Upcoming Screw Attack Death Battle

[Traab]

Gaara doesn't get prep time if Toph doesn't. Additionally, most death battle rounds take place in reasonably neutral territory both can be reasonably at-home in where they have access to everything they need to fight to their fullest. So Toph is guaranteed to run across a decent amount of metal by default while Gaara isn't starting in the Sahara.

Gaara is terrifying, at baseline Naruto levels, where he was introduced as a rookie in a setting where any defensive abilities are reasonably rare. But he's not fighting another ninja, he's fighting someone used to facing off against earth shielded opponents and is capable of breaking through them as a matter of course. If at any point he's on the defensive it becomes a game he's not used to playing but his opponent is.



Which is nice, but useless in a death battle, which starts with the opponents just becoming aware of each other and at reasonable distance most of the time, and only having what they have on them or can acquire reasonably. He's not facing hidden enemies or someone ignorant to the properties of earth. He's facing an opponent who's at least as experienced as him with the physical properties of earth. Which is a factor only one of them is used to.

I didnt mean pre fight prep, I mean it takes him time to grind the earth around him to sand. My basic point being, he would be stuck with his gourd amount of sand (still plenty enough for attack and defense) until he can grind a flood of it underground. Just his starting amount is enough to defend himself and attack at the same time, so he wont start at a disadvantage, its just, the longer the fight goes on for, the more material he has to work with. As for toph and her wealth of experience, her entire source of attack and defense (aside from metal bending) revolves around using the stuff garra regularly grinds down for his own weaponry. Every block of earth and stone she launches at him? Caught and ground to sand. Every spike of earth? Ground to sand, every boulder she surrounds herself with to protect from attack? Ground to sand. Earth is probably the absolute WORST method of attacking garra, its like throwing kunai at TenTen. She would thank you for the extra ammo and proceed to use it against you.

[Jayngfet]

I didnt mean pre fight prep, I mean it takes him time to grind the earth around him to sand. My basic point being, he would be stuck with his gourd amount of sand (still plenty enough for attack and defense) until he can grind a flood of it underground. Just his starting amount is enough to defend himself and attack at the same time, so he wont start at a disadvantage, its just, the longer the fight goes on for, the more material he has to work with. As for toph and her wealth of experience, her entire source of attack and defense (aside from metal bending) revolves around using the stuff garra regularly grinds down for his own weaponry. Every block of earth and stone she launches at him? Caught and ground to sand. Every spike of earth? Ground to sand, every boulder she surrounds herself with to protect from attack? Ground to sand. Earth is probably the absolute WORST method of attacking garra, its like throwing kunai at TenTen. She would thank you for the extra ammo and proceed to use it against you.

...did it not occur to you that the one with ground based sonar would be able to tell that someone is affecting the ground? Like he's not gonna catch her by surprise if he does a thing she can see coming. Especially if he doesn't know how she "sees" and doesn't KNOW she knows.

That's the thing you aren't getting. Until he actually does that or goes airborn she can see everything he does. She can tell his sand doubles are made of sand. His sand shield is dense enough to bend through. Any attacks from underground would be detected the instant they move the earth at any level, from any angle. There is no super secret sneak attack angle he's able to make that he actually uses right off, and he's not going to catch her by surprise by not doing juitsu she's never fought and has no reason to expect a pattern of.

Gaara doesn't know a damn thing about what this character is capable of and if he treats her like any other ninja he's fought, he's going to run into instant pitfalls, then take the defensive in a way that this specific character is geared to taking apart instantly. If the fight lasts longer than a minute or two he has the victory but it still has to last that long.

[Durkoala]

I still want to see Godzilla vs. Cthulhu.

Godzilla is declared winner by default when Cthulhu sleeps in for a few millenia.

[Traab]

...did it not occur to you that the one with ground based sonar would be able to tell that someone is affecting the ground? Like he's not gonna catch her by surprise if he does a thing she can see coming. Especially if he doesn't know how she "sees" and doesn't KNOW she knows.

That's the thing you aren't getting. Until he actually does that or goes airborn she can see everything he does. She can tell his sand doubles are made of sand. His sand shield is dense enough to bend through. Any attacks from underground would be detected the instant they move the earth at any level, from any angle. There is no super secret sneak attack angle he's able to make that he actually uses right off, and he's not going to catch her by surprise by not doing juitsu she's never fought and has no reason to expect a pattern of.

Gaara doesn't know a damn thing about what this character is capable of and if he treats her like any other ninja he's fought, he's going to run into instant pitfalls, then take the defensive in a way that this specific character is geared to taking apart instantly. If the fight lasts longer than a minute or two he has the victory but it still has to last that long.

