General Shadowrun Questions

[TeChameleon]

So, for a game I'm GMing the party is up against toxics, and while so far they've been up against a lot of summoners, that just hasn't been working out, because we have ONE mage. Everyone else hasn't had much to do, and I've had to dumb down a few encounters to prevent things from going topsy turvy.

Anyway, I was thinking of throwing some mystic adepts at them. Idea being sorta avatar style martial artists who happen to throw radioactive fireballs as part of their martial arts.

Only I know next to nothing about Adepts and how to make one a decent challenge. Any tips?

I think the previous posters have covered adept-building pretty well. Another thought is to possibly houserule a few things- I know there's been a lot of argument as to whether or not Stick-n'-Shock qualifies as elemental damage in the magical sense (so as to bypass spirits' resistances); if you just say yes, it is, all of a sudden your taser-equipped mundanes have a chance of doing some damage to the hostile spirits.

Otherwise, what I've done with my almost-entirely-magicless group is simply to have the magical stuff be set up in a way that they can deal with. For example, they ran across a glyphic circle, and proceeded to turn it into a glyph-less crater with a few well-placed grenades, preventing a future magical plot-problem, and simply used deductive skills, legwork, and tech's tendency to be hard on illusions to defeat a mystic maze.

[Eldest]

Where is martial arts described in 4e? I've looked through street magic and the aniversery edition of the game, I haven't found it, and I'm doing a face adapt who solves problems with her tongue or her fists. Mostly the talking so far, but for later, I want to beef up the punching part. Further, any suggestions for having her be a better information gatherer? She's got a few contacts (not a huge number because I wanted her to have just moved to the city recently), astral vision, and a decent amount of perception. Anything else needed for a detective?

[Dimers]

Where is martial arts described in 4e? I've looked through street magic and the aniversery edition of the game, I haven't found it, and I'm doing a face adapt who solves problems with her tongue or her fists. Mostly the talking so far, but for later, I want to beef up the punching part.

Martial arts are near the end of the book Arsenal. There are two main components to them. First, for a 5 BP Positive Quality you can get special bonus, usually +1 to one kind of defense or +1 damage with one class of attack. There are a few other options like "Take Aim as a free action" or "+1 Infiltration". You may have up to four of these Qualities, and they don't all have to be from the same martial arts style. Then after you've learned a martial art, for 2 BP apiece, you can learn special maneuvers, actions you can take usually-but-not-always in combat. You can buy up to 2 maneuvers for each Martial Arts Quality you bought.

Arsenal also spends a few pages on optional fiddly rules for combat, a lot of which make sense -- like huge-Strength characters having an easier time handling recoil.

Further, any suggestions for having her be a better information gatherer? She's got a few contacts (not a huge number because I wanted her to have just moved to the city recently), astral vision, and a decent amount of perception. Anything else needed for a detective?

Tons of knowledges and languages. 'Softs are fine in most cases, though the prices for knowsofts are much higher in Anniversary than in the basic book. Commlinks include chip slots, so to access the 'soft you'd just need a sim module and trode net.

A lot of different sensors are handy for gathering info, too, like chemsniffers and laser mics.

[Taet]

The group got mostly together again for trying out the character builds. We went through Food Fight with no messes. It was so odd the GM just read us choices from the messes options after we were done. That was almost fun enough just hearing about it by itself. And after how terrible he rolled for perception and initiative he needed to have some fun too.

Oh and golentan Sea Plus Plus was suggested for an ocean shaman pun. Our group is full of older players.

[golentan]

The group got mostly together again for trying out the character builds. We went through Food Fight with no messes. It was so odd the GM just read us choices from the messes options after we were done. That was almost fun enough just hearing about it by itself. And after how terrible he rolled for perception and initiative he needed to have some fun too.

Oh and golentan Sea Plus Plus was suggested for an ocean shaman pun. Our group is full of older players.

A pretty good one, thank you! I settled on Djinn a while back (Alcohol/Gin/Water Spirits) and a reference to some of her middle-eastern heritage.

Oh, figured I'd mention here, I'm playing Shadowrun Chronicles and it doesn't stink so far, though it's a bit too focused on the tactical combat rather than rewarding prepwork, and it's laggy. Still, it's nice to see what's been going on in Boston, and it's getting me in a shadowrun mood even when my game group isn't meeting... Not sure I'd recommend it yet, but it's interesting...

[golentan]

Any advice on finding a map of a fairly large, moderately secure corporate research compound? I'm looking for the sort of place that you put out in the countryside rather than a central arcology or urban environment, relying more on isolation and walls to protect it than constant security patrols but still with a security presence behind the cameras. Not a big, AAA facility, but the sort of place that might be associated with A or AA ranked players (A preferably, the backstory of the run is reliant on the corp not having Extraterritoriality, which IIRC kicks in at AA status?).

