Upcoming Screw Attack Death Battle

[Mato]

That's true, it's not like that get's attached to a shuriken or Kuni 99% of the time and she can sense Metal via her earth sense. Or like she was able to mount defenses and evasions on Combustion Man's attacks. Wait.

Point of order canonically she does not have the sensing abilities you claim. Combustion man also takes a deep breath prior to every shot allowing her to anticipate his attacks.

There is also the point that Toph's display of artistry is like claiming Michelangelo can pick up and throw the 16th chapel in combat and has any sandbender in the series shown combat proficiency with their sand? It's all theoretical guess work against cannon. And in your case, also built on the idea that if Toph can see like a normal person her abilities in every other form of measurement surpasses Gaara's.

If you can't prove your first claim, what is your tactic against the next ten or thirty that can spring up?

Ah I didn't know you could find the extras on the website like that. I figured they were like DVD extras or something. Still didn't see any evidence there that she can sense earth mid flight. I still think its pretty likely that she can though.

Nickelodeon is unique about supporting their web content, they probably make everything up with the enormous merchandising they do with their shows.

Even if Toph could do kung-fu faster than Gaara could do seals, he doesn't need to do anything for his sand to defend him - which would definitely include deforming to avoid crushing him. Toph trying to control Gaara's defensive sand would enter into a pointless tug-of-war with Shukaku while Gaara is free to finish his techniques.

Death Battle would remove the tailed beast but the protection was reconned into Karura's dying wishes and will, just a nitpick.

She'd lose control anyway, even at the base trait Gaara can add his own will to the automatically controlled sand. Her rocks are constantly battered aside or destroyed rendering them apparently useless after being thrown and even her man-sized granite boulders were successfully blown apart by spark spark boom man's wagon-sized explosions. Her opponent is a man that can essentially block city-sized explosions with coarse powder by refusing to let it move and as a matter of fact has he won against an opponent whose only style was anti-sand winning gold dust.

What about combat styles?

And training? One of them was self taught, the other was trained to murder people on day one and can walk on water.

And since everyone wants to get hung up on how blind Toph is. It's worth noting Gaara as displayed in the fourth ninja war and in the battle against Kimimaro he can sense anything moving within his sand and he can disperse it over large areas. His sensory abilities are proven to be as powerful as some wish Toph's were.

Except he also has three eyes.

Oh, and on superman vs goku, you should read this.

[Traab]

Pfft, superman would just tow the solar system out of the way, making his attack worthless.

[Devonix]

Pfft, superman would just tow the solar system out of the way, making his attack worthless.

Also that's just Cell bragging. It's impossible. flat out impossible for that blast to destroy the solar system. A blast of energy not even the size of an asteroid can't even hit .99 percent of the solar system. let alone destroy it.

[Ibrinar]

Also that's just Cell bragging. It's impossible. flat out impossible for that blast to destroy the solar system. A blast of energy not even the size of an asteroid can't even hit .99 percent of the solar system. let alone destroy it.

Or when it hits something a shockwave results which destroys the solar system. I wonder how far you have to scatter the sun to prevent it from simply reforming.

[Devonix]

Or when it hits something a shockwave results which destroys the solar system. I wonder how far you have to scatter the sun to prevent it from simply reforming.

The shockwave from Kid buu's deathball was only big enough to just about cover the planet. Even that wouldn't even damage a sun.

People really underestimate just how big a solar system is and how big a star is.

[Ibrinar]

The shockwave from Kid buu's deathball was only big enough to just about cover the planet. Even that wouldn't even damage a sun.

People really underestimate just how big a solar system is and how big a star is.

Sure, but since when does the author having little sense of scale or no understanding of physics invalidate abilities for the purpose of death battles? (Though yeah stated powers are weak evidence.)

Spoiler: off topic dragonball stuff

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Maybe Cell just bragged yes, which is why statements is a weak basis to judge their power, but that doesn't follow from observing kid buu's attack.

