Incidental Straightness in the Comic

[SirKazum]

I don't think it's sad at all. In a world where multiple sapient species exist, and where many of them can even interbreed successfully, inter-species relationships should be completely unremarkable to everyone but bigots.(...)

Annnnd there you have it. Relationships between members of visibly different ethnicities within the same species (humans) were scandalous not that long ago, and even today lots of people will look at you kinda askew. It can be argued (and it has been argued) that the same logic applies to homosexuality and other sexual expressions that differ from the well-accepted norm. So I think it actually is a very pertinent point in this context. Rich could probably show, say, Roy getting it on with a lizardfolk that's clearly identified as female (not even counting relationships between humanoids that, let's face it, at the end of the day are just humans who look a little funny) and the reaction, if any, would be orders of magnitude milder than if he showed a couple of human characters of the same gender holding hands.

[ti'esar]

Exactly that. There's nothing wrong with interspecies relationships, but it's kind of depressing that fantasy and science fiction (and again, not just talking about OOTS here) have historically been much more willing to show them then same-sex relationships.

[littlebum2002]

There's nothing wrong with interspecies relationships

This sounds SO bad out of context.

[martianmister]

Exactly that. There's nothing wrong with interspecies relationships, but it's kind of depressing that fantasy and science fiction (and again, not just talking about OOTS here) have historically been much more willing to show them then same-sex relationships.

It's because they are interracial relationships.

[littlebum2002]

It's because they are interracial relationships.

D&d misuses the term "race". Humans and goblins are different species, not different races. Goblins and hobgoblins might be different races of the same species, but we don't know enough about their taxonomy to know for sure.

[ti'esar]

D&d misuses the term "race". Humans and goblins are different species, not different races. Goblins and hobgoblins might be different races of the same species, but we don't know enough about their taxonomy to know for sure.

Actually, I think that's a reference to the semi-serious argument floating around out there that, since basically everything in D&D can interbreed with everything else, they're really all just different races of a single species.

(Not that this is relevant to my original point, much less the thread as a whole).

[golentan]

This sounds SO bad out of context.

Only if you're assuming it implies nonsapient participants (which given it's a fantasy setting isn't implicit) or, as mentioned, have some bigotry associated...

Many people seem to be very much on the side of Humanity **** Yeah! to draw from 1d4chan... There's an assumption about human (or in some cases, like often shows with elves, demihuman) superiority over all other comers, and that a human failing to hold that sort of dominant position is doing it wrong... It creeps me out, and makes me worried about the AIs and artificial life forms which I'm sure are right around the corner (I'm afraid that people are going to abuse them). And part of that is a view that a human (or some sorts of demihuman, who let's be honest are still written as humans in funny makeup) who falls in love with someone who is something else is debasing themselves, that it's morally wrong, that it's equivalent to bestiality. If they're humanlike but pretty, it's okay (again with the elves), but a human and a goblin, or even worse, a kobold? Gasp! Or half orcs being usually the results of rape (horrific assumption 1 there), with the implication that it's always an orc raping a human, because what human would debase themselves by being with an orc (assumption 2)?

[SirKazum]

Going back to the original topic, I too wouldn't count Xykon's virgins as incidental straightness. Nothing in the comic or in Xykon's dialogue explicitly suggests those virgins are female. Sure, I agree it obviously sounds like they're female (or at least that's how it reads to me), but that assumption doesn't come from the comic itself, it comes from cultural context. So I wouldn't pin that on Rich, it falls on society instead. And the fact that Xykon hits on the waitress doesn't decide that issue either - he could just as well be bisexual.

Which brings up the aforementioned issue of bisexual erasure. I think it's hard to decide whether or not a character is bisexual when they've displayed only one type of sexuality (i.e. hetero or homo) on-screen, other than if the character comes out and reveals that status (such as Haley). So I think what we should be looking for here is heterosexual or homosexual behavior, not necessarily orientation or sexual identity, because the latter wouldn't be very easy to discern for most characters.

[martianmister]

D&d misuses the term "race".

I don't see any differences between fantasy races and real world races.

[Lvl45DM!]

I don't see any differences between fantasy races and real world races.

Elves have +2 Dex and -2 Con, Halflings have small size and Dwarves have stonecunning.
No race of humans actually has an inherent bonus to any stat, while some may have lower or higher average size, there is enough variation that humans are sized the same, and while some groups may have cultural preferences its not an integral part of them its added after the fact.
Thats the difference between fantasy races and real world races.

[Lord Raziere]

Only if you're assuming it implies nonsapient participants (which given it's a fantasy setting isn't implicit) or, as mentioned, have some bigotry associated...

