Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

[Quild]

On another subject, it seems Bozzok had four or more levels of Rogue than Haley, since he was able to flank her. That would put him in the 19th to 20th level (depending on how much he progressed since their battle in Greysky City).

In that battle, we see Haley and Belkar give him some hurts before the freezing attack.

That said, Crystal only needed 2 slams, 1 dagger strike and another (possibly critical) slam to kill him.

That strikes me (no pun intended... ok, maybe some pun intended) as a sign that either she has a pretty high STR, he has a pretty low CON, or a combination of both.

He took more than that:
Slam attack
An attack with the +4 knife
Thrown object (broken knife)
Slam attack with the two fists, which is probably a full attack (2 slam attacks)
Another slam attack (looks like a critical hit)

[D.One]

He took more than that:
Slam attack
An attack with the +4 knife
Thrown object (broken knife)
Slam attack with the two fists, which is probably a full attack (2 slam attacks)
Another slam attack (looks like a critical hit)

With those attacks, assuming they hit for 2d8+5 (flesh golem slam), 1d4+9 (+4 knife with 21 flesh golem STR), 1d4+5 (thrown broken knife), 4d8+10 (two flesh golem slams) and [2d8+5]x2 (critical slam), we have a maximum damage output of 127 points of damage.

Assuming Bozzok at 19th level rogue, and thus with a minimum hp per hit dice of 24 hp, assuming no overkill (previous to the "strike until you polymorph into a ooze" moment) so that he dies at -10 hp, he must have a CON modifier of at most +4 to have died.

I know that's not that detailed info, but a maximum CON of 19 is more detailed than what we have been able to nail for some of the main characters.

[Quild]

With those attacks, assuming they hit for 2d8+5 (flesh golem slam), 1d4+9 (+4 knife with 21 flesh golem STR), 1d4+5 (thrown broken knife), 4d8+10 (two flesh golem slams) and [2d8+5]x2 (critical slam), we have a maximum damage output of 127 points of damage.

Assuming Bozzok at 19th level rogue, and thus with a minimum hp per hit dice of 24 hp, assuming no overkill (previous to the "strike until you polymorph into a ooze" moment) so that he dies at -10 hp, he must have a CON modifier of at most +4 to have died.

I know that's not that detailed info, but a maximum CON of 19 is more detailed than what we have been able to nail for some of the main characters.

Also someone mentionned that there might be one hit or two during the switch to the girls. Wounds on his left cheek and arm may indeed not come from the hit in the back (but there again they could come from it because of lightning damages).


Also min-maxing has it's usefulness, but he we want to check if Bozzock went down to easily, we could also use averages here:
Level 19 rogue without CON modifier has an average HP of 69.
The average damage from what you calculated is 89 damages.
So even if Bozzock has 12-13 CON and did not take other hits and Crystal has damages of a regular golem (no additional damage from the lightning effects and the skills Bozzock wanted to preserve), he's far from being down from minimum HP while maximal damages.

If he has 14-15 CON, let's just assume we missed one or two hits (average 14 damage per hit) and be done with hit.
16-17 CON? We definitely missed those two hits or Crystal deals slightly more base damage than that.
18-19 CON? We missed the hits AND Crystal deals more than that.
20-21 CON? All of that AND Crystal rolled high


Since Crystal is not SRD here, the only surprising thing here is that Haley did survive. But not sky-high surprising.

[Quartz]

Speaking of Bozzok, we see him fighting with a two-handed sword. The sword could be a bastard sword but I don't recall him ever using it one-handed. If Bozzok has no levels in Fighter (or similar) then we can put him down for the 'Martial Weapon Proficiency: 2H sword' feat.

[Quartz]

Since Crystal is not SRD here, the only surprising thing here is that Haley did survive. But not sky-high surprising.

Haley may have used some healing off-panel.

[Cizak]

Speaking of Bozzok, we see him fighting with a two-handed sword. The sword could be a bastard sword but I don't recall him ever using it one-handed. If Bozzok has no levels in Fighter (or similar) then we can put him down for the 'Martial Weapon Proficiency: 2H sword' feat.

