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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    YossarianLives's Avatar

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Ah, but to exploit economy, you have to have access to the economy. Where are you getting your first ladder, exactly? I have an answer, but I want to hear yours first.
    If we're taking D&D 3.5 I'll punch a rat in the face and conveniently find 37 gold pieces nearby .

    I would then continue stepping on tiny weak creatures until I leveled up.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Ah, but to exploit economy, you have to have access to the economy. Where are you getting your first ladder, exactly? I have an answer, but I want to hear yours first.
    Depends on the world im getting thrust into. If it's one I know about (Faerun for example) I could probably live out the rest of my days in relative comfort just by selling the identities of the majority of the lords of waterdeep. There's a ton of other info that you could sell to make a quick profit as well. If it was a brand new unknown world? I guess it would depend on what I was able to bring a long with me.

    And patenting simple modern inventions.

    Tools - wrenches, pliers, screws/screwdrivers
    A simple spring/clamps/suspension
    Simple improvements to fire arms like the cartridge
    Buttons/zippers/Velcro
    Sandwiches
    Elevators
    Modern irrigation techniques


    Really there are just a plethora of simple things you could "invent" that would change a medievil type of fantasy world and make you a rich rich person.
    Last edited by Invader; 2015-01-31 at 01:02 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    First off i think i need to point out that most of us would have an Int of 12 or higher. I assume that most of us can do Algebra, which makes us quite well trained actually. Remember that Int represents average IQ and IQ is based off of common knowledge, if the magic world works on similar rules to ours (baring magic obviously) then we are well ahead of the curve. Or we all just have at least half a rank in a bunch of random knowledge skills. That may just be me though.

    Honestly im fairly standard stat wise, though i think my Con may be higher than the average commoner, thank you modern medicine and good food. Also i am capable of using several medieval weapons, the bow springs to the forefront of my mind. Am i good with most of these? No, though i am a capable shot and am capable of using a sword without embarrassing myself, so i have several Weapon Proficiencies. Also i know how to make gunpowder (woo!!) so that may help if i can get to some resources. (crappy grenades? yes please.)

    Would i survive? Possibly, depends where i get dropped and with what. I can hunt, so i really just need a knife and i can finagle my way for a bit. I will be REALLY cranky when i finally make it to civilization. Hopefully i could then get some help, maybe find a mage that can cast comprehend languages and tongues if they cant understand me. After that i may try to learn magic, or make a gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Depends on the world im getting thrust into. If it's one I know about (Faerun for example) I could probably live out the rest of my days in relative comfort just by selling the identities of the majority of the lords of waterdeep. There's a ton of other info that you could sell to make a quick profit as well. If it was a brand new unknown world? I guess it would depend on what I was able to bring a long with me.
    Also this. If i get dropped into KoK i can get by by simply telling people where specific relics are, as i would know where multiple named weapons are as well as the cause of several problems. Its a bit harder in KoK than in other settings as its basically a giant sandbox, so there's less "plot" things to do.
    Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2015-01-31 at 12:58 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    I would suggest being VERY careful about trying to create an industrial revolution, especially if you're anywhere near a bunch of mages. Mages are the ultimate craftsman guild; they have skills that commoners could never master, and this mystery gives them power and influence. Why would they want an industrial revolution? These things bridge the gap between uneducated pesants and craftsmen skilled in the art of telling the laws of physics to gtfo.

    Also, neither the clerics or druids are likely to look kindly on such a thing. The industrial revolution can completely wreck the environment, and promote a more secular lifestyle. Even the gods of good might have doubts about promoting something that could end up killing them. As far as survival strategies go, I would suggest one that is less likely to piss off all the T1 classes.

