Most evil superhero

[Cheesegear]

These characters don't get to have thematic arcs.

Strongly disagree. Are you trying to say that Batman: Hush isn't a good story because at some point it was retconned away? The Killing Joke isn't an amazing book? Superman: Red Son, or All-Star Superman aren't some of the best Superman stories that exist because they're not in mainstream continuity? Or the Spider-Verse books for a Marvel example?

Morrison's run on Batman & Robin where Grayson steps up to become Batman, with Damien as Robin, and Yost writes Red Robin and Tim turns out to be more like Bruce than Grayson ever was? That's some really good stuff. Then New 52 came out with an entire new set of continuity. But, see, the thing is, I still have Battle for the Cowl, and Grayson-as-Batman books, and Tim-as-Red Robin. The New 52 can't change the books I already own. The New 52 can only change what comes later, in its separate continuity after Flashpoint Paradox (another terrible story because it's out of continuity, right?). New 52 can't change Hush. New 52 can't rewrite Killing Joke.

At worst, I can treat pre-New 52 Batman & Robin and Red Robin as a series that ended on a good note, which is what people want, right? For the series to end before it becomes stale, like Manga (except not really in a lot of cases)? If I want to read New 52 Batman, I can if I want, but whatever happens in the New 52 wont change the fact that the Battle for the Cowl was a thing that actually happened, and that Grayson really was Batman for a while.

I shouldn't read Court of Owls, Night of the Owls or Death of the Family, 'cause one day, maybe, they might be removed from continuity? No. Just no.

Also, you're not allowed to enjoy Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy anymore because Ben Affleck's Batman is going to be different. Also, Batman: The Animated Series is also terrible because there have been several iterations of Batman cartoon since then which remove it from continuity, so you're not allowed to like that, either.

Now we've veered far off-topic.

[007_ctrl_room]

Punisher & Black Widow.

I first thought of The Punisher too on this question, but revenge/vengeance is justified, isn't it? :)

[Mystic Muse]

I first thought of The Punisher too on this question, but revenge/vengeance is justified, isn't it? :)

That's entirely a point of view thing. Plenty of people believe revenge is NEVER justified.

[Avilan the Grey]

Point is that a lot of people see the initial act of vengeance as justified. Massacring small time drug dealers who operate out of college? Not so much. Which is why he kind of stopped doing that after he got his own book, and stopped being "that villain that tries to shoot Daredevil all the time" (he was, after all introduced as a pure villain).

[t209]

Spoken as somebody who clearly never read Deadpool. It might suprise you, but there is a lot of personal growth for this guy, he is, in good hands, very introspective. And hell, there are moments when he can be downrigh depressing because at the end of the day he is a tragic character, funny makeup or not. "the Good, the Bad and the Ugly" storyline had one such moment:

Spoiler

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Deadpool tries to get a guy who was kidnapping him for years and using his body parts to create supersoldiers for North Korea, save victims of said experiments and woman who might or might not have gave birth to his child. And his actions are reckless and lead to this:

Kinda sad for the goofy psychopath to have a breakdown like this since

Spoiler: Pony, Vinland Saga, and SaGa

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Pinkie Pie in Party of One, Thorfinn in Vinland Saga after his half Welsh captain killed by Royal Guard when the king planned to invade Wales, and Mako after his dad's death in Saga.

.

[Cheesegear]

I first thought of The Punisher too on this question, but revenge/vengeance is justified, isn't it? :)

Ghost Rider says 'Yes.'

As I said earlier in the thread, The Punisher ignores due process and goes straight to execution first-degree murder, second-degree murder, third-degree murder and manslaughter. Depending on who you ask, this may or may not be okay, and is brought up several times in his title all the time. Sometimes it is justified, sometimes it's not. Which brings us to the second point of Punisher - he's his own arbiter. There's no oversight committee on Castle (except when there is). Who decides who is guilty? Frank does. Who judges who gets executed murdered? Frank does. Who decides if Punisher is doing the right thing? Frank does. He does what he wants, when he wants.
(Also see; Superior Spider-Man)

There's a lot of problems with how Frank Castle does business.

[Starwulf]

Ghost Rider says 'Yes.'