Here we see Bozzok use a sword both one handed and two handed. Here he confirms it's a bastard sword.

[Quild]

Haley may have used some healing off-panel.

Looking at wounds she more likely took damages off-panel than healed. None of her wounds did heal.

She takes quite a beat up in #978, but really, the total is (based on regular Flesh golem damages) :
Slam attack in #972 : 2d8+5 (7-21)
Some hits between #976 and #977 on both cheeks, left arm, left foot (up to 4 attacks, but we have no Idea what happened here, so 24-84 seems a stretch)
Thrown object (large) in #978 : 1d6+5 (6-11)
Uuuh, spring attack? : 2d8+5 (7-21)
Slam attack : 2d8+5 (7-21)
Strangle Hold : no damages

That's 51-158 damages with an average of 106.5 damages. Probably at least 1d6 electricity damage to add for the last slam attack.

Haley has an average of 58,5 HP without CON (and a range of 21-96 HP without CON) and each +1 CON modifier adds 16 HP.
I'm not fond of including four slam attachs between #976 and #977 and we probably can reduce some damages here to explain those wounds.

So really, Haley certainly wasn't far from unconsciousness, but her survival is all right and so is Bozzock's death.

[Kurald Galain]

After #980, Crystal's +4 blade can definitely be removed from Haley's inventory. I don't think mending is fixing that.

Indeed. Done.

If I may suggest this for Ian Starshine:

Very nice. He's a family member so he qualifies (and I'm confident he'll show up again at some point). Does anyone have a smily for him?

I'm not sure if there's much use in including Bozzok; he's a pretty infrequent character and unlikely to reappear considering he's dead now.

[Quartz]

Here we see Bozzok use a sword both one handed and two handed. Here he confirms it's a bastard sword.

That's an excellent find.

[D.One]

Here we see Bozzok use a sword both one handed and two handed. Here he confirms it's a bastard sword.

Indeed, excellent find. I know we probably shouldn't include him (since further info on him won't probably come out), but I just noticed the first strip confirms by "word of characters" (panels 10-12) that Bozzok has four (or more) levels in Rogue higher than Haley.

[SavageWombat]

Indeed, excellent find. I know we probably shouldn't include him (since further info on him won't probably come out), but I just noticed the first strip confirms by "word of characters" (panels 10-12) that Bozzok has four (or more) levels in Rogue higher than Haley.

He had four more levels than Haley at that point. Hasn't Haley leveled up since then?

I don't see any evidence that Bozzok is level 21+, certainly.

[zimmerwald1915]

He had four more levels than Haley at that point. Hasn't Haley leveled up since then?

I don't see any evidence that Bozzok is level 21+, certainly.

Haley was a 15th-level Rogue at the time, and is a 16th-level Rogue now. We could therefore list Bozzok as a 19th-level Rogue.

[Quild]

Haley was a 15th-level Rogue at the time, and is a 16th-level Rogue now. We could therefore list Bozzok as a 19th-level Rogue.

Actually Haley was shown to be level 15 in #615. I guess from shooting 3 arrows in one attack, but I'm not sure if a feat couldn't do that. Let's agree she's level 15.

I guess it's alright to assume she levelled after killing those low level thieves and surviving Bozzock&Crystal and that she could have been level 14 when Bozzock impaled her.

Bozzock then does not manage to sneak attack her in #618. He tries, but that just doesn't happen. Since he doesn't have the flanking, he can't go as far as noticing that he don't have four more level than she has.

That rogue in #604 should have expected it but didn't. It's like this early gag in #34.

So, Bozzock may be level 18 without having levelled since.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually Haley was shown to be level 15 in #615. I guess from shooting 3 arrows in one attack, but I'm not sure if a feat couldn't do that. Let's agree she's level 15.

I guess it's alright to assume she levelled after killing those low level thieves and surviving Bozzock&Crystal and that she could have been level 14 when Bozzock impaled her.