    After some more thinking, I believe I would try to find some druids and learn from them. Druid has the advantage that you have far less micro management than clerics (no god looking over your shoulder) and you are less dependant on equipment (spell books and a place to research) than wizards. You are also far more likely to survive the first few scary levels, and you depend less on being able to join the right order (PRC) at the right time in order to reach peak power. You're slightly less awesome than a batman wizard, but honestly, I can deal with "just" being in the top 1%.
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
    1) 99% of all initial scientific assumptions are wrong and an even higher percentage of practical applications initially fail. That's why it takes decades of work from thousands of people to understand and develop a new field. And somehow a single person understands a whole field in that brief a time? Riiight. Also, science is research and experimentation, not logic, as evidenced by apparently "illogical" and counter-intuitive modern theories and principles. And yet the OC uses lots of logic and effort to "prove" his theories on the world, not the other way around. He is ultimately never proven wrong, his theories confirmed even when the world initially "resists" them.
    2) Every single canon character in that story is out of character more often than not. And look at that, they are always proven wrong ultimately while the OC is proven right.
    3) The entire setting has either been considerably altered or *someone* didn't do their research. Magical knowledge isn't being lost for example - new magic is continually being researched and developed. The wizarding wolrd isn't a small, regressing community: it has over thirty million members worldwide and that is just the wizards. Partial transformations are not an impossibility a new merlin is needed to discover - they're both commonplace and the first thing every student accomplishes in their first transfiguration lesson. A wizard's magic doesn't "run out". Magic and advanced technology are incompatible in the Potterverse as enough magic messes with machines, especially electrical ones.



    That story fails in both the Potterverse and Science components - big time. It's more wish-fulfilment than anything else. Wouldn't you want not only to enter a world of magic - but also one who proves your every preconception and where you're the only one who understands how magic works, even better than centuries-old wizards?


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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    I would suggest being VERY careful about trying to create an industrial revolution, especially if you're anywhere near a bunch of mages. Mages are the ultimate craftsman guild; they have skills that commoners could never master, and this mystery gives them power and influence. Why would they want an industrial revolution? These things bridge the gap between uneducated pesants and craftsmen skilled in the art of telling the laws of physics to gtfo.
    Hence why I'm not looking for one that's evil and I'm not (at least initially) trying to make magic more common knowledge, just physical science.

    However, a guild that's good-aligned or at the very least motivated by enlightened self-interest can enjoy being the industrialists in the Industrial Revolution. If you'll recall your history, it worked out pretty well for the captains of industry. Not only will they enjoy the fruits of the Industrial Revolution, more people being intelligent and wealthy means they'll have better choice of recruits and a broader customer base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Also, neither the clerics or druids are likely to look kindly on such a thing. The industrial revolution can completely wreck the environment, and promote a more secular lifestyle. Even the gods of good might have doubts about promoting something that could end up killing them. As far as survival strategies go, I would suggest one that is less likely to piss off all the T1 classes.
    The environmental reason is why I want to enlist the aid of the druids, actually - to not wreck the environment. If you find a circle who isn't stupid about "Hur, Nature versus Civilization, hurr!", then you can get them to help you repair and alleviate damage done to the environment by industrial processes.

    I'm not so sure an Industrial Revolution and general scientific enlightenment would result in people abandoning gods who are demonstrably active in their lives. The real world doesn't have people running around casting cure light wounds and remove disease, after all. If anything, the good-aligned temples would support me on account of my mission being improving the wellbeing of the common man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    After some more thinking, I believe I would try to find some druids and learn from them. Druid has the advantage that you have far less micro management than clerics (no god looking over your shoulder) and you are less dependant on equipment (spell books and a place to research) than wizards. You are also far more likely to survive the first few scary levels, and you depend less on being able to join the right order (PRC) at the right time in order to reach peak power. You're slightly less awesome than a batman wizard, but honestly, I can deal with "just" being in the top 1%.
    I have only a middling Wisdom bonus (I mostly make it on perceptiveness and stubbornness, not so much enlightenment); it would be sub-optimal for me to try picking up a divine casting class. I'm less concerned about the first few levels on account of my military experience; I'd be multi-classing over into Wizard from some martial class (Fighter, most likely; I suck at stealth and am kinda average at survival, although Martial Rogue would be a pretty decent option as well given the variety of my skills).
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    I would try to search for optimum builds, then get frustrated as I realise there's no internet...

