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[Lord Raziere]

...isn't Zuko himself an example that benders don't have any innate resistance to their own element? his burn still stays with him even into old age. doesn't seem all that resistant to me. the human body is constantly growing and reproducing its cells and such. if he was more resistant, he'd have healed the burn naturally by then, even scars don't stay forever.

Edit: nevermind, apparently the Great MLai says no. ignore me, O' King of Avatar World.

[Reverent-One]

Your arbitrary limitation of Hollywood physics aside (it totally can do that), this is easy enough.

Show a non-firebender getting hit by fire on exposed skin, without being burned. This would show that there is no specific innate resistance, but rather just blanket cartoon physics. By reason, pro-bending uniforms are also fire-resistant fabric.

Despite your claim that his head was the only exposed part of him, the earthbender's feet and one hand were also exposed to the fire (the other hand is arguably hidden behind his arm), not shielded by any clothing, and weren't burned. His arm was also not raised above shoulder level, giving his head no protection of any hypothetical fire-resistant clothing.

[MLai]

Edit: nevermind, apparently the Great MLai says no. ignore me, O' King of Avatar World.

What do you want me to say? That if an adult bends fire at a toddler, the toddler should be immune to the fire because he'll grow up to be a firebender?
At what point must a show spell out everything for you?

Despite your claim that his head was the only exposed part of him, the earthbender's feet and one hand were also exposed to the fire (the other hand is arguably hidden behind his arm), not shielded by any clothing, and weren't burned. His arm was also not raised above shoulder level, giving his head no protection of any hypothetical fire-resistant clothing.

Are you making your point honestly? did you advance frame-by-frame?
The guy was blown back twice by Zuko. The second time he erected a hasty earth shield so let's discount that one.
The first time, if you advance frame-by-frame, you can see that by the time the fire reached him, he had turned his body sideways, tucked his head in, and put his entire right arm up so that his thick EK uniform completely obscured his head. His right hand was also not directly exposed because he had cocked his forearm in so that it's not out in front, i.e. he was not trying to block anything with the back of his fist.

Other than quickly turning around, curling up, and pointing his ass towards Zuko... that was actually the best unexposed standing defensive posture he could take without having time to get an earth shield up. It looks even better than I had remembered.

[Reverent-One]

The first time, if you advance frame-by-frame, you can see that by the time the fire reached him, he had turned his body sideways, tucked his head in, and put his entire right arm up so that his thick EK uniform completely obscured his head. His right hand was also not directly exposed because he had cocked his forearm in so that it's not out in front, i.e. he was not trying to block anything with the back of his fist.

This is incorrect. Going frame by frame, you see that his arm never blocks his head at all. He turns sideways sure, but his head being 6 inches or so further back from his shoulder isn't going to make that massive fire blast not touch it. You're also ignoring his foot, which was out in front of the rest of his body. As proof, I'll include a screenshot of right before/as the fire reached him.

Spoiler

Show

I've highlighted the clearly visible foot and bald spot on his head for you. The area of his hand is obscured by the more opaque part of the flames, so I'll leave that aside.

The guy was blown back twice by Zuko. The second time he erected a hasty earth shield so let's discount that one.

On this note, despite the fact that he's an earthbender and thus, by your theory, more resistant to getting hit by earth, it's his shield knocking him back into a wall that takes him out. He sounds really pained in his "Who...who are you?" line, not like he's merely inconvenienced. This doesn't make a good case for Toph being able to shake off being hit by earth, since Gaara can hit at least that hard.

On the other hand, Zuko gets directly hit by rocks at least as big as his head several times in that fight and doesn't get more than the wind knocked out of him (if that), and while he was temporarily knocked out from the big eruption from the ground that sends him flying (something like 10 feet? more?), he moves well enough afterwards that it seems he avoided any broken bones, which is the sort of thing that falls under your "supra-hollywood physics". And yet, he's a firebender, not an earthbender.

[Lord Raziere]

What do you want me to say? That if an adult bends fire at a toddler, the toddler should be immune to the fire because he'll grow up to be a firebender?
At what point must a show spell out everything for you?

......spell what out!? there is no deeper thing to this! Zuko was an idiot like all kids his age, his father was a massive jerk and evil, half his face got burned off and he miraculously survived against all odds. it happens. there is no magical resistance we never see! your acting as if every single scene in Avatar is laced with subtle clues and hidden meanings that only you can see and that anyone who can't is somehow an idiot. quoth the Freud: "Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe."

I mean yes Avatar is a great show, its a show that the like of which will not be seen again for quite a while. but is it this super-deep mosaic of layered clues and symbolism interwoven together in such way to be able to be spotted but only if your seeing it again or whatever as opposed to the first viewing or whatever? nah.
don't read too much into things, lest ye start seeing conspiracies and aliens everywhere you look.

sometimes people not getting burned is just because it was aired on a kids channel so they couldn't show it for fear of censors or whatever and nothing else.

[MLai]

sometimes people not getting burned is just because it was aired on a kids channel so they couldn't show it for fear of censors or whatever and nothing else.

Ofc there's the #1 meta reason you don't see ppl burning to death or being squashed into meat patty by rocks. But some shows try to keep an element of realism so they make in-universe reasons compatible with what you see. Such as "All Cobra pilots manage to eject from their planes before GI Joe explodes their planes in mid-air." In the case of ATLA, it's "Benders have some innate resistance preventing them from being horribly mangled like if you got hit with that IRL."

It's not just firebenders. When Korra fights with Kuvira, you seem them getting tossed into machinery hard enough to crater them. How do you crater metallic backdrops and still jump up fighting as if you just crashed into cardboard boxes??? Notice only metal benders get subjected to this treatment, in the entire show.

This is incorrect. Going frame by frame, you see that his arm never blocks his head at all. He turns sideways sure, but his head being 6 inches or so further back from his shoulder isn't going to make that massive fire blast not touch it. You're also ignoring his foot, which was out in front of the rest of his body. As proof, I'll include a screenshot of right before/as the fire reached him..