The evidence is strip #615 is more substantial than the number of attacks. While deliberating over which bow to take, Haley alludes to having Improved Precise Shot, a feat that can "do most of" what a seeking bow can. Improved Precise Shot requires a BAB of +11, which Rogues get at level 15.

It is not reasonable to assume that Haley leveled between strip #609, when Bozzok's Sneak Attack took her below 0 HP, and strip #615. Characters gain experience for overcoming challenges. Haley did not overcome any challenges in those seven strips. Being saved from certain death by your allies does not give you experience. It might grant your allies experience, if the circumstances are right. Belkar probably gained experience from what he later did to Crystal, but Haley and Celia retreated. Retreat per se indicates that you have not (yet) overcome the challenge presented by whatever you're retreating from. Nor should the low-level rogues Haley killed be regarded as granting her experience. For one thing, if they're low-level enough to die as quickly as they did, without Haley needing to Sneak Attack, they're probably too low-level to grant experience. For another, there weren't enough of them to offset their low level with numbers. Finally, Haley killed them after alluding to having Improved Precise Shot. Her remark cannot reasonably read as if it was prospective. She was describing her current condition.

[Quild]

The evidence is strip #615 is more substantial than the number of attacks. While deliberating over which bow to take, Haley alludes to having Improved Precise Shot, a feat that can "do most of" what a seeking bow can. Improved Precise Shot requires a BAB of +11, which Rogues get at level 15.

It is not reasonable to assume that Haley leveled between strip #609, when Bozzok's Sneak Attack took her below 0 HP, and strip #615. Characters gain experience for overcoming challenges. Haley did not overcome any challenges in those seven strips. Being saved from certain death by your allies does not give you experience. It might grant your allies experience, if the circumstances are right. Belkar probably gained experience from what he later did to Crystal, but Haley and Celia retreated. Retreat per se indicates that you have not (yet) overcome the challenge presented by whatever you're retreating from. Nor should the low-level rogues Haley killed be regarded as granting her experience. For one thing, if they're low-level enough to die as quickly as they did, without Haley needing to Sneak Attack, they're probably too low-level to grant experience. For another, there weren't enough of them to offset their low level with numbers. Finally, Haley killed them after alluding to having Improved Precise Shot. Her remark cannot reasonably read as if it was prospective. She was describing her current condition.

But in #604 Haley shot 3 arrows while using Rapid Shot.
Shouldn't that prove that she's level 14 in #604?

We can see in #12 and #124 that you level up while checking your character sheet. Which is something Haley may be doing in #615 even if she doesn't mention realizing having gained a level.

And we can see in #125 that you can be really not far from gaining a level sometimes.
I would think that some MD can grant xp for surviving some fights your class wasn't designed for when you see one.
Bluffing Crystal into looking into the barrel may not be worth a lot of HP, but still. Even if it's before Bozzock's sneak attack.

[zimmerwald1915]

But in #604 Haley shot 3 arrows while using Rapid Shot.
Shouldn't that prove that she's level 14 in #604?

No. Things like number of attacks or highest spell level used are useful for setting level floors only, not level ceilings. A character can always choose to take fewer attacks than they are able, or to cast a lower-level spell than they are able. In this case, Haley had a number of reasons not to take 4 attacks. She had only 3 clear shots. Hank was standing behind his flunkies. That means he enjoyed total concealment (50% miss chance) from being ten feet away from Haley, rather than the concealment (20% miss chance) his flunkies had. Hank's allies also provided him cover, and his Small size added to his AC as well. Finally, Haley might have expected that Hank wouldn't go down from a single arrow even if it hit; he definitely has a high rank in the Guild, and while rank does not correlate perfectly with level, it is not totally decoupled from it. Under these circumstances, Haley might have concluded that it was a waste of ammunition trying to hit Hank, at least on that turn.

We can see in #12 and #124 that you level up while checking your character sheet. Which is something Haley may be doing in #615 even if she doesn't mention realizing having gained a level.