And you seem to be under the impression that the entire earth being ground to sand underneath her feet is something she can do anything about. This isnt a guy charging towards her, it isnt a chunk of stone being hurled at her, its the entire ground under her feet and out the radius of a football field around her being turned into terrain where any millimeter of it can be an attack or defense instantly. That doesnt even consider the havoc all the ground everywhere vibrating and grinding at once would play on her tremor sense. Most earth bender attacks are very linear. A path of earth being overturned as the spike heads towards you then erupts, a chunk of ground lifting in front of the earth bender and flying at his target. Garra isnt like that. His attacks arent necessarily centered on him and can come from all over the place. That makes sensing and blocking them even harder because its an entirely different style of combat than she is used to. She doesnt know a damn thing about HIM either, so if she treats him as a sand based earth bender, she will have a sandy coffin ready for her in short order. It can be the size of a matchbox, so whats left of her will have plenty of room.

[Metahuman1]

I'm reading all of this, and I can't help but think if she does win, it's gonna be a rehash of the aftermath of the Superman/Goku fight. The one were all the DBZ fan's were utterly insistent forever that they had to have gotten it wrong.

[Traab]

I'm reading all of this, and I can't help but think if she does win, it's gonna be a rehash of the aftermath of the Superman/Goku fight. The one were all the DBZ fan's were utterly insistent forever that they had to have gotten it wrong.

It makes sense, this is a fight between two very popular universes, even if the characters chosen arent the flagship ones. And I find that anime fans tend to get very attached to their favorites, so having two very popular anime (stateside at least, I have no clue how they are received overseas) competing like this is bound to bring an absolute poopstorm of arguing.

[Metahuman1]

Honestly I'm under the impression ATLAB has gotten MORE popular as time has moved on, while Naruto and Naruto: Shippuden have gotten far, far less.

[Soras Teva Gee]

And you seem to be under the impression that the entire earth being ground to sand underneath her feet is something she can do anything about. This isnt a guy charging towards her, it isnt a chunk of stone being hurled at her, its the entire ground under her feet and out the radius of a football field around her being turned into terrain where any millimeter of it can be an attack or defense instantly. That doesnt even consider the havoc all the ground everywhere vibrating and grinding at once would play on her tremor sense. Most earth bender attacks are very linear. A path of earth being overturned as the spike heads towards you then erupts, a chunk of ground lifting in front of the earth bender and flying at his target. Garra isnt like that. His attacks arent necessarily centered on him and can come from all over the place. That makes sensing and blocking them even harder because its an entirely different style of combat than she is used to. She doesnt know a damn thing about HIM either, so if she treats him as a sand based earth bender, she will have a sandy coffin ready for her in short order. It can be the size of a matchbox, so whats left of her will have plenty of room.

Why does that matter when Toph can sandbend well enough to create a miniature of Ba Sing Se? I think it reasonable a master sandbender is not at particular disadvantage against another. If she was up against Crocodile maybe unless its ruled she can just bend him solid and smack him.

And unless Toph portrayed some particular vulnerability to sensations through her Seismic Sense (despite being so sensitive she learned to fluidly detect trace amounts of earth in metal) then I don't think you can simply invent the equivalent of a flashy strobe light however much sense you think it makes.

[Traab]

Why does that matter when Toph can sandbend well enough to create a miniature of Ba Sing Se? I think it reasonable a master sandbender is not at particular disadvantage against another. If she was up against Crocodile maybe unless its ruled she can just bend him solid and smack him.

And unless Toph portrayed some particular vulnerability to sensations through her Seismic Sense (despite being so sensitive she learned to fluidly detect trace amounts of earth in metal) then I don't think you can simply invent the equivalent of a flashy strobe light however much sense you think it makes.

Because we have no reason to think she can do anything to take away control of the sand he is manipulating. I ask this seriously, do we ever see earth benders directly taking control of another benders attack? Even if we do, there is a scale issue to deal with as well. She would have to literally create mountains to manipulate the same level of material that garra has demonstrated he can control at once. As for the flashy strobe comment, it wouldnt even be something he does on purpose, but you have to admit, tremor sense would be likely well screwed up and confused by the ground everywhere around her vibrating into sand and moving around under her. It would be like trying to tremor sense during an earthquake. Maybe she could do it, I dont know, I just think that at least it would make it harder to do.

[Legato Endless]

Godzilla is declared winner by default when Cthulhu sleeps in for a few millenia.