[DigoDragon]

Any advice on finding a map of a fairly large, moderately secure corporate research compound?

I tended to use Google Maps for that kind of stuff. Look up a computer or science-y company and they might have some out-of-the-way places you can crop and print out.

[Alberic Strein]

Besides biocompatibility, is there a way to reduce the cost of cyberware for Street Sams? Should I make him an adept, pay him the way of the burnout and have it stack with biocompatibility?

[The Random NPC]

A cybersuite is the only thing I can think of, but other than the 6 listed ones, you'd need GM approval.

[LibraryOgre]

So, let's say I have a Pocket Secretary, but I'm hopeless with computers. I can't handle the settings, I'm bad at e-mails, and my calendar is fairly atrocious.

What sort of system would I need set up? Design me an expert system that I can hand to my thumb-fingered, tech-inept character to be a real pocket secretary.

[Morty]

Shadowrun's setting interests me, and I'd like to play it, but I'm looking at character creation for 5e right now and the impression I get is that of impenetrability. Is it just me, or is this system way more complicated than it needs to be? The skill groups kind of turned me off, in particular.

[LibraryOgre]

Shadowrun's setting interests me, and I'd like to play it, but I'm looking at character creation for 5e right now and the impression I get is that of impenetrability. Is it just me, or is this system way more complicated than it needs to be? The skill groups kind of turned me off, in particular.

Shadowrun has always been an exceedingly high crunch system.

[DigoDragon]

Shadowrun has always been an exceedingly high crunch system.

Especially when Riggers run over opponents with their vehicles.


Which reminds me of a thing-- an old friend from a past campaign and I couldn't remember how we used to run this particular scenario. A Rigger hot-simmed (is that the right term?) into their vehicle runs over a pedestrian (for whatever reason). Calculating the damage of the pedestrian we can figure out, but we weren't sure if the hot-sim Rigger took damage as well because the vehicle supposedly would take damage striking the pedestrian. I think the answer is yes?

[LibraryOgre]

Especially when Riggers run over opponents with their vehicles.


Which reminds me of a thing-- an old friend from a past campaign and I couldn't remember how we used to run this particular scenario. A Rigger hot-simmed (is that the right term?) into their vehicle runs over a pedestrian (for whatever reason). Calculating the damage of the pedestrian we can figure out, but we weren't sure if the hot-sim Rigger took damage as well because the vehicle supposedly would take damage striking the pedestrian. I think the answer is yes?

If hot sim usually inflicts damage when the vehicle is damaged, then yes. I imagine it would be Mental and feedback-based (I can't picture anyone using Black IC protocols on something like that), but I don't recall the answer.

[Alberic Strein]

Shadowrun's setting interests me, and I'd like to play it, but I'm looking at character creation for 5e right now and the impression I get is that of impenetrability. Is it just me, or is this system way more complicated than it needs to be? The skill groups kind of turned me off, in particular.

A system wuthout explicit rules for dog-paddling? BLASPHEMY!

Shadowrun has always been, like Mark Hall says, a crunchy Mc Crunch system, but 5e adds bad design and organization to the mix. It becomes easier with the help of an automated program (chummer5 for example) or gunning for 4th edition. The Matrix rules will still be hellish though. You may also want to play a couple of games under a somewhat-experienced GM to get some pointers and clarifications.

i never saw skill groups as being particularly obtuse though...

[Morty]

I used the character creation program, yeah. It does help. I might try take a look at 4e instead and compare, but I do prefer the priority system to point-buy.

As far as skills groups go, I'm just not sure what to apply them to. Should I put them in my main skills, or the more auxiliary ones?

[Alberic Strein]

The issue with 5E's priority system is that it's horribly screwed, but anyway in Runner's companion (4E) you have an alternative karma system and a priority system.

For skill groups, it depends. If, in 5E, you have 6+ points to put in skill groups, then put 6 points in your main skills. If you have less, in the secondary skills it goes. I am a big fan of 2 points in athletics myself, for example.

For skills, in 5E, you want 6s. You plan to shoot things? 6 in your favored firearms skill. Sneaking? 6 in infiltration is a classic, if you plan to be an infiltrator, you need palming too (allows you to smuggle in weapons), escape artist (getting out of bounds and, I think, into small spaces) and lockpick (since all locks work with it in 5e), so a 6 in the "sneak" skill group, with some more points in lockpick (who don't belong in it) is useful.

Is that a bit clearer?

Edit: Re-reading my post, no, it doesn't seem a bit clearer, so here is part 2 of my explanations.

Let's take the firearms group skill. It is made of the automatic, longarm, and pistol skill (but not heavy weapons iirc). These skills all do the same thing, serve the same purpose: operating some specific firearms. It is often a very good idea to specialize in SR, and even moreso in a firearm family.