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    I have only a middling Wisdom bonus (I mostly make it on perceptiveness and stubbornness, not so much enlightenment); it would be sub-optimal for me to try picking up a divine casting class. I'm less concerned about the first few levels on account of my military experience; I'd be multi-classing over into Wizard from some martial class (Fighter, most likely; I suck at stealth and am kinda average at survival, although Martial Rogue would be a pretty decent option as well given the variety of my skills).
    If you're looking at martial classes, how about warblade? It would synergize wonderfully with your intelligence.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by kellbyb View Post
    If you're looking at martial classes, how about warblade? It would synergize wonderfully with your intelligence.
    The Great DM in the Sky banned ToB. My only hope is to jump over into this other campaign setting we're talking about.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    The Great DM in the Sky banned ToB. My only hope is to jump over into this other campaign setting we're talking about.
    I don't believe that an actual magical world would have a DM-like figure controlling it.

    Because of this, I would train in spellcraft start developing as many custom spells as I can in the search of finding weak spells that would normally never exist for the sake of game balance but would totally work in an actual, logical setting.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    The clone Rudisplorker, doppelganger of Threadnaught.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Which makes me wonder- how exactly would you 'choose' classes if you lived in a magic world? How do I pick up a fighter, or wizard, or thief class? How do I choose which Feats, Professions, Skills, and Spells I learn? What about PrCs? How did my character get those stuff as soon as she met the requirements?
    Last edited by goto124; 2015-01-31 at 11:30 AM.

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Am I the only one who would look for Wizards who could help me get back home? I have friends and family here, the climate is nice, there are no rampaging orc hordes, and I have Wi-Fi.

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    I mean, if I were to start with a level, I would probably take a level in Cleric and grab Versatile spellcaster and DMM Persist (I have flaws). I'd have a few more HP from... DIVINE PROVIDENCE... or something to help me through my first level. Then I'd cheese my way into Mystic Theurge with a Wizard level and work as a craftsmans healer.
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    I would train in...
    Reality checks:

    1) One skill rank is equivalent to learning a foreign language. Just to have a benchmark on how hard it is to train stuff.


    2) Your first level in most PC classes requires years of training.Hiring someone competent to train you requires several GP per day even for a minimum-level teacher. 5 years of training as a wizard would cost of 1.000 GP for tuition.


    3) 1.000 GP is twenty pounds of gold, or $40.000. It is also the equivalent of 20.000 ladders, or 2.000 10' poles. Just finding that many ladders or selling that many poles is going to take years - you can't expect to make more than 20 thefts/purchases per day or sell to more than 5-6 customers for a single item only adventurers use.


    4) This isn't the modern era of machine tools - everything is handcrafted. By the rules, you can only expect to finish 5-10 very simple items (such as wooden spoons) per day, or a single simple item such as a 10' pole. By realistic crafting, you might take even longer.


    5) Gaining a level requires defeating around 13 challenges, ranging from CR-2 to CR+5 based on the encounter tables. You sure you want to risk injury and/or death a dozen times over for that increase in power? Especially without appropriate challenges ensured by a DM?
    Having fought an enraged cat when helping my mother the vet, I gotta tell you; fighting inappropriate encounters such as a 16-pound cat that insists he doesn't need no stinky vaccine sucks big time.


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    Chimera

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Reality checks:

    3) 1.000 GP is twenty pounds of gold, or $40.000. It is also the equivalent of 20.000 ladders, or 2.000 10' poles. Just finding that many ladders or selling that many poles is going to take years - you can't expect to make more than 20 thefts/purchases per day or sell to more than 5-6 customers for a single item only adventurers use.
    20 pounds of gold would be closer to $400,000 not $40,000
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    1)
    That story fails in both the Potterverse and Science components - big time. It's more wish-fulfilment than anything else. Wouldn't you want not only to enter a world of magic - but also one who proves your every preconception and where you're the only one who understands how magic works, even better than centuries-old wizards?
    And I thought I was the only person around here that thought that story was only a few steps up from traditional Mary Sue fanworks.

