As a player would you be frustrated about this.

[kyoryu]

You need to present it in the right light, when it comes out.

Nobody gets upset if the DM says, "It's daytime now," and then three episodes later they are attacked in the dark. Everybody knows that that will change.

When you present dragons appearing, you need to make clear, perhaps with some NPC comments, that they are now coming into existence, and that they didn't exist before.

The other thing is that if they didn't exist, and now they do, you probably want some kind of big "oooooo" factor.

You just don't get this if you have the "big reveal" in the first session.

[VincentTakeda]

The only thing I've heard like that was a psychology study with really dubious methodology and small sample size. I would not take it as anything substantially true, nor would I generalize that people hate surprises, which is not a conclusion you can extrapolate from "people enjoyed the movie more when it was spoiled for them". (Liking something less is not the same as hating it.)

It might have actually come from a lesson to game designers by the creator of myst. I think his point was that as game players, the largess of the folks interested in gaming have become conditioned to be told exactly what to do, then do it, thus taking away the catharsis of discovery. Hence why we have tons of games about clicking cows and very few games that don't have a tutorial level. Conversely we have games like portal, that while spending a lot of time being funny, also gave the player an opportunity to think and problem solve, creating a sense of victory and accomplishment that is on an entirely different level than 'flashy sparkles surround your character... LEVEL UP!'

My points stands. There are players that like being surprised and there are players who don't. The only way to know is by seeing how your particular players react to the big changes you make over the course of gaming with them. Hopefully those lessons are absorbed and processed.

[prufock]

"A plot twist in the first session? *Yawn* I'm sooooo surprised."

This would be my reaction. Instead, give your players the truth. "In this world, dragons have not been seen since recorded history, though there are tales of them in ancient times. Now rumours are stirring from X Country that a dragon has been spotted."

What is wrong with this? You will not ruin the surprise because there is no surprise. And if they're starting cold, but learning in session 1 that dragons are back, there hasn't been enough plot established to ruin it.

[Jay R]

If you are careful to speak teh exact truith, and you have even one player who listens carefully and can think, you will give it away instantly.

DM: There have been no dragons in the world for the last 10,000 years, and ...
Player: Hey guys, this campaign is about the return of the dragons.

After all, why else would you have mentioned it? I expected dragons to return as soon as Arya saw the skulls of dead dragons.

[mr_odd]

"A plot twist in the first session? *Yawn* I'm sooooo surprised."

This would be my reaction. Instead, give your players the truth. "In this world, dragons have not been seen since recorded history, though there are tales of them in ancient times. Now rumours are stirring from X Country that a dragon has been spotted."

What is wrong with this? You will not ruin the surprise because there is no surprise. And if they're starting cold, but learning in session 1 that dragons are back, there hasn't been enough plot established to ruin it.

This is what I would do. My first campaign ever, the DM gave us general basics of the plot (magic is dead, post-apocalyptic) and gave us race/class restrictions. It worked just fine.

[kyoryu]

"A plot twist in the first session? *Yawn* I'm sooooo surprised."

This would be my reaction. Instead, give your players the truth. "In this world, dragons have not been seen since recorded history, though there are tales of them in ancient times. Now rumours are stirring from X Country that a dragon has been spotted."

Right. Setting up for a fake twist that everybody sees coming is pointless.

The only way to have it be a surprise is to run a while without dragons, and then WHOA DRAGONS. If you're smart, you don't even really talk about dragons much during the run-up. The impression should be "dragons aren't a thing," not "the lack of dragons IS A THING".

The *trick* to this approach is making the run-up interesting, which means that those factions/etc. will have to be just as much of the plotline as the simple fact that dragons are coming back. If that doesn't work with what's planned, or you don't wanna waste the time, "Hey, guys, I"m going to run a campaign about the return of dragons. At the start of it, nobody has seen dragons in 10,000 years, but the game will be about their return".

[Templarkommando]

You might entitle everyone to a knowledge check before the game starts. A DC 25 or DC 20 might reveal to the character that Dragons may have once existed, but it's sort of a gray area and no one is sure.

If your characters do get upset, you need to explain that as far as anyone knows, dragons don't exist. Even the highest level of campaign academia are clueless about dragons, so it makes way too much sense for your characters to not know.

[Beta Centauri]

I remember reading an article somewhere where the basic point was that people as a whole both enjoyed more and spent more by a full order of magnitude the movies where the entire plot was spoiled by the trailer.

Here's an article I've read on the topic:

http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoiler...poil-anything/

It's not a strong effect, but it is an effect.

Moral of the story... People hate surprises.