Many people seem to be very much on the side of Humanity **** Yeah! to draw from 1d4chan... There's an assumption about human (or in some cases, like often shows with elves, demihuman) superiority over all other comers, and that a human failing to hold that sort of dominant position is doing it wrong... It creeps me out, and makes me worried about the AIs and artificial life forms which I'm sure are right around the corner (I'm afraid that people are going to abuse them). And part of that is a view that a human (or some sorts of demihuman, who let's be honest are still written as humans in funny makeup) who falls in love with someone who is something else is debasing themselves, that it's morally wrong, that it's equivalent to bestiality. If they're humanlike but pretty, it's okay (again with the elves), but a human and a goblin, or even worse, a kobold? Gasp! Or half orcs being usually the results of rape (horrific assumption 1 there), with the implication that it's always an orc raping a human, because what human would debase themselves by being with an orc (assumption 2)?

Agreed. I've noticed this attitude as well. sure, it seems a legit way of thinking because humans are the only species in real life proven to be sentient and sapient, but I'd rather not assume so quickly that humans are special out of the gate just because we seem to be the only ones in the universe so far, when the universe has no obligation to let any of the assumptions we currently hold to be true to remain so. I'd rather be cautious say that humans are not that special and that we're no better than any other sapient species, no matter how improbable, hypothetical, fantastical or imagined their existence may be. y'know, just on the off-chance that something like sapient robots or aliens actually come a-knocking in ANY of our lifetimes. we may be alone in the universe, but I'd rather not hold an attitude that would be potentially harmful to any other species just in case we aren't, y'know?

as for this thread in general:

/tiphat to this entire thread. representation as we all know is not an attack. its not a requirement, but its always nice to at least make the attempt. it is after all, trying to better see the truth of things, and writing stories is going on a journey to find truth, in my eyes.

[littlebum2002]

I don't see any differences between fantasy races and real world races.

Really? You really think a creature that's 5' tall and lives to be 300 and another that is 3' tall and lives to be 90 can belong to the same species? I would love to hear about even one species on earth with that much variation.

Well, "race" is an actual biological term. Some species have minor subspecies variations which are known as races. ( homo sapiens, contrary to popular belief, only has one race. All humans regardless of skin color belong to the subspecies homo sapiens sapiens).

Variations between races are very minor. If you have one creature which is 5' tall and lives to be 300 and another which is 3' tall and lives to be 90, that's not even CLOSE to being in the same species. It would be a stretch to even be in the same genus.

Only if you're assuming it implies nonsapient participants (which given it's a fantasy setting isn't implicit)

Well, I did say "out of context", and when you remove the context of talking about a fantasy setting, in the real world the only possible explanation is a non-sapient species

[golentan]

Hypothetically, the humanoids could all be members of a ring species (orcs and elves are clearly opposite ends of a ring species with humans, both being able to produce fertile viable offspring with the mediating group) But yeah, they're very much differentiated beyond anything remotely comparable on earth and if it weren't for the trope of half human offspring... it's pretty obviously something that doesn't make a lot of sense...

[Marlowe]

Could somebody explain to me how Bandana's "breakin' a lady's arm" comment says anything about her sexuality?

It says a fair bit about her that her vocal response to a dangerous situation is to comment on the ungentlemanly nature of Tarquin's behaviour as opposed to focusing on the threat he poses, but I'm not sure how it's relevant here.

[oppyu]

You'd know if you read my essay on Rich's new Tumblr inspired agenda. I titled it 'The Giant Shoving His Big Meaty Social Justice Down Our Throats'.

[golentan]

You'd know if you read my essay on Rich's new Tumblr inspired agenda. I titled it 'The Giant Shoving His Big Meaty Social Justice Down Our Throats'.

Having read some of your previous parody, and being familiar with Poe's Law and some other people saying these exact things without a drop of irony, you might want to consider some way to indicate mockery of the views you're espousing before people jump down your throat. I know you said you don't like blue text, but there has to be something...

[Marlowe]

You'd know if you read my essay on Rich's new Tumblr inspired agenda. I titled it 'The Giant Shoving His Big Meaty Social Justice Down Our Throats'.

I'm not swallowing this.

[oppyu]

Having read some of your previous parody, and being familiar with Poe's Law and some other people saying these exact things without a drop of irony, you might want to consider some way to indicate mockery of the views you're espousing before people jump down your throat. I know you said you don't like blue text, but there has to be something...

It's not a big deal. Every now and then there's a misunderstanding but people usually stop inviting me to choke and die on my heteronormativity in a page or two.

[Marlowe]

No straight answers though. How does the line; "Oh hell no. No way, no how is some crazy old man getting back on our boat after breakin' a ladies arm" foreshadow that Bandana likes her romantic partners to be packing double X chromosomes?

[oppyu]

Um... well, there are gentleman who are possessed of great chivalry and protectiveness when there's a fair lady they'd very much like to hammer like a bent nail. Maybe the same applies to Bandana?

[Marlowe]

...and that's the only explanation you can think of for somebody objecting to violence against a woman?

