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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Ok why is this thing supposedly so great? Honestly its abilities are lackluster and only really seems to be a threat to melee characters. However my players have mentioned wanting to fight it several times and i estimate their strengths to be high tier 2 or low tier 3. Their builds are usually wild and all over the place but hold up pretty well in game. Would a tarrasque be a good encounter right before the final BBEG?

    Second note, how powerful is a kaiju (DM 289) tarrasque?

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    They're tough if you don't metagame and optimize like it's a freaking video game. :P

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    So they may be biting off more then they can chew lol. The tarrasque seems really bland to me, i like a few of its abilities but it doesn't have many options. Maybe tweek its feat list when i make it to give it the ability to throw rocks or something.

    No one ever made a Kaiju Tarrasaque???
    EDIT: I missed where a Kaiju could only be tiny or huge, nvm
    Last edited by j_spencer93; 2015-01-28 at 03:10 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Big T is scary if you rely on hp damage. If you have moved past that, not so much. Flight makes it irrelevant.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    The flight part is what i noticed. It can not even hit you if you fly above it...seems a little boring for such a terrible creature.
    Maybe removing the 6 toughness feats and replacing them with better ones would make it more interesting.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    As others have mentioned, certain strategies (e.g. direct HP damage) are worse than useless, and others (e.g. flight) are virtually automatic successes. In that sense, it's less about Tier, or even optimization, and more about skill and toolbox availability. Or, put differently, there have been builds that can allow almost anybody to beat the Tarrasque, under the right circumstances. If you're a smart Bard, you may be able to pull it off. If you're a stupid Druid, you have no chance.

    So instead of asking about their builds, look at the skill of the players themselves. Are they clever? Do they use their resources well? Are they bad enough dudes to save the President?
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Maybe removing the 6 toughness feats and replacing them with better ones would make it more interesting.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by j_spencer93 View Post
    However my players have mentioned wanting to fight it several times and i estimate their strengths to be high tier 2 or low tier 3.
    Uh, did you mix up the numbers here? Because there is a pretty vast gulf between these two.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    I think that big T works best as a force of nature rather than something you fight, because of how easily it is bypassed. Big T is marching towards the great temple of something-really-holy-but-completely-unable-to-divert-it, and the monks need you to divert it somehow. Or the king wants it to stop rampaging through the countryside. Or maybe it's mad and the party has to find out why.

    Fighting it can be anti-climatic because of how it is designed. Ubercharger may oneshoot it, stat damage will destroy it, slugging it out (probably how the designers imagined it would be fought) is fun given a very specifict definition of fun. Maybe as a final test for a high level, low OP party who rely on HP damage.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    People keep talking about Martial Study/Stance for the tarrasque, but honestly, that is a preposterous idea. It has no formal combat training. It is barely sentient. It would have no feasible way of learning ANY of those stances or maneuvers. That isn't creating a good monster. It's just plain old poor DMing and roleplaying.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by FocusWolf413 View Post
    People keep talking about Martial Study/Stance for the tarrasque, but honestly, that is a preposterous idea. It has no formal combat training. It is barely sentient. It would have no feasible way of learning ANY of those stances or maneuvers. That isn't creating a good monster. It's just plain old poor DMing and roleplaying.
    Doesn't it have Int 6?
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Doesn't it have Int 6?
    It does, and an immortal lifetime is more than enough for someone to just invent fighting.

    Honestly I think they best way to deal with it is to have a lot of giant buzzards flying around it. Manticores, wing-template hydras, etc. They eat the scraps it leaves behind when it kills, and if you go airborne they attack you.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by FocusWolf413 View Post
    People keep talking about Martial Study/Stance for the tarrasque, but honestly, that is a preposterous idea. It has no formal combat training. It is barely sentient. It would have no feasible way of learning ANY of those stances or maneuvers. That isn't creating a good monster. It's just plain old poor DMing and roleplaying.
    I too object to the unspecified way the imaginary, timeless, supposedly unkillable monster in the imaginary world of magic and elves and dragons aquired its martial training. Clearly that doesn't make SENSE!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    This? This isn't a slice of brilliance. This is the whole freaking pie.