Looks like the supposedly 720HD Youtube clip betrayed me. Now I notice that in that video clip, the guy's eye got obscured by a stray pixel blot on that exact frame. So you are correct in terms of your conviction, you were not being dishonest, I should not have questioned your honesty, I definitely hereby eat any words which insinuated that you were being dishonest or at least non-perceptive.

Though (I hate to say this but) it doesn't change what I said.

The foot? Doesn't matter because the ring of fire wasn't "aimed" at his foot. The exposed head? Doesn't matter because he still adopted the exact defensive posture that I mentioned in the previous post. I know what you want to say: So MLai is saying he can't be proven wrong even though the frame shows exposed body parts. But my point is the animator's intention to show that the Earthbender is really trying to cover and defend himself is right there. He's not spreading his arms out and getting hit squarely in the face, to the point where the director can't excuse blatant cartoon physics taking place. He's curling up and has put his thickly-armored shoulder and arm up to defend his head even if it's not completely obscured.

I can understand if you want to say that proves your point, but AFAIC it's still headcanon. I see the animator's intention, and no scenes in the show contradicts that intention. They may not think about it that deeply for every frame of every single fighting scene, but the thought is always there in the choreography:

"Make sure nobody gets hit too badly that we can't excuse lack of injury away using Hollywood stunt-physics."
"But what if it's a bender getting hit by his/her element? Or, what if it's the Avatar getting hit by an element he/she is trained in?"
"Then you got more leeway, because he/she is partially resistant to it."

• And hence we get Zuko vs Zhao Agni Kai where both are naked and therefore incontestably exposed, but not getting burnt even when hit past their guard.
• And hence we get Zuko standing still in the middle of an inferno that's raging higher than his head, even though a human cannot tolerate the heat of walking across a fire burning higher than his knees. He's not doing any katas to ward off the fire. He's standing very still. How is he doing this?
• And hence we get the above said Earthbender being smashed into earthen wall hard enough for it to crumple into pieces behind him from one impact, to bury him in a pile of rubble as if he's a human wrecking ball, but he's only dazed and "admits to defeat".
• And hence we get Korra vs Kuvira smashing each other through metallic scenery.
• Etc.

[Reverent-One]

Looks like the supposedly 720HD Youtube clip betrayed me. Now I notice that in that video clip, the guy's eye got obscured by a stray pixel blot on that exact frame. So you are correct in terms of your conviction, you were not being dishonest, I should not have questioned your honesty, I definitely hereby eat any words which insinuated that you were being dishonest or at least non-perceptive.

For the record, I acknowledge that. Very good, sir.

Though (I hate to say this but) it doesn't change what I said.

The foot? Doesn't matter because the ring of fire wasn't "aimed" at his foot. The exposed head? Doesn't matter because he still adopted the exact defensive posture that I mentioned in the previous post. I know what you want to say: So MLai is saying he can't be proven wrong even though the frame shows exposed body parts. But my point is the animator's intention to show that the Earthbender is really trying to cover and defend himself is right there. He's not spreading his arms out and getting hit squarely in the face, to the point where the director can't excuse blatant cartoon physics taking place. He's curling up and has put his thickly-armored shoulder and arm up to defend his head even if it's not completely obscured.

No, all we can say about the animator's intention is to show that he tried to defend himself. If the intention was to show him successfully covering himself, they could have done that very easily. He is NOT putting his arm up to defend his head, that would require raising it above his shoulder, which he doesn't do. He leads with his exposed foot, and since it's a ring of fire as big as he is, it is effectively "aimed" at his foot as much as any other part of him. You making up thought processes for the animator doesn't change that you have failed to meet your burden of proof.

This:

"Then you got more leeway, because he/she is partially resistant to it."

Isn't said or implied anywhere, and simply saying "it's never directly contradicted" isn't evidence. They don't directly contradict the idea that the Avatar world is actually a matrix-like reality everyone is plugged into and the Avatar state is simply the result of hax, but that doesn't mean anyone who keeps insisting it is should be taken seriously. There isn't the evidence to support the existence of an additional superpower that every bender has in the form of resistance to damage from their own element. Relying on intentions of the writer/animator to support an argument certainly can work, but you actually have to provide statements from them, otherwise you're just making stuff up. There's nothing to contradict the idea that every such incident is explained by Hollywood Physics, and that doesn't require any additional evidence to support it.

You're also moving the goalposts, since previously, "Show a non-firebender getting hit by fire on exposed skin, without being burned" was, in your words, enough to disprove you. Now that that's been done, it's not enough? Because of what you claim their intentions were without support?

And hence we get Zuko standing still in the middle of an inferno that's raging higher than his head, even though a human cannot tolerate the heat of walking across a fire burning higher than his knees. He's not doing any katas to ward off the fire. He's standing very still. How is he doing this?

The same way every other character ignores convection in this show, because the writers ignore it.

EDIT: Except when they stop ignoring it, like in the Boiling Rock, where it was a problem for firebenders and non-benders alike.

And hence we get the above said Earthbender being smashed into rock hard enough for it to crumple into pieces behind him, to bury him in a pile of rubble as if he's a human wrecking ball, but he's only dazed and "admits to defeat".

And Zuko is hit directly in the chest and sent flying, and isn't more than stunned for a few seconds. The Earthbender doesn't "admit to defeat", he's seems to be barely able to speak, much less fight.

[MLai]

No, all we can say about the animator's intention is to show that he tried to defend himself. If the intention was to show him successfully covering himself, they could have done that very easily. He is NOT putting his arm up to defend his head, that would require raising it above his shoulder, which he doesn't do.

A static picture doesn't show it, but by following the animation it's pretty clear that he's putting his guard up and turning around. If his motion was completed, or if we get to see him completing his motion before the camera's POV was obscured, his 3/4 back would be facing Zuko with his right shoulder and arm protecting his head.

otherwise you're just making stuff up.

This isn't an observation based on 1 or 2 fight scenes. It's built up over 2 multi-season series. All warriors in the show display some Hollywood stunt-physics, but the really egregious ones are always benders getting hit by their own element.