It would not surprise me in the least if the players would find that element of the game more enjoyable knowing about it in advance... The chink in the armor is that you're hiding it from them to experience the personal glee of the reveal. My personal experience with the largess of players matches the research about movies... They enjoy it more and are more invested in it knowing about it in advance. I'm not particularly happy about this truth, but the older and more experienced my players are, the less they seem to like surprises. ymmv of course.

I've noticed this throughout my gaming career: the surprise is never as much fun as anyone expects, and the measures required to keep the surprise are often a negative impact on the fun. This means that the reveal has to be even MORE exciting and... it's probably not going to be.

Players tend to be smart: they're going to know something is up anyway, and as long as the GM's trying to hide it from them they're going to pry at it, or just accidentally do something that the GM has to block to keep the secret. If they're in on it, they're more likely to help the GM keep the secret from the characters, and they'll know better than the GM how to do that.

[Solaris]

The *trick* to this approach is making the run-up interesting, which means that those factions/etc. will have to be just as much of the plotline as the simple fact that dragons are coming back. If that doesn't work with what's planned, or you don't wanna waste the time, "Hey, guys, I"m going to run a campaign about the return of dragons. At the start of it, nobody has seen dragons in 10,000 years, but the game will be about their return".

I have to agree with this. Nobody would be surprised by the return of dragons in a game named Dungeons & Dragons. Thus, trying to force it is at best a fool's errand and more likely will outright detract from the players' enjoyment of the game.

Why not work with it instead of against it?

[Knaight]

I have to agree with this. Nobody would be surprised by the return of dragons in a game named Dungeons & Dragons. Thus, trying to force it is at best a fool's errand and more likely will outright detract from the players' enjoyment of the game.

Nobody is that surprised in general; the system only exacerbates the issue. D&D isn't a good system for either surprise dungeons or surprise dragons.

[Flickerdart]

Nobody is that surprised in general; the system only exacerbates the issue. D&D isn't a good system for either surprise dungeons or surprise dragons.

What about surprise dungeons inside of dragons? Bam, betcha didn't see that coming.

Dragons inside of dungeons, though, are both less surprising and less effective.

[LooseCannoneer]

What about surprise dungeons inside of dragons? Bam, betcha didn't see that coming.

Dragons inside of dungeons, though, are both less surprising and less effective.

1) Please let me sig this.

2) What if the world is actually one massive dragon that the BBEG has awoken, and the only way to put it back to sleep is for the party to enter it. Then, inside, the players discover that the antibodies of the massive dragon are basically dragons themselves.

[Sliver]

And to defeat those dragons they need to go even deeper.

[VincentTakeda]

Dragception!

[Flickerdart]

1) Please let me sig this.

Go ahead.

And to defeat those dragons they need to go even deeper.

The dungeon inside the dragon contains another smaller dragon with an even smaller dungeon inside? I love it.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

To me it's all about how exactly you lie to me.
If you just straight up tell me that there are no dragons in this world and then introduce dragons to the game, I'm gonna call bull****. But if you tell me something along the lines of "Barely anybody in this world has even heard of dragons and those that have think they're just a myth, nobody's ever actually seen one." and then reveal that they're real after all, I won't be surprised, but at least I wouldn't think that you cheated.

[Bob of Mage]

In the case of no dragons I would just say nothing at first. I would look to see if any of the PCs did use anything that crossed a line. If a saw something I would only then tell that PC there are no dragons and thus a change is needed (for example how can a ranger be a dragon hunter if there are no dragons?). That way nothing would be revaled before hand unless it had to be.

You can also list it in the general guidelines you give out at the start.

Example:

- No Psions
- Non-Core Classes need to be cleared with the DM
- No monster classes
- Must speak common
- Free normal mount
- May be part of Faction x, y, or z, but not a, b, or c
- No Dragons
- "Evil" races are okay

Now with a simple list like that it wouldn't be too hard to build something useable, and then you just need a bit of backround info.

The world is a triangle, it has most of the common races, but no dragons or mindflayers. The major nations are a, b, c, x, y, and z. A, b, and c are fighting x, y, z. You start in x.

Now wih this the PCs don't get the hint that dragons are coming back unless they ask for more info on why there are no dragons. Then you would say that they are just fairy tales. People like the idea of them but never saw a real one (so people know that dragons like fearsome on flag or as the shape of golems but they think that's all they ever were). At least no one epic enough not to just plane shift to a world with them. There are just no mindflayer because they creep the DM out too much to run.

At the big reval you can have them make checks and inform them that they are beings of myth come to life. Some people might even think they are fake (would it be more shocking to have just another wizard doing something flashy or that some myth was real).

