[3.5] Can Knowledge be Power?

[Dancing Owlbear]

I'm wanting to make a character for D&D 3.5 that is focused on knowledge skills. It seems like the Archivist makes extensive use of Knowledge skills with its Dark Knowledge ability, but I'm not especially familiar with 3.5 and I would appreciate any advice that people could give.

[Fouredged Sword]

Consider the knowledge devotion feat. You can get another set of bonuses for a high knowledge check.

[Renen]

This shoulda been asked in questions answered by RAW:
The answer is no.

[gawwy]

Urban Savant from cityscape is also worth mentioning. has tonnes of cool stuff like using a knowledge check in place of a diplomacy check and getting to know exactly what bab and saves something has.

later it allows similar ability's to dark knowledge like granting allies d6's to damage and stuff.


Its intended for bard entry as it has bardic knowledge as a prereq but there are ways around that using prcs. there is also an adaption that just needs know(History) 2 ranks right in the prereqs making for awesome wizard entrys. can make a divination wizard pretty damn cool.

its good for campains where you are up against humanoids that are tricky to judge if you can take in a fight due to class levels not usually popping up on know checks.

[Fouredged Sword]

Urban Savant from cityscape is also worth mentioning. has tonnes of cool stuff like using a knowledge check in place of a diplomacy check and getting to know exactly what bab and saves something has.

later it allows similar ability's to dark knowledge like granting allies d6's to damage and stuff.


Its intended for bard entry as it has bardic knowledge as a prereq but there are ways around that using prcs. there is also an adaption that just needs know(History) 2 ranks right in the prereqs making for awesome wizard entrys. can make a divination wizard pretty damn cool.

its good for campains where you are up against humanoids that are tricky to judge if you can take in a fight due to class levels not usually popping up on know checks.

People with class levels are Knowledge Local. The problem is that it is unclear if that is supposed to be one skill, or subdevided into all "Local" areas like Knowledge (Waterdeep)

[Forrestfire]

In 3.0, it was divided by region and it made the skill nigh-useless, iirc. 3.5 just made it (Local) for everything, and handwaved it.


In any case, for a full-on knowledge -> power build, I'd likely use Archivist as a base, but on the off-chance you're wanting to be something a bit more martially-inclined, there are a ton of builds out there that can use Knowledge Devotion to great effect.

Three fun tools to play with when building something focused on Knowledge Devotion are Cloistered Cleric, Warlock, and/or Dragonfire Adept dips.

Cloistered Cleric 1 gets you two domains and the knowledge domain, which you can then swap for Knowledge Devotion. However, since if you do that, you lose knowledges as class skills, you either want to put some cross-class ranks in or use another method of getting them (if you're human or playing with Flaws, you an use Dragontouched and the Draconic Knowledge feat to get +1 to all knowledges and have them always be class skills).

Warlock 1 gets you the Otherworldly Whispers invocation, which gives a +6 untyped bonus to Arcana, Religion, and The Planes checks. Dragonfire Adept gives you the Draconic Knowledge invocation (different from the above feat), which gives another +6 untyped bonus to all Knowledge skills and spellcraft.

One build that I've been wanting to try for a while is this one (note, it requires Flaws to be in play to work, or delays some stuff a bit later if they're not in play):

Spoiler: Jack of all trades, master of being an angry blender

Show

1) Cloistered Cleric 1 [Dragontouched, Draconic Knowledge^{human bonus}, Knowledge Devotion^{cleric bonus}, Travel Devotion^{cleric bonus}, Strength Devotion^{cleric bonus}, Able Learner^{flaw bonus}, Draconic Claws^{flaw bonus}]
2) Dragonfire Adept 1 (draconic knowledge)
3) Warlock 1 (otherworldly whispers) [Extra Turning]
4) Warblade 1
5) Warblade 2
6) Chameleon 1 [Multiattack]
7) Chameleon 2
8) Chameleon 3
9) Chameleon 4 [open slot]
10) Chameleon 5
11) Chameleon 6
12) Chameleon 7 [open slot]
13) Chameleon 8
14) Chameleon 9
15) Chameleon 10 [open slot]
16-20) open levels

Basically, the character concept here is a traveling warrior, empowered by his draconic heritage and always looking for new things to learn and incorporate into his personal style. The ability score focus is Strength, then Intelligence and Constitution, with a Wisdom of 11 being useful but not strictly necessary (although charisma is nice for extra turning). At level 1, you have a +2 bonus to all knowledge skills on top of your skill ranks and Int mod, and at level 2 and 3, your bonuses increase by a huge amount. Warblade gets you some neat tricks like diamond mind counters or better flanking, and Chameleon builds on the theme of someone constantly learning new things and improving himself.

Assuming 32 point-buy, you can have starting stats of Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, and Cha 12. Travel Devotion lets you run around the battlefield, and Knowledge Devotion is always at least a +1 to attacks and damage, and most of the time will be more. You've also got some misc buffs from level 1, and in a pinch can breath fire or fire little energy blasts. All-around, it's a pretty good combatant with lots of out-of-combat utility.

[Vhaidara]

3 Levels of Truenamer can actually be useful on a knowledge build. Universal Aptitude + Hidden Knowledge nets you +15, and the levels also give you a +2 to one knowledge of your choice that stacks with Skill Focus.

[NNescio]

This shoulda been asked in questions answered by RAW:
The answer is no.

Power is the derivative of energy with respect to time.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't forget a splash of Factotum for Int to a ton of things-- it's not technically Knowledge, but it's the same general idea.