    I'm sure that there are plenty of ways the Muggle world could change the Wizarding world of HP, but that fic isn't it.

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by mvpmack View Post
    And I thought I was the only person around here that thought that story was only a few steps up from traditional Mary Sue fanworks.

    I'm sure that there are plenty of ways the Muggle world could change the Wizarding world of HP, but that fic isn't it.
    The fic isn't about how the muggle world would change Rowling's HP world (such a misconception would tend to create a negative opinion regardless of whether that opinion was accurate or not). So instead I will comment on the topic at hand.


    I don't think we should assume that people in a D&D world choose their class advancement with anywhere enough ease that it would take for us to assume our own class advancement. I remain convinced that it is more plausible to find and assist and existent caster than it is to claim we would be a caster.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    The one thing a character from our world would have major advantage over people in the DnD world is knowledge of DnD. Seriously, just how many DnD trivia require astronomical knowledge checks in-game but every player can easily learn by reading the books?


    Just writing and selling our knowledge of DnD cosmology would be a major source of income in interested circles.


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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    And patenting simple modern inventions.

    Tools - wrenches, pliers, screws/screwdrivers
    A simple spring/clamps/suspension
    Simple improvements to fire arms like the cartridge
    Buttons/zippers/Velcro
    Sandwiches
    Elevators
    Modern irrigation techniques
    Patent?

    Even if patent law exists at all, you'll probably find that only members in good standing of the guild of engineers would have anything even vaguely resembling a right to patent things, and even then, that right would only extend to the reach of that guild. The idea of government-enforced intellectual property laws isn't a thing in most fantasy settings.

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Patent?

    Even if patent law exists at all, you'll probably find that only members in good standing of the guild of engineers would have anything even vaguely resembling a right to patent things, and even then, that right would only extend to the reach of that guild. The idea of government-enforced intellectual property laws isn't a thing in most fantasy settings.
    In a game setting maybe but we're talking about a real world situation so it's perfectly reasonable to think individual kingdoms at least would have them. Patents in our world go back over 500 years so its it like they're a modern invention either.

    As for the engineer guild, you don't think they'd be bending over backwards to recruit someone who has so many amazing inventions? You'd have your pick of which craftsmans guild you'd want to join, though it'd probably be easier and way more profitable to start your own.
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Become a wizard, optimize the hell out of it, maybe make a (well-written) deal with a devil, proceed to control the world, become a LE Lich, and eventually challenge Vecna.
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by kellbyb View Post
    I don't believe that an actual magical world would have a DM-like figure controlling it.
    Or at the very least, a lot more lenient a DM than the one controlling our world.

    Quote Originally Posted by kellbyb View Post
    Because of this, I would train in spellcraft start developing as many custom spells as I can in the search of finding weak spells that would normally never exist for the sake of game balance but would totally work in an actual, logical setting.
    Interesting.
    Examples?
    My latest homebrew: Majokko base class and Spellcaster Dilettante feats for D&D 3.5 and Races as Classes for PTU.

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Interesting.
    Examples?
    It's too late to give you a good list now, but I'll try to think about it.

    3.0 haste comes to mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    The clone Rudisplorker, doppelganger of Threadnaught.

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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    1) "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu" (Or just abuse BoVD sacrifice rules)
    2) Wish for a Ring of Three Wishes
    3) Go to Step 2
    4) ???
    5) Take over the world!

    Alternatively,

    1) Artificer
    2) Traps!
    3) More traps!
    4) Seriously, this is way too many traps!
    5) Probably destroy the world in a grey goo scenario
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    We would do pretty well.

    We all have a huge advantage over people in fantasy books, or even just the past. We have exposure. As Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "One's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions." Now I had to google to see who said that, but the text of the quote I remembered on my own; and more importantly, the idea of it you already heard of.

