new campaign, new character.. new doubts

[dehro]

After stumbling our way through a campaign that lasted a good 2 years of play, one of the players has taken on the mantle of DM and is launching a new campaign.
It's set in a Faerun-based world (not quite the same political/historical setting, but flavour-wise it's the same)
We start at 1st level and are 4-5 players (the fift one has yet to confirm)
All classes and races are allowed, on principle, within a LA of +2 for the races.
The DM has made it clear that he is not against unconventional/unusual races being played. As for classes, I reckon setting specific ones (eberron, to say one) would not fit very well, and probably be refused.
The game itself will be rather sandbox-y in nature, depending on the combination of our characters as a starting point... and doesn't really require a background to our characters
The DM doesn't seem to care much about them, but did say that if we don't write one we'd pretty much have to take what we got.. AFAIK him, he probably won't really bother much with them. I on the other hand do care about such things and will both write a BG and probably keep a journal like I did for the first character of the previous campaign.

My dice rolls gave the following result
11, 12, 10, 15, 18, 8

After having spent most of the previous campaign somehow always ending on the frontline no matter what I played, this time I would like to play an archery based character. Since we already have a barbarian, an arcane caster and a divine caster (no word yet on what the other guy would be playing, should he in fact join us), I would also cover a straight up skillmonkey/thief role, making tracks, traps, locks and similar nuissances my area of expertise.
The role of face of the party could really land on anyone at this stage, and that includes me.
I am thinking of eventually taking levels of scout or some other such combo, that is, assuming I survive through the first level/s.
I don't mind a degree of optimisation, but I really dislike the notion of dipping 1 or 2 levels in some more or less remote class only for the sake of gaining access to that one particular talent or feat necessary to gain access to yet another combo or class, or combo of classes. I do not aim to create a character capable of solo-ing this campaign (nor, as a player, do I have the chops to do so, even should you hand me pun-pun's character sheet).

taking all of the above in account,
I am thinking of distributing my dices as follows:
STR 8
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 11
CHA 10

as for races, I'm thinking strongheart halfling, or elf. I can't really think of an other race that would be well suited for an archer/thief.
suggestions and observations are welcome.

P.S. I am reading the relevant guides and handbooks, but as always, I have difficulty processing the infodump, so thank you, but I don't think I am missing any links to relevant handbooks.

[Honest Tiefling]

1. What do you mean by flavor? Faerun is a big place, so it is a bit like saying it has the flavor of cake. There's a general trend, but there is a lot of variation. Also, which region or what region are you starting off as? Where is your BG set?

2. You might want a better strength. Composite bows demand it. (And personally, it makes more sense to me.)

3. Rogue might be a bad idea, since your sneak attack die only work for 30 feet. What resources can you use? The Scout class might be right up your alley. Might I ask what Optimization level your party tends to be at?

[dehro]

1. What do you mean by flavor? Faerun is a big place, so it is a bit like saying it has the flavor of cake. There's a general trend, but there is a lot of variation. Also, which region or what region are you starting off as? Where is your BG set?

2. You might want a better strength. Composite bows demand it. (And personally, it makes more sense to me.)

3. Rogue might be a bad idea, since your sneak attack die only work for 30 feet. What resources can you use? The Scout class might be right up your alley. Might I ask what Optimization level your party tends to be at?

1) I don't know. It's Faerun, so it's cake and not pork chops (ravenloft) but I don't know much beyond that.. the DM has been remarkably stingy on setting details. MY BG will therefore be equally unspecified.. after all, we're first level mooks.

2) you are right. I guess I could swap out STR for CHA (even though that gives me stupid negative points on things like bluff, which I gather will also be one of my tasks).. I'm not really comfy with the notion of bringing wisdom into the negatives for the impact on Will saves.

3) the party does need some way to get into places and through locked doors, or tracking.. and none of the others so far seem inclined to cover that role. If I can get that stuff otherwise and still be a decent archer, I am open to suggestions.
as for optimisation, I don't know. experience level within player pool varies, and so does the tendency or know-how towards optimisation. I guess at least one or two WILL be pretty well optimised.

[prufock]

Options that come to my mind:

Swift Hunter - A ranger/scout multiclass using the Swift Hunter feat to gain some benefits from both. This build gives you some pretty good damage output through skirmish, close to full BAB, improved speed, lots of skill points, tracking AND trapfinding, and a grab bag of other goodies (camouflage and/or hide in plain sight!).

Warlock - This gives you at-will ranged blasting, which can be at 250' range if you take Eldritch Spear. Your invocations round you out with Beguiling Influence for face duties, Shatter for traps and locks (unless they're magical, then you're in trouble), Walk Unseen for sneaking, Flee the Scene to teleport away, and so on. You can take a level of Binder and the Precocious Apprentice feat at level 1 to get into Anima Mage, increasing your versatility. You can also take Hellfire Warlock later for more damage. Wands of Knock and Find Traps can help you out here (thanks to UMD check) and you can use animated undead to spring traps.