Automatics gives you access to -relatively- concealable guns, machine pistols, which you may be able to take with you most of the time, though not in the more restricted areas, but also submachine guns, and even assault rifles, the later being military-grade equipment, more than able to take on the usual opposition a shadowrunner face.

For argument's sake, Heavy weapons give you grenade/rocket launchers and assault rifles. They have crazy range, and can be VERY powerful, but are difficult to use (explosions) to carry (forbidden and at least 12 in availability) very expensive to fire, and not stealthy in the least. Grenade launchers give you awesome adaptibility, with plenty of different kinds of grenades too, and are a common upgrade for assault rifles.

Longarms give you shotguns, normal and short-barrelled for close and middle range, with some fully automatic shotguns thrown in the mix to dish out some rather impressive damage, and sniper/sport rifles for fights at extreme range, where no other firearm can be used (grenade/rocket launcher and other assault cannons excepted) while still being sort-of transportable (later in play you'll have access to a collapsible sniper rifle) and not cost-prohibitive.

Pistols do not punch as hard, but have their bonuses. They range from hold-outs to huge revolvers, while also having some guns with burst fire. Hold-outs can be sneaked in ANYWHERE except in a corporate airplane, some of them being undetectable to scanners. Revolvers can only shoot once a round (less of an issue in 5e) and cannot mount a standard silencer, but they are very good at piercing armor for their size. The Slivergun is auto-silenced, undetectable through MAD scanners, and hits unarmored targets VERY hard and has burst fire, making it an excellent riff-raff slaughterer and an excellent gun to bring any and everywhere. The Thunderbolt hits harder, has some decent armor penetration, and is burst fire enabled, making him a good all-around gun. Be careful that light/heavy pistols usually have very low ammo capacity.

So, what do we see? Each "family" has its own area of expertise, but covers enough ground to be used by itself. Having some points in the heavy weapons category (for grenade versatility) on top of your favored firearm family is going to be good, but that's somewhere down the line, and rather secondary, and not in the firearms skill group. At chargen, you don't need 3 firearm families in which you invested equally. Even moreso considering that skill groups prevent you from taking specialties. In other words, unless you know what you are doing, avoid that skill group.

So, my advice is to look at exactly what a skill group gives you (the more skills, the better) and if there is a synergy in the skills, and not a redunduncy.

Socially, not embarassing yourself is taken care of with a couple of points in etiquette, but if you want to really have an impact in social situations, you need to be flexible, weaving threats and compromises, meaning that social skill groups are actually quite good. Too good maybe, since it got split in twain with 5e, with the EVER USEFUL con and two way less used skills in one, and etiquette and negotiation, two other very useful skills, lumped with leadership (which I LOVE but really doesn't fly with a lot of GMs) in another. My bet would be to take the "influence" skill group and then buy "con" anyway with normal skill points if you are planning on being a face.

If your character has some pretty nice physical stats, then the athletics skill group comes with: running (you can't spell shadowrunner with "run" after all. All jokes excepted, it doesn't come up often unless you want it to, but it's never useless) swimming (no overlapping with the other skills, and while uncommon, it can save your butt) and gymnastics (which is quite useful and serves as a dodge skill). Meaning that this skill group is actually useful if you roll a Street Sam or Physad, but if you only have a high agi score, you could probably manage with only gymnastics, which really is the crown of this skill group.

Hand to hand combat, however, suffers pretty much like firearms. The dodge skill (gymnastics) is not in it, it is, usually, not that used, and you really, really don't need to be able to kilm/disable your opponent with three different kinds of weapons at close range. One is usually more than enough.

Well, the list goes on and on, really, but it should give you a general idea what to look for:

How many skills (more=better)? Synergy between these skills(good!)? Redunduncy (avoid!)?

Tempered by the overall focus of your character.

A few games will do wonder in making you understand which skills are useful and which are not. The rest is personal preference.

Is it a bit clearer now?

[Morty]

What I'm getting from it is that I should invest normal points to maximize my longarms, grenades and other skills I want to focus on, and use the skill groups to give myself a decent base of competence in stuff like athletics and social skills. If that's what you meant, then it's clear.

[LibraryOgre]

What I'm getting from it is that I should invest normal points to maximize my longarms, grenades and other skills I want to focus on, and use the skill groups to give myself a decent base of competence in stuff like athletics and social skills. If that's what you meant, then it's clear.

That's how I do it. If I'm not a face, I don't need tons of interaction skills... but I'm hosed if I don't have at least the basics. Picking up 1 point in the interaction skill group lets me come across as "not incompetent", even if I'm not that good.