    You don't have to understand the scientific method. The mere knowledge that such a thing can exist is a huge step forward. You have watched TV since you were old enough to walk. You have been exposed to more ideas, situations, cultures, technologies, and philosophies than most ancient geniuses had in their lifetimes. You already know that the stars are suns, like ours; that the natural force that keeps them in orbit is the same thing that makes apples fall; that lightspeed cannot normally be exceeded; but even more importantly, you know that democracy is possible, money doesn't have to be backed by gold, women are essentially equal to men, and so on. The mere knowledge that the rich are not genetically superior to the poor is so explosive it would have gotten you killed a few hundred years ago.

    When it comes to combat, you may already know that gunpowder is not that hard to make and that spinning the bullet (rifling) makes it more accurate. Those two ideas alone end the reign of knights. Even D&D knights, who can take several longsword blows before dying - the power of even a moderately advanced black-powder design (say the Civil War era Sharps .50) will drop a freaking buffalo in one shot. Go look up how many hit die a buffalo has. And guns do it at longer ranges than magic; and more to the point, you've seen a WWII movie. You know how combat is supposed to look with guns and artillery and flying strike forces.

    It's not just the technological knowledge you need. You can't join a Celtic tribe and start a factory. You need cultural knowledge; you need to know how to share the rewards and labor of the factory in a way that will make everyone buy into it. And you have that knowledge, even if you don't know it, because you've seen it done your whole life.

    You have the accumulated wealth of 7,000,000,000 people's stories and 400 years of the Scientific Revolution. The stuff you learned from Bill Nye the Science Guy shows would make Issac Newton green with envy. Yes, translating it into actual practice would be hard; but the fact is you have Knowledge: Technological Culture at 10 skill ranks. And it's a class exclusive skill.

    If this is a topic that interests you, and you find my take on it intriguing, then you might enjoy a new fantasy series called "Sword of the Bright Lady." Which is about a mechanical engineer who goes to a world with magic, and classes, and levels. There's a link in my sig.


    (Edit: you might also want to check out Joel Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series)
    Last edited by Yahzi; 2015-02-01 at 02:00 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    I'd say that most people would be slow-starters in such an environment. Here's the thing - the magic systems we're so used to manipulating come with huge sets of information that is given directly to us as players as 'the ground truth of the world'. We know that 5ft squares are an important concept, the how-and-why of stats versus derived quantities versus spell slots, the idea of damage, saves, status effects, etc. And these aren't just abstractions for dealing with something complex; when we have the sort of TO discussion which leads to Tippyverse, the standard of the discussion is to take those things as absolutely and literally true. Part of the advantage we have is that the universe of any tabletop game has to be something which is well-suited to being evaluated by the brains of the humans at the table.

    On the other hand, any sort of system that underlies a functioning universe is simultaneously not constrained by that, and also is likely to be constrained by a ton of other things which in a tabletop game we can ignore because the humans at the table smooth over the inconsistencies. On top of that, many of the rules of tabletop games are aimed towards making gameplay fun, making the players happy, etc. If I say e.g. "even a microgram of this substance kills you on skin contact with no defense" most people here would have the intuition: that isn't how D&D 3.5 works, I don't think thats a real thing! It feels unfair or broken in a gameplay sense, but a universe which is not a game has no particular bias towards 'fairness' or 'balance' (through the anthropic principle you can maybe make an argument for macroscale stability, but not for balance or fairness)

    So, if you took a career scientist with no exposure to D&D or fantasy literature and put them in a magical world, they'd probably have a bit of an advantage due to having a novel view on things and so having a chance to see things that others have missed (thats not to say that a rational approach would always help them if, e.g., magic is of the sort that is granted as favors to people by irrational entities rather than a built-in law of the universe). But if you took a similar scientist but one who has exposure to D&D and fantasy literature biases and put them in a magical world, I think it's likely that they'd come in with a bunch of assumptions that would on average be much more likely to hinder them than to help them.

