Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

[b_jonas]

Metamagic-ed 9th level spells require extra spell slots though:

Yes, and Xykon even knows the rules about arcane metamagic: in srtip #652, he realizes that Vaarsuvius's Quickened Chain Lightning spell requires a level 10 spell slot, because Chain Lightning is level 6, but quickening increases the level by 4.

[Timy]

A.) I would hardly count the Darth V fight as Xykon being in significant danger. V got some good shots in, but Xykon had the upper hand the whole battle.

I choose this one example because he specifically said he used "all means at [his] disposal" and yet, while V casted multiple spell each round, X casted only one.

2.) Speaking of, in a single strip, Xykon does not say a single spell he casts (they could be Silent Spelled, but why?),

Yes, there is times where the name of the spells are not said aloud even if there is no silent metamagic involved. But having X NEVER saying quickened is quite off to me...

[Peelee]

I choose this one example because he specifically said he used "all means at [his] disposal" and yet, while V casted multiple spell each round, X casted only one.

I'd hardly call an two Energy Drains, a Superb Dispelling, and a big rock "all the means at his disposal." He's talking about taking advice from others in that fight.

Yes, there is times where the name of the spells are not said aloud even if there is no silent metamagic involved. But having X NEVER saying quickened is quite off to me...

It is to me as well, don't get me wrong. But that such rules can be bent does leave some wiggle room.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Minor: Tarquin's glamered armor is listed as "glamoured armor". The former spelling is archaic, but it's not a typo in the strip.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...r.htm#glamered

[Kurald Galain]

Fixed.

I note Dorukan's age is listed without a source; do we know where it is mentioned?

Haley's block says she has 200,000 gp, but the comic linked to doesn't seem to explain why. More to the point, with the recent shopping spree she probably doesn't have that amount any more.

[Peelee]

Haley's block says she has 200,000 gp, but the comic linked to doesn't seem to explain why. More to the point, with the recent shopping spree she probably doesn't have that amount any more.

First panel. "I've finally earned enough to buy [my dad's] freedom." Which was previously established as 200,000.

Also, when the airship bill was 200,000+, Bandana said they would need the order to hep with the bill due to the sheer amount. We could assume that at 43,000, the Mechane may have paid its own way. Which would make Haley's cash 200,000 + x - y, where x = spending money + Elan tax and y = wands. With two unknowns, and working against each other at that, we might still assume ~200,000 fairly safely.

[hamishspence]

I'd hardly call an two Energy Drains, a Superb Dispelling, and a big rock "all the means at his disposal." He's talking about taking advice from others in that fight.

Talking of Superb Dispelling - could it be used to ballpark Xykon's level - based on the assumption that Xykon's Spellcraft modifier isn't more than 10 pts less than the DC (as is typical with epic characters?

The standard version's DC 59 - which would suggest Xykon's modifier is unlikely to be less than 49.

[Steven]

I'm no expert but I thought boosting checks to +40 by lvl 10 was reasonably trivial. Assuming he keeps the skill maxed that would account for +49 by skill points alone by level 19. Unless I'm getting my pathfinder skill advancement and 3.5 muddled which is quite likely.

[hamishspence]

In 3rd ed your skill ranks can't be higher than your level +3.

So, a 21st level Xykon could only have 24 ranks in Spellcraft. And it's an Int skill - so the skill bonus he'd add to it would not be very high - Xykon is not a high INT character. (though he would get a +2 synergy bonus for Spellcraft if he has 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), and another +2 once he reaches 25 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana)).

Wizards (being INT-based) are much better at boosting Spellcraft.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm no expert but I thought boosting checks to +40 by lvl 10 was reasonably trivial.

That's correct; once you have Craft Wondrous Item you can start by crafting an item that gives a bonus to spellcraft. Even before epic levels those bonuses can get rather big.

[Quartz]

Talking of Superb Dispelling - could it be used to ballpark Xykon's level - based on the assumption that Xykon's Spellcraft modifier isn't more than 10 pts less than the DC (as is typical with epic characters?