I think it's a reasonable interpretation that Ki attacks in DB can be deliberately limited in their damage area even if they are stronger than weaker attacks also capable of destroying the area or more. Otherwise after a while every miss would kill all live on the planet.

(Killing all live requires very little energy compared to destroying the actual planet. Destroying planets happens before cell iirc. Destroying the moon was a very low level feat. The power characters have grows exponentially. After a point a ki attack not capable of destroying all live on earth shouldn't even scratch them and yet they fight on planets and the collateral damage is relatively limited.)

I simply don't know enough about DBZ to judge the statement, but I don't find your counter points convincing going by what I remember of the series.

[Traab]

The shockwave from Kid buu's deathball was only big enough to just about cover the planet. Even that wouldn't even damage a sun.

People really underestimate just how big a solar system is and how big a star is.

I had thought about pointing out the sheer diameter of a universe and how silly it was to claim you could blow it all up with one beam, but I thought it would be more amusing to go the sillier, but still canonish route of "lol nope, superman one ups that." But hey, maybe it would work once every many thousands of years, when all the planets are in alignment. He sends out a beam strong enough to pierce all the worlds and the sun in a straight line. Even if a few planets are strong or just large enough to not explode from the damage, the solar system would still be wrecked by the loss of all the other planets. Give it a few million years for gravitational drift and the solar system is gone. See? He was totally telling the truth!

[Mato]

Spoiler: off topic dragonball stuff

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I think it's a reasonable interpretation that Ki attacks in DB can be deliberately limited in their damage area even if they are stronger than weaker attacks also capable of destroying the area or more. Otherwise after a while every miss would kill all live on the planet.

Spoiler: More off topic

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I highly agree. Attacks change from being explosive to annihilating within a limited distance. More power over a smaller area in order to damage even stronger opponents.

Beam attacks are notoriously based on that. Even as far back as Dragonball Master Roshi's Kamehameha cut clear through a mountain without detonating a huge nuclear blast wiping out all life for dozens (hundreds?) of miles like the equivalent amount of energy would. There is enough energy used to accomplish the feat, but it's focused into a narrow beam because anything less is a waste of time and energy. The "size" is just a lie, like power levels and how you can have a pink self-repeating regenerative planet killing bomb that's only like 3ft tall.

[Jayngfet]

Spoiler: More off topic

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I highly agree. Attacks change from being explosive to annihilating within a limited distance. More power over a smaller area in order to damage even stronger opponents.

Beam attacks are notoriously based on that. Even as far back as Dragonball Master Roshi's Kamehameha cut clear through a mountain without detonating a huge nuclear blast wiping out all life for dozens (hundreds?) of miles like the equivalent amount of energy would. There is enough energy used to accomplish the feat, but it's focused into a narrow beam because anything less is a waste of time and energy. The "size" is just a lie, like power levels and how you can have a pink self-repeating regenerative planet killing bomb that's only like 3ft tall.

Spoiler: Dragonball

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Which is in line with what we know about how Dragonball attacks work. They aren't wild firings so much as energy concentrated into a specific form. Shifting energy around is how they make their power levels go up and down and it's something they all know how to do pretty consistently.

Cell blowing up the solar system energy wise is believable, given how far he is supposed to be past Frieza, who could take out a whole planet.

[MLai]

Even if DBZ combatants are made out of antimatter, I don't think they have enough energy density to release the amount of energy required to physically destroy the sun or the solar system. A DBZ character simply can't pack that much energy inside that amount of mass.

Either the "energy beam" is a sort of chain reaction which continually releases more energy based on positive feedback upon striking its target, or a DBZ character is capable of warping spacetime to create unphysical values for the stress-energy tensor. And if I talk anymore I will completely leave the realm where I sorta have a clue to what I'm saying.

