
hamish beat me to it here.
His torture of Gollum happened long before the Fellowship was formed, so this too points to a colossal stupidity on Sauron's part specifically. He should have taken one look at that thing, said "jesus, you had my ring how long? And you' didn't bring it to me or get yourself killed in all that time? You're clearly a dangerous people!"
Again, it's just abject failure to know his enemy.
Shoving him, no - but going over the edge with him to save the world, tears in his eyes, sacrificing both of them - I could totally see Sam doing that.
Sure, but the guy carrying/wearing it gets the brunt. Otherwise Sam and Elrond would also be "Man, you're so right, we should totally keep this thing and not go anywhere near the fire." And Boromir did fight it off, while the others (who had been around it just as long as he had) didn't even notice. If it can't corrupt bystanders equally to the guy carrying it, and doesn't help the guy carrying it fight off said bystanders, that's a critical design flaw.Last edited by Psyren; 2015-02-03 at 02:28 PM.
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2015-02-03, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Elrond is an elf, by nature he is more resistant to the ring and its corruptive power than humans are. Not totally immune or anything, but more resistant than a human by far. I never claimed it had an equal amount of temptation and control over everyone nearby, I simply pointed out that yes, it DOES effect those nearby it. Some are just better able to resist it than others, such as one of the freaking most powerful elves currently in middle earth. Or a hobbit like sam that has no real desires the ring can twist towards its control beyond "turning the world into a garden" or whatever it tried on him. He loved his mister frodo way more than any personal ambition he had, so he was able to resist claiming it, however briefly. As for boromir fighting it off, he was getting sucked in at the council, got sucked in harder on the march, and tried to take it from frodo by force, only tripping and whacking his head after losing sight of frodo startled him out of the frenzy the ring pushed him into. Had they all stayed together past that point its likely boromir would have gone utterly insane.
Also, the whole thing with isildur. The elves knew the ring needed to be destroyed. They KNEW how freaking important it was to destroy it, and yet aside from saying, "Dude, you really should destroy that, its hella dangerous." They let him keep it. Now, its possible they decided honestly it wasnt worth committing an act of war on humans right at the end of the war against mordor, but its also possible the rings effect was subtly pushing them to let it go. To not force the issue. And after the ring abandoned isildur, it was found by two proto hobbits who proceeded to fight to the death over the ring. While gollum shows an amazing capacity for not turning into a freaking wraith, that wasnt the best sign of the ring not having a terrifying effect on hobbits as well, considering it forced two friends to try and murder each other to keep it. That was within seconds of it being discovered, not a long term issue.
Honestly the ring seems to have a wildly fluctuating effect on everyone around it. It doesnt seem to endlessly whisper to the fellowship, it seems to act at specific times for the best effect possible. Such as when the ring bearer is vulnerable. Or when a decision is being made on who will have the ring and what is to be done with it. Or at moments of weakness and grave danger, such as when the ringwraiths are near and frodo has to fight to keep from putting on the ring."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2015-02-03, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Originally Posted by JRR Tolkien
And after the ring abandoned isildur, it was found by two proto hobbits who proceeded to fight to the death over the ring. While gollum shows an amazing capacity for not turning into a freaking wraith, that wasnt the best sign of the ring not having a terrifying effect on hobbits as well, considering it forced two friends to try and murder each other to keep it. That was within seconds of it being discovered, not a long term issue.
Honestly the ring seems to have a wildly fluctuating effect on everyone around it.Last edited by Ninjadeadbeard; 2015-02-03 at 03:34 PM.
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2015-02-03, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-02-03, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
I don't remember from the book, but I doubt it happened like the movie, with the two kings standing alone at the cracks. There would probably have been bodyguards around and armies outside. "I pushed your king into a volcano because he was greedy" wouldn't come across all that well.
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2015-02-03, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
Meh, they're elves - they could couch it in so much flowery language that the Men wouldn't even realize what happened
But in all seriousness, that was another golden opportunity the ring squandered. Two massive armies that barely trust each other, the head of one got his hands on the macguffin first - any evil artifact worth its salt would have had them spilling each other's blood within minutes, before getting lost in the chaos. Instead, it didn't seem to have any effect on Elrond at all, and only his own apathy/stupidity in the face of Isildur's derp gave Sauron a second chance at all.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-02-03, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
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2015-02-03, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Why all the Gandalf love?
He does indeed:
"I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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