Arcane Sniper - Using rogue, unseen seer, uncanny trickster, daggerspell mage, spellwarp sniper in any combination, you cast spells from hiding that deal sneak attack damage. You can trapfind, craft, and have lots of utility or extra-damage spells. Take a reserve feat for dealing damage at will without depleting spell slots.

Factotum - Because it does everything. Take the Track feat if you need it, and lots of Fonts of Inspiration.

[dehro]

swift hunter is melee.. which I'm trying to avoid

Warlock is awesome and one of the characters that lasted longest in the previous campaigns.. there is the issue of the use of Shatter never giving the right result.. as in, I would shatter the lock on a closed door, and the DM (other guy who is now a player, but I think the current DM is of the same opinion) basically told me it would break the lock without opening the door.. so, huge let down for me.

arcane sniper.. I will pretend I understood half of what you said there. it is something I'd like the character to grow into, if possible.

factotum.. I am not really familiar with it.. and fear I rolled poorly for such a jack of all trades kind of character.

[Lanaya]

swift hunter is melee.. which I'm trying to avoid

It does ranged just as well as it does melee, if not better.

[Honest Tiefling]

I looked at the feat Swift Hunter and it doesn't seem melee at all. I'm a little confused.

[DEMON]

swift hunter is melee.. which I'm trying to avoid

Nope. Greater Manyshot, or swift action movement and Rapid Shot full attacks. Swift Hunter is very archery (albeit short ranged; usually up to 30ft.)

Since you're in Fearun and I'm currently dabbling in that build, I'd also suggest SotAO Ranger / Wizard (Wiz 1 is all you need). 6+INT skill points; lots of nice skills, Trapfinding a sinlge ACF away.

[Flickerdart]

Given your party composition, is an archer the best idea? You only have one frontline guy, so there's nobody standing between all of your squishies and the enemy. This is especially true if you are going to be a Rogue or Scout with a vested interest in a 30ft (60ft with that one feat) range. The casters can at least hang far back and shoot Medium or Long range spells. If you are 100% for archery, I would really recommend focusing on long-range engagements. This means no precision damage - a composite bow and generic damage bonuses are going to have to be your bread and butter. Knowledge Devotion, composite bows, that sort of thing.

Factotum is a good option, since it can do the skill stuff very well and have resources aplenty for archery.

If you can reasonably expect the campaign to go on for a while, Sniper's Shot (1st level spell for a bunch of casters, swift action) lets you have unlimited SA range for one shot. Since archers thrive on multiple volleys, this isn't super great, but it's something.

[prufock]

swift hunter is melee.. which I'm trying to avoid

Swift Hunter is either melee or ranged, whichever you choose. Take the ranged combat style from ranger and pick up a bow.

Warlock is awesome and one of the characters that lasted longest in the previous campaigns.. there is the issue of the use of Shatter never giving the right result.. as in, I would shatter the lock on a closed door, and the DM (other guy who is now a player, but I think the current DM is of the same opinion) basically told me it would break the lock without opening the door.. so, huge let down for me.

In that case, your DM isn't playing fair, but remember that shatter affects a solid object up to TEN POUNDS per caster level. If breaking the lock doesn't work, just break the door! Or, as I said, wands of Knock and Find Traps, and then just blast the traps.

arcane sniper.. I will pretend I understood half of what you said there. it is something I'd like the character to grow into, if possible.

Those were some prestige classes and a feat. Basically, you would multiclass rogue with some spellcaster (probably wizard) and then get into one or more of the above prestige classes. A reserve feat lets you cast a pseudo-spell, some options of which do damage. So you are a sneaky character that deals sneak attack damage with your spells.

factotum.. I am not really familiar with it.. and fear I rolled poorly for such a jack of all trades kind of character.

With Factotum, switch around your INT and DEX, as well as STR and WIS abilities (bumping your STR and DEX when you hit level 4 or 8) and you would do fine. You gain bonuses to attacks, saves, and damage based on INT when you spend an Inspiration Point. You can gain sneak attack as well. It's a very good class for what you want, and you get a few spells to boot.

Given your party composition, is an archer the best idea? You only have one frontline guy, so there's nobody standing between all of your squishies and the enemy.

Don't discount the divine caster as a frontliner, Flicker. Clerics get heavy armor, tower shields, Divine Power, etc. Druids get animal companions and wild shape.

[Flickerdart]

Don't discount the divine caster as a frontliner, Flicker. Clerics get heavy armor, tower shields, Divine Power, etc. Druids get animal companions and wild shape.

There are other divine casters than those, and even with these there's no guarantee they'll want to wade into melee combat. Relying on uncontrollable variables is the surest route to disappointment.

