Let's Make This [Digimon RP] You never know till you've tried

[vasharanpaladin]

Here' the problem. Biomerging is automatically a Mega Level effect.

And you're ignoring what I'm saying just to prove me wrong.

Here's how it works. Standard Digivolution works one way. Jogress Evolution works another way. And Biomerge works a third way. There are no other sets of rules for Digivolution, it will ALWAYS call on one of these object classes.

If, as you say, Biomerge only allows for evolution into the Ultimate form, there is no problem with having Hybrid Evolution call on it. Why?

Because HybridEvolve.EXE creates an exception. Hybrid Evolution involves a human becoming a Digimon and thus follows the rules for Biomerging. Biomerging requires you to join with a flesh-and-blood partner Digimon to become an Ultimate Digimon? HybridEvolve.EXE says no, you're Biomerging with MY requirements. Takato can't use Biomerge.EXE without the requirement of a level minimum-for-Ultimate-rank Digimon that has access to its Perfect form; Takuya can use HybridEvolve.EXE with a disembodied AncientGreymon from the get-go, the only other hotfix being that he will be locked to the same power ranking as the rest of the party. So yes, he Biomerges with the Spirit of Fire and becomes Flamon, if he's not at a high enough level for Agnimon.

Are you seeing the problem here? When you are translating a system to the tabletop, you must be prepared to make concessions. In this case, no, Takuya never became Flamon voluntarily, nor did he do it more than once, nor did he have to become Flamon before becoming Agnimon. And it didn't matter, because 1) he was in a TV show, where trivial things like "party balance" is moot because there's only one person controlling all the characters, and 2) he was in a party comprised of nothing but the same archetype.

If this archetype is to be included in a tabletop game where other archetypes may be present, it must be brought to heel at the same level. If that means it must be forced to follow the same rules as everyone else, if that means Takuya must Hybrid Evolve to Flamon at the start of the game, then it will be so.

[Rakaydos]

Digimodify wouldn't be Jogress or Biomerge, and as it's not a form of Evolution, t wouldn't use the same mechanics

Why not? Why much evolution mechanics be "special?"

[Rakaydos]

And you're ignoring what I'm saying just to prove me wrong.

Here's how it works. Standard Digivolution works one way. Jogress Evolution works another way. And Biomerge works a third way. There are no other sets of rules for Digivolution, it will ALWAYS call on one of these object classes.

If, as you say, Biomerge only allows for evolution into the Ultimate form, there is no problem with having Hybrid Evolution call on it. Why?

Because HybridEvolve.EXE creates an exception. Hybrid Evolution involves a human becoming a Digimon and thus follows the rules for Biomerging. Biomerging requires you to join with a flesh-and-blood partner Digimon to become an Ultimate Digimon? HybridEvolve.EXE says no, you're Biomerging with MY requirements. Takato can't use Biomerge.EXE without the requirement of a level minimum-for-Ultimate-rank Digimon that has access to its Perfect form; Takuya can use HybridEvolve.EXE with a disembodied AncientGreymon from the get-go, the only other hotfix being that he will be locked to the same power ranking as the rest of the party. So yes, he Biomerges with the Spirit of Fire and becomes Flamon, if he's not at a high enough level for Agnimon.

Are you seeing the problem here? When you are translating a system to the tabletop, you must be prepared to make concessions. In this case, no, Takuya never became Flamon voluntarily, nor did he do it more than once, nor did he have to become Flamon before becoming Agnimon. And it didn't matter, because 1) he was in a TV show, where trivial things like "party balance" is moot because there's only one person controlling all the characters, and 2) he was in a party comprised of nothing but the same archetype.

If this archetype is to be included in a tabletop game where other archetypes may be present, it must be brought to heel at the same level. If that means it must be forced to follow the same rules as everyone else, if that means Takuya must Hybrid Evolve to Flamon at the start of the game, then it will be so.

I'd actually take a step back, and have Biomerge, Hybrid Evolve, AND Jogress all call on a single "Merge Data" mechanic, and layer each one's special rules on top of it.

[Almarck]

I'd actually take a step back, and have Biomerge, Hybrid Evolve, AND Jogress all call on a single "Merge Data" mechanic, and layer each one's special rules on top of it.

That might be the simplest manner. We could also add in the rules for "poaching" data from slain digimon into the frame work while we're at it.

So we'd have standard, linear evolution and mode changes, with the caveat that it's all within a single digimon that's moving in whatever which way.

Then we'd have "comboing" which covers every other form of evolution where outside data is added to the base.