You're also moving the goalposts, since previously, "Show a non-firebender getting hit by fire on exposed skin, without being burned" was, in your words, enough to disprove you. Now that that's been done, it's not enough? Because of what you claim their intentions were without support?

My goalpost has always been "Benders have partial innate resistance to their element, e.g. Zuko doesn't have to keep doing a kata to stand in the middle of a fire, etc." (Firebenders illustrate this most clearly because fire is innately harmful even if it's not being thrown at you.)

My mistake was that I thought the Zuko Alone scene shows the principle clearly enough so as to shut down debate quickly. So from now on I will retract that as a clincher example. But my goalpost was never formulated due to that scene alone.

The earthbender deserter is actually a bad example for either side: He's clearly almost done hunkering down, and he is reasonably well-armored to avoid indirect burns by doing so... but the animators didn't complete their job at the last frame. So is fire something which only packs concussive force, and holds no heat? But then how did Katara get burned? This scene cannot tell you.

Yes, the writers ignore fire's heat and convection. But only via piggybacking on Hollywood norms. Explosions can't kill you as long as you don't touch the fireball, etc etc. When the damage is far greater than Hollywood norms, the writers instinctively seek out a secondary explanation to cover themselves. This is where you see the principle of "Benders have greater resistance to their own element above Hollywood norms" displayed through 8 seasons.

And Zuko is hit directly in the chest and sent flying, and isn't more than stunned for a few seconds.

And Jet is hit by the exact same type of attack, and is dead. And Mako is launched the length of a tennis court by Unalaq's water stream, and gets right back up. Hollywood physics is in full effect but there's a limit.

I mean, look at Korra vs Kuvira inside the robot control room. Korra smashes into the metal ceiling hard enough to crater it. She is thrown into solidly-constructed metal control panels hard enough to bisect it all the way down to the floor. Yet she shrugs that off. Yet punches and kicks made of ordinary bone and muscle are enough to reel her. What the hell? Keep in mind this sort of resistance doesn't occur until after Korra learned metalbending.

The Earthbender doesn't "admit to defeat", he's seems to be barely able to speak, much less fight.

Actually, when Zuko took the decorative dagger from him, he seemed pretty limber. Scared ****less of Zuko, but limber.

[Zevox]

done by the Avatar in the Avatar state, so not a thing that Toph will be able to do ever, and done by Bumi with the help of three other White Lotus masters to my memory actually, so yeah. not good examples to my way of thinking.

Actually, the latter example sounds like when Bumi escaped from his imprisonment, not when the White Lotus liberated Ba Sing Se. In that instance he did actually single-handedly clear Omashu of Fire Nation troops - although that was during the eclipse, when Firebending didn't work. And it wasn't him doing it in just one big bending attack: he moved a bunch of rock pillars to push Fire Nation structures and a statue of Firelord Ozai out of the city, while launching Fire Nation away by troops by popping such pillars up under their feet.

[Reverent-One]

A static picture doesn't show it, but by following the animation it's pretty clear that he's putting his guard up and turning around. If his motion was completed, or if we get to see him completing his motion before the camera's POV was obscured, his 3/4 back would be facing Zuko with his right shoulder and arm protecting his head.

This would still mean that as of getting hit, he's not protected. This still does not support the idea that the animator intended him to be protected at that moment and they're treating it like he was, despite the fact that he wasn't.

This isn't an observation based on 1 or 2 fight scenes. It's built up over 2 multi-season series. All warriors in the show display some Hollywood stunt-physics, but the really egregious ones are always benders getting hit by their own element.

Except for ones like the one we've been discussing. So it's not "always".

My goalpost has always been "Benders have partial innate resistance to their element, e.g. Zuko doesn't have to keep doing a kata to stand in the middle of a fire, etc." (Firebenders illustrate this most clearly because fire is innately harmful even if it's not being thrown at you.)

My mistake was that I thought the Zuko Alone scene shows the principle clearly enough so as to shut down debate quickly. So from now on I will retract that as a clincher example. But my goalpost was never formulated due to that scene alone.

Yes, which you said could be disproven if I could "Show a non-firebender getting hit by fire on exposed skin, without being burned". Since that has been done, either that's disproven your point, or you're moving the goalposts.

The earthbender deserter is actually a bad example for either side: He's clearly almost done hunkering down, and he is reasonably well-armored to avoid indirect burns by doing so... but the animators didn't complete their job at the last frame. So is fire something which only packs concussive force, and holds no heat? But then how did Katara get burned? This scene cannot tell you.

Yes, the writers ignore fire's heat and convection. But only via piggybacking on Hollywood norms. Explosions can't kill you as long as you don't touch the fireball, etc etc. When the damage is far greater than Hollywood norms, the writers instinctively seek out a secondary explanation to cover themselves. This is where you see the principle of "Benders have greater resistance to their own element above Hollywood norms" displayed through 8 seasons.

Both instances with the earthbender and katara fit with it's portrayal over the series. Burns only happen if they want it to to serve a plot point. That's Hollywood physics. There haven't been instances of above Hollywood norms shown, or if they have, they've been shown by a mix of benders of different elements, not just benders of the same element. You have yet to show the writers "seeking out a secondary explanation", simply saying they do doesn't make it so.

And Jet is hit by the exact same type of attack, and is dead. And Mako is launched the length of a tennis court by Unalaq's water stream, and gets right back up.

Certainly, but that's consistent with Hollywood physics as an explanation, not "Benders have greater resistance to their own element".

I mean, look at Korra vs Kuvira inside the robot control room. Korra smashes into the metal ceiling hard enough to crater it. She is thrown into solidly-constructed metal control panels hard enough to bisect it all the way down to the floor. Yet she shrugs that off. Yet punches and kicks made of ordinary bone and muscle are enough to reel her. What the hell? Keep in mind this sort of resistance doesn't occur until after Korra learned metalbending.

Really? When did Korra get thrown into metal hard enough to dent it prior to learning metalbending and get more seriously wounded instead?

Actually, when Zuko took the decorative dagger from him, he seemed pretty limber. Scared ****less of Zuko, but limber.

Hence why I said "fight", not "move".