[Lord Raziere]

Kid Buu literally blew up planet Earth with one powerful attack, as well as blowing up a bunch of other planets one by one, we see him doing so right in the anime, multiple times without seeming to break a sweat. so yeah, I'm pretty sure they can blow up a solar system. forget physics, DBZ long ago punched those in the face when Namek was blown to smithereens by Frieza, doing a feat with only his finger only matched by the Empire from Star Wars spending 40 years or so building a big space station just to do the same.

which probably means that Frieza would win in a Frieza Vs. Star Wars match up. as in all of Star Wars. not the expanded universe, just the stuff shown in the movies. I mean it would go something like this:

Vader: Now witness the power of this fully operational Death Star!
Frieza: Oh, you mean that big ball of garbage that needs to charge up and thousands of people just to fire once to do something that I can do in a few seconds with one finger? How cute!
*Frieza destroys the Death Star*
Frieza: Now....I think I need to have a word with this "Darth Sidious"....show him who the real overlord is around here.

[Traab]

Even if DBZ combatants are made out of antimatter, I don't think they have enough energy density to release the amount of energy required to physically destroy the sun or the solar system. A DBZ character simply can't pack that much energy inside that amount of mass.

Either the "energy beam" is a sort of chain reaction which continually releases more energy based on positive feedback upon striking its target, or a DBZ character is capable of warping spacetime to create unphysical values for the stress-energy tensor. And if I talk anymore I will completely leave the realm where I sorta have a clue to what I'm saying.

Are... are you really trying to argue physics with dragonball z?

[Jayngfet]

Are... are you really trying to argue physics with dragonball z?

Quoted for truth.

Dragonball is a world where aliens and wizards fight robots over time machines while dinosaurs run around. Logic has no place here.

[Traab]

Quoted for truth.

Dragonball is a world where aliens and wizards fight robots over time machines while dinosaurs run around. Logic has no place here.

That sounds like the worlds most awesome metal album cover. Or possibly the best art design on a van.

[Devonix]

Kid Buu literally blew up planet Earth with one powerful attack, as well as blowing up a bunch of other planets one by one, we see him doing so right in the anime, multiple times without seeming to break a sweat. so yeah, I'm pretty sure they can blow up a solar system. forget physics, DBZ long ago punched those in the face when Namek was blown to smithereens by Frieza, doing a feat with only his finger only matched by the Empire from Star Wars spending 40 years or so building a big space station just to do the same.

which probably means that Frieza would win in a Frieza Vs. Star Wars match up. as in all of Star Wars. not the expanded universe, just the stuff shown in the movies. I mean it would go something like this:

Vader: Now witness the power of this fully operational Death Star!
Frieza: Oh, you mean that big ball of garbage that needs to charge up and thousands of people just to fire once to do something that I can do in a few seconds with one finger? How cute!
*Frieza destroys the Death Star*
Frieza: Now....I think I need to have a word with this "Darth Sidious"....show him who the real overlord is around here.

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

[Hyena]

Kid Buu literally blew up planet Earth with one powerful attack, as well as blowing up a bunch of other planets one by one, we see him doing so right in the anime, multiple times without seeming to break a sweat. so yeah, I'm pretty sure they can blow up a solar system. forget physics, DBZ long ago punched those in the face when Namek was blown to smithereens by Frieza, doing a feat with only his finger only matched by the Empire from Star Wars spending 40 years or so building a big space station just to do the same.

which probably means that Frieza would win in a Frieza Vs. Star Wars match up. as in all of Star Wars. not the expanded universe, just the stuff shown in the movies. I mean it would go something like this:

Vader: Now witness the power of this fully operational Death Star!
Frieza: Oh, you mean that big ball of garbage that needs to charge up and thousands of people just to fire once to do something that I can do in a few seconds with one finger? How cute!
*Frieza destroys the Death Star*
Frieza: Now....I think I need to have a word with this "Darth Sidious"....show him who the real overlord is around here.