[endur]

My players. Please stay out!

Spoiler

Show

Basically the whole plot of my campaign revolves around dragons (who haven't been seen for over 10000 years) returning to the world. But I can't tell my players that they do exist or it will ruin the plot and surprise. So I've told them that dragons don't exist in my setting and they can't play any dragon related stuff. However it will be revealed that dragons do exist in the first or second session. So I'm worried that they will be angry about me lying.

As a player would you be frustrated about this?

So I would determine whether
A) There are myths about dragons (bards tell stories) but nobody has ever seen one;
B) There are not even myths any more.

Look at DragonLance, in the beginning of the War of the Lance, nobody had any recollection of good dragons or that Paladine was a Platinum Dragon. Dragons were a myth.

[Ashtagon]

I wouldn't tell them dragons don't exist ooc like that Maybe have some random NPC remark on the lack of dragons during the first gaming session, but that's it on that point. Not if the big reveal is coming so soon.

However, I would tell them during chargen "no dragon-related stuff", and if they ask, explain only that it's a plot point.

[Haruki-kun]

I would understand story purposes... I've done so as a DM before, too. It's not quite the same, but I forbade my players from getting a certain wondrous item because a "special" form of that same Wondrous Item would become a very big important plot point later on. As long as you had a reason for it.

[Broken Twin]

Personally, if you really want to do the surprise dragon thing...

1. As everyone else has said, don't reveal it in the first session. The first couple of sessions should be about setting up the world and player dynamics. Nothing is a surprise at this point, because nothing has been firmly established.

2. Don't call them dragons. Seriously, if these things have been gone for 10,000 years, even elves aren't going to recognize them when they see them. Describe them in bits and pieces, and let the players piece together what they are. This tends to make the reveal a bigger payoff, because the players get the feeling that they've uncovered/discovered something.

"A massive beast has been spotted attacking the countryside."
"Some say its scales are harder than steel."
"It appeared out of nowhere!"

Throw in some misinformation as well if you really want to have fun with it. Terrified third-hand accounts aren't generally the most accurate anyway.

[kaoskonfety]

I'm often quietly surprised how few DM's are willing to just say to the players "Dragon Born, Tieflings and half-anythings are not character options (they are too rare and/or impossible and/or murdered on sight by everyone and/or pick your poison) - oh also clerics don't exist, there are faithful but prayers go largely unanswered." You don't NEED to explain these things past discussing the impact of their absence on the default D&D assumptions.

With a custom setting literally anything can be changed from specific spell availability to the nature of souls to the presence of the Wizard class.

1-2 sessions for your reveal feels too fast? Drop hints and quests over several sessions where the obvious answer (or not so obvious - there are alot of fire breathing clawed bad guys, really) is "a dragon did it". Lead in slowly, maybe drop a few red herrings (a wizard and his trained owlbears burned the town and clawed up and mauled the people (they were scared off by the dragon who made off with the livestock of which there is no trace, the wizard when found is ranting about the black death on wings coming and has all manner of fire protections up....)

If there have been no dragons for 10,000 years - for most people there 'never' were dragons, they are misty legendary creatures to frighten children with. Sage would debate what creature was actually being shown on an ancient manuscript (well they DREW a Dragon, but perhaps a hydra, or a dire snake? a shape shifted wizard? the great warlord Zul who was known as "the Dragon") and only a few outliers would actually believe in the things aside from superstitions and the like. In several of my settings they hold this near-dream creature state even when present and active - not enough people SURVIVE seeing one.
There are a few dozens to hundreds of them in the places furthest from man, but a dragon of any significant age coming to inhabited lands is an apocalypse. I run Smaug-class bads when I showcase dragons, an environmental hazard, something you flee if you are under 12th level (and even then, yikes) - to actually find younger dragons who are vulnerable to conventional man made weapons you are heading into the deep wilds.

[Cealocanth]

I think I would probably be a bit frustrated upon hearing this information, but not enough to cause any real discomfort. I much prefer having information withheld instead of being directly lied to. Besides, in the spirit of Chekhov, it would have more effect to put the gun on the mantlepiece and say "no one has seen signs of dragons for thousands of years, and most people doubt that the beasts exist" than "dragons don't exist...I lied, they actually do."

[DigoDragon]

Dragception!

I often wonder why NPC wizards favor robes over anything else.


As a playing I might be slightly annoyed if told dragons don't exist and then suddenly they exist again. I'd get over it, but I wonder if maybe... would it be still viable if you said 'Dragons are extinct' instead? The idea then is that if they came back, there's some entity or force bringing dragons back, and that can be the hook of an adventure. Who is bringing dragons back from extinction? Did any lore on how to fight dragons survive ancient times and if so where can we get a hold of that so we can fight these mythical beasts?