[Dimers]

So, let's say I have a Pocket Secretary, but I'm hopeless with computers. I can't handle the settings, I'm bad at e-mails, and my calendar is fairly atrocious.

What sort of system would I need set up? Design me an expert system that I can hand to my thumb-fingered, tech-inept character to be a real pocket secretary.

Give us a budget? Because there's a wide spectrum from "usable for basic functions without problems" to "invisibly finds solutions to problems you didn't even know you were going to have, while simultaneously upgrading its own components and fending off competent hacker attacks".

Also, which edition is this for, is the character a standard metahuman, and do they have a cyber interface like a datajack?

[LibraryOgre]

Give us a budget? Because there's a wide spectrum from "usable for basic functions without problems" to "invisibly finds solutions to problems you didn't even know you were going to have, while simultaneously upgrading its own components and fending off competent hacker attacks".

Also, which edition is this for, is the character a standard metahuman, and do they have a cyber interface like a datajack?

Get creative. ;-) I had a random thought and wanted to see what folks would come up with.

[Lord Torath]

2nd Edition question: If a physical adept has the Quick Draw power, can she fire two arrows per initiative pass from her Compound Bow?

[comicshorse]

2nd Edition question: If a physical adept has the Quick Draw power, can she fire two arrows per initiative pass from her Compound Bow?

Tricky. The rules aren't exactly clear. Reading them I'd say technically no. Before you can fire the bow you must use the ' ready weapons' action and unlike a gun it seems to me that having fired an arrow you are going to have use another 'ready weapons' action to knock another arrow.
So a Phys. Ad. can ready his bow and fire it in the same Pass. Or fire a readied arrow and knock a new one ready for the next Initiative pass but not fire it twice in one Pass.
BUT this is 2nd Edition which over-priced Phys. Ad. powers and Quick Draw costs 3 points which is half your magic ( and bows are nicely fitting with the martial artist vibe of Phys. Ads.) So I'd either let the P.C. fire twice or keep to the RAW but lower the cost of the power

[Saambell]

Does anyone have some advice for a new group starting Shadowrun 4A? I am a new GM putting together a game for some new players. I've read the backstory bits in the rulebook and read some of the novels. I plan to read through the Combat, Magic, and Hacking chapters before starting, but I have made several characters before i decided to run the game so I know roughly how that works.
What's a good way to introduce new players to the setting? Any big things to avoid as a new player? anything a new GM shouldn't do that might scare away new players?

I am asking them for what kind of game they want, such as do they want a lot of shooting action, do they want sneaking around, do they want a big adventure, do they want a limited playing field. I compared it to movies. Do they want a Die Hard where they are in a limited area and each session is taking on a few enemies in a limited area in an action movie,compared to a Oceans 11 where they have skills and not a lot of action, but planning and guile win them the money. Do they want a thing like James Bond where they do a combo of guile, action, and planning. I told them to think of a movie which they think would match the play style they want. Is this a good approach to finding play styles and game planning? As in base an adventure off a movie, but in the shadowrun setting.

(A side note on a conversation a while back: when you were talking about corps getting a face print, someone noted that corps might not share data. This is indeed the case. A corp is likely to have its own records and does not share them with other corps. It even notes that runners tend to learn which areas are under which corps watch and jump to and from the ones that will get them the least trouble.)

[Morty]

In 4e, is it normal to spend half of your karma/Build Points on attributes?

[Milodiah]

In 4e, is it normal to spend half of your karma/Build Points on attributes?

About. Especially if you're building a 300-pointer, like my group tends to do.

[DigoDragon]

In 4e, is it normal to spend half of your karma/Build Points on attributes?

For me it is.

If I'm playing a mage there are a few useful stats to take. When not a mage, I do like having a decent Charisma score whatever my build, cause talking my way out of a fight is a whole lot less messy than shooting my opponents.

[LibraryOgre]

In 4e, is it normal to spend half of your karma/Build Points on attributes?

Yes, because attributes are terribly valuable. You have tons of skills, but only 8 or 9 attributes. Your good attributes mean you've got a higher aggregate dice pool with a wider variety of abilities.

[golentan]

Yes, because attributes are terribly valuable. You have tons of skills, but only 8 or 9 attributes. Your good attributes mean you've got a higher aggregate dice pool with a wider variety of abilities.

Two runners with the same time...

[Dimers]

Yes, because attributes are terribly valuable. You have tons of skills, but only 8 or 9 attributes. Your good attributes mean you've got a higher aggregate dice pool with a wider variety of abilities.

And in addition to boosting skills, attributes do a lot of things that skills don't -- dodge ranged attacks, soak damage, let you wear beefier armor, help you remember stuff, yada yada.

I almost always spend the max 50 BP on equipment, no matter what kind of character I'm playing. It's just a more optimal way to get the same result. Little hard to explain in many cases, though.