[Rater202]

You're ignoring Bio-hybrids, who have forms that are not related to each other, and it makes significantly more sense for Bio-Merging to be an Exception to the normal Ultimate Level mechanics that it does to twist Hybrid Digimon uinto something that fits the biomerge mold.

It makes significantly more sense, for the splat that has "Human turns into Digimon" as it's shtick and that does not follow the normal level system to have it's own unique evolution mechanic that it does for the splat that follows the normal evolution path and normal levels up until you get to the ultimate level where you do it different.

Biomerge should be the exception to the normal Digivolution Rules.

Spirit Evolution and Bi-Hybrid Digivolution should have their own separate system from those rules.

Folding Hybrid Digimon and Bio-Hybrids into the Biomerge rules makes no sense from a lore perspective or from the perspective of looking at it from the Archetypes.

so, the Things we need hard rules for are "Normal Digivolution, Jogress Digivolution, Armor Forms for the Digimental Wielders and Bio-Hybrids, and a "Human turns into Digimon" system form spirit Wielders and Bio-Hybrids.


No, no, no, no, we can't fold Humans tuning into Digimon, Human combine with Digimon, and Two Digiumon combine into the same system, especially when one of those is restricted toa single achetype and one of them is restricted to a single progression path of a single archetype, while the third is a universal thing.

A Human combining with a Digimon should be mechanically diferant from two digimon combining, and since its someitnh only one "class" can do, it can be an exception.

Since humans becoming a Digimon is the main stcik of the "Merger Achetype" with two diferant progression paths that do so in slightly diferant ways, it should have it;s own mechanic.

[vasharanpaladin]

I'd actually take a step back, and have Biomerge, Hybrid Evolve, AND Jogress all call on a single "Merge Data" mechanic, and layer each one's special rules on top of it.

...Well, now, that's even better. But the problem is that the Tamer is not a Digimon, so having Biomerge that similar to a Jogress would be a bit... problematic, wouldn't it?

In my mind, at least, the difference was that Jogress took two players' Digimon and fused them together into one, that would get the power boost inherent to moving up a rank (less raw power than now getting to act twice per round), balanced out by it being easier to bring down one target than two (DigiXros extension allowing for a player to Jogress exclusively his own Digimon for a straight power boost, but not getting an extra turn of actions due to not having codominant partners).

While Biomerge gives a straight power boost and has the dual identity of Human and Digimon if such tags are called on by other effects, getting to act on both the Tamer round (purely mental) and the Digimon round (actual fighting). Hybrid Evolution, then, would cut out the second turn in exchange for enabling the Biomerge at all ranks (because the "Digimon" doesn't actually exist in this case; writing down "Flamon" in your partner area would be a placeholder).

...And before anything is said, yes, I have Digimentals calling on Standard rules for this. My conceit to complexity is that I vastly prefer groups of three...

[Rakaydos]

No, no, no, no, we can't fold Humans tuning into Digimon, Human combine with Digimon, and Two Digiumon combine into the same system, especially when one of those is restricted toa single achetype and one of them is restricted to a single progression path of a single archetype, while the third is a universal thing.

A Human combining with a Digimon should be mechanically diferant from two digimon combining, and since its someitnh only one "class" can do, it can be an exception.

Since humans becoming a Digimon is the main stcik of the "Merger Achetype" with two diferant progression paths that do so in slightly diferant ways, it should have it;s own mechanic.

Again, why? Just because Wizard and cleric are different architypes, doesnt mean they can both use spells. Jst because a paladin hits things with a sword, doesnt mean he cant also use spells.

[vasharanpaladin]

You're ignoring Bio-hybrids, who have forms that are not related to each other, and it makes significantly more sense for Bio-Merging to be an Exception to the normal Ultimate Level mechanics that it does to twist Hybrid Digimon uinto something that fits the biomerge mold.

It makes significantly more sense, for the splat that has "Human turns into Digimon" as it's shtick and that does not follow the normal level system to have it's own unique evolution mechanic that it does for the splat that follows the normal evolution path and normal levels up until you get to the ultimate level where you do it different.

Biomerge should be the exception to the normal Digivolution Rules.

Spirit Evolution and Bi-Hybrid Digivolution should have their own separate system from those rules.

Folding Hybrid Digimon and Bio-Hybrids into the Biomerge rules makes no sense from a lore perspective or from the perspective of looking at it from the Archetypes.

so, the Things we need hard rules for are "Normal Digivolution, Jogress Digivolution, Armor Forms for the Digimental Wielders and Bio-Hybrids, and a "Human turns into Digimon" system form spirit Wielders and Bio-Hybrids.

...Further clarification, then.