EDIT: Let's not get too crazy with the dips. Knowledge Devotion only needs a +35 to cap out the bonus, for instance. So far, we've got:

• Warlock 1-- +6 via invocation
• DFA 1-- +6 via invocation
• Truenamer 3-- +15 via utterance
• Marshal 1-- +Cha

3 Cleric or Archivist levels can give us Divine Insight (+5) and Guidance of the Avatar (+20!), as well as putting us on the path to caster-y power. It's a shame that Urban Savant only advances arcane spellcasting...

[Vhaidara]

Oh, and a one level dip in Marshal for Cha to Int and you've got two stats bumping your Knowledge skills.

[Chronos]

Quoth Keledrath:

3 Levels of Truenamer can actually be useful on a knowledge build. Universal Aptitude + Hidden Knowledge nets you +15, and the levels also give you a +2 to one knowledge of your choice that stacks with Skill Focus.

Except then you need to invest in keeping your Truespeech check up so that you can keep on using those utterances. That's tough enough when you're focusing everything you have on it, and all the more so when you're trying to support a real class at the same time.

Oh, and they're also each a standard action to cast and only last for 5 rounds, so don't even bother trying to use that in combat.

[Vhaidara]

Eh, I guess so. The first time I did a knowledge optimization was honestly a Tristalt. Truenamer//Archivist//Factotum, and trying to dip as much as possible on the Archivist line to try and keep Truenaming as my main schtick. Level 6 I was hitting like +50

[WhamBamSam]

Knowledge Devotion is obviously the main thing for knowledge based builds, but there are a few other ways to convert knowledge into power.

In terms of things that are actually relevant to a real game at an average table, you might be expected to make knowledge checks for polymorph/wild shape/metamorphosis/etc forms that you want to assume.

In terms of things that aren't, there are some sacrifice rituals in BoVD that can convert a Knowledge (Religion) check and a commoner into a service rendered by an Evil Outsider, and knowing in character about the beginning part of Pun Pun (summoning Pazuzu) is a Knowledge (The Planes) check.

[Forrestfire]

Don't forget a splash of Factotum for Int to a ton of things-- it's not technically Knowledge, but it's the same general idea.

EDIT: Let's not get too crazy with the dips. Knowledge Devotion only needs a +35 to cap out the bonus, for instance. So far, we've got:

• Warlock 1-- +6 via invocation
• DFA 1-- +6 via invocation
• Truenamer 3-- +15 via utterance
• Marshal 1-- +Cha

3 Cleric or Archivist levels can give us Divine Insight (+5) and Guidance of the Avatar (+20!), as well as putting us on the path to caster-y power. It's a shame that Urban Savant only advances arcane spellcasting...

Guidance of the Avatar is effectively useless here, because its short duration and action cost means it's only ever good if you know you're about to fight something, but don't know what (because Knowledge Devotion is rolled when you enter combat, at which point it's too late to cast the spell in reaction).

Another useful thing, though, is the Collector of Stories skill trick. 1/encounter +5 to the roll, iirc.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Another useful thing, though, is the Collector of Stories skill trick. 1/encounter +5 to the roll, iirc.

Oh right, forgot about that one. It's a +5 any time you're trying to "identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities." Probably the single easiest way to boost checks for Knowledge Devotion.

[gawwy]

I get the feeling we are getting off track here....

there are a bunch of ways to boost knowladge checks sky high that is true. how many ways can we weaponize it?

so far we have:

Knowledge devotion: +1{<=15},+2{16-25},+3{26-30},+4{31-35},+5{36+}bonis to hit and damage rolls(insight)


Archivist, Dark knowledge:
[1],Tactics,+1{15},+2{25},+3{35} to own and allies attack rolls
[2],Urban empathy, use knowladge checks instead of dip checks for animals, humanoids and monstrous humanoids.
[5],Puissance,+1{15},+2{25},+3{35} to own and allies saves
[8],Foe,+1d6{15},+2d6{25},+3d6{35} to own and allies damage rolls
[11],Dread Secret,Dazzle{15},Daze{25},stun{35},one creature
[14],Foreknowledge,+1{15},+2{25},+3{35}, to own and allies ad against one creature(insight),


Urban savant, Urban savvy:
[1]Strengths{15},learn BAB AC and cobat feats of target.
[4]Weaknesses{15}learn HD count, DR and type, Saves and special weaknesses.
[7]Methods,+1d6{15},+2d6{25},+3d6{35}, to own and allies damage rolls
[8]Pierce Deception,learn if somthing is hiding its true appearance{20}, and how{30}
[10]True nature,+2{15},+3{25},+4{35}deflection bonus to AC and resistance bonus to saves along with a protection from(that creature) effect.

can we add to this list?

(ps i like the idea of factotum into Urban savant as a know it all build if you can convice the dm to allow you arcane diliente(sp?) count for entry and the caster level increases count for advancing it)

[WhamBamSam]

See my above post. You might need knowledge checks for form changing stuff (which combines well with Knowledge Devotion, since you can get a lot of attacks that way), and there are some silly things that you can do with little more than in character knowledge that you can do them.

[DeltaEmil]

People with class levels are Knowledge Local. The problem is that it is unclear if that is supposed to be one skill, or subdevided into all "Local" areas like Knowledge (Waterdeep)

It's only one skill, unless you play in the Forgotten Realms.

[Coidzor]

From a certain point of view the Wizard, the Archivist, and the (Spell to Power) Erudite all have their knowledge of magic/psionics translate directly into their potential personal power.

[Threadnaught]

Complete Champion brings the Knowledge Devotion Feat, the Knowledge Domain Affiliation and the Paragnostic Apostle Prestige Class.

As well as Spontaneous Divination for Wizards.