As I said earlier in the thread, The Punisher ignores due process and goes straight to execution first-degree murder, second-degree murder, third-degree murder and manslaughter. Depending on who you ask, this may or may not be okay, and is brought up several times in his title all the time. Sometimes it is justified, sometimes it's not. Which brings us to the second point of Punisher - he's his own arbiter. There's no oversight committee on Castle (except when there is). Who decides who is guilty? Frank does. Who judges who gets executed murdered? Frank does. Who decides if Punisher is doing the right thing? Frank does. He does what he wants, when he wants.
(Also see; Superior Spider-Man)

There's a lot of problems with how Frank Castle does business.

Has he(The Punisher) ever executed someone who was totally innocent of the crimes he believed them to have committed? If no, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he's done. Due process rarely pans out in favor of justice, if he's executing crime lords who are responsible for hundreds/thousands/more people being murdered or addicted to drugs, then he's doing society a favor.

[theNater]

Has he(The Punisher) ever executed someone who was totally innocent of the crimes he believed them to have committed?

He's absolutely tried. The one I know of managed to survive thanks to Spider-Sense, but if you're thinking of things realistically, they can't all have been so fortunate.

If no, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he's done.

He has opened fire on litterbugs. In fairness, they were actually guilty of littering.

[Starwulf]

He's absolutely tried. The one I know of managed to survive thanks to Spider-Sense, but if you're thinking of things realistically, they can't all have been so fortunate.

He has opened fire on litterbugs. In fairness, they were actually guilty of littering.

Alright, then I can see where his actions are pretty damn bad. If his executions were solely reserved for serious crime committers, I personally wouldn't see an issue with it, but if he's gone after litterbugs, and even other Superheroes, then yeah, he's got issues ^^

[Frozen_Feet]

Retribution is just only when it's proportionate. Disproportionate retribution leads to escalation and a circle of revenge, increasing the amount of suffering in the world each step. This is why characters like the Punisher or Rorscach are at best anti-heroes; the reasons why they do what they do maybe valid, but what they do isn't.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=theNater;18726298
He has opened fire on litterbugs. In fairness, they were actually guilty of littering.[/QUOTE]

Wsn't that explained by the fact he was drugged by his enemies at the time ?

[Traab]

Wasnt the spiderman thing due to bad intel on his part? With the bugle and who knows what else constantly accusing him of crimes, it was fairly reasonable to think he was a bad guy. And before you point out his heroics, keep in mind even the king pin wipes out various criminal elements, if only to maintain his control over the city. Not too mention numerous philanthropist type charities and such to keep his public image up. Its not a stretch to see spiderman as a bad guy protecting his turf. "Noone is allowed to rob these banks but ME!"

On an unrelated note, I still cant believe how long it took me to notice how freaking STRANGE it is that spiderman is in the superhero capitol of the world, and yet he almost never sees a fellow hero around, or gets any help. This dude is constantly punching above his weight class, not even counting events like the sinister six popping up on a bi monthly basis. How many other heroes or teams find themselves facing half to three quarters of their entire rogues gallery at once on such a regular basis? I know why from the meta direction it happens that way, but it just seems so out of place that he is virtually on his own despite numerous other solo heroes and small to large teams of heroes all situated in new york as well.

[Kitten Champion]

On an unrelated note, I still cant believe how long it took me to notice how freaking STRANGE it is that spiderman is in the superhero capitol of the world, and yet he almost never sees a fellow hero around, or gets any help. This dude is constantly punching above his weight class, not even counting events like the sinister six popping up on a bi monthly basis. How many other heroes or teams find themselves facing half to three quarters of their entire rogues gallery at once on such a regular basis? I know why from the meta direction it happens that way, but it just seems so out of place that he is virtually on his own despite numerous other solo heroes and small to large teams of heroes all situated in new york as well.

He's Marvel's Batman, essentially. One of very few characters capable of routinely selling a solo title profitably, and with a deep enough fictional world to his own that he doesn't really need the rest of the Marvel Universe to function.

That said, he has been an Avenger, and team-ups are a pretty frequent thing with him as well. In fact they made a whole title around just Spider-Man related team-ups. So, if you want those stories, they're there, but they tend to fall to the way-side for his main book.

[theNater]

Wasnt the spiderman thing due to bad intel on his part?