    I see this a lot with players who are very experienced with one system going to another, especially if there are superficial similarities. They import assumptions from the systems they are familiar with, and often that can make them inattentive and less flexible when things differ. Even in the above post for example, there's the implicit assumption that 'my guns can drop a buffalo in one shot, so if I make guns in another world they will do so as well.' But there are rules for guns in D&D, and they can't drop a buffalo in one shot. And that's just going to D&D, not some other universe with its own not-ours, not-D&D laws.
    Last edited by NichG; 2015-02-01 at 02:54 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    But there are rules for guns in D&D, and they can't drop a buffalo in one shot.
    Actually, hunting is impossible in D&D, because no missile weapon kills a deer in one shot. A heavy crossbow does 1d10; a deer has on average 15 hps. So either the D&D world has radically different physics, or all hunters are really Thieves who can sneak to within 30 ft. I vote for the other out, which is hunting has to be modeled somehow and any weapon that kills a 5HD animal can kill a 5HD human.

    That said, technology does one thing magic doesn't do: scale. If you manage to make a single gun, you can make a hundred. It's just time, effort, and materials. The same is not true of magic items, whose manufacture consumes something intangible (in D&D it's XP but in every fantasy system it's something; there's a reason no fantasy worlds have assembly line magic item production).

    Your comments about bad assumptions are good, and I agree they would be slow to start (and might well die before they got their head around the new rules), but I think people tend to overlook just how much social technology we all have incorporated into our mental frameworks.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    In a game setting maybe but we're talking about a real world situation
    Aaand I'm confused. Are we in a game world, or a real world that somehow resembles DnD?

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
    Actually, hunting is impossible in D&D, because no missile weapon kills a deer in one shot. A heavy crossbow does 1d10; a deer has on average 15 hps. So either the D&D world has radically different physics, or all hunters are really Thieves who can sneak to within 30 ft. I vote for the other out, which is hunting has to be modeled somehow and any weapon that kills a 5HD animal can kill a 5HD human.
    Right, you're making a conclusion based on 'what sounds reasonable'. But if we're talking about some sort of universe derived from a different underlying physics, it doesn't really care about what you as a human feel is reasonable. If biochemistry were a little less efficient, it might very well be that hunting and eating other animals would be impossible to beat break-even above some scale without technological intervention (e.g. you'd be using the animal meat to harvest energy from a cooking fire, rather than using the meat itself for energy). Things like that make the world very different from our world, but they aren't excluded either.

    In a D&D universe, perhaps everything is so filled with 'positive energy' that hunting as we know it actually is simply impossible. You can't one-shot an animal with a weapon, so you absolutely must use a snare that holds it in place before you can kill it.

    That said, technology does one thing magic doesn't do: scale. If you manage to make a single gun, you can make a hundred. It's just time, effort, and materials. The same is not true of magic items, whose manufacture consumes something intangible (in D&D it's XP but in every fantasy system it's something; there's a reason no fantasy worlds have assembly line magic item production).
    Actually, I can think of quite a few settings with assembly-line magic item production. Harry Potter is one of them, for example - when you talk about specific 'models' of brooms, society-scale transport networks, etc, then that sounds like a form of mass production to me. In D&D, you have Eberron and Faerun. Going more obscure, in Death Gate Cycle there's all sorts of magi-tech at various scales, and there aren't really any material constraints on it - the Patryn and Sartan can just slap a rune down on anything and make very complex magitech; its like not needing circuit fabrication plants and CAD to make integrated circuits, just your fingertip. In Amber, the idea of even needing to produce something is silly - if you can define it, you can just find a universe where someone else has produced it for you. Of course, if you aren't an Amberite or denizen of the Courts of Chaos you're basically out of luck in terms of having any impact on the setting whatsoever. Black Company is sort of sitting on the threshold. There you get a small number of hyper-powerful individuals who are doing the mass production and disbursement of magic items, to the extent where a single powerful mage can direct 99% of the labor and do the last critical 1% themselves. For example, the Lady personally supplies an entire army with the equivalent of miniaturized rocket-launchers over the course of a year or so. On the other hand, the flying carpets are explained to be extremely costly to create, so the setting has both ends of that spectrum. Xanth, to give an example from even further from D&D-ish roots, doesn't have assembly-line magic but it has extremely common and consistent magical nature - instead of making magic items, people can (and do) farm them.