If you're so hung up on the labels, try this: We need rules for Digimon-to-Digimon evolution, for Digimon-plus-Digimon evolution, and for Human-to-Digimon evolution. Regardless of what you say, the bottom line is that every form of Digivolution calls on one of these three methods.

[Rater202]

It makes no sense from a lore perspective. That's why.

You're comparing a Wizard and Cleric, when it's really a Psion and a Synthesist.

The Synthesist augmenting his body is not the same as the Spion manifesting the power to Fuse his body with an others, and the Bio-Hybrid Digivolving into BioRaidramon is not the same and the Tamer and his Black agumon Biomerging into BlackWarGreymon, and neither is anything like WarGreymon and Metalgarurumon Merging into Omegamon

The Biomerge should be the Exception to the normal Digivolution rules.

The Entire other thing that has very little in common with normal digivolution and might not even follow the same level system should not be the exception to a system that is itself an exception to the normal system, it should be it's own system.

And Bioimaging and Jogress should not be the same system because Biomerging is only Ultimate while jogress is "One level higher" and becuase humans will have talents that digimon do not, and hybrid/bio-hybrid/bio-merged digimon will have both by their nature, while jogress digimon will have only digimon talents.

you guys are taking something that is complex and are making it overly simple at the cost of raping the lore. If it's to be a Digimon game, then it can't diverge from Digimon's lore unless it's for a good reason and oversimplification is not a good enough reason.

[Rakaydos]

There's a reason Invokers, Warlocks, Warblades, Psions, and Binders were not in PHB1. Unified mechanics are more important. If you cant make your special digvolution form work with rules a new player can understand, it shoud probably wait for a splatbook.

With that thought, how about we focus entirely on basic digivolution to start with, get a functional early-01 based system going, before we even think about fancy high level subsystems.

[Rater202]

...Further clarification, then.

If you're so hung up on the labels, try this: We need rules for Digimon-to-Digimon evolution, for Digimon-plus-Digimon evolution, and for Human-to-Digimon evolution. Regardless of what you say, the bottom line is that every form of Digivolution calls on one of these three methods.

This is correct.

The "Human merges with digimon" however, should not, in fact, follow the same rules as the Human to Digimon Evolution rules, however, becuase the Digimon will be in meat space and not be one or more nonsentient blobs of data, and because that Digimon will be following the normal evolution mechanic up untill that point.

It makes signifigantly more sense for Biomerging to be an exception to the normal digivolution rules than it does for Spirit Evolution and Bio-Hybrid Digivolution, which is one guy assumigng a new form by mergiing with data t assume any level form(or an equivalent) to be an exception to the "Digimon and human, sperate fully sentient entities, combining to fomr a mega level" rule, and that does not need it's own system.

[Shadowz1797]

Really wish I had a computer.

Oh well xD

[vasharanpaladin]

This is correct.

The "Human merges with digimon" however, should not, in fact, follow the same rules as the Human to Digimon Evolution rules, however, becuase the Digimon will be in meat space and not be one or more nonsentient blobs of data, and because that Digimon will be following the normal evolution mechanic up untill that point.

It makes signifigantly more sense for Biomerging to be an exception to the normal digivolution rules than it does for Spirit Evolution and Bio-Hybrid Digivolution, which is one guy assumigng a new form by mergiing with data t assume any level form(or an equivalent) to be an exception to the "Digimon and human, sperate fully sentient entities, combining to fomr a mega level" rule, and that does not need it's own system.

In that case, I'm prepared to ignore the existence of Biomerge evolution entirely (at least as used in Tamers) in favor of getting everything else squared away. I will, however, point out that Hybrid Evolution is an expanded take on the concept, allowing for a "Biomerge" across all ranks.

That said, for the sake of quelling this before it heats up again (apologies if I said something out of turn, by the by), I'll agree with Rakaydos, in that we should focus on Standard Digivolution for now...

[Rakaydos]

Can someone more familiar with Mutants and Masterminds ell me- is there any ability already in the system for a "super sayan" mechanic, where they become temporarally more powerful/higher PL-equvilant, with or without drawbacks?

No sence reinventing the wheel, after all.

[Shadowz1797]

Yep everybody just remember we're need to be constructive and not destructive. Ok, as for standard evolution:
Things I believe were in agreement on:
-takes up an action/turn to digivolve
-stat booster
-possibly runs in tandem with a tamer entity (spirit) almost like a mana bar in an rpg.

[Rater202]

If we drop biomerge ntirly, then something needs to take it's place in the Tamers sub Archtype

[Rakaydos]

If we drop biomerge ntirly, then something needs to take it's place in the Tamers sub Archtype

That will matter when we GET to architypes. We're not there yet.
But might I suggest Digimodify instead? It was used for far more of Tamers than Biomerge ever was.