And we can see in #125 that you can be really not far from gaining a level sometimes.

Well, you don't get to have it both ways. Haley cannot possibly be level 14 in strip #604 and level 16 in strip #615. There simply isn't enough available experience.

Strip #12 and strip #125 work against your point, not for it. In both cases, the characters checked their sheets in relatively stress-free moments, after (to borrow 4e terms) short or extended rests, not in the middle of extended chase/fight scenes.

I would think that some MD can grant xp for surviving some fights your class wasn't designed for when you see one.

There is no DM. The only person with the discretion to decide when to award XP is the Giant, and he doesn't exercise this discretion.

[Quild]

Ok for the non full-use of a full-attack.

Well, you don't get to have it both ways. Haley cannot possibly be level 14 in strip #604 and level 16 in strip #615. There simply isn't enough available experience.

What? Who said anything about level 16?
I'm not talking about a whole level, all I'm saying is that when Haley went shish kebab, maybe she was only 1 xp away from levelling. Maybe that missing xp was granted by the simple fact that the thought about using Pete old stuff.
An obvious thought? Oh you can't imagine how players can miss things.

Or, maybe, maybe she had already earned xp for a previous actions that she hadn't check yet, or that wasn't awarded until a relatively safe moment.

Strip #12 and strip #125 work against your point, not for it. In both cases, the characters checked their sheets in relatively stress-free moments, after (to borrow 4e terms) short or extended rests, not in the middle of extended chase/fight scenes.

#614 and #615 are relatively stress-free. And Haley may be checking her non existing character sheet while chosing a new bow. Some peoples just can't keep track of what they have.

There is no DM. The only person with the discretion to decide when to award XP is the Giant, and he doesn't exercise this discretion.

Oh come on. Wherever "Roleplay XP" come from could have granted Haley experience for the whole thing even if she lost that fight against someone 4 higher level than her, flanking her with her nemesis.



So anyway, if there's a chance however small that Haley could be lower level in #609 than in #615, then we can only be sure that Bozzok was level 18.

I've said already I had on this subject and won't argue anymore because I don't care that much. I just wanted to point out what was maybe a possibility.

[Aeliren]

Very nice. He's a family member so he qualifies (and I'm confident he'll show up again at some point). Does anyone have a smily for him?

I think there's an Ian smily at the Character Appearance thread.

EDIT: Yep, found it:


Could also want to add "aka Red" next to his name like other characters with nicknames.

[zimmerwald1915]

Vaarsuvius knows shadow conjuration. Also, when a character casts shadow conjuration, they incant the name of the spell they're mimicking, rather than "Shadow Conjuration."

[Timy]

Vaarsuvius knows shadow conjuration. Also, when a character casts shadow conjuration, they incant the name of the spell they're mimicking, rather than "Shadow Conjuration."

You can't be sure about the incantation.

Maybe the real incantation is "shadow conjuration" or "shadow conjuration : X" and if you fail your saving throw, the illusion make you hear only "X".

I would that this explication to better explain it.

[Procyonpi]

O-Chul has ranks in Diplomacy:

Skill ranks. It didn't come naturally, he had to work at it.

[Telonius]

This one has been on my mind for a while, but the title of today's comic (#981: Followers Follow) kind of pushed it to the front. Has there been any consensus/argument about whether Haley has taken the Leadership feat? We've seen her in leadership positions several times now (with the Resistance, now commanding an ad-hoc squad from Tinkertown). In a few of those, she's had a sort of second-in-command-ish person, at least a couple levels below her. Other than the hard limit for number of feats, is there any other evidence she might (or might not) have it?

[lonewolf1210]

This one has been on my mind for a while, but the title of today's comic (#981: Followers Follow) kind of pushed it to the front. Has there been any consensus/argument about whether Haley has taken the Leadership feat? We've seen her in leadership positions several times now (with the Resistance, now commanding an ad-hoc squad from Tinkertown). In a few of those, she's had a sort of second-in-command-ish person, at least a couple levels below her. Other than the hard limit for number of feats, is there any other evidence she might (or might not) have it?