Yes, which is exactly why operating like the Punisher is a bad thing. However careful one is, one will get bad intel at some point. In the long run, killing criminals also means mistakenly killing innocents.

[Metahuman1]

Course the same thing can be said of law enforcement. Hell, frame ups are a long standing plot line for story's that involve law enforcement for that reason.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Except the point of law officers isn't to kill lawbreakers.

The point of the Punisher is simple. He's action-genocide-man. You know, like Liam Neeson in Taken. Or The Fixer in Holy Terror.

Placed in a real universe, instead of a fictional black and white fantasy universe, makes him a bad guy. He can't really be anything but that in a more contemplative story.

[theNater]

Course the same thing can be said of law enforcement. Hell, frame ups are a long standing plot line for story's that involve law enforcement for that reason.

Indeed, most superheroes with any kind of history have gone after someone innocent at one point or another. But it's worth noting that when Spider-Man webs someone innocent to a wall, they are inconvenienced for a couple of hours, not dead.

[Traab]

Indeed, most superheroes with any kind of history have gone after someone innocent at one point or another. But it's worth noting that when Spider-Man webs someone innocent to a wall, they are inconvenienced for a couple of hours, not dead.

Meh, this is marvel, most dead people are inconvenienced for a couple hours tops.

[theNater]

Meh, this is marvel, most dead people are inconvenienced for a couple hours tops.

I'll grant that death is usually a temporary condition, but as far as I'm aware a couple of months is closer to average, and there's often side effects to coming back that keep the inconvenience running even after the death is over. See: Winter Soldier.

[Anteros]

Wasnt the spiderman thing due to bad intel on his part? With the bugle and who knows what else constantly accusing him of crimes, it was fairly reasonable to think he was a bad guy. And before you point out his heroics, keep in mind even the king pin wipes out various criminal elements, if only to maintain his control over the city. Not too mention numerous philanthropist type charities and such to keep his public image up. Its not a stretch to see spiderman as a bad guy protecting his turf. "Noone is allowed to rob these banks but ME!"

On an unrelated note, I still cant believe how long it took me to notice how freaking STRANGE it is that spiderman is in the superhero capitol of the world, and yet he almost never sees a fellow hero around, or gets any help. This dude is constantly punching above his weight class, not even counting events like the sinister six popping up on a bi monthly basis. How many other heroes or teams find themselves facing half to three quarters of their entire rogues gallery at once on such a regular basis? I know why from the meta direction it happens that way, but it just seems so out of place that he is virtually on his own despite numerous other solo heroes and small to large teams of heroes all situated in new york as well.

It was definitely bad intel (at least in the story I own.) However, you should probably at least do some research on your targets before you take it upon yourself to murder people for their "crimes".

Also, Spider Man runs into other heroes all the time. There are plenty of stories where he even calls other heroes and asks for help if he knows his current villain outclasses him.

[Avilan the Grey]

It was definitely bad intel (at least in the story I own.) However, you should probably at least do some research on your targets before you take it upon yourself to murder people for their "crimes".

Also, Spider Man runs into other heroes all the time. There are plenty of stories where he even calls other heroes and asks for help if he knows his current villain outclasses him.

Also, he came very close to killing Daredevil, just because he was protecting small time crooks from him.

[Metahuman1]

Repeatedly.



And no, death is not a temporary condition for everyone. You can try to sell me on that when you can show me modern, in canon, panels of bystanders killed by super villains coming back to life in mass.

Hell, try to tell me that when you can show me a main universe Lian Harper alive and well and not a new born infant again.

[Lizard Lord]

I would say all the members of Marvel's Illuminati. Using your influence to control the world from the shadows is what villains do (or at least try to). Specifically Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Black Bolt, Namor, Mr. Fantastic, Beast, and Hulk (I am including after he becomes the intelligent Doc Green).