Just ideas to ponder.

[Zejety]

Go ahead.

The dungeon inside the dragon contains another smaller dragon with an even smaller dungeon inside? I love it.

Boy, I hope the party has enough arcane spell slots for all those Reduce Persons. ;-)

[noob]

They can also use rod of wonders to shrink themselves(also this item have no set limit it is never said it could not reduce you multiple times and also it is never said it reduce your stats).

[Vercingex]

The biggest issue would be to make dragons conspicuous by their absence. They are the sort of things that tend to show up in small numbers towards the middle and end of a campaign, not stalking low-level parties. Maybe there is no draconic imagery. Maybe people have forgotten all details about dragons. Certainly call the draconic language something else- Ancient is a classic choice.

Or, and I like this idea better, maybe people do remember dragons, but in a fuzzy, legendary sort of way. Maybe stories tell of the great scaled beasts that taught mortals language, or the terrible tyrants of fire and fury who destroyed the greatest mortal civilization when their hubris grew too great. That sort of thing.

I'm really fond of the red herring idea. In particular, I would go through the Monster Manual and look for all the reptilian monsters, particularly those with elemental attacks. My personal favorite for this situation would be the Behir, though whether you want to wait long enough for one to be a reasonable challenge to your party is the question.

Also, with those reptilian monsters, you can have ignorant people refer to them as dragons. Maybe some tavern has what the proprietor calls a dragon skull over the mantle, but what the druid clearly recognizes as a crocodile skull.

Another neat idea- if someone wants to play a dragonblooded sorcerer, let them. Sure, the dragon blood has been diluted through 10,000 years, but it runs strong in a few people. Heck. you can even let the PC claim that the blood of dragons runs through their veins. Just have no one believe them. "Oh, right, Dragons, sure, and I'm the Son of Odin". That player will be so vindicated when you drop dragons on the world, they'll love you forever.

Just make sure that when you do announce dragons, do so in a dramatic way. I am personally fond of conducting a night attack on a village- the beating of massive wings, a gout of hellfire hotter than the greatest forge, and a massive shadow passing into the night. That'll get your player's attention.

[Telonius]

I'd couch it in some other terms. Something like ...

"This setting is going to be a bit different from the standard D and D setting. There are some options (mostly dragons and draconic-related things) that are unknown in this world. So (unfortunately) that may limit your options for building a character. Building a character with draconic heritage or ancestry is not going to work, since they've been absent from the world's history. This absence has also made the world develop in some unexpected ways, so don't be surprised if some other things have changed as well - the language of magic, the status of Kobolds [note: if they exist in your setting, since their history says they were born of dragon blood], and some other things."

[Vercingex]

I'm going to be brutally honest here- if you're hoping your players will be surprised by the "Dragons Return!" twist, then you'll probably be disappointed. They probably watch the same shows you do, or play Magic: The Gathering. The trick is, you have to sell the world without dragons, and build up to their return. Weave dragons into the culture, while stubbornly denying they ever existed.

Have some scholar snootily inform you that Draconic should really be referred to as "Ancient Elven", because there is no evidence of the existence of dragons. Have the bard in the tavern sing the song of Beogar the Dragonslayer. Have the religions in your world weave dragons into their theology. Have some noblewoman own a rare and valuable copy of The Dragon's Lover, Vol. I. Let there be a dragon cult, but have their religious ideas be wildly inaccurate, stuff about how dragons speak the Words of Creation and are the size of continents. Make their be lots of representations of dragons in art and architecture, but have them all look like dinosaurs or basilisks or something.

Your players will guess the twist, but that will not diminish their enjoyment. They will eagerly anticipate the return of dragons because they want all the NPCs in your world proven wrong in the most dramatic, earth-shattering way possible. And because your players will, in the end, be proven right. Who doesn't like feeling smarter than the entire world?

As for fears of causing frustration among the players- they're probably playing your game to participate in a story. If they're good players, they'll suspend their disbelief and get into it. They WANT to enjoy your story. And if the party Ranger is really frustrated about his Favored Enemy choices- let him hunt a young dragon and change them.

[Mr Beer]

As said above, there is no way a setting introduced as 'like D&D but no dragons, none!' and then being told 'Bam! Dragons MFers!' is ever going to be a surprise. Return of the Dragons has been done, done, done plus if you mention the plot point, the players will work out the plot point.

Two ways to handle it are a) co-opt the players and b) don't mention dragons or lack thereof at all and allow the lack of dragon-ness to come out organically in the first few sessions.