[vasharanpaladin]

If we drop biomerge ntirly, then something needs to take it's place in the Tamers sub Archtype

Temporary. Since we can't agree on where it fits in the mechanics now, we'll make the mechanics first and fit it in later.

[Oazard]

This is correct.

The "Human merges with digimon" however, should not, in fact, follow the same rules as the Human to Digimon Evolution rules, however, becuase the Digimon will be in meat space and not be one or more nonsentient blobs of data, and because that Digimon will be following the normal evolution mechanic up untill that point.

It makes signifigantly more sense for Biomerging to be an exception to the normal digivolution rules than it does for Spirit Evolution and Bio-Hybrid Digivolution, which is one guy assumigng a new form by mergiing with data t assume any level form(or an equivalent) to be an exception to the "Digimon and human, sperate fully sentient entities, combining to fomr a mega level" rule, and that does not need it's own system.

Does not the Tamer Archetype would simply use the "Digimon to Digimon" for digivolution and then the "Human to Digimon" to reach the Mega level? (With the prerequisite to be near your digimon partner) Does the Digimon Partner still exists in the new Digimon or the Tamer completely overwrites the Digimon's personality? (I don't know very much about the Tamers season)

[vasharanpaladin]

Does not the Tamer Archetype would simply use the "Digimon to Digimon" for digivolution and then the "Human to Digimon" to reach the Mega level? (With the prerequisite to be near your digimon partner) Does the Digimon Partner still exists in the new Digimon or the Tamer completely overwrites the Digimon's personality? (I don't know very much about the Tamers season)

Boiled down, it's essentially a Human + Digimon Jogress. The resulting Digimon is both itself and its Tamer, at least in the dub.

[Shadowz1797]

They exist in unison, as seen. With the meshing of their voices when they speak

[Rakaydos]

Does not the Tamer Archetype would simply use the "Digimon to Digimon" for digivolution and then the "Human to Digimon" to reach the Mega level? (With the prerequisite to be near your digimon partner) Does the Digimon Partner still exists in the new Digimon or the Tamer completely overwrites the Digimon's personality? (I don't know very much about the Tamers season)

In tamers, Biomerge was a grand-finale super mode where tamer and digimon whould have conversations with each other while merged. it was implied the two were acting in concert, something that took immence levels of trust between the two.


I say the tamers subtype should focus on the digimodify, as it was by far the more common mechanic of the series.

[Shadowz1797]

I say the tamers subtype should focus on the digimodify, as it was by far the more common mechanic of the series.

I agree. Also I find it a lot more interesting than bio merging haha

[vasharanpaladin]

I say the tamers subtype should focus on the digimodify, as it was by far the more common mechanic of the series.

That reminds me, how would we declare archetypes, anyway? Related to your choice of Digivice, since they all share the same functions other than whatever the current season's hotness is? But that wouldn't work, I don't think the Bio-Hybrids had anything like a D-Tect...

[Blackhawk748]

Can someone more familiar with Mutants and Masterminds ell me- is there any ability already in the system for a "super sayan" mechanic, where they become temporarally more powerful/higher PL-equvilant, with or without drawbacks?

No sence reinventing the wheel, after all.

Ill need to dig a bit but im pretty sure they have one.

Edit: Yup its called boost and its in 2ed (im pilfering stuff from 2nd and 3rd Ed)

[Rakaydos]

Ill need to dig a bit but im pretty sure they have one.

Edit: Yup its called boost and its in 2ed (im pilfering stuff from 2nd and 3rd Ed)

Hmm. I've heard Boost was...rather broken in 2nd, but if we codify exactly how it can be used (+x for rookies, +y for adults, +z for ulti, ect) and make it a stable of the system (digivolution) then it shouldn be as much of a problem.

[Rater202]

That reminds me, how would we declare archetypes, anyway? Related to your choice of Digivice, since they all share the same functions other than whatever the current season's hotness is? But that wouldn't work, I don't think the Bio-Hybrids had anything like a D-Tect...