Frieza vs Star Wars? Well, that one is easy. Star Wars wins by virtue of being an actually good franchise.

[Starbuck_II]

Kid Buu literally blew up planet Earth with one powerful attack, as well as blowing up a bunch of other planets one by one, we see him doing so right in the anime, multiple times without seeming to break a sweat. so yeah, I'm pretty sure they can blow up a solar system. forget physics, DBZ long ago punched those in the face when Namek was blown to smithereens by Frieza, doing a feat with only his finger only matched by the Empire from Star Wars spending 40 years or so building a big space station just to do the same.

which probably means that Frieza would win in a Frieza Vs. Star Wars match up. as in all of Star Wars. not the expanded universe, just the stuff shown in the movies. I mean it would go something like this:

Vader: Now witness the power of this fully operational Death Star!
Frieza: Oh, you mean that big ball of garbage that needs to charge up and thousands of people just to fire once to do something that I can do in a few seconds with one finger? How cute!
*Frieza destroys the Death Star*
Frieza: Now....I think I need to have a word with this "Darth Sidious"....show him who the real overlord is around here.

Actually Death Star isn't a planet, he can only blow up planets.
Remember his energy ball has to hit the core before it blew up the planet.

[Traab]

Actually Death Star isn't a planet, he can only blow up planets.
Remember his energy ball has to hit the core before it blew up the planet.

You dont think he could blow up the power core of the death star easier than a torpedo?

[Kato]

Spoiler: Dragonball

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Cell blowing up the solar system energy wise is believable, given how far he is supposed to be past Frieza, who could take out a whole planet.

Spoiler: DBZ power bla

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Eh... nope. Cell is by all accounts maybe ten or a hundred times as powerful as Freeza. Maybe even a thousand. But Freeza (and prior Vegeta) did have some trouble taking out a planet, as in Freeza couldn't do it instantly but had to hit the core and then wait around. So, assuming Freeza with his roughly 10 Mio power level can just about blow up a planet (though one has to wonder how he blew up Vegeta without powering up but then Freeza is still at 500 k power level) and Cell is just short of a billion, then he might be able to blow up a thousand earth sized planets. But the sun alone weighs more than a hundred thousand Earths and has the volume of a mio Earth sized planets. So... okay, if we're generous here maybe Cell can blow up the sun, (depending on what you take into account for that to work) and that would of course screw up the solar system but he damn sure can't make an explosion the size of the solar system (which to me is what "blow up the solar system" means)

Of course this assumes their solar system looks like ours and there is any way to apply physics to DBZ... but if we want to do that, going by those numbers... nope, I don't see how Cell can blow up the solar system. (Also, as we all know, power levels are made up anyway, so... )

[MLai]

Frieza vs Star Wars? Well, that one is easy. Star Wars wins by virtue of being an actually good franchise.

Seriously? You want to support Star Wars as a good franchise by default? That position is hardly uncontroversial.

Also, DBZ is awesome franchise. It was a pioneering landmark in manga in many many ways. There's a reason it was globally popular.

[Ibrinar]

Spoiler: DBZ power bla

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Eh... nope. Cell is by all accounts maybe ten or a hundred times as powerful as Freeza. Maybe even a thousand. But Freeza (and prior Vegeta) did have some trouble taking out a planet, as in Freeza couldn't do it instantly but had to hit the core and then wait around. So, assuming Freeza with his roughly 10 Mio power level can just about blow up a planet (though one has to wonder how he blew up Vegeta without powering up but then Freeza is still at 500 k power level) and Cell is just short of a billion, then he might be able to blow up a thousand earth sized planets. But the sun alone weighs more than a hundred thousand Earths and has the volume of a mio Earth sized planets. So... okay, if we're generous here maybe Cell can blow up the sun, (depending on what you take into account for that to work) and that would of course screw up the solar system but he damn sure can't make an explosion the size of the solar system (which to me is what "blow up the solar system" means)

Of course this assumes their solar system looks like ours and there is any way to apply physics to DBZ... but if we want to do that, going by those numbers... nope, I don't see how Cell can blow up the solar system. (Also, as we all know, power levels are made up anyway, so... )

Spoiler

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Frieza explicitly stated he held back though. "I must've held back too much power" (and he was already pretty damaged). I would count sun exploding as solar system destroying. But yeah the step between planet and sun is big. Assuming power levels grow linearly with destructive power the difference between 10 mio and 1 billion isn't enough.