    Your comments about bad assumptions are good, and I agree they would be slow to start (and might well die before they got their head around the new rules), but I think people tend to overlook just how much social technology we all have incorporated into our mental frameworks.
    I think its an interesting question to ask what the timescale of social technology nucleation would be, if it were introduced in another system. The systems that were used historically weren't pointless - there were particular constraints and situations which made them local optima for that time period. You can maybe make more efficient set-ups, but you have to get over the energy required to re-arrange enough of the existing society so that the new thing isn't just horrible. For example, a feudal government with inheritance is more unstable on long timescales because the new king might be an idiot or whatever, but if the current king is good then it's going to take a few decades for the benefit of something more meritocratic to really become obvious. Before then, saying 'hey, you should give your power up to the people!' to the king is just not going to work very well.

    So it's not just about having the better ideas, its also about knowing how to manipulate the situation into one that really shows the advantage of those ideas to the extent that they catch on. And getting into a position where you can exert that influence. And the modern skills we have for doing that can actually work against us in the context of a different culture, which is structured to have a different kind of internal advancement. For example, imagine if you're thrown into a fantasy China where the worth of a scholar was measured by their ability to memorize and quote from historical literature (which isn't an uncommon trope).

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: What would happen if one of us actually got into a world with magic?

    You already know that the stars are suns, like ours;
    This is not always true in a DnD world. Also, it's largely irrelevant, unless you're a wizard with either Gate or Interplanetary Teleport spells - in which case going to other solar systems takes all of twenty seconds.

    that the natural force that keeps them in orbit is the same thing that makes apples fall
    DnD casters know of gravity just fine. They've even learned to manipulate it.

    that lightspeed cannot normally be exceeded;
    Irrelevant. Modern engineering of an entire nation still needs years and hundreds of billions of dollars to send someone to the moon. A single spellcaster of middle level can do so in only a few minutes of personal effort - or take a few hours to build a spaceship to take other people there that is much faster than anything we have currently.

    you know that democracy is possible
    No it isn't. In no government anywhere on the planet do the people take decisions of state or vote upon laws. They vote upon representatives - but the pool those representatives come from is effectively controlled by the rich and powerful. And the accountability of those representatives is practically nonexistent, since the only way the public can "punish" them for anything they do against it is not to elect them in the following term.

    money doesn't have to be backed by gold
    Yes it does. If it isn't backed by intrinsic value, spellcasters can copy it, conjure it or otherwise fabricate it in vast amounts. And if you have banks and ATM, you're just begging someone to magically persuade the bank workers to do what he says, or animate the ATM and have it give up all money it contains.

    women are essentially equal to men
    The DnD world is a place where women can and do fight eldritch horrors and dragons, they become clerics and wizards and empresses. Our world is a place where women rarely ever see the frontlines of even moderately dangerous battlegrounds, where they have secondary roles at best in most major religions, where they make up less than 20% of well-known scientists and less than 5% of successful high-level politicians.


    The mere knowledge that the rich are not genetically superior to the poor
    But they are! Rich people, at the cost of 25.000 gp per improvement, can directly increase their ability scores with inherent bonuses. They can pay major sums to an elf so their children will be born with a lifespan three times that of the average human, or planar-bind an outsider and have their children be born with the half-celestial template and thus even longer lifespans and far superior physical and mental ability scores.



    will drop a freaking buffalo in one shot.
    Buffalo has AC 13 (touch 9) and 37 HP. An 8th level DnD knight has 90 HP and AC 30 (touch 20). If you can hit a charging buffalo 19 times out of 20, you'll only be hitting the knight 2 times out of 20. So the knight will be 30 times harder to kill than a buffalo - assuming he doesn't have any sort of protection vs firearms.

    You know how combat is supposed to look with guns and artillery and flying strike forces.
    About as ugly as with created undead and summoned demons. Except demons can teleport up to your face and have a bazillion immunities and all it takes is a few seconds of effort to summon one with a spell, whereas it takes millions of dollars and hundreds of man-hours to build a tank, let alone drive and fuel it.


    If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.

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