With what I suggested, Archetypes follow a general theme and sub progressions are specifically how you accomplish that theme, and that includes what kind of Digivice you have

The "Chosen Child" Archetype, for example, covers people who are aprtnered with a Digimon becuase it's their destiny to do so. The "Crest Bearer" progression path has the Adventure Digivice, a Crest Power, and may or may not have a tag and/or crest to focus that crest power, while the Digimental Bearer Sup Progression has a D3 and D-Terminal. The Crest Bearer is your bare bones basics "class" in that most of it's talents are passive "make your digimon stronger" powers and has a fast evolution, while the Digimental Bearer has more versatility due to having access to armor digivolution. at th cost of slower progress through evolution forms

THe "Seeker" archetype I suggested, how ever, covers people who saught out a digimon partner or created one of their own, or were saught out by their digimon. the "Tamer" progression has a D-Arc and modify cards, while the "Agent" has the Datasquad Digivice, Digisoul, and the option to use Burst Mode

The "Merger"(better name needed) covers people who become combinations of human and digimon. Spirit Wieders have a D-Tector and 1-ten spirits to combine with, while Bio-Hybrids have a had a procedure preformd upon the to become literal Human Digimon hybrids, with Digimon Data bonded to and encoded in their DNA, with a Cybernetic Digivice used to assume their Digimon forms.

[vasharanpaladin]

...So I ended up thinking in computer terms for a bit. I ended up thinking that talents should be called "extensions."

Name.EXT (replace with .EXE for activated abilities or .PART for passive ones)
IF (prerequisites)
THEN (benefit for having this extension)
ELSE (optional; reminder text of normal rules if this extension creates an exception to them)

Seems simple enough to me, at any rate? An actual entry might look like this:

Evolve.EXE
IF Digimon level is 5 or higher
THEN Digimon may Standard Digivolve to the next rank as a standard action.

GreatFortitude.PART
IF Digimon Stamina is 3 or higher, OR Digimon has Data attribute
THEN Digimon gains +1 Stamina.

*shrug* I kinda like the nod to programming and data structures, but then I would...

[Blackhawk748]

Hmm. I've heard Boost was...rather broken in 2nd, but if we codify exactly how it can be used (+x for rookies, +y for adults, +z for ulti, ect) and make it a stable of the system (digivolution) then it shouldn be as much of a problem.

It was, but only if you mixed the Slow Fade extra and then paid extra to have it buff all your stats at once. So you'd wind up with a fairly insane bonus for the whole scene. This really only worked if you made it your primary power.

Now we shouldnt have this problem as this wont be their primary power, and they cant buy more ranks as its a Trait they purchase later, as in it has fixed stats when they get it and it doesnt increase from there.

Honestly can rookies even use Burst mode?

...So I ended up thinking in computer terms for a bit. I ended up thinking that talents should be called "extensions."

Name.EXT (replace with .EXE for activated abilities or .PART for passive ones)
IF (prerequisites)
THEN (benefit for having this extension)
ELSE (optional; reminder text of normal rules if this extension creates an exception to them)

Seems simple enough to me, at any rate? An actual entry might look like this:

Evolve.EXE
IF Digimon level is 5 or higher
THEN Digimon may Standard Digivolve to the next rank as a standard action.

GreatFortitude.PART
IF Digimon Stamina is 3 or higher, OR Digimon has Data attribute
THEN Digimon gains +1 Stamina.

*shrug* I kinda like the nod to programming and data structures, but then I would...

Love it. I mean they are called Digital Monsters

[vasharanpaladin]

With what I suggested, Archetypes follow a general theme and sub progressions are specifically how you accomplish that theme, and that includes what kind of Digivice you have

The "Chosen Child" Archetype, for example, covers people who are aprtnered with a Digimon becuase it's their destiny to do so. The "Crest Bearer" progression path has the Adventure Digivice, a Crest Power, and may or may not have a tag and/or crest to focus that crest power, while the Digimental Bearer Sup Progression has a D3 and D-Terminal. The Crest Bearer is your bare bones basics "class" in that most of it's talents are passive "make your digimon stronger" powers and has a fast evolution, while the Digimental Bearer has more versatility due to having access to armor digivolution. at th cost of slower progress through evolution forms

THe "Seeker" archetype I suggested, how ever, covers people who saught out a digimon partner or created one of their own, or were saught out by their digimon. the "Tamer" progression has a D-Arc and modify cards, while the "Agent" has the Datasquad Digivice, Digisoul, and the option to use Burst Mode

The "Merger"(better name needed) covers people who become combinations of human and digimon. Spirit Wieders have a D-Tector and 1-ten spirits to combine with, while Bio-Hybrids have a had a procedure preformd upon the to become literal Human Digimon hybrids, with Digimon Data bonded to and encoded in their DNA, with a Cybernetic Digivice used to assume their Digimon forms.

Thank you. I still like "Bonder," by the way~ (or "Digimorph," Bio-Hybrids feel rather close to that particular quirk of fanfiction...)

I don't suppose the V-Tamer manga shows any archetypes too much different from any of these?