I initially agreed with the Registration Act, but was extremely bothered by the lengths they went to enforce it. Most of those lengths were the fault of Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Hank Pym, and Maria Hill. However, I think that I was making an invalid assumption and possibly making a subconscious decision to misinterpret the S.R.A.'s goal. Namely, for a while in the story, I had mentally translated the name to the Super Hero Registration Act when it is in fact Superhuman. Though I was not the only one who was mistaken as She-Hulk, someone that was Pro-Registration, fought for the freedoms of those that had powers but did not use them to fight crime. I started to wake up with Luke Cage's speech about how the S.R.A. was persecuting those that were different. Also when Punisher only got involved because Iron Man was recruiting villains to his side in exchange for a pardon. Meaning that one of, if not the, most dangerous and violent rogue vigilantes in the Marvel Earth was being left alone merely because he didn't have powers. Iron Man and the other leaders of the Registration Act might as well be racists, especially with Inhumans and Mutants being entire races with super powers. If they remake the registration act to actually be anti-vigilante rather than anti-supers I would be all for it.

Then Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Namor, Black Bolt, and Dr. Strange sent Hulk, a friend and teamate off planet rather than try to use their near infinite resources, unmatched intelligence (in the case of I.M. and Mr. F) and Strange's magic powers to try and cure the Hulk. (Sure there are story reasons why the Hulk will never be permanently cured, but that doesn't really excuse the characters. They aren't Deadpool.) Then when the Hulk comes back he isn't looking to conquer the world or destroy New York. He only wants the Illuminati. Instead of turning themselves in to face what they did (even if they didn't do what Hulk was really mad about) they not only risk countless civilians, heroes, and property damage to fight the Hulk. They also go to extreme lengths to fight him such as Iron Man trying to convince the insane (and hesitant because he knows he is insane) Sentry and Dr. Strange allowing a demon to possess himself. This is not what Heroes do. Heroes make the sacrifices so that others don't have to be sacrificed. They do not risk everything just to save their own lives. (Anti-heroes, anti-villains, and straight up villains may do what they did in World War Hulk, but not heroes.)

Then there is the whole incursion thing and time runs out thing where they all handled it badly. Namor may have been the only one to actually manage to pull the trigger (not to mention that he freed Thanos and led the Cabal to destroy more worlds) they all intended to commit genocide. With time runs out, rather than just telling Steve Rogers right awat that they would answer for what they did once they take care of the Cabal and solve the incursions problem, they continuously run away wasting not only a bunch of their own time and resources but Shield's as well (who is only trying to do what Super Heroes do and make sure genocidal criminals and their accomplices find justice for what they have done). Mocking the former Captain America while they do so no less.

I am honestly not sure if I should give Black Panther a pass since he had put aside his vengeance, accepted exile from his people, and then decided against pushing the button. On the other hand he was still partially responsible for getting that far with it and, unlike the others (Namor included), refused to accept punishment for it. Granted it may be because he feels like he was punished enough, but I don't think that should be his call.


Black Bolt gets extra villain points for intentionally causing the whole Inhumanity thing, forcing countless people to transform against their will.

Spoiler: very recent comic story

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I am pissed that it seems like he is going to be king again.

I want to also give Beast villain points for pulling the original X-men out of their own time, but I am honestly not familiar enough with that story to pass judgement on it.

Though I honestly get the feeling that that's the point. That they became bad people somewhere along the way in the course of their hero careers. (Beast was yelled at by his past self and Wong flat out told Strange that he isn't a good person anymore.) I feel like I would have picked up Superior Iron Man if it were a natural progression instead of a magic spell that caused him to be an anti-hero/villain protagonist.

[Lurkmoar]

And no, death is not a temporary condition for everyone. You can try to sell me on that when you can show me modern, in canon, panels of bystanders killed by super villains coming back to life in mass.

Hell, try to tell me that when you can show me a main universe Lian Harper alive and well and not a new born infant again.

Do cosmic retcons count? Like when Nebula snatched the Infinity Gauntlet from Thanos who at that point wiped out half of all life in the universe? Because that did happen, and as far as I can tell, still canon. I feel that's an exception though.

Every time I start to get over Lian, a new wound opens up.

[Killer Angel]

I first thought of The Punisher too on this question, but revenge/vengeance is justified, isn't it? :)

That's entirely a point of view thing. Plenty of people believe revenge is NEVER justified.