[dehro]

the divine caster may very well end up being of the punchy variety, so frontline duties seem to be covered.
Scout is another avenue I am considering

EDIT: scout seems to do everything I had in mind for my character to do... i.e. archery, traps, scouting (d'oh)...
it lacks bluff as skill.. but that's a minor issue, maybe..

[Troacctid]

I think either Warlock or Swift Hunter is the way to go for a sneaky archer.

Warlocks are pretty great at stealth and infiltration. They can hide in plain sight at 1st level with the darkness invocation and the Blend Into Shadows feat. (Darkness is also nice for granting concealment to your entire party. Team player!) Flee the scene allows them to teleport themselves and others past any mundane obstacles at will--no need for Open Lock when you can blink right past the door! Run into any magical traps or defenses? Snap off a voracious dispelling and flick it off like a light switch. If you fail the dispel check, just keep trying until you make it--unlimited uses FTW. And as for archery, Eldritch Blast lets you deal consistent ranged damage turn after turn, and you can enhance it with some nice rider effects too.

Swift Hunter is the archetypal mundane archer. It lets you toss a lot of damage dice around in combat, and you get bonus feats and loads of skill points to round out the build. You'd typically start as a Scout and multiclass into Ranger around 4th or 5th level.

[DEMON]

Swift Hunter is the archetypal mundane archer. It lets you toss a lot of damage dice around in combat, and you get bonus feats and loads of skill points to round out the build. You'd typically start as a Scout and multiclass into Ranger around 4th or 5th level.

There are of course also more scout-y, less ranger-y variations on the build, but are generally considered weaker.

it lacks bluff as skill.. but that's a minor issue, maybe..

Any particular reason you need bluff as a class skill?

[dehro]

There are of course also more scout-y, less ranger-y variations on the build, but are generally considered weaker.



Any particular reason you need bluff as a class skill?

Mostly because nobody else so far seems inclined towards the face role and either way I'm going to place my scores, charisma isn't going to be up there, and my gaming group has spent considerable time being fooled by all sorts of shady characters. Having a chance for a little payback, albeit with a different DM and in a different campaign is appealing

[Flickerdart]

You can actually make a pretty respectable Charisma-based archer. You don't get much in the way of skills, but a Paladin with Ranged Smite Evil and Divine Might can put out some pretty nasty hurt. I like going into Divine Crusader afterwards for the War domain and later the Holy Warrior feat, which adds another static damage bonus (up to +9). Killoren as a base race gives you another type of smite, for even more smiting!

Or you can try your hand at throwing - Bloodstorm Blade is a perennial favourite.

[Sian]

Killoren (or whatever else you fancy which have fey type) with Charming The Arrow might be an interesting place to start for an archer looking to pull face duty

[Flickerdart]

Killoren (or whatever else you fancy which have fey type) with Charming The Arrow might be an interesting place to start for an archer looking to pull face duty

Killorens' Destroyer aspect gives you a sweet Smite, so I would definitely go with them for CHArchers. Use the +2 LA to score some nifty template for a big fat CHA boost.

[dehro]

Killoren Scout seems to be my favourite option, so far.. I know it's not exactly what I started with, but that was never set in stone to begin with... and I find the concept of a killoren scout rather intriguing.

[Sian]

another just as interesting twist would be Half-Fey Something (Human for flexibility?) as your LA+2, giving you fly (good), a reasonable stat boost for this kind of character, and Charm Person as an at will SLA (and type: fey)

[Darrin]

Killoren Scout seems to be my favourite option, so far.. I know it's not exactly what I started with, but that was never set in stone to begin with... and I find the concept of a killoren scout rather intriguing.

I'd still strongly recommend going Swift Hunter. Something like:

Race: Killoren
1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion)
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Rapid Shot. Bonus: Point Blank Shot.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel).
7) Ranger 4.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Feat: Greater Manyshot (XPH). Bonus: Manyshot.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel.
11) Ranger 7.
12) Ranger 8. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior).
13) Ranger 9.
14) Ranger 10.
15) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: Improved Precise Shot.
16) Ranger 12.
17) Ranger 13.
18) Ranger 14. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
19) Ranger 15.
20) Ranger 16.

[defiantdan]

I feel like some of the archer problems should be address. D&D is a fantasy game but it is built on some wonky mechanics. Melee uberchargers have an abundance of ways of making their attacks do tons of damage and thus warranting their existence in the action economy. Archers though prominent in fiction don't get that much love in easy to get mechanics. with out access to hank's energy bow and a mix of class dipping, dragon mag and pathfinder stuff making an archer that actually warrants a spot in the adventure party without becoming a waste of space is difficult. It's better for the party and your optimization ceiling to go with something like a zen archery cloistered cleric. you can skill monkey and shoot but you aren't a one trick pony. You'd be able to summon, heal, perform essential knowledge checks, dispel. you won't solo but you will have essential tools to help the whole party succeed.