[F.H. Zebedee]

Just wanted to point out one minor, but important detail: Gaara's sand catches people all the time, not because it's fast, but because it's omnipresent and insidious. He doesn't chase people with it successfully, typically. Instead, he tends to herd them into other sections that were ready to catch them.

So those saying Toph isn't fast enough, that's not quite the case. Almost any healthy character on their level can outrun a singular attack from Gaara... The problem is, while he sent that attack at you, he prepared twenty more in the direction you're fleeing to.

The key question is "Can Toph sense the airborn sand?" If her innate earth senses allow her to, she'll put up a much better fight (albeit still at a huge disadvantage), but if Gaara can levitate his sand to trap her, she's not going to fare well at all. o.o

[Lord Raziere]

Just wanted to point out one minor, but important detail: Gaara's sand catches people all the time, not because it's fast, but because it's omnipresent and insidious. He doesn't chase people with it successfully, typically. Instead, he tends to herd them into other sections that were ready to catch them.

So those saying Toph isn't fast enough, that's not quite the case. Almost any healthy character on their level can outrun a singular attack from Gaara... The problem is, while he sent that attack at you, he prepared twenty more in the direction you're fleeing to.

The key question is "Can Toph sense the airborn sand?" If her innate earth senses allow her to, she'll put up a much better fight (albeit still at a huge disadvantage), but if Gaara can levitate his sand to trap her, she's not going to fare well at all. o.o

true.

Toph is trained to fight, Gaara is trained to kill. Toph, no matter how much she trains, is still training with a guy who is a pacifist monk at heart, while Gaara trains with ninja whose purpose is to kill. Toph's default strategy will be to incapacitate Gaara. Gaara's default strategy, being a guy whose entire purpose is to kill and is not afraid to do so no matter his incarnation and coming from a world of constant preparation and magical techniques to deceive and set up ways to not die counteracted by ways to deceive and set up ways to kill, will be not only try to kill Toph, but devise ways in which she will lead herself into getting killed.

a ninja is all about controlling the flow of the battle in Naruto. the entire ideal of ninja in that world is to be an on-the-fly tactical mastermind who reads their opponent and not just makes them die, but makes them make decisions that lead to their death. Avatar-verse people, think too much in the moment, they don't prepare and make tactics and specific techniques that no one can counter as a part of their daily existence, while for the purposes of any ninja fight: all ninja have prep-time, always. maybe not for the EXACT foe they are facing, but for general stuff they might face? true, because the entire point of being a Naruto Shinobi is figuring out ways to prepare for things and win the fight before it even happens.

in short, this fight is like a guy from a universe of Batmans facing a girl from a universe of Jackie Chans or something. no matter how good Jackie Chans or Bruce Lee's kung fu is, Gaara is a Batman with a sand-themed utility belt, only without the code against killing.

[MLai]

This would still mean that as of getting hit, he's not protected. This still does not support the idea that the animator intended him to be protected at that moment and they're treating it like he was, despite the fact that he wasn't.
Except for ones like the one we've been discussing. So it's not "always".
Both instances with the earthbender and katara fit with it's portrayal over the series. Burns only happen if they want it to to serve a plot point. That's Hollywood physics. There haven't been instances of above Hollywood norms shown, or if they have, they've been shown by a mix of benders of different elements, not just benders of the same element. You have yet to show the writers "seeking out a secondary explanation", simply saying they do doesn't make it so.

At this point this conversation has devolved into:
"Over the course of 2 series, clearly I can see the animators' intention."
"Oh yeah prove it."
"Watch the 2 series."

To keep it on topic, the original contention was "Can Toph resist sand attacks greater than a normal person?" The answer is still YES, whether or not you agree with my suggestion that it's limited to Earthbenders or if it applies to all humans in ATLA-verse. If the answer was NO, Zuko should be dead in the Zuko Alone scene we love so much.

Yes, which you said could be disproven if I could "Show a non-firebender getting hit by fire on exposed skin, without being burned". Since that has been done, either that's disproven your point, or you're moving the goalposts.

The Zuko Alone scene was never central to my premise; it's an example you brought up. I never said "I believe this after watching that particular scene." I simply thought that I had a clear upper hand if we use that scene as evidence, for which I was wrong: the scene is poor evidence either way.

If the deserter was half-naked and not burnt, then it'd be a great example against me. If he was caught completely off-guard by a fireball to the face, then it'd be a great example against me. Because then there is no room for artistic opinion. But the last frame is fudgy. Yeah, his forehead is showing. But he's also heavily armoured in asbestos and he's definitely well in the process of covering up.

Certainly, but that's consistent with Hollywood physics as an explanation, not "Benders have greater resistance to their own element". Really? When did Korra get thrown into metal hard enough to dent it prior to learning metalbending and get more seriously wounded instead?

How is "I get up after breaking through (not dent) thick metal plates (they were thick in that scene) with my spine" within Hollywood physics for human action heroes?

Let me ask you this then:
-- Do you think Korra can survive being thrown through metal plating (no counter-bending, no putting her hands out) without passive resistance to metal?
-- If yes, then do you think she would flinch from human punching and kicking her?
-- Does she flinch from humans punching or kicking her in the show?

[MLai]

true.

I also agree with the previous poster; Toph is in trouble if Gaara figures out her tremor-sense and so starts using airborne sandstorms against her. It's how Aang beat her in her intro episode.

I disagree with your subsequent Batman elaboration. Death Battles assume certain things: Participants both aim to kill. Participants perform according to their in-show feats, regardless of the meta reason.

(So Rainbow Dash performing hax physics against Starscream is allowed, because that's what she does in her show. The meta reason that her show fails real physics is irrelevant.)

Anyways, in a Death Battle Toph would not lose because she's trying to not kill somebody. She'll kill Gaara.
Toph would, however, fight in her normal way. And she fights to end fights very quickly in her normal style. She doesn't drag things out or play around.

[Reverent-One]

At this point this conversation has devolved into:
"Over the course of 2 series, clearly I can see the animators' intention."
"Oh yeah prove it."
"Watch the 2 series."