    When you play the game of pwns, you're either w1n or n00b. There is no middle ground.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    I too object to the unspecified way the imaginary, timeless, supposedly unkillable monster in the imaginary world of magic and elves and dragons aquired its martial training. Clearly that doesn't make SENSE!
    Here's the thing though - you can make this make sense without retreating into audacity or "it's magic!" to explain it either. Just because Big T has an ability that functions exactly like some martial technique, does not mean it has to have the same name or fluff.

    So for instance if you give Big T Iron Heart Surge, it does not have to be that it learned "Iron Heart Surge" by eating a passing hobgoblin warblade one day or getting a martial script stuck in its teeth, or simply "being magic." Rather, it's so tough that it learned how to shake off certain debilitating effects even after they took hold - on Big T, you could call this technique "Primal Tenacity" or "Bestial Hardiness" instead. And instead of "Adaptive Style" to cycle any maneuvers it gets, it gets the identical abilities "Second Wind" or "Primal Recovery." And I would definitely give it a stance like Hearing The Air, which would simply be "Primal Senses" or something.

    There are limits though. It is not subtle - at all - so I personally wouldn't give it anything from Shadow Hand. Similarly, it is amoral, so I wouldn't give it anything from Devoted Spirit.

    As for Incarnum, it's an immortal beast of legend with 35 Con. I see no reason it couldn't tap into soul power on an instinctive level and shape a few rudimentary soulmelds. (After all, Totemists certainly have no problems tapping into it.) Have its SR or reflective carapace apply to attempts to suppress those constructs and you're golden.

    Note: these may be actual feats somewhere else, I didn't bother to check.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    lol no martial trained tarrasque. i understand the difference between high tier 2 and low tier 3. also i understand that one player of mine is really really good with his resources, him alone pulling the party through numerous encounters were my other 2 simply complain about being unable to be effect. I do not treat that one player any better he simply makes builds that are useful....for example, a red wizard of thay, while another used a rogue that traded all his sneak attack dice for those feats that debilitate targets. wonder why he felt useless.
    More recently he is a maztecian warrior and is already falling behind the party but seems to enjoy his build. The third player usual makes a good build but as soon as another player messes with him his play style falls apart.
    So i have one really good player. One that thinks his builds are original (in truth useless). And another that needs to focus on what he can do a little better.
    From this post i am thinking maybe they should't fight the tarrasque until they get a little better.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Just throw some ranks into jump and giggle like an idiot when they fly only 60 feet above him and he volleyball spikes them into the dirt.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Its high amount of HD make it an excellent candidate for Incarnum feats, particularly the soulmelds that let it fly and shoot acid.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    Just throw some ranks into jump and giggle like an idiot when they fly only 60 feet above him and he volleyball spikes them into the dirt.
    More likely he will just trigger their Contingent Dimension Door by getting too close, or any immediate-action protections they have.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    that would not happen psyren. my players do not optimize that much. lol that image of the tarrasque volleyball spiking the wizard into the earth is priceless. pretty sure that wizard just died too.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    There are limits though. It is not subtle - at all - so I personally wouldn't give it anything from Shadow Hand. Similarly, it is amoral, so I wouldn't give it anything from Devoted Spirit.

    As for Incarnum, it's an immortal beast of legend with 35 Con. I see no reason it couldn't tap into soul power on an instinctive level and shape a few rudimentary soulmelds. (After all, Totemists certainly have no problems tapping into it.) Have its SR or reflective carapace apply to attempts to suppress those constructs and you're golden.

    Note: these may be actual feats somewhere else, I didn't bother to check.
    Why not? NinjaT is hilarious and makes your players go WTF.