No no no. Cthulhu wakes up only to see Godzilla smack him with a steamboat. Cthulhu falls back to sleep. Eons after death has died, the interwebz argue about whether the fight counts since the stars weren't right.

[SiuiS]

Isn't sand, earth?

If water benders can marionette someone by their blood, saying sorry, you can't move a bunch of really small rocks all in contact with each other for arbitrary reasons doesn't seem to fly.

[Lord Raziere]

Isn't sand, earth?

If water benders can marionette someone by their blood, saying sorry, you can't move a bunch of really small rocks all in contact with each other for arbitrary reasons doesn't seem to fly.

they referred to Sandbending and Earthbending as separate arts. its possible to do so, but its probably like Metalbending or Lavabending: it requires more than just normal Earthbending, you need to rethink how you do the art of it a little.

mostly because normal Earthbending is all about solid stances and big rocks and such- its normally not all that flexible. sandbending on the other hand is much more flexible and requires rethinking.

Toph is at a further disadvantage by the fact that she is blind and needs solid ground with tremors to even see, desert absorbs up any tremors, so any sand that comes in the picture would be invisible to her.

that and bloodbending is only possible for like, 99.9% of waterbenders when the moon is full, meaning that most waterbenders can't do it normally. if we're using bloodblending as a comparison, then Toph would have a real hard time bending Gaara's body unless REALLY special conditions just so happened to come into play that Toph wouldn't even know about to slant things in her favor. which would be near deus ex machina levels of bull.

[Metahuman1]

Because we have no reason to think she can do anything to take away control of the sand he is manipulating. I ask this seriously, do we ever see earth benders directly taking control of another benders attack? Even if we do, there is a scale issue to deal with as well. She would have to literally create mountains to manipulate the same level of material that garra has demonstrated he can control at once. As for the flashy strobe comment, it wouldnt even be something he does on purpose, but you have to admit, tremor sense would be likely well screwed up and confused by the ground everywhere around her vibrating into sand and moving around under her. It would be like trying to tremor sense during an earthquake. Maybe she could do it, I dont know, I just think that at least it would make it harder to do.

Yes, we do. Watch the fights with the Dai Li in seasons 2 and 3, and with Gazan and the Dai Li and Kuvira's forces in seasons 3 and 4 of Korra. They show that as a thing that happens. Less often then with water bending, but more so than with fire.

[Zevox]

Later Toph can see sand, thus flying sand user is visible by Toph.

Not if he's actually flying. Toph's sight is a tremorsense ability - if he's not touching the ground at all, she can't pick him up. No, a floating platform doesn't count. She needs a physical connection between her and what she's sensing, or it doesn't work.

She can see vibrations transmitted through sand, and it's still kind of blurry - she has no way to tell what's happening on sand unconnected to her feet.

That was true in the middle of the second season, when she had never been to a sandy area before. As has been mentioned a couple of times now though, she learned to sandbend extremely well by the end of the show. It seems pretty darn unlikely that she could somehow create an intricate sculpture of a whole city out of sand in about a second if she hadn't also gotten the hang of being able to see through sand at least very nearly as well as she can through more solid ground.

they referred to Sandbending and Earthbending as separate arts. its possible to do so, but its probably like Metalbending or Lavabending: it requires more than just normal Earthbending, you need to rethink how you do the art of it a little.

True to an extent, but sandbending seems to have been much easier to figure out than metalbending or lavabending. The sandbenders from the desert in A:TLA aren't indicated to be anything unusual except insofar as they live in the desert. Unlike how Toph had to invent metalbending herself because it was previously thought impossible, and it's not clear if it's an ability every earthbender can learn (in LoK Bolin claims only one in every hundred earthbenders can, though Suyin and Toph seem to think that's not true), or how lavabending seems to be an even rarer ability that definitely not all earthbenders can learn (since even Toph is impressed to learn that Bolin is able to do it, and remarks on how rare that is).

I'd guess it's most likely that sandbending is just different enough from normal earthbending as to require special practice if you've never done it before, but not different enough that any earthbender couldn't do it with a little time to figure it out. And as has been mentioned, Toph did take the time to learn it by the end of A:TLA.

[Metahuman1]

Actually, considering she'd probably figure out near instantly that he uses sand as a primary mode of operations, she'd likely work out handling that rather quickly if he tried to go airborn to her detriment.

Remember the last duel when she was first introduced? Guy Jumped up and threw an attack at her and she senses and read it instantly so that she could step clear of it and counter attack perfectly?