You're the one making the claim, you're the one who's supposed to support it beyond "watch the shows". Especially when other people bring up counter points like I did. If you don't want to provide evidence, don't make the claim.

The Zuko Alone scene was never central to my premise; it's an example you brought up. I never said "I believe this after watching that particular scene." I simply thought that I had a clear upper hand if we use that scene as evidence, for which I was wrong: the scene is poor evidence either way.

That scene isn't directly important, what's important is that you said "a non-firebender getting hit by fire on exposed skin, without being burned" would disprove your point. That's a general statement about what you think "normal Hollywood physics" is, which is entirely central to your point. The scene is only important because it fulfills that criteria. In other words, yes, I brought it up. I brought it because it goes against your argument.

If the deserter was half-naked and not burnt, then it'd be a great example against me. If he was caught completely off-guard by a fireball to the face, then it'd be a great example against me. Because then there is no room for artistic opinion. But the last frame is fudgy. Yeah, his forehead is showing. But he's also heavily armoured in asbestos and he's definitely well in the process of covering up.

His forehead and his foot, plenty to get at least slightly burnt. The "armoured in asbestos" claim isn't terribly well-supported either, and "well in the process" doesn't matter because he's still not actually done with the process. If you're "well in the process" of getting a space suit on when the airlock you're in opens to space, you're still in trouble. You know the saying, "almost only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades".

How is "I get up after breaking through (not dent) thick metal plates (they were thick in that scene) with my spine" within Hollywood physics for human action heroes?

Let me ask you this then:
-- Do you think Korra can survive being thrown through metal plating (no counter-bending, no putting her hands out) without passive resistance to metal?
-- If yes, then do you think she would flinch from human punching and kicking her?
-- Does she flinch from humans punching or kicking her in the show?

If Zuko survived having big chucks of rock thrown at him without a passive resistance to rock without broken bones, why not? It's consistent with other feats by other people within the show.

[MLai]

You're the one making the claim, you're the one who's supposed to support it beyond "watch the shows". Especially when other people bring up counter points like I did. If you don't want to provide evidence, don't make the claim.

You brought up the Earthbender Deserter example as an indisputable example of "a non-firebender getting hit by fire on exposed skin, without being burned". I just finished telling you in multiple posts how it is disputable. Nitpicking over the last frame doesn't matter in terms of my claim, even though you think it does and is trying to hold onto it like barnacles.

I've already made my point: The animator clearly shows the dude trying to protect himself from the fire, and he is dressed appropriately to do so, and so the example is not an indisputable one. Good indisputable examples 1 way or the other would be something beyond artistic interpretations, such as the Earthbender being half-naked and then not being burnt, or hey a boy standing in the middle of an inferno without bending away the fire, or hey a metalbender not getting hurt after she just got smashed clear through a metal plate.

You know the saying, "almost only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades".

Yes and nitpicking matters to you but doesn't matter to me or to the animators?

You yourself already said that fire burns only when plot demands. The take-home message is that the writers and animators aren't overthinking this the way we are, but neither do they seem to be saying "**** it" like you think. So I'm saying to you: "The clear TREND of the 2 shows is that same-element confers greater-than-Hollywood immunity." Are you going to find single frames which don't live up to that? Of course! But if you watch the scene where that single frame takes place? Up to interpretation! I'm saying that my interpretation holds out thru 2 shows.

I'm repeating myself to hopefully pre-empt any more nitpicking. YES, his forehead and foot is exposed. NO, this is not an indisputable example. WHY? Because Hollywood physics is fudgey and you only have to be in the general ballpark. Hence surviving a nuclear explosion by hiding inside a refrigerator. So how is Mr. Deserter in the general ballpark? Because he's wearing fire-resistant armor (not just plain armor) and he is performing a quick motion of covering himself up right before the fire hits him. It's more believable than firebending coming in Hot and Cold.

If Zuko survived having big chucks of rock thrown at him without a passive resistance to rock without broken bones, why not? It's consistent with other feats by other people within the show.

The difference between you and I, is that I'm not arguing to prove myself right. I genuinely believe that is the writers' intentions throughout the show. I really do believe that is their unwritten rule whenever they fudge action sequences to both be awesome but also avoiding graphic consequences.

I do not think you actually believe that the show's wacky enough to allow Zuko to shrug off boulders but then get stunned by a punch. Maybe you believe the show isn't serious about maintaining consistency because it sucks, but not that.

Edit: Food for thought, btw. The fire only washed over Mr. Deserter for a fraction of a second before Zuko's firebending concussive force knocked him out of the plume. Basically no time at all for his skin to burn or catch on fire, since his clothes didn't (couldn't) catch on fire. It's like passing your hand over an open flame.

I actually looked up fire dynamics (Death Battles always give me unexpected gifts like this). Whether skin gets burnt depends on the heat transference. And human skin has quite a temperature range to climb before it results in a burn. Given the very-short time and small surface area exposed, Mr. Deserter only felt a hot flush over his face. His exposed hairs should have been curled, though.

[Reverent-One]

You brought up the Earthbender Deserter example as an indisputable example of "a non-firebender getting hit by fire on exposed skin, without being burned". I just finished telling you in multiple posts how it is disputable. Nitpicking over the last frame doesn't matter in terms of my claim, even though you think it does and is trying to hold onto it like barnacles.

I've already made my point: The animator clearly shows the dude trying to protect himself from the fire, and he is dressed appropriately to do so, and so the example is not an indisputable one.

The fact that he's trying to protect himself doesn't change anything. Just because he's trying doesn't mean he has to succeed. Zhao tried to get away from the Koizilla. He failed. Your "disputing" is entirely unsupported "the animator totally meant to agree me with guys, I swear". It is in fact indisputable that there was exposed skin that was hit by fire without being burned, visual evidence shows that. That's not nitpicking, that's not allowing you to hide behind "artistic interpretations" when it doesn't apply.

Good indisputable examples 1 way or the other would be something beyond artistic interpretations, such as the Earthbender being half-naked and then not being burnt, or hey a boy standing in the middle of an inferno without bending away the fire, or hey a metalbender not getting hurt after she just got smashed clear through a metal plate.]