    One of the most fun, memorable, and interesting baddies I ever faced as a player was a Wizard ImprovedTM Tarrasque. Its Intelligence was boosted by 11 points (to 17) and it was given one maneuver per HD along with refreshing one expended maneuver per round as a free action.

    Intelligent, cunning, Big T using Balance on the Sky, Shadow Blink, One with Shadow, and Cloak of Deception (along with all of the other maneuvers) was so very nasty to fight.

    Especially when it had all of those choice feats like Permanent Emanation: Selective Anti-magic field.

    Big T that can run on air, walk up walls, turn invisible, teleport as a swift action, and suddenly turn incorporeal is just so very nasty.

    Mister Wizard mass producing those damn things was even more of a pain to deal with. And the ones he gave Divine Ranks to were a royal pain (Big T with Divine Earth Mastery and the intelligence to use that ability to full effect is really no fun at all to fight, especially not underground).
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    ya. that would leave my players light years behind in terms of playability honestly. they struggle against encounters 2-5 cr's above them.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    It's a puzzle monster. It soaks up a hideous amount of abuse and can't be kept down without a lot of preparation.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    I might throw it in, idk. The miracle thing worries me since i removes all fullcasters from the game, i think that actually makes it impossible.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by j_spencer93 View Post
    I might throw it in, idk. The miracle thing worries me since i removes all fullcasters from the game, i think that actually makes it impossible.
    What are your high tier 2 players playing if you removed all full casters from the game? Or are you not including psionics in casting?

    *edit* As for your original question, if you're not willing to re-feat or otherwise fix the big T to shore up its weaknesses (mostly its complete impotence against anything that flies or is incorporeal), then no, I think it's a bad opponent for basically any party, regardless of tier. It will either stomp all over them (if they're dumb enough to go toe-to-toe with it), they will stomp all over it (if they have the tools to beat it and use them intelligently), or neither side will be able to do anything (if they have ways of avoiding it but no way to get through its defenses). The one thing that will definitely not happen is a challenging and exciting battle that the players will actually enjoy.
    Last edited by A_S; 2015-01-29 at 01:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Why not? NinjaT is hilarious and makes your players go WTF.
    Besides the fact that it makes my inner Vorthos shrivel up like a Nazi witnessing the Ark opening, Shadow Hand has always been my least favorite ToB school due to Ex teleportation, which I deeply feel should not be a thing.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by j_spencer93 View Post
    I might throw it in, idk. The miracle thing worries me since i removes all fullcasters from the game, i think that actually makes it impossible.
    As long as someone has access to Allips and flight the vanilla Tarrasque is no problem at all. It will not kill the Tarrasque but it will remain helpless until some fool casts restoration on it.
    Last edited by Andezzar; 2015-01-29 at 01:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Have it throw rocks, tremors by stomping the ground, or use bull rushes to send people into walls. Rush combined with a charge allows it to close from all but the furthest spell ranges. There are plenty of ways for it to be far more dangerous than it's straight abilities would imply. You just have to remember that it's smarter than even tool using animals (monkeys are Int 2 while the Tarrasque clocks in at Int 3). Just because it can't use complex strategies does not mean that it can't be creative.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    I too object to the unspecified way the imaginary, timeless, supposedly unkillable monster in the imaginary world of magic and elves and dragons aquired its martial training. Clearly that doesn't make SENSE!
    i laughed really hard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    I too object to the unspecified way the imaginary, timeless, supposedly unkillable monster in the imaginary world of magic and elves and dragons aquired its martial training. Clearly that doesn't make SENSE!

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrowing1432 View Post
    i laughed really hard
    Mission accomplished!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    This? This isn't a slice of brilliance. This is the whole freaking pie.

    When you play the game of pwns, you're either w1n or n00b. There is no middle ground.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Besides the fact that it makes my inner Vorthos shrivel up like a Nazi witnessing the Ark opening, Shadow Hand has always been my least favorite ToB school due to Ex teleportation, which I deeply feel should not be a thing.
    Ex teleportation is just warp travel, though.
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    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
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