[Prime32]

Remember the last duel when she was first introduced? Guy Jumped up and threw an attack at her and she senses and read it instantly so that she could step clear of it and counter attack perfectly?

You mean the guy who still had to kick off the ground in a way Toph's tremorsense could recognise as a jump, and IIRC who screamed loudly as he was doing it?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Because we have no reason to think she can do anything to take away control of the sand he is manipulating. I ask this seriously, do we ever see earth benders directly taking control of another benders attack? Even if we do, there is a scale issue to deal with as well. She would have to literally create mountains to manipulate the same level of material that garra has demonstrated he can control at once.

You'll pardon me if I don't watch two whole series right this moment. I'd hazard something like lightning redirection shows its definitely not absent in bending as a concept. Unless were to suppose something like the Earth Kingdom major structures weren't built without teamwork that establishes interacting with another bending. As for a combat technique, not exactly earthbending style as redirection like that would be more waterbending style, be difficult with stone too. I can see some arguments its not too far from what Toph does certainly.

Of course Gaara isn't technically bending either so begs whether the concept can carry over versus just earth in motion anyways. Not like benders expend their chakra that I know of even though that concept does exist in both universes they seemingly just get worn out like from exercise.

Be kinda bad for Gaara if Toph can though. ("Oh you armor yourself with sand huh? Look Katara I'm a bloodbender!")

However she doesn't need to take Gaara apart to put up a good fight and make for an interesting match. Gaara hardly has precise exacting control over every grain, Deidara snuck those bugs through it remember? Much less sand he isn't really manipulating actively into tentacles or whatever, his big desert maker jutsu is a well a big desert making jutsu. Gaara is not going to be able to deprive her of material to work with Toph doesn't have to control it all just nab enough sand/earth/etc to use for herself and block/deflect/dodge with.

Scope is not synonymous with power. Its like defending yourself from a wave, don't have to beat the entire thing just its exceed it in one spot. And while he's not all army crusher scale Gaara I would say is still one of the least precise and slow characters in Naruto, he's impentrable defense with a big smashy offense. But something of an Avatarverse specialty is that benders are not just chucking masses of elements at each other, they all have technique Gaara really doesn't.

Also except for a few jutsu the scale isn't actually so dramatically off, flinging around masses of rock bigger then people is still standard for earthbending and someone like Bumi is practically on par if not flat out there. Incidentially those two fought once, it might be useful insight.

As for the flashy strobe comment, it wouldnt even be something he does on purpose, but you have to admit, tremor sense would be likely well screwed up and confused by the ground everywhere around her vibrating into sand and moving around under her. It would be like trying to tremor sense during an earthquake. Maybe she could do it, I dont know, I just think that at least it would make it harder to do.

I don't have to admit anything. While Avatar is a little more grounded and developed in its use of magical theory, it still has arbitrary distinctions and sheer magic, beyond the whole telekinesis thing. Firebenders violate conservation for example.

Deriving a weakness is thus very hard because we do not in fact have all the rules from an internal perspective and cannot test such a hypothesis. If Toph still had trouble on sand consistently that would be a weakness. I haven't examined the flight angle yet (though Toph does dodge some aerial stuff) and that might be one.

Inventing that you can jam a supernatural sense that isn't known to be jammable is not the same.

[Jayngfet]

they referred to Sandbending and Earthbending as separate arts. its possible to do so, but its probably like Metalbending or Lavabending: it requires more than just normal Earthbending, you need to rethink how you do the art of it a little.

mostly because normal Earthbending is all about solid stances and big rocks and such- its normally not all that flexible. sandbending on the other hand is much more flexible and requires rethinking.

Toph is at a further disadvantage by the fact that she is blind and needs solid ground with tremors to even see, desert absorbs up any tremors, so any sand that comes in the picture would be invisible to her.

that and bloodbending is only possible for like, 99.9% of waterbenders when the moon is full, meaning that most waterbenders can't do it normally. if we're using bloodblending as a comparison, then Toph would have a real hard time bending Gaara's body unless REALLY special conditions just so happened to come into play that Toph wouldn't even know about to slant things in her favor. which would be near deus ex machina levels of bull.

Sandbending is separate in the same sense that Foggy Swamp is seperate: Same basic principals applied to radically different circumstances. The thing to recall though is that Toph doesn't use standard earthbending, she uses an entirely separate system based on an entirely separate martial art that doesn't have the same differences or degree of difference. We actually see Toph move sand briefly during The Library. It's not that she can't do it, it was just that in the middle of a desert she had trouble aiming so the shots couldn't connect, which was only made worse because she was aiming for multiple targets while holding up a whole building.