The standard version's DC 59 - which would suggest Xykon's modifier is unlikely to be less than 49.

That's correct; once you have Craft Wondrous Item you can start by crafting an item that gives a bonus to spellcraft. Even before epic levels those bonuses can get rather big.

Have we seen Xykon gain such a ring since his body got destroyed in Dorukan's dungeon?

Assuming a required +49:

24 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) gives +2 synergy bonus
or 25+ ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) gives +4 synergy bonus at level 22+
Skill Focus gives +3
Epic Skill Focus gives +10.
Page 1 of this thread gives him about Int 15 which gives +2.

Note that Xykon cannot have both Epic Skill Focus and Epic Spellcasting at level 21 but he might not have the +4 synergy bonus at level 22.

So we're looking at bonuses of 17 or 19 to the base skill which means a base skill of 32 or 30 respectively. Taking the lower skill number puts Xykon at level 27+, which seems about right. No magic item required.

Xykon being level 27 also fits with having taken Automatic Quicken Spell 3 times but not Multispell - he'd need to be 29th level for that. However, 29th level allows for an Int modifier of +0. Given that Xykon hasn't ever shown any great intellect, I'd go for the latter.

[Kurald Galain]

Have we seen Xykon gain such a ring since his body got destroyed in Dorukan's dungeon?

It could straightforwardly be in his backup fortress.

On the other hand, have we seen Xykon automatically quickening every single spell he ever cast? Even though he has used the phrase "quickened <spell>" precisely never, and other characters have been using that phrase whenever they're quickening anything?

[hamishspence]

Xykon being level 27 also fits with having taken Automatic Quicken Spell 3 times but not Multispell - he'd need to be 29th level for that. However, 29th level allows for an Int modifier of +0. Given that Xykon hasn't ever shown any great intellect, I'd go for the latter.

If The Giant is using Complete Arcane (where the Warlock we see in the bar fight comes from) then it should be noted that Automatic Quicken Spell was massively nerfed in that - only grants 1 level of automatically quickened spells each time it's taken, not 3.

[Peelee]

What book is the 3-level Auto Quicken from?

[hamishspence]

Epic Handbook (and SRD).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats...icQuickenSpell

[Quartz]

What book is the 3-level Auto Quicken from?

It's in the SRD. However, having re-read the feat thanks to your question, I note that it requires 30 ranks in Spellcraft, so Xykon would have had to take Epic Skill Focus before taking Automatic Quicken Spell.

[Steven]

Okay, so we have 24 from skill points, >= +2 from int, +2 from Knowledge arcana, +3 skill focus. = +31

I think we can rule out the other +2 from synergy as he didn't notice the oddity with the ritual.
So if the only way he can boost that high is through ranks then he'd have to be lvl 39

Personally I don't buy that he only has an int of 15 but that's just my personal opinion of the character.

Edit: Oop. Scrap that. With epic skill focus he'd only need to be lvl 29.

[hamishspence]

Skill Focus feats don't increase one's Skill Ranks - only one's modifier. To take Automatic Quicken Spell at all, Xykon would need to have at least 27 character levels (max skill rank is your level, +3).

[Jasdoif]

I can't check books right now, but wouldn't Rapid Metamagic (from Complete Mage, if I recall) be an easier explanation than a pile of epic feats?

[Quartz]

It could straightforwardly be in his backup fortress.

Which he did not have.

On the other hand, have we seen Xykon automatically quickening every single spell he ever cast? Even though he has used the phrase "quickened <spell>" precisely never, and other characters have been using that phrase whenever they're quickening anything?

Indeed, but as I pointed out upthread, if his spell is Automatically Quickened, he doesn't have to deliberately apply the feat - it happens automatically. And he has announced - deliberately applied - other metamagics. And Xykon is a sorcerer, and sorcerers cannot normally use Quicken Spell. And in SoD, we do see him cast Energy Drain at least twice in one round.