Anyway actual thread topic. Going by the preview they have choosen a stony mountain as battlefield. I suppose it's fair enough. Plenty stone for Toph at the beginning and plenty material to turn into sand for Gaara. And her normal stone attacks have trouble with his defense, maybe she will do something larger scale after that.
Anyway I think I bet on Gaara.

[Lord Raziere]

Frieza vs Star Wars? Well, that one is easy. Star Wars wins by virtue of being an actually good franchise.

again, arguing for writer vs battle not a real one.

if people are seriously going to argue whether one franchise would win over another based on whether they like it more or not, and not on their capabilities shown, then we should throw out all pretense of this being a VS battle, and just call it what it is: a popularity contest.

because let me tell you, I can say that I like a book about Orcs being heroes better than say, One Piece which I hate, but I cannot say that those Orcs would win just because I think they are a better story and like them more. One Piece would kick their ass no matter how much I would want them to win and I have to accept that, thats just cold hard reality for you. and if the cold hard reality is that Superman would win against Goku, no matter how much I want Goku to win, Superman will wins. just wanting something doesn't make it happen.

hell I could say that I like Artemis Fowl better than One Piece because its actually intelligent and has smart characters who have to solve things using their brain, but if they fought against the characters of One Piece, One Piece would still win, thats just the truth. doesn't stop me from feeling sad about it, but I have to accept it all the same.

[Kitten Champion]

again, arguing for writer vs battle not a real one.

George Lucas versus Akira Toriyama?

Hmm...

I honestly don't know, neither are really popular on the basis of their quality writing.

[Mato]

because let me tell you, I can say that I like a book about Orcs being heroes better than say, One Piece which I hate, but I cannot say that those Orcs would win just because I think they are a better story and like them more. One Piece would kick their ass no matter how much I would want them to win and I have to accept that, thats just cold hard reality for you.

If you stand by that you should watch Goku vs Super 17, the android easily adsorbs ss4 (x4,000 base power) Goku's energy blasts obtaining a substantial energy boost allowing him to match ss4 Goku's strength and speed. But the base form kid Goku could still punch a hole in his chest, mortally wounding him and preventing him from adsorbing the follow up blast, by using the dragon fist technique.

So, is it dragon fist is so powerful that an exhausted Goku can overcome the adsorbing technique and kill an opponent four thousand times stronger than him, or as backed by the shapechanging effect it's the supernatural destructo disk of the series and worked because it couldn't be adsorbed in the first place.

[Lord Raziere]

If you stand by that you should watch Goku vs Super 17, the android easily adsorbs ss4 (x4,000 base power) Goku's energy blasts obtaining a substantial energy boost allowing him to match ss4 Goku's strength and speed. But the base form kid Goku could still punch a hole in his chest, mortally wounding him and preventing him from adsorbing the follow up blast, by using the dragon fist technique.

So, is it dragon fist is so powerful that an exhausted Goku can overcome the adsorbing technique and kill an opponent four thousand times stronger than him, or as backed by the shapechanging effect it's the supernatural destructo disk of the series and worked because it couldn't be adsorbed in the first place.

showing counts better than telling. what is shown trumps what is said. after all, what is said can be wrong or mistaken, but what is shown can't be disputed. we can't dispute that it shown that Goku can do that, so we can only discuss how what is told to us is probably the wrong information when we see something shown to us. simple. observational evidence trumps verbal explanation.