Though on that note Toph isn't totally blind in a desert, there's just an issue of static to deal with.

So yeah, Gaara starts off with sand on his person, which Toph can manipulate, and without the multiple layers of interference that hampered Toph previously. If she gets the first move or he goes defensive his whole shield would crumble at once because we're dealing with a character that can blast it to pieces with a gesture.

...as for the strobe idea, c'mon guys, it's not her actual eyes. She can handle complex signals fairly easily since she was able to pick out individual ants at a distance while carrying on conversation, and it'd make as much sense as her going into seizure because a pack of duck-horses or whatever came galloping by.

[Traab]

You'll pardon me if I don't watch two whole series right this moment. I'd hazard something like lightning redirection shows its definitely not absent in bending as a concept. Unless were to suppose something like the Earth Kingdom major structures weren't built without teamwork that establishes interacting with another bending. As for a combat technique, not exactly earthbending style as redirection like that would be more waterbending style, be difficult with stone too. I can see some arguments its not too far from what Toph does certainly.

Of course Gaara isn't technically bending either so begs whether the concept can carry over versus just earth in motion anyways. Not like benders expend their chakra that I know of even though that concept does exist in both universes they seemingly just get worn out like from exercise.

Be kinda bad for Gaara if Toph can though. ("Oh you armor yourself with sand huh? Look Katara I'm a bloodbender!")

However she doesn't need to take Gaara apart to put up a good fight and make for an interesting match. Gaara hardly has precise exacting control over every grain, Deidara snuck those bugs through it remember? Much less sand he isn't really manipulating actively into tentacles or whatever, his big desert maker jutsu is a well a big desert making jutsu. Gaara is not going to be able to deprive her of material to work with Toph doesn't have to control it all just nab enough sand/earth/etc to use for herself and block/deflect/dodge with.

Scope is not synonymous with power. Its like defending yourself from a wave, don't have to beat the entire thing just its exceed it in one spot. And while he's not all army crusher scale Gaara I would say is still one of the least precise and slow characters in Naruto, he's impentrable defense with a big smashy offense. But something of an Avatarverse specialty is that benders are not just chucking masses of elements at each other, they all have technique Gaara really doesn't.

Also except for a few jutsu the scale isn't actually so dramatically off, flinging around masses of rock bigger then people is still standard for earthbending and someone like Bumi is practically on par if not flat out there. Incidentially those two fought once, it might be useful insight.



I don't have to admit anything. While Avatar is a little more grounded and developed in its use of magical theory, it still has arbitrary distinctions and sheer magic, beyond the whole telekinesis thing. Firebenders violate conservation for example.

Deriving a weakness is thus very hard because we do not in fact have all the rules from an internal perspective and cannot test such a hypothesis. If Toph still had trouble on sand consistently that would be a weakness. I haven't examined the flight angle yet (though Toph does dodge some aerial stuff) and that might be one.

Inventing that you can jam a supernatural sense that isn't known to be jammable is not the same.

I wasnt asking you to rewatch the series, as I said, while I did watch portions of it, enough to catch the main storyline at least, im hardly an expert and since you seemed to be a pro toph kinda person i figured you would know if they ever did that. Claiming she would take over his sand, even ignoring the likelihood of a bender over riding the control of a chakra user which is two totally different things, not even considering that his sand control was more an instinctive demon granted ability than something natural, wouldnt make sense if she is never seen doing it in her own universe in the first place. If she had done so, then we could argue over if her control would over ride his, if not, then its inventing powers that dont explicitly exist just because it sounds like something she SHOULD be able to do. Sort of like your objection to my ground vibrations screw up tremor sense argument.

As for taking control of the element, im going to say no, if only because in naruto, when two water users fight, they each send a water dragon at each other, they dont take control of their opponents water dragon. Presumably, the chakra in the technique keeps that from happening. Since toph can sand bend that means she wouldnt be defenseless after garra creates a desert after a few minutes, and I wont claim he can tear control away from her if you say the same. But I will say that garra has a power advantage. And you may say it doesnt matter, but it kinda does. To put it in rock terms, if you wrap yourself in a two ton rock to protect yourself and all I have is a one ton rock, chances are I wont break through. If I can drop a FOUR ton rock on you, that changes things. Garra can and often does control absolutely immense amounts of sand, and he can bring all that weight and pressure to bear like he did to kimmimaru. Yeah it failed due to super magic ultra bones, but his upgraded sand burial was still way stronger than the standard one with less sand. Meaning in this case size does matter.