Or a firebender shrugging off a rock attack, demonstrating that such behavior is not just limited to earthbenders?

Yes and nitpicking matters to you but doesn't matter to me or to the animators?

You yourself already said that fire burns only when plot demands. The take-home message is that the writers and animators aren't overthinking this the way we are, but neither do they seem to be saying "**** it" like you think. So I'm saying to you: "The clear TREND of the 2 shows is that same-element confers greater-than-Hollywood immunity." Are you going to find single frames which don't live up to that? Of course! But if you watch the scene where that single frame takes place? Up to interpretation! I'm saying that my interpretation holds out thru 2 shows.

I'm repeating myself to hopefully pre-empt any more nitpicking. YES, his forehead and foot is exposed. NO, this is not an indisputable example. WHY? Because Hollywood physics is fudgey and you only have to be in the general ballpark. Hence surviving a nuclear explosion by hiding inside a refrigerator. So how is Mr. Deserter in the general ballpark? Because he's wearing fire-resistant armor (not just plain armor) and he is performing a quick motion of covering himself up right before the fire hits him. It's more believable than firebending coming in Hot and Cold.

The difference between you and I, is that I'm not arguing to prove myself right. I genuinely believe that is the writers' intentions throughout the show. I really do believe that is their unwritten rule whenever they fudge action sequences to both be awesome but also avoiding graphic consequences.

I do not think you actually believe that the show's wacky enough to allow Zuko to shrug off boulders but then get stunned by a punch. Maybe you believe the show isn't serious about maintaining consistency because it sucks, but not that.

That's not wacky, that's hollywood physics for you. And the show allows exactly that. It's not a bad thing, it's not that it's not serious about maintaining consistency, it's how these things work. Like you said, "Hollywood physics is fudgey". None of this provides evidence that they allow greater resistance to benders against the same element though. You'd have to provide examples of benders of one element shrugging off attacks of that element that we see seriously injuring non-benders/benders of different elements. Right now you're just saying that when a bender withstands an attack of a different element, it's just an "artistic interpretation" and "Hollywood physics being fudgey", and when a bender withstands an attack of the same element, it's proof of special resistance. You can't have it both ways.

[MLai]

The fact that he's trying to protect himself doesn't change anything. Just because he's trying doesn't mean he has to succeed. That's not nitpicking, that's not allowing you to hide behind "artistic interpretations" when it doesn't apply.

I was trying to keep things cordial by commenting on fire dynamics as a matter of fun-fact-aside. But since you don't feel the same way, I'll throw that out. Mr. Deserter simply had no time and not enough directly-perpendicular exposed area to get a skin burn from an open flame. And his clothing didn't catch fire (because surprise surprise it's an EK uniform) and so he escaped without nary a smokey tendril.

Have I made my point yet that Mr. Deserter is not a good example either way? His example doesn't work for me or you.

Or a firebender shrugging off a rock attack, demonstrating that such behavior is not just limited to earthbenders?

Degrees of difference. No amount of artistic interpretation would allow a human body to bisect a metallic console by smashing through it, or stand in the middle of a fire higher than his own head. But according to Hollywood yes you can shrug off blunt attacks by rolling with it. Bruce Willis does it enough times.

You'd have to provide examples of benders of one element shrugging off attacks of that element that we see seriously injuring non-benders/benders of different elements..

Done that.
Unless you think non-metalbenders can be smashed through metal like it was cardboard.

Edit: Let me elaborate on earth/metalbending. It's an impact art, sort of like how Superman is a "tactile telekinetic." Korra can just bend a hole in a metal door and then step through, but instead she "smashes through" the metal door as if she has super-strength, when really it's just metalbending. The same logic applies to when a metalbender gets smashed into earth/metal. It looks like they're invulnerable but it's really just "tactile passive bending".

No it's never spoken outright, but everything in the Verse supports this power whether you want to call it "Superman's skin telekinetic biofield" or "passive resistance to her element."

[Reverent-One]

I was trying to keep things cordial by commenting on fire dynamics as a matter of fun-fact-aside. But since you don't feel the same way, I'll throw that out. Mr. Deserter simply had no time and not enough directly-perpendicular exposed area to get a skin burn from an open flame. And his clothing didn't catch fire (because surprise surprise it's an EK uniform) and so he escaped without nary a smokey tendril.

Have I made my point yet that Mr. Deserter is not a good example either way? His example doesn't work for me or you.

Careful, the same would apply to any firebender getting attacked with fire too, since they aren't exposed to fire for any greater amount of time in either series. So if that's what you want to go with, you've just explained away any potential need for firebenders to have extra resistance against fire.

Degrees of difference. No amount of artistic interpretation would allow a human body to bisect a metallic console by smashing through it, or stand in the middle of a fire higher than his own head. But according to Hollywood yes you can shrug off blunt attacks by rolling with it. Bruce Willis does it enough times.

He didn't roll with it, he was running in the opposite direction as it was and hit it dead on (or more accurately, it hit him dead on).

Done that.
Unless you think non-metalbenders can be smashed through metal like it was cardboard.

So we've gone from "they have special resistance to their elements" to "their bodies damage their elements more" now? It should be noted that platinum is a soft metal, and that we don't even see metalbenders being thrown through non-platinum as easily (or really much at all), so that may be a contributing factor.

[MLai]

Why don't we put it to the others in this thread? Please answer me this:
In the final eps of Legend Of Korra, Kuvira body slams Korra inside the control room twice. First, into the ceiling causing a man-sized crater in the metal dome. Second, straight through a sturdy control panel made of visibly-thick metal plating. How do you think Korra managed to shrug this off?

(A) Korra has some level of physical invulnerability similar to Wonder Woman or whoever.
(B) Korra actively bend the metal while she struck it, to avoid injury.
(C) Korra passively bend the metal while she struck it, to avoid injury.
(D) It's a cartoon, dude why you stressin'?

-----------------
(A) So how can she be reeled/stunned from human punches and kicks, or flimsy wooden doors flapping in her face?
(B) So you're saying skilled ATLA-benders can bend using only their minds, while being flung like a ragdoll. Great, this means Toph can too. Garra's sand burial will not be end-game for her.
(C) So we agree.
(D) It's a Death Battle. It's the point.