[oppyu]

It's the only explanation I can think of that would imply Bandana has sex with women.

[Onyavar]

[...]the humanoids could all be members of a ring species (orcs and elves are clearly opposite ends of a ring species with humans, both being able to produce fertile viable offspring with the mediating group)[...]

Weren't the orcs direct descendants from elves, in the old Tolkien setting? If that were the case here also, only the elven sense of beauty and grace (and the orcish sense of strength and weakness, since we're discussing stereotypes) would prevent them from having halforlves.

Gasp! Or half orcs being usually the results of rape (horrific assumption 1 there), with the implication that it's always an orc raping a human, because what human would debase themselves by being with an orc (assumption 2)?

Well, Therkla's parents are clearly NOT this. Me so in love. So let's not dwell on this, even if YOU assumed a "usually there.

[golentan]

Weren't the orcs direct descendants from elves, in the old Tolkien setting? If that were the case here also, only the elven sense of beauty and grace (and the orcish sense of strength and weakness, since we're discussing stereotypes) would prevent them from having halforlves.

Well, Therkla's parents are clearly NOT this. Me so in love. So let's not dwell on this, even if YOU assumed a "usually there.

Aye, order of the stick is more open to representation of things that I approve of, but it's called out very strongly in the race description depending on edition,

[Cizak]

: It's like I'm some sort of... racist!
: Well, you do hate humans a lot...
: Yes, but I hate humans of all breed equally. That makes me a speciesist.

[Oneris]

Variations between races are very minor. If you have one creature which is 5' tall and lives to be 300 and another which is 3' tall and lives to be 90, that's not even CLOSE to being in the same species. It would be a stretch to even be in the same genus.

If it weren't for the lifespan disparity, which suggests deep physiological differences in organ and tissue efficiency, I'd assume that the D&D races were simply 1 or 2 species with high genetic diversity, like dogs.

[littlebum2002]

Hypothetically, the humanoids could all be members of a ring species (orcs and elves are clearly opposite ends of a ring species with humans, both being able to produce fertile viable offspring with the mediating group) But yeah, they're very much differentiated beyond anything remotely comparable on earth and if it weren't for the trope of half human offspring... it's pretty obviously something that doesn't make a lot of sense...

Actually, considering how there's no "quarter elves" or "quarter orcs" (at least to my knowledge) they might indeed be separate breeds and the offspring are usually sterile hybrids.

Except for very rare occasions where d&d talks about "distant heritage", but I can only think of a handful of cases, and the probable explanation there is "it be magic".

(However, there are rare cases in our world of hybrids, even usually sterile mules, breeding, so this could be the case as well)

Well, Therkla's parents are clearly NOT this. Me so in love. So let's not dwell on this, even if YOU assumed a "usually there.

I don't think he's saying HE usually assumes this, he's referring to the fact that most D&D half-orcs have an ugly backstory. I'm pretty sure it even spells this out in their description, but I'm not positive

In fact, that's why the joke in that strip works, because "ugly backstory" of a half orc usually involves rape, but in this case it involved taboo love, which to Therkla was ugly as well.

[Keltest]

Actually, considering how there's no "quarter elves" or "quarter orcs" (at least to my knowledge" they might indeed be separate breeds. Except for very rare occasions where d&d talks about "distant heritage", but I can only think of a handful of cases, and the probable explanation there is "it be magic"

It depends on the world, generally. People descended from elves or orcs are generally visible as such for a few generations at least, or otherwise see effects. Humans with an elven great-grandfather might live long and age well. A human with an orcish great-grandfather is going to be relatively large and will have a thicker brow than normal.

I don't think he's saying HE usually assumes this, he's referring to the fact that most D&D half-orcs have an ugly backstory.

In fact, that's why the joke in that strip works, because "ugly backstory" of a half orc usually involves rape, but in this case it involved taboo love, which to Therkla was ugly as well.

I think its funnier if the orcs are thinking the same thing Therkla is. Continues the running gag of orcs (and Thog) being like children.

[Fawkes]

Elves have +2 Dex and -2 Con, Halflings have small size and Dwarves have stonecunning.
No race of humans actually has an inherent bonus to any stat, while some may have lower or higher average size, there is enough variation that humans are sized the same, and while some groups may have cultural preferences its not an integral part of them its added after the fact.
Thats the difference between fantasy races and real world races.

No race of humans, sure. But we can look at other species of animals (for example, canis lupus) that have drastically different sub-species and breeds that can interbreed. For that example, you don't have to go outside DND - riding dogs and wolves have different statblocks, but they're the same species.

[goto124]

Exactly that. There's nothing wrong with interspecies relationships, but it's kind of depressing that fantasy and science fiction (and again, not just talking about OOTS here) have historically been much more willing to show them then same-sex relationships.

Probably because lizardfolk don't exist IRL and thus escape RL implications? While homosexual relationships do suffer from its existance IRL?