As for techniques garra doesnt have, thats true, and so is the reverse. He has lots of crazy techniques beyond sand coffin/sand burial. Also, his sand manipulation, when you think about it, has elements of both earth and water bending. He does that tendril thing katara uses a lot. Sending out his sand like a whip to entangle and lash at his opponents. I watched the earth bending fight you linked, it was pretty cool, but at best i saw deflection of attacks, not taking control of them. I saw her catch a rock and throw it back, but, aside from that, not really. And that was a really strange move. That didnt look like bending, it looked like she caught a rock the size of her head being hurled at high speed physically. Thats. . . kinda hard to explain. She isnt physically that strong is she? She did at one point seem to be able to detect that guy swinging towards her, but that was hearing, going by the twitching ear. Since garra isnt a big screamer outside of his demon fits, that might not be a big help for her. Also, once again, he is highly capable of launching attacks from areas not centered on him. So just because he calls out sand shurikens or whatever, doesnt mean they will be arriving from that direction.

[Metahuman1]

Or you could presume that the difference between Naruto characters fighting and Avatar characters fighting is one is based VERY loosely on Ninjitsu and the other is based on Wuxia Kung Fu. Of course they fight differently. The Ninja's are too busy trying line up another one move one kill set up to worry about redirecting an attack back in an enemy's face or breaking his defense wide open to use against him. Benders? Not so much.

[Jayngfet]

As for taking control of the element, im going to say no, if only because in naruto, when two water users fight, they each send a water dragon at each other, they dont take control of their opponents water dragon. Presumably, the chakra in the technique keeps that from happening. Since toph can sand bend that means she wouldnt be defenseless after garra creates a desert after a few minutes, and I wont claim he can tear control away from her if you say the same. But I will say that garra has a power advantage. And you may say it doesnt matter, but it kinda does. To put it in rock terms, if you wrap yourself in a two ton rock to protect yourself and all I have is a one ton rock, chances are I wont break through. If I can drop a FOUR ton rock on you, that changes things. Garra can and often does control absolutely immense amounts of sand, and he can bring all that weight and pressure to bear like he did to kimmimaru. Yeah it failed due to super magic ultra bones, but his upgraded sand burial was still way stronger than the standard one with less sand. Meaning in this case size does matter.

So let me get this straight.

Toph can't bend sand even though she can't bend sand. Not because it's impossible to her, but because it's impossible to people she's never met or heard of under a system she doesn't even use.

As for your rock analogy, it doesn't matter how heavy a rock is if it can be launched with sufficient force at the right angle: That rock will shatter. It's not a question of raw weight, it's a question of the fundamental laws of physics. This is doubly true if the smaller object is made of something denser, like say, metal.

[Kitten Champion]

Gaara's general tactics are to build an area of influence around him by mixing his sand into it, floating somewhere in the middle on a small platform of his own making several meters off the ground to maintain enough distance to observe his surroundings and ready his layers of defences. He then sends out sand constructs to latch onto his enemies, bind them, and then crush them. He's fairly cautious like most ninja, as he exists in a world where his enemies could potentially do most of anything and he's near the highest tier where they're more than likely to have unexpected and unparalleled capabilities.

I would say this would be an effective tactic against Toph, who needs interconnected ground to see, gestures to fight, and is more than a little aggressive. If anyone were to misjudge the powers of their opponent, it wouldn't be Gaara.

[Traab]

So let me get this straight.

Toph can't bend sand even though she can't bend sand. Not because it's impossible to her, but because it's impossible to people she's never met or heard of under a system she doesn't even use.

As for your rock analogy, it doesn't matter how heavy a rock is if it can be launched with sufficient force at the right angle: That rock will shatter. It's not a question of raw weight, it's a question of the fundamental laws of physics. This is doubly true if the smaller object is made of something denser, like say, metal.

No, what? I said she can bend sand, she just cant take control of HIS sand any more than he could take control of hers. Thats what I am saying, if he launches a sand spear, she cant wiggle her fingers and make it attack him instead, no more than he can take a sand spike from her and make it freeze in place with his will. As for the rock thing yes, i am aware of the exceptions, but considering this is sand grinding against metal, the analogy is flawed anyways. I was merely pointing out that YES, having an entire magnitude of raw material more to work with would in fact make a difference. 100 tons of sand being used as a hydraulic press is more likely to crush metal than 100 pounds of sand doing the same. And yes im throwing out random numbers, thats not the point. Im not interested in guessing how much the total amount of sand garra can control weighs, just knowing its a freaking lot more than he carries in his gourd is enough for me, and therefore far more effective at crushing his opponent.