[If you aren't Reverent One you can stop here.]

Careful, the same would apply to any firebender getting attacked with fire too, since they aren't exposed to fire for any greater amount of time in either series. So if that's what you want to go with, you've just explained away any potential need for firebenders to have extra resistance against fire.

Actually firebender vs firebender battles routinely involve flames which you can't fudge by citing "fire dynamics" or "artistic license".
I shouldn't have to cite examples, because I'd just run down the list from ATLA S01 thru LOK S04.
Why don't you just cite examples that you know I would cite (because you know the franchise as well as I), and then counter-explain them in advance?

He didn't roll with it, he was running in the opposite direction as it was and hit it dead on (or more accurately, it hit him dead on).

Doesn't matter, it's Hollywood physics which we agree is fudgey. If the damage can be handwaved, it would be.
I already agree with you that there is little consistency within the bell curve covered by Hollywood physics; what merely dazed Zuko, killed Jet. I'm talking about blatant outliers (I've cited a few) which even Bruce Willis shouldn't be able to shrug off.

It should be noted that platinum is a soft metal, and that we don't even see metalbenders being thrown through non-platinum as easily (or really much at all), so that may be a contributing factor.

The inside of the robot isn't platinum, which makes sense. This is shown in the plot, and also spoken out loud by Suyin and Lin IIRC.

[Lord Raziere]

I also agree with the previous poster; Toph is in trouble if Gaara figures out her tremor-sense and so starts using airborne sandstorms against her. It's how Aang beat her in her intro episode.

I disagree with your subsequent Batman elaboration. Death Battles assume certain things: Participants both aim to kill. Participants perform according to their in-show feats, regardless of the meta reason.

(So Rainbow Dash performing hax physics against Starscream is allowed, because that's what she does in her show. The meta reason that her show fails real physics is irrelevant.)

Anyways, in a Death Battle Toph would not lose because she's trying to not kill somebody. She'll kill Gaara.
Toph would, however, fight in her normal way. And she fights to end fights very quickly in her normal style. She doesn't drag things out or play around.

oh but, even then, Gaara is optimized for killing. Toph isn't. she may be aiming to kill, but aiming to kill and trained to kill are two entirely different things.

its the difference between some gun nut who practices at the firing range everyday and a professional sniper who is used to putting bullets in peoples heads. they both may shoot, both are dangerous, but one is far more dangerous than the other.

[Traab]

Just to point out, on damage resistance, in naruto world, the ninja take absurd amounts of damage and are fine. They get sent through trees, through rock outcroppings, punched into the ground so hard a new lake bed is formed, and still are able to continue fighting. Zabuza for one example, gets both his arms turned into worthless dead lumps and still is able to carve his way through an army of mercs, getting impaled by over a dozen weapons and still is able to gut his treacherous former boss with a knife, then stagger on back to his side of the bridge before finally collapsing. Then has time for a fairly lengthy goodbye speech. Thats of course ignoring the hax ninjas with naruto healing factors, spare organs, or religious powers from evil gods. So damage mitigation is hardly something unique. They can cut off their own limbs with blades of lightning and keep fighting full force because why not?

And much like any anime, exhaustion is played off as a dramatic effect for the hero to push through and show how determined to win he is. Its almost never consistent, and rarely has any effect beyond an internal monologue and his opponent getting a few free hits while he is too "tired" to fight back. Until he magically isnt and summons up the strength to whup arse. So does that mean we should ignore fatigue as a factor since its obviously a non issue in the naruto universe?

[Zevox]

Why don't we put it to the others in this thread? Please answer me this:
In the final eps of Legend Of Korra, Kuvira body slams Korra inside the control room twice. First, into the ceiling causing a man-sized crater in the metal dome. Second, straight through a sturdy control panel made of visibly-thick metal plating. How do you think Korra managed to shrug this off?

(A) Korra has some level of physical invulnerability similar to Wonder Woman or whoever.
(B) Korra actively bend the metal while she struck it, to avoid injury.
(C) Korra passively bend the metal while she struck it, to avoid injury.
(D) It's a cartoon, dude why you stressin'?

D. I sincerely doubt any significant amount of thought goes into those kind of matters. Even if the creators wanted to, they wouldn't be allowed to be realistic with the kind of harm a person would take from the kind of fighting benders routinely do, so it's simply treated the way any other cartoon would - if the blow isn't fatal and doesn't knock them out (both of which only happen for plot reasons, when one character is supposed to win or get a significant upper hand in the fight), they'll just seem to take it, be hurt in the moment, and then get back into it afterward. Maybe you get a bruise or something, but rarely anything more.

[Tengu_temp]

No mater who wins thre will be so many angry fanboys, the rage will be delicious. Somebody brings the popcorn.

Indeed. After all, the only character quality that matters is personal strength. Coolness, uniqueness, complexity of character - none of this is as important as muh power level, and My Guy being able to beat Your Guy in what's pretty much a ****-waving contest by proxy.
This is why Son Goku is a better character than Tyrion Lannister.

(Also, I saw maybe 2 episodes of Death Battle, but between their incredibly poorly done research and sensationalist Deadliest Warrior-like style, the series didn't exactly endear itself to me. To put it mildly.)

[Starbuck_II]

If we really are figuring who is the most powerful?
Then the ranks are:
Goku
Devil Man
Everyone else.

Everyone but Goku is established to die to Devil Man since they have some semblance of evil in them.

But back to this one:
I do wonder how we would rate damage resistance/endurance since both have effects that are above our experiences (if this is neutral ground then do we use both?).

[Reverent-One]

Actually firebender vs firebender battles routinely involve flames which you can't fudge by citing "fire dynamics" or "artistic license".
I shouldn't have to cite examples, because I'd just run down the list from ATLA S01 thru LOK S04.
Why don't you just cite examples that you know I would cite (because you know the franchise as well as I), and then counter-explain them in advance?