The Leadership feat has 2 main features:
- you gain a cohort
- you gain followers

While one could argue that Haley occasionally had followers (but even there I would argue against it), she certainly never had a cohort.

The character in the story that I would argue most clearly having the Leadership feat is Julio Scoundrel with Bandana beeing his cohort and the rest of the crew beeing his followers. Other than that, I dont see any character having that specific feat.

Having the feat isnt a requirement to beeing in a leadership position.

[Telonius]

Leadership does grant a cohort, but there's nothing saying that the cohort has to stick with the person. There might be a few possible cohorts she's cycled through: Thanh (from the Resistance), Celia (when the party was split, and she and Belkar were transporting Roy's body), and now Bandana. Each of them seems to be a bit higher level than the other "followers" she's been surrounded with.

[Quild]

I don't think Thanh was very high level. His turn undead does not damage the wight in #514. Plus, he gets dominated quite easily for a Paladin, despite Divine Grace.

And I don't think that's due to low charisma or wisdom (He has LoH, is sent on diplomatic missions and chosen as a leader, etc...)

[Kurald Galain]

EDIT: Yep, found it:

Added. However, I've unlisted some of his skills, since Jump and Listen can be used untrained, and I'm not sure how comic 815 demonstrates he has Tumble skill?

Also, we know from recent forum posts that Girard is CN, and that O-Chul has Diplomacy, and that V has Shadow Conj.

[unbeliever536]

I'm not sure how comic 815 demonstrates he has Tumble skill?

Presumably because he jumps a fairly hefty distance (note Geoff's expression of alarm) and takes no falling damage, so far as we can see. If the distance is less than 20 feet, though, he might just have passed an untrained jump check.

ETA: also, on the discussion of Roy's battle with Thog, Thog slamming Roy into the pillars was a dungeoncrash attack. I think that didn't actually make it into the calculations?

[D.One]

ETA: also, on the discussion of Roy's battle with Thog, Thog slamming Roy into the pillars was a dungeoncrash attack. I think that didn't actually make it into the calculations?

[...]

Now, let's take a look at the Arena Fight with Thog.

By my accounts, Roy took 2 Greataxe strikes (not enraged yet), 7 dungeoncrashing strikes(rage on), 3 kicks(rage on), 1 Giant Rock strike, was thrown in solid surfaces 2 times (rage on; I'm counting this because both times he seemed to take damage), and fell from a height of 5 "Thogs".

Since we assume Thog's Strenght is, at least, 22, let's use it at 22. That means 1d12+9 for each greataxe strike (assuming a mundane greataxe), 4d6+16 for each enraged dungeoncrash strike, 1d3+8 (nonlethal) for each kick and, assuming the "thrown in solid surface" is the same as an unarmed attack, 1d3+8 (nonlethal) for each throw.

Assuming the giant rock is an improvised weapon akin to a Greatclub, we peg its damage at 1d10+12.

And, assuming Thog at minimum Half-Orc height (very unlikely), we would have a 25 feet fall, to a damage of 2d6.

That means he took a damage range of 155-314 plus 45-55 nonlethal. [...]

Yes, it did.

[Reboot]

Why is Haley listed as having "three potions (since Belkar took one)", citing #799, when #904 says Roy drank them all?

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, it did.

I was gonna check your work, but in doing so I discovered something.

Thog's Strength may be overestimated. The current listing is based on the Strength needed to beat the break DC 28 of an iron door: 20 from die roll + 8 from enraged Strength. But Thog gets a +5 bonus to break doors from being a dungeon crasher. He would only need a +3 enraged Strength modifier to have a shot at breaking the iron door, meaning his base Strength could be as low as 13 (it'd be 12, but Thog qualifies for Power Attack). This seems silly, and there really ought to be evidence of a higher number somewhere. But for the life of me I can't think of anything easy. We might be able to figure something out based on the Strength needed to lift that piece of rock he hit Roy with over his head, if we can figure out the dimensions and the composition.