[MLai]

@ Can benders bend each other's attacks?
Yes and no.

Yes in that yes, benders can interfere with an elemental attack currently being controlled by another same-element bender, without physically touching that elemental attack. This is easiest to see in a fight between waterbenders.

No in that benders do not do this because it's clumsy and stupid, and experienced martial artists do not fight this way. Trying to fight this way is like little kids clutching each other by the shoulders and trying to push each other to the floor. What's the point of years of technique training if this is how you wish to fight? You allow the opponent to extend himself, you parry with minimal time/effort/contact spent, and then you attack before your opponent recovers.

@ Can Gaara overpower Toph like he overpowers other ninjas with his sand?
Incidentally, Gaara fights like a little kid without technique, in terms of sand control. Except he gets away with it because he's a 10 feet-tall little kid; he doesn't need technique when he can crash a tidal wave of sand on top of you. So his sand is clumsy, slow, and unfocused... but he can move F-tons of it. I've never seen his sand catch any decent ninja because it's fast or martial-arts-like; it works because there's so much sand you're boxed in until even mindless tentacles can catch you.

Problem with Gaara is Toph doesn't care if she's standing in a football field of juutsu-desert. If Gaara can't bring all of it to bear fast enough and concentrated enough, she'll just wade through it like a swimmer through water. Toph does not need to counter all of Gaara's raw area-of-effect strength, because she has better-focused power. That's the entire point of martial arts.

[Lord Raziere]

yea but here is the thing, Rock Lee tried to beat Gaara with speed and greater focused power. he even gone into a super-mode to do it. guess what? HE STILL LOST. Rock Lee is pretty much the epitome of high speed wuxia fighting and look what that got him: two broken limbs and the probability that he will never fight again unless a LEGENDARY healer treated him. and Rock Lee didn't have to worry about staying on the ground and not being able to see.

again, unless Toph can beat Mr. Bushy Brows the Super Speed Bruce Lee Clone, she can forget taking on Gaara. especially when we know Toph is not the most level-headed of people, and Gaara pretty much takes down anyone who can't keep a cool head in battle.

[Metahuman1]

Except that was Author Fiat to establish Garra as a psychopath and a threat and to show how awesome Sasuke and Naruto were later. Also, Rock Lee is explicitly, repeatedly, called out as not having super powers. It's like Comparing Mocking Bird to Captain Marvel, or Wildcat to Green Lantern. The latter two aren't winning that fight on skill, there winning it on sheer brute force.


Toph vs. Gaara would be like Valkyrie or Sif vs. Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman vs. Green Lantern. The power gap is much much smaller, and as a result, skill matters a lot more, and the skill gap does not favor Captain Marvel or Green Lantern.

[Kitten Champion]

His sand also stopped all manner of ninja-based throwing weapons, various explosions, and lightning -- which are typically considered fast things. He's also far from imprecise, I don't think he could perform microsurgery with his sand, but he's formed refined objects and small projectiles before.

The question of how she'd know where to aim when Gaara can float around noiselessly and with the barest of effort is what I'd like answered.

[MLai]

yea but here is the thing, Rock Lee tried to beat Gaara with speed and greater focused power. he even gone into a super-mode to do it. guess what? HE STILL LOST. Rock Lee is pretty much the epitome of high speed wuxia fighting and look what that got him: two broken limbs and the probability that he will never fight again unless a LEGENDARY healer treated him. and Rock Lee didn't have to worry about staying on the ground and not being able to see..

Even while typing that, you should have realized that Rock Lee is a strong martial artist, but Toph is a strong martial artist who has control over sand earth stone and metal.
Versus Gaara who is not a strong martial artist who has stronger but slower control over sand.

Gaara will not be crushing Toph's limbs with little tentacles of sand as demonstrated in his first fight with Rock Lee. Toph would not even notice those weak small tendrils as she scatters them like dead leaves. Toph canonically can shrug off landslides off a mountain. Gaara needs a lot more sand before he can overpower Toph.

His sand also stopped all manner of ninja-based throwing weapons, various explosions, and lightning -- which are typically considered fast things. He's also far from imprecise, I don't think he could perform microsurgery with his sand, but he's formed refined objects and small projectiles before.

I'm seen all of Naruto, and the early part of Shippuuden (stopped after the puppeteer master died fighting Sakura). AFAIK, Gaara is not precise or fast with sand. You'd have to link Youtube clips to convince me otherwise. Which should be easy to do if he does it so often.
I do know that his sand is instinctive. Which is a far cry from martial arts, and also inferior. If Rock Lee had even the bending power of an average earthbender in his first fight with Gaara, he would have mopped the floor with Mascara Boy.