I actually have trouble thinking of any. Most firebender fights involve a lot of defense by the benders, either dodging, deflecting (often through splitting the fire so it goes to either side of them), or straight up dispersing the fire away. When they are hit, it's normally something like the hit on the earthbender, contact for only a split second that throws them back. And if that's not enough to burn the exposed skin of the earthbender, there's nothing special of it not burning a firebender either. I can't think of a time a firebender had more sustained actual contact with fire (even just a couple of seconds), much less when one did so and didn't get burned.

Doesn't matter, it's Hollywood physics which we agree is fudgey. If the damage can be handwaved, it would be.
I already agree with you that there is little consistency within the bell curve covered by Hollywood physics; what merely dazed Zuko, killed Jet. I'm talking about blatant outliers (I've cited a few) which even Bruce Willis shouldn't be able to shrug off.


The inside of the robot isn't platinum, which makes sense. This is shown in the plot, and also spoken out loud by Suyin and Lin IIRC.

You're right, and Kurviva bends some stuff in the room too. So like Zevox says, this falls into the sort of handwave cartoons can do with blunt force trauma, either it kills/knocks them out, or they mostly ignore it other than a bit of pain. The distinct lack of complaints about this after the episode aired indicates it's not something that most people can't buy.

[Kyberwulf]

First of, I think it's a pet peeve of mine, when people say Gaara Won the fight with Rock Lee. If you watch that fight over, Rock Lee WOULD have won if he didn't shift his focus to Neji. Even after, he still stood up to fight at the end, the fight was interrupted. So technically, he didn't lose. .. .

If this was a popularity contest, I would give this to Toph, Hands down. I just like her character much better.

However, if we look at it impartially. This is the case of a Swordmaster bringing a sword to a gunfight...and her opponent has brought a Tommygun.

I like Toph. She has the ability and tactical mindset to defeat Gaara.

What does Garra have? Power, and the willingness to use it maliciously.

If we interpose the two worlds together. I think Toph would be the leader of a village. She would be one of the Kage. Gaara would still be a Jinchuriki. If Gaara where to be placed inside of Avater, that would be akin to him being of Avatar status. (If this was Avatar vs. Gaara, I think the Avatar would always win.)

I am not saying, that toph would lose handsdown though. Gaara has shown himself to be arrogant enough that Toph could get some good hits. If this was like Deadliest Warriors, out of 2,000 death matches. I think Toph would would win some, in the end though, it would come down to something like 55% to 45% in favor of Gaara. AS much as I like Toph, she just doesn't have the staying power to live through the onslaught that the Jinchuriki can do.

The way I see the fight going down.
In the beginning open shots are done to assess the defense and abilities of each other. I think Toph would be able to make better use of this information then Gaara. After that, the real attacks are thrown. This is the most vital part for Toph. This is where she has to break through his Living sand armor. I don't think she will be able to take control of it, as I see it as a waterbender trying to take control of someone's blood. This is also the part where Gaara usually keeps his guard to far down. He probably wouldn't think much of Toph or her Bending. Trusting to much in his overpowering abilities. If it reaches the next part, the endgame. Toph loses hands down. If it comes to just all out Brawn vs. brawn. Then it's over. The moment Gaara realizes what kind of Threat Toph poses. He won't hold back anymore, and I don't think Toph is really ready for the sheer magnitude of Gaara's abilites. I don't see her preparing anything in advance that can deal with Gaara going all out. As much as I like Toph, I haven't seen her or any other master Earthbender do anything in the scope of what Gaara can do.

I see this fight going the same way as Gaara vs. Rock Lee. If she maintains focus, she has a slim chance. If her mind wonders once.. It's game over.

[Traab]

Dude, lee lost. He flinched from pain trying to launch garra for the initial lotus, which gave garra time to escape. Then at the end he tore his own body apart and was crippled even further by garra crushing his arm and leg. He was unconscious when he stood up. Yeah it was silly dramatic license, but he was crippled, knocked out, and the fight was over. I like lee a lot, dude is awesome, dude is hardcore when it comes to working hard to get better, but he just didnt have enough to finish the job. His best move causes him nearly as much damage as it causes his opponent. There are double edged attacks, then there are stupidly double edged attacks. Even if he had WON that fight, and taken out garra, he would have likely been unable to participate in the finals, having crippled his body almost beyond repair.

[Flickerdart]

If we interpose the two worlds together. I think Toph would be the leader of a village. She would be one of the Kage. Gaara would still be a Jinchuriki.

Nah, Toph isn't ruler material. That's why she was Police Chief and not on the council, and that's why she retired to a swamp afterwards. Hell, the Beifongs are a prominent family, she could have made a move for rulership of a city if not the whole Earth Kingdom after the Queen's death. A position that lasts until you die? Not for her.

[Kato]

Nah, Toph isn't ruler material. That's why she was Police Chief and not on the council, and that's why she retired to a swamp afterwards. Hell, the Beifongs are a prominent family, she could have made a move for rulership of a city if not the whole Earth Kingdom after the Queen's death. A position that lasts until you die? Not for her.

... somehow suggesting you don't need to be an adequate ruler to lead a police force... But yeah, Toph maybe likes to tell other people what to do but I think she doesn't like the whole responsibility nonsense... quite frankly. I have no idea how Aang (?) ever got her to be police chief.

[SIZE=3](A) Korra has some level of physical invulnerability similar to Wonder Woman or whoever.
(B) Korra actively bend the metal while she struck it, to avoid injury.
(C) Korra passively bend the metal while she struck it, to avoid injury.
(D) It's a cartoon, dude why you stressin'?

D, pretty clearly for me. The creators don't care that much about the realism. It's not the worst case of cartoon physics but I'm pretty sure people often enough withstand things that should kill/harm them from various elements without major injury, and other times it works as it should (more or less). But that's just my opinion and no, I won't go through hours of Avatar and Korra to look for proof on one side or the other. It's just a cartoon.

If we really are figuring who is the most powerful?
Then the ranks are:
Goku
Devil Man
Everyone else.

Everyone but Goku is established to die to Devil Man since they have some semblance of evil in them.

Oh my... let's not start another argument. (I'll just assume you are joking)