So the follow-on question is, do we see Xykon cast two spells in one round elsewhere?

[Quartz]

Skill Focus feats don't increase one's Skill Ranks - only one's modifier. To take Automatic Quicken Spell at all, Xykon would need to have at least 27 character levels (max skill rank is your level, +3).

You're right. Epic Skill Focus only applies its bonus to the check, not the ranks, so Xykon would need to be 30th level to have taken the feat three times (27th, 29th, 30th).

[Quartz]

Which he did not have.

Just to elaborate, we see Xykon and Redcloak and MitD going straight from Dorukan's fortress to the hobgoblin encampments.

[Kurald Galain]

Which he did not have.

Yes, he did.

And in SoD, we do see him cast Energy Drain at least twice in one round.

You're assuming that, but that is not a given. It strikes me that you're using the assumption that Xykon is level 28-ish as "proof" that he could cast multiple ninth-level spells per round, whereas you're using the assumption that he was casting two Energy Drains at the same time as "proof" that he must be in the high epic levels. However, that's circular reasoning.

By the way, Quickened magic looks like this.

[hamishspence]

Given how often he throws around metamagic high level spells (Still Meteor Swarm, Maximize Energy Drain) it does seem to me a bit more likely that he's using Improved Spell Capacity, than that he's using Rods, or those "X Metamagic 3 times per day" feats.

[Quartz]

Yes, he did.

No, he thought he did - as that strip shows, it had gone and the hobgoblins had built their encampment on it.

You're assuming that, but that is not a given. It strikes me that you're using the assumption that Xykon is level 28-ish as "proof" that he could cast multiple ninth-level spells per round

No. The question was asked upthread about Xykon quickening spells, and I provided the by-the-SRD way. Which, it turns out, needed a little tweaking.

[Kurald Galain]

Given how often he throws around metamagic high level spells

You mean, twice total over a span of 1200+ strips?

[Quartz]

Given how often he throws around metamagic high level spells (Still Meteor Swarm, Maximize Energy Drain) it does seem to me a bit more likely that he's using Improved Spell Capacity, than that he's using Rods, or those "X Metamagic 3 times per day" feats.

Do you have the strips where he uses those? If that's the case, I happen to agree with you, but he's still going to need 4 Epic feats to cast a Maximised Energy Drain and still have the Epic Spellcasting feat, which puts him at level 26 minimum, 5 Epic feats - level 27 - to cast a Quickened 9th level spell, and given the likelihood of him having Epic Skill Focus so as to cast Superb Dispelling, he'd have to be 29th level, or 27th without the fourth Improved Spell Capacity feat and a +2 Int bonus.

[hamishspence]

Do you have the strips where he uses those? If that's the case, I happen to agree with you, but he's still going to need 4 Epic feats to cast a Maximised Energy Drain and still have the Epic Spellcasting feat, which puts him at level 26 minimum, 5 Epic feats - level 27 - to cast a Quickened 9th level spell, and given the likelihood of him having Epic Skill Focus so as to cast Superb Dispelling, he'd have to be 29th level, or 27th without the fourth Improved Spell Capacity feat and a +2 Int bonus.

Still Meteor Swarm:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

Maximise Energy Drain:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

[Steven]

I still don't see the need for quickened spell. It seems more likely to be that X cast the maximized spell as a full round action and then was shown moving and blasting to save on have an extra panel.

That means that our paladin friend only gets 3 attacks per round however.

[Quartz]

Still Meteor Swarm:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

Maximise Energy Drain:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

Thanks.

It occurs to me that there's yet another way. In another sourcebook, the Immortals Handbook, there's the Automatic Metamagic Capacity Epic feat. Note that this is free to use, so there are no copyright issues. Xykon would still need three of them, plus Epic Spellcasting, plus Epic Skill Focus, for a total of 5 Epic feats (6 for Quickening), and so level 27 (or 29). This makes more thematic sense as it means Xykon can cast metamagicked spells normally, without having to take full-round actions.