The question of how she'd know where to aim when Gaara can float around noiselessly and with the barest of effort is what I'd like answered.

If it gets to this stage, I absolutely agree that this is when she would lose. But it's very likely the fight will be over before Gaara even considers floating into the sky. The tempo of Toph's fights are VERY fast. There is no time for a flashback of some traumatized childhood.

[Lord Raziere]

Except that was Author Fiat to establish Garra as a psychopath and a threat and to show how awesome Sasuke and Naruto were later. Also, Rock Lee is explicitly, repeatedly, called out as not having super powers. It's like Comparing Mocking Bird to Captain Marvel, or Wildcat to Green Lantern. The latter two aren't winning that fight on skill, there winning it on sheer brute force.


Toph vs. Gaara would be like Valkyrie or Sif vs. Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman vs. Green Lantern. The power gap is much much smaller, and as a result, skill matters a lot more, and the skill gap does not favor Captain Marvel or Green Lantern.

so?

Metahuman, it doesn't matter if it IS author fiat. its canon. no matter how bad the writing is, if its canon in VS. matches, it flies.

and no. Rock Lee is explicitly called out as not having genjutsu or ninjutsu. he is still a master of taijutsu, and is able to pretty much a super-speedy super-strong monk that could easily kill anyone who can't kick ass like him. the problem with him is that he is a super-monk in a world of wizards and sorcerers.

and no, just because Toph has the same powers as Gaara, doesn't mean she is on the same power level. Rock Lee is on the same power level as Gaara. he has super-strength and super-speed that no one in the Avatar-verse can match, a world where people not moving nearly as fast as Lee can shut down a bender by hitting vitals points- why, Neji for example would pretty much dominate the Avatar world. He can see all the points he would need to hit to shut down everyone's bending and has a move to deflect ANY projectiles that come for him, even elemental blasts and is super-fast and acrobatic beyond most benders, and Rock Lee is pretty much fighting on Neji's level. and Rock Lee and Neji? they can't beat Gaara.

you just have to accept, that aside from the Avatar, that the Benders as a whole are lower-powered than the shinobi. they can't move as fast or be as strong, their magic is not as flexible, they certainly can't make clones or replacements, nor can they do disguise magic, and Gaara is a powerful freak of nature even in Naruto world. Gaara would pretty much do things with sand that Toph would dismiss as impossible, would be confused as to how he is manipulating it without actually moving all that much and so on. Toph is used to reading people make certain big movements in their bending. she isn't expecting some guy to just use a couple hand signs to do it, and certainly not to pull off big stuff like sand tidal waves, all the while Gaara would be calmly observing and using his shinobi-trained mind to win things as quick as possible.

Toph is seriously outclassed here. she is a former sheltered rich girl facing a trained calm killer who can do things she thinks are impossible. nothing Toph does matches the power and control that Gaara can pull off for things he probably considers routine.

and even if Toph has control over sand and earth, so what? Gaara does to. she tries to bend it, he will just bend it back, and it will just be a sand tug of war. and Gaara has been shown that even without Shikaku he has a lot of chakra reserves to draw upon, with all that chakra he can use, he will just yank the sand out of Toph's control with his own greater strength and energy then crush her. if it comes to a sand tug of war, Gaara wins because he is trained killer who undergoes training to build up strength and control everyday to become better at killing. Toph is a little girl with disabilities mostly getting by on talent. Guess who wins, Gaara.

[F.H. Zebedee]

You're saying Gaara trains more, but his skills is instinctive... You kinda can't have it both ways.

And saying Toph is a spoiled little rich girl is doing a ridiculous disservice to the character, considering that her very introduction (and pretty much her entire arc) was a rejection of that lifestyle and those principles. And Toph continuously went out and found things to do; all through The Last Airbender, she was engaged in war with the Fire Nation, and then after the war, she founded an academy to train other earthbenders how to metal bend, and then chose to spend her adult life as the chief of police for her world's biggest city. Toph didn't just choose the hard way, she prided herself on pretty much always doing things the *hardest* way.

Toph never stopped training and honing her skills; even as a shriveled up old lady, she still has a routine she follows.

TBH, I think Gaara takes this, since he's got raw power on his side, but I think you... don't remotely understand Toph at all. I'm coming at this from the perspective of somebody who's read/watched both series start to finish, and a lot of what you're saying is indicating that you've done a bare minimum of research on the character.

Yes, Gaara will win, but it won't be easy.