IMO, to be fully justified, vengeance must fulfill justice, and it also must be the only possible solution. (case in point: Inigo Montoya)

[HandofShadows]

Then when the Hulk comes back he isn't looking to conquer the world or destroy New York. He only wants the Illuminati. Instead of turning themselves in to face what they did (even if they didn't do what Hulk was really mad about) they not only risk countless civilians, heroes, and property damage to fight the Hulk. They also go to extreme lengths to fight him such as Iron Man trying to convince the insane (and hesitant because he knows he is insane) Sentry and Dr. Strange allowing a demon to possess himself.

Actually the Hulk DID say he intended to destroy New York. How is destroying the city leaving MILLION homeless justice? If the Hulk had really only wanted justice, then he would have only gone after the Illuminati. But no, he was looking for revenge against them for a crime they did NOT commit. He just dressed it up as justice.

[Traab]

I was actually kidding about the death thing, sorry, shoulda put a smiley there to show it. Was making a joke about the revolving death door of comic land. Just for arguments sake though, once again, most bad guys will from time to time team up with the heroes. Usually to face a bigger threat or as a plot to gain advantage later. And im pretty sure if castle went to the avengers or the fantastic four or whoever, he would quickly find himself incarcerated, what with him being a killer and all. So really, aside from taking a few months to spy on spiderman (which wouldnt be easy and could take forever to setup a way to follow him without getting caught) all he has to rely on is word of mouth. Which is mixed at best.

[theNater]

Just for arguments sake though, once again, most bad guys will from time to time team up with the heroes. Usually to face a bigger threat or as a plot to gain advantage later. And im pretty sure if castle went to the avengers or the fantastic four or whoever, he would quickly find himself incarcerated, what with him being a killer and all. So really, aside from taking a few months to spy on spiderman (which wouldnt be easy and could take forever to setup a way to follow him without getting caught) all he has to rely on is word of mouth. Which is mixed at best.

This isn't a mitigating factor, because Punisher knows word of mouth is unreliable, but still tries to kill people based on it. That's worse, not better.

[Reverent-One]

Then Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Namor, Black Bolt, and Dr. Strange sent Hulk, a friend and teamate off planet rather than try to use their near infinite resources, unmatched intelligence (in the case of I.M. and Mr. F) and Strange's magic powers to try and cure the Hulk. (Sure there are story reasons why the Hulk will never be permanently cured, but that doesn't really excuse the characters. They aren't Deadpool.) Then when the Hulk comes back he isn't looking to conquer the world or destroy New York. He only wants the Illuminati. Instead of turning themselves in to face what they did (even if they didn't do what Hulk was really mad about) they not only risk countless civilians, heroes, and property damage to fight the Hulk. They also go to extreme lengths to fight him such as Iron Man trying to convince the insane (and hesitant because he knows he is insane) Sentry and Dr. Strange allowing a demon to possess himself. This is not what Heroes do. Heroes make the sacrifices so that others don't have to be sacrificed. They do not risk everything just to save their own lives. (Anti-heroes, anti-villains, and straight up villains may do what they did in World War Hulk, but not heroes.)

In addition to what HandofShadows pointed out, they DID try to cure Bruce. Many times. They go over in the comic how they've tried everything they can to fix him, but he's still a time bomb waiting to go off and Banner still would commit suicide if he was able to. Sending the Hulk out to a calm planet to live out his days in peace (where Bruce doesn't have to worry about hurting innocents anymore) doesn't mean that the "heroic" thing to do would be to turn themselves over to the Hulk when he comes back angry for something else entirely, even if he wasn't going to destory all of New York too (though, as mentioned, he totally was). Notice that once he learned the truth about Sakaar, even the Hulk wasn't angry at them anymore.

EDIT: Also, there was even a "What if?" comic, which included the ""What If Hulk landed where the Illuminati intended" possibility, and the Hulk ended up being totally happy.

[Metahuman1]

Except for the fact that the Illuminati screwed up on this little self appointed endeavor, which means there just as responsible as if they'd intended to send him there.

And then they blew it again by killing his wife after he'd FIXED there little screw up in order to try to impose there no longer necessary original idea on him because they've all got god complexes by now.




So, no, coming back and demanding there heads made perfect sense.




Edit: Ok, that was one. Can I now get all of Carnage's victims back? All of Whip Lash and Crimson Dynamo's? All of Abominations? All of Red Skulls? All of Kingpin's? Can I get Gwen Stacy back? Peggy Carter? Howard Stark?

Yeah, that was a one time thing.