[dehro]

I'd still strongly recommend going Swift Hunter. Something like:

Race: Killoren
1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion)
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Rapid Shot. Bonus: Point Blank Shot.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel).
7) Ranger 4.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Feat: Greater Manyshot (XPH). Bonus: Manyshot.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel.
11) Ranger 7.
12) Ranger 8. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior).
13) Ranger 9.
14) Ranger 10.
15) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: Improved Precise Shot.
16) Ranger 12.
17) Ranger 13.
18) Ranger 14. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
19) Ranger 15.
20) Ranger 16.

is there a special reason to place the scout/ranger levels in this exact order?

where would this build leave me in terms of trapfinding, disabling and such, and being the "face"??

[Sian]

trapfinding and disabling only really need 1 level of trapfinding class, rest is purely skill dependent

[Flickerdart]

is there a special reason to place the scout/ranger levels in this exact order?

where would this build leave me in terms of trapfinding, disabling and such, and being the "face"??

I like Scout 1/Ranger 2/Scout +3 for the start of a Swift Hunter - you want to take your first level in Scout because of the extra skill points and Trapfinding, then get your BAB and bonus feats from Ranger as soon as you can, and most importantly, align your 4th level of Scout with level 6 so you can take Improved Skirmish as soon as you have Swift Hunter instead of waiting until level 9 or 10. You can replace one level of Ranger with Barbarian if you can stomach the dip - Whirling Frenzy is just too juicy.

[dehro]

I see.. thank you.
and no, I won't be dipping, lol.

the build seems promising

STR 8
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 11
CHA 10

my DM thinks I should swap INT and CON.. I like the extra INT for skillmonkey purposes, but 16 CON (at 4th level) is appealing too..

[Sian]

as an archer, if the difference bewteen con 12 and con16 is saving your ass at any point, stuff have gone very wrong already, on either a strategic or tactical level

[Flickerdart]

It depends on what magic item availability is like in this campaign, and how well your front line does its job.

Hit points increase retroactively from CON bonuses, even temporary ones, but skill points aren't affected by a Headband of Intellect. Thus, having a +2 (and after level 4, +3) in INT will be more helpful. Skirmish will also boost your AC, so you will (theoretically) not be getting hit as much.

On the other hand, having more CON is always a good thing. I would recommend seeing what skills your allies have covered - 8+INT is a lot of skill points, and you might actually find yourself not needing more than 9 per level.

[DEMON]

I feel like some of the archer problems should be address. D&D is a fantasy game but it is built on some wonky mechanics. Melee uberchargers have an abundance of ways of making their attacks do tons of damage and thus warranting their existence in the action economy. Archers though prominent in fiction don't get that much love in easy to get mechanics. with out access to hank's energy bow and a mix of class dipping, dragon mag and pathfinder stuff making an archer that actually warrants a spot in the adventure party without becoming a waste of space is difficult. It's better for the party and your optimization ceiling to go with something like a zen archery cloistered cleric. you can skill monkey and shoot but you aren't a one trick pony. You'd be able to summon, heal, perform essential knowledge checks, dispel. you won't solo but you will have essential tools to help the whole party succeed.

Not saying there aren't any issues with archery, but suggesting a Tier 1 replacement for everything (okay, not entirely true, since you're fine with ubercharging) is the Powergamers solutions, invalidating, like, 4/5 of the classes in game, if not more.

A golf bag of special material arrows at low-mid levels, followed up with Force and Splitting weapon enchantments helps a lot with improving the effectivity of archery, regardless of class, feats or special abilities.

Serpentstongue arrows are dirt cheap and good against, among other things, zombies (and ropes, but zombies are usually a more common target for most archers). Non-magical cold iron arrows are also dirt cheap, so making all your "mundane" arrows of the cold iron serpentstongue variety is a good way to deal with some DR early on.

Of course, if you're surrounded by a bunch of highly optimized high tier players in a campaign with an equally high power level, then by all means the Zen Archery Cloistered Cleric is a much better option.

is there a special reason to place the scout/ranger levels in this exact order?

where would this build leave me in terms of trapfinding, disabling and such, and being the "face"??

You're perfectly set up for trapfinding/disabling, not so much for being a face. Quite frankly, if you're going the Swift Hunter route, you should just give up on being a face. Those classes are not built for that role and your rolls are not favoring too many different roles. As such, I'd ditch CHA and up the STR, as now you're gonna get a damage penalty from low STR.

[Sian]

if being dead set on playing face as well, Swift Ambusher might be a better go with something among the lines of Scout 3/4 + Rogue x, drops a tiny bit in the offensive department (no forth iteration), but gaining the ability to sneak attack every now and again, OR the ability to gain a ton of feats via Martial Rogue, and a couple more skill points that can be used on face duties