I'm a scientist about this sort of thing, if you see an inconsistency that just means the system you are using to model this is outdated, and that you need to revise, and if the characters say something that is inconsistent with what is shown,that just means the system they use is outdated. science is all about figuring out whether or not the model for your universe is outdated or not, and if characters in a show have an outdated system for it that just means the characters are wrong about how this works, not that the show is inconsistent.

[MLai]

I thought we're not supposed to use the word "science" in the same sentence as "DBZ"?

[Lord Raziere]

I thought we're not supposed to use the word "science" in the same sentence as "DBZ"?

your not using science, your using faith in a physics that doesn't apply to DBZ. you say that anything in DBZ can't be possible because of physics, when that kind of physics doesn't apply to DBZ because its shown to not work, and therefore the model is outdated. and outdated model that doesn't apply is nothing but a particularly boring belief. you can believe that the world is flat based on your evidence of looking around you and seeing nothing but flat ground but that doesn't mean your right, it just means you haven't made the right measurements or looked at the horizon.

science is the philosophy of saying "the sky is green!" then looking outside and saying "nope I was wrong, the sky is blue!" because your observed the evidence contradicts you statement, and therefore your wrong! thats what science is all about! making a hypothesis, checking to see if the universe agrees with it, then correcting yourself when the universe disagrees.

the universe of DBZ disagrees with you, therefore your wrong, therefore you have to build a model where the DBZ universe is correct as shown by the universe of DBZ! thats science!

[Prime32]

If you stand by that you should watch Goku vs Super 17, the android easily adsorbs ss4 (x4,000 base power) Goku's energy blasts obtaining a substantial energy boost allowing him to match ss4 Goku's strength and speed. But the base form kid Goku could still punch a hole in his chest, mortally wounding him and preventing him from adsorbing the follow up blast, by using the dragon fist technique.

So, is it dragon fist is so powerful that an exhausted Goku can overcome the adsorbing technique and kill an opponent four thousand times stronger than him, or as backed by the shapechanging effect it's the supernatural destructo disk of the series and worked because it couldn't be adsorbed in the first place.

No, that was just a flaw in Super 17's design where he had to shut down his physical defenses while absorbing energy.

[Traab]

Anyway actual thread topic. Going by the preview they have choosen a stony mountain as battlefield. I suppose it's fair enough. Plenty stone for Toph at the beginning and plenty material to turn into sand for Gaara. And her normal stone attacks have trouble with his defense, maybe she will do something larger scale after that.
Anyway I think I bet on Gaara.

So far garra hasnt really gone all out on attack himself, so its hard to tell how effective he is against her own defenses, but yeah, its not looking good for her standard attacks. And as she said, he is already grinding the earth into sand, which will increase his offense and defense exponentially. Im not certain whats going on with the sand orb, is he buying time to change the battlefield? Is he calling on shukaku? Either way, toph is on the clock, she needs to come up with an attack big enough to breach his defenses before his defenses get even worse. Plus, I really get the feeling this is the angle screw attack is going with. The land turns to sand, which weakens her sensing abilities, while strengthening garras, garra now has an entire new tier of power to work with in addition to that. In the end, toph will put up a valiant struggle, but just be overwhelmed as it seems the entire world turns against her.

[Devonix]

You dont think he could blow up the power core of the death star easier than a torpedo?

I've always assumed that for some reason planets are incredibly fragile in the DBZ universe. I mean People in Dragon ball could blow them up Picolo could blow up the earth with a casual attack in the beginning of Z. And yet the ammount of force required to harm them, or that they could exhert in physical force was far weaker.

When both weak people and strong people are pulling off the same feats you can't really scale anything.

Beginning of Z ( Blowing up a planet is a big deal )

End of Z ( Blowing up a planet for some reason is still a big deal In fact it's treated as the same big